Home Bible Doctrine Was Jesus begotten or created? Page 13

Was Jesus begotten or created?

, , Bible Doctrine, , 25,959

 

Jesus is the Word of God

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning…

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. And we beheld His glory, a glory as of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 

Definition of ‘Created’

“Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.” 

By this we know the Word was not made as it couldn’t came through him or it if he or it didn’t exist