Was Jesus begotten or created?

Participant

You see liljon if Jesus is the Father, then God died.
Now if God died who resurrected God?
The bible said Jesus, the Son of God died, and was resurrected by his Father.

December 30, 2004 at 9:37 pm#5114

Participant

Cont. The bible also says God sent his only begotten Son into the world. It does not say He went Himself but that He sent the Son.
Why mention God has a Son of He doesn't but He exists alone and goes Himself?
Why say 'sent' if it was The Father alone going? For one to send another means there are two and the one sending has higher authority than the one sent.

December 30, 2004 at 10:15 pm#5115

Participant

Hi liljon
Eph 1. 17
” That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him”
Eph 2.14f “For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family on heaven and on earth derives it's name ..”
The Father is Father of the Son of God and the other sons of God in heaven, and the nature of even our families on earth derives from this fact. Him we worship.

January 3, 2005 at 7:01 pm#5118

Participant

Nick,

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So , in the light of this fact you have to go back to John 2.19 and try to understand it in the light of what DID happen, as I have already explained.
What should we do if we cannot grasp it's meaning? Reject the verse? Reject the chapter or perhaps the whole gospel of John? I think not. It would be better to put it back in the storehouse and wait for the Spirit who wrote it to expand our puny minds so we can understand it.

Your repeated demand that we agree with your view of Jesus and his Father shows that you have not yet understood the scripture about the vine WIT.
Jn 15f
” I AM the true vine and my Father is the vinegrower. He prunes away every barren branch but the fruitful ones he trims clean to increase their yield. You are clean already thanks to the word I have spoken to you.
LIVE ON IN me, as I do in you . No more than a branch can bear fruit of itself apart from the vine can you bear fruit apart from me.
I am the vine, you are the branches. He who LIVES IN me and I in him will produce abundantly but apart from me you can do nothing. A man who does not live in me is like a withered branch picked up to be thrown in the fire and burnt.
If you LIVE IN me and my words stay part of you, you may ask what you will -it will be done for you. My Father has been glorified in your bearing much fruit and becoming my disciples..”

So you admit that you don't understand John 2:19, even though the context seems to show it as a clear statement about “Jesus” raising himself from the dead? Yet, in order to explain your relationship to “Jesus”, you turn to another passage in John that is clearly metaphoric in nature, and has no direct explanation. How is it that you understand John 15 so well, when you don't know how to take John 2:19, in light of the direct explanation given in John 2:22?

Nick and T8,

Psalm 8:3 says the following:
“When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place”

Does that sound like a reference to an agent to you, or does it sound like something the Almighty did Himself? For example, if someone said, “George Bush, on his own two feet, invaded Iraq”, would you think that that person was referring to agents of George Bush or George Bush himself?

As for the deity of “Jesus”, observe the following passage:

Deuteronomy 13:
“1 'If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, 2and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, 'Let us go after other gods'–which you have not known–'and let us serve them,' 3you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the LORD your God is testing you to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him. 5But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has spoken in order to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of bondage, to entice you from the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall put away the evil from your midst.'”

This is a strong warning from the Almighty against anyone who would present His people with a new god that they have not heard of before. In fact, He says that anyone who would do such a thing should be put to death. I think it is safe to assume that no one hearing these words knew of any other god in heaven whom they were to serve. How then were the Israelites ever to believe in “Jesus”, (or “the Logos”), if he was a god from the beginning to be revealed to them at a later time. Would they not see “Jesus” as a test and reject him out of obedience to the true God? Or, was God simply setting them up for failure from their very foundations?

It is interesting to note that the “gods” in question aren't given any kind of description whatsoever. It doesn't say that they are evil gods, or gods that would by their very nature lead people away from Yahweh. It simply says gods that the people have not known. This sets up Yahweh as the only god they are to have – EVER!!!!

T8,

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I also teach the following:
There are many who have God's nature including Jesus and even the angels/sons of God (ben eloyhim). But there is only one God in identity, the Father. This one true God shares his nature and those who receive his nature can be called gods, sons or images.

John 10:34-35
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, “I said, “You are gods”'? (theos)
35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),

Psalm 82:6
6 “I said, 'You are “gods”; (eloyhim)
you are all sons of the Most High.'

It is intersting to note that the idea that we are all gods comes from the mysterious gospel of John. According to many translation notes, the psalm passage being quoted is in references to judges or rulers, and if you read the whole psalm it is clearly about men ruling unjustly, (i.e. it's about rulers). No other scripture confirms the idea that men are gods.

In any case, we know that when you say that Jesus is a god you mean that very differently then when you say that men are gods. You mean to say that Jesus, unlike men, existed with Yahweh before the world began, and in fact did the actual work of creation that resulted in man's existence. It is clear to me that you believe in two unique divine entities, one of whom is Yahweh, the most High God, and the other is Jesus, the Son God, to whom we owe our very existence, because he was the one who actually formed us out of the dust of the ground. Is that not a fair summation of what you believe?

January 3, 2005 at 8:21 pm#5119

Participant

Welcome back WIT,
Let me make one thing plain. I do not claim to understand every scripture-yet. All will be made clear when Jesus returns.
All I know is that there are certain principles that can be applied to scripture that help it reveal itself to us.
One of those it that if a scriptural fact is revealed at least twice it is true[the principle of witnesses] By this we know that Jesus was raised by his Father as that fact is shown many times where the verse in Jn 2.19 stands alone so needs deeper analysis.
Another essential tool is the principle of God's delegation. He lives in heaven and uses His sons and His servants to do all his work. If you do not grasp this tool then you will come across all kinds of confusion. You will see the feet of the Father standing on the Mt of Olives in Zech 14 and verses that say He created everything through the Son of God make no sense.
The other sons of God were shown in the OT yet Jesus is the only begotten Son and the firstborn Son. There is a conflict here unless we believe that Jesus was begotten in the beginning and sent from the Father into the world, as the word clearly reveals.
It causes people to have to reject gospels like John's if they cannot understand these things. They prefer to cut themselves away from the Body for the sake of satisfying their minds with human logic. The word is greater than us. We have to approach it with humility to learn from it rather than taking only the parts we can now grasp.
God is one. Jesus confirmed this . No other god can approach His glory. No other God is to be worshipped. Jesus did not come as a competitor to seek worship. He is a truly humble servant seeking only the will of his Father and drawing men to worship Him.
But Jesus showed us more about the Kingdom of heaven and his amazing personal glory in that Kingdom prior to his human birth. He is God's reflection above all except God Himself. His glory far exceeded that of any angel or man and he now is at the right hand of the Father.
These revelations about the Son of God upset and confused some of the jews who thought he claimed to be the Father. Surely these revelations should not still confuse us who have the Spirit as teacher? Surely we are not uninformed and misguided as they were? Surely we are not still saying what the Phariseess said about Jesus?

January 3, 2005 at 11:04 pm#5120

Participant

To WIT,

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 04 2005,14:01)

Does that sound like a reference to an agent to you, or does it sound like something the Almighty did Himself? For example, if someone said, “George Bush, on his own two feet, invaded Iraq”, would you think that that person was referring to agents of George Bush or George Bush himself?

What about those who bring the gospel to the unsaved. Is it not God who still saves? Yet God doesn't personally walk up to people and give them the gospel, rather it is a team effort. God uses people.

God uses likeness to create likeness. Even the DNA of a monkey is similar to a human and this leads some to believe that humans came from monkeys. But it really proves that God uses and reuses his code, like any good programmer does. So how does God create a flower? Well he may well use code from another flower he created. How does God speak and reveal himself to men? Through his son and others that he has delegated. The eternal God seems to make things in likeness, so it comes as no suprise to me that just as God saved us by his son that he also created us by his son.

The order is as follows: The head of the woman is man, the head of man is Christ and the head of Christ is God. If you weren't focussed on trying to find fault with me or Nick, you would see that this is simply and plainly what we teach.

This is clearly demonstrated in the first chapter of Revelation. The revelation came from God and was given to the son and then to the angel and to John who gave it to the churches.

God appears to do his will through others and I can understand that God created the worlds through his son, after all Christ is the vine that we grow from. But God is the one who tenders the vine.

I do not think that this is hard to understand.

January 3, 2005 at 11:23 pm#5121

Participant

To WIT,

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 04 2005,14:01)

gods can be a reference to those in authority. We are gods to the animals and the earth for God gave man that authority. But Christ is god to us as he has authority over us. But the one true God who has authority over all, even Christ, is the Father. He is God not only in nature and authority, but name too. He is God of the heavens and the earth and the God of Jesus.

The fact that Jesus existed as the Logos with the Father in the beginning is derived from the gospel of John not because Jesus is a god. Being a god is relative to what you are a god too. Being a god does not make one God over all things.

Similarly being an elder doesn't make one an elder over all. E.g. a 21 year old may well be an elder to a 16 year old, but that doesn't make that 21 year old an elder over the whole church.

I fail to understand why men seem to take words and cannot understand it in context, but give it some kind of universal meaning. We see this clearly with those who teach that Jesus is the Almighty God. They too fail to understand the context with which Christ is God or that we are gods. Then they try to accuse us of worshipping more than one God or accuse us of saying that there are 2 or more Almighties.

But then again it should come as no surprise as Jesus himself was quoted out of context often and the reaction of the world against him and his words should be no different to those that are of him.

January 4, 2005 at 6:20 pm#5125

liljon

Participant

God ressurected God. God can be in more than one place plus Christ didn't go into non existence

January 4, 2005 at 6:54 pm#5126

Participant

Hi liljon,
It sounds as though theologians are confusing you with their crude attempts at defining God. Their words are little use here. You will have to show us from scripture as that is where the truth is revealed.
As you say these words of God are precious stones- compared with the foolishness of human wisdom.

January 4, 2005 at 10:33 pm#5127

liljon

Participant

The Truth is found in
ISAIAH CHAPTER 40

1 Comfort, yes, comfort My people, says your God.

2 Speak, you priests, to the heart of Jerusalem; comfort her, for her humiliation is accomplished, her sin is put away; for she has received of the Lord's hand double for her sins.

3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare the way of the Lord, make straight the paths of our God.

and in zechariah 14:17 where jesus is identified as Lord God Almighty and Our God

January 4, 2005 at 10:49 pm#5128

Participant

Nick,

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Welcome back WIT

Thank you!

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All I know is that there are certain principles that can be applied to scripture that help it reveal itself to us.
One of those it that if a scriptural fact is revealed at least twice it is true[the principle of witnesses] By this we know that Jesus was raised by his Father as that fact is shown many times where the verse in Jn 2.19 stands alone so needs deeper analysis.
Another essential tool is the principle of God's delegation. He lives in heaven and uses His sons and His servants to do all his work.

Great. I assume that the principles that you are using to interpret the scripture are…well, scriptural. So can you point me to at least two scriptures that say that Yahweh does all His work through agents?

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If you do not grasp this tool then you will come across all kinds of confusion. You will see the feet of the Father standing on the Mt of Olives in Zech 14 and verses that say He created everything through the Son of God make no sense.

Actually, if you look at Zechariah 14 in context, it is talking about Judgement Day:

Zechariah 14:
“4And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, from east to west, making a very large valley; half of the mountain shall move toward the north and half of it toward the south.”

Either this will literally happen, in the last days, and the Mount of Olives will be ripped in two, or this is a metaphor for some extraordinary event that will take place. In either case, I have no problem with Yahweh accomplishing this Himself. Why do you?

T8,

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Well, according to your own teaching, Jesus is god of the universe, for two reasons. Firstly, he created it, and secondly he has been given all authority over heaven and earth by the Father. Is that a fair assessment of your beliefs?

Nick and T8,

It is obvious that Yahweh uses agents to accomplish His purposes, but it is a very different thing to say that Yahweh can only accomplish His will through agents. I say that Yahweh is capable of setting the stars in place without Jesus. What do you say? And, how do you interpret Psalm 8:3?

As I have mentioned previously, I am simply trying to establish the foundations of your faith, and whether or not they go against scripture – all scripture, including the foundations set in place by God in the OT. I see no room in the OT for God's people to have over them any god, (or deity, to use a less disputed term), other than Yahweh. I especially see that in the book of Deuteronomy. You seem to think that having two deities over us is perfectly scriptural, but how then do you interpret the Deut. 13 passage that I quoted?

January 4, 2005 at 10:50 pm#5129

Participant

Hi liljon,
Well the heresy of modalism is one way of explaining these scriptures. That is to say that the Father and the Son are the same.

There is another better answer.

Jesus acts in the Name of His Father and does the work of his Father.

Many struggle with this idea but it is throughout the scriptures-God delegates!

January 5, 2005 at 2:44 pm#5130

Participant

Nick,

I think that you and I were posting at the same time yesterday, so you might have missed my post. (It was posted just before yours.) If not, forgive the silly reminder!

January 5, 2005 at 8:41 pm#5131

Participant

YesWIT,
Sorry missed the postie
Why do I get the impression your God is too small?
Ps18.7
” Then the earth shook and quaked and the foundations of the mountains were trembling and were shaken, because he was angry”
v 9″ He bowed the heavens also and came down with thick darkness under his feet. And he rode on a cherub and flew;and he sped on the wings of the wind”
Ps 97 ” The Lord reigns ,let the earth rejoice .Let the many islands be glad. Clouds and thick darkness surround him .Righteousness and justice are the foundation of his throne .Fire goes before him and burns up his adversaries around about. His lightnings lit up the world .The earth saw and trembled The mountains melted like wax at the presence of the Lord. At the presence of the Lord of the whole earth”
Also Mic 1.4,Hab 3.10,Nah 1.5.Is 64.3, Ps114,
This describes the return of Jesus in his glory as king-The power and Glory of the Father is much greater.

When He even looks at the earth it trembles[ps 104.32]

It is the feet of Jesus as king that stand on the Mount of Olives. The Father is Spirit-not physical.
Is”52.7″ How lovely on the mountains are the feet of him who brings good news”

As Far as God delegating goes. God does not detail all He does in the Word or how He does it.
Pr 25. 2 “It is the Glory of God to conceal a matter…”

Spoonfeeding his servants is not His style.
But the word tells us all creation came through His only begotten Son and every action of God seen in scripture seems to be through His Son, Angels, Satan and men-apart from His voice being heard by Adam and Eve, Moses and Jesus and his disciples and His raising of Yashua. Ps 8.3 has to be interpreted in this light too-further revelation that the actual work was done through Yashua.
Even Judgement is delegated to Jesus who delegates it to men as well.

From God's point of view there are no other gods.
From man's point of view there are many gods.
God wants us to worship Him alone.

January 5, 2005 at 10:41 pm#5132

Participant

Nick,

After reading your last post, it has become painfully clear to me that we are not speaking the same language or reading the same scriptures. For example, you said:

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Why do I get the impression your God is too small?

I have NO idea where you would get this impression. Your own set of beliefs reduces Yahweh to a voice, aside from the resurrection of Yashua:

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But the word tells us all creation came through His only begotten Son and every action of God seen in scripture seems to be through His Son, Angels, Satan and men-apart from His voice being heard by Adam and Eve, Moses and Jesus and his disciples and His raising of Yashua.

In fact, in your last post, you have taken passages that attributes power and glory to Yahweh, and you have shifted that power and glory to Yashua! (Is there any better illustration of someone putting a god before Yahweh?!?!?)

Basically, anywhere in the scripture that you read about Yahweh, you immediately substitute Yashua as the actual person who does the work of God, (unless another agent is specified, of course).

I asked you to show me that this “tool” of scriptural interpretion was found in the bible, and you said:

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As Far as God delegating goes. God does not detail all He does in the Word or how He does it.
Pr 25. 2 “It is the Glory of God to conceal a matter…”

So essentially, you are telling me that this tool of yours is not found in scripture. Where then do you get the authority to say that scripture must be read in this way? I can only assume that it is from yourself. (Incidentally, trinitarians do the same thing. They come up with a way to interpret scripture from their own philosophy, and then impose it on every scripture that they read.) Until you can show me a higher authority for your method of interpreting scripture, I must simply reject it.

Regardless, I would still like to hear how you interpret the Deuteronomy 13 passage.

January 5, 2005 at 10:51 pm#5133

Participant

Yes WIT,
Our light is different.
That is obvious to all.
Can two walk together unless they agree?
Your interest seems to be to tear down and not to build?

January 6, 2005 at 3:29 am#5134

Participant

Hi,
God is the initiator of all things.As Paul said in Him in Acts 17.24f we live and move and have our being. He is not far from any of us. He is the ultimate authority. The centurion understood authority when he told Yahshua that he tells his servants to do this or that and it is done.A centurion cannot win a war and nor can any leader but the use of that authority if obeyed can do amazing things.

God does not need to do the work of creation -he gives the task to Jesus[Heb1.2,Jn1.3,1.10,Coll 1.16f]

He uses angels to speak for Him[Heb 2.2] as well as His Son[Heb 1.2] and the prophets[Heb 1.1] In fact he never does anything without giving advance warning through the prophets[Amos 3.7] He also gives signs in the heavens.[rev 12.1]
Satan is used to test men[Job1-2]even Jesus.

Why be God and do the work yourself?

January 6, 2005 at 8:32 am#5136

Participant

To WIT,

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 05 2005,17:49)

Firstly, he created it, and secondly he has been given all authority over heaven and earth by the Father. Is that a fair assessment of your beliefs?

It was God who created the universe, but he did it through his Son. That is what I teach. How God created the universe through his son is beyond my understanding at this time, but I believe it because scripture states this.

January 6, 2005 at 8:48 am#5137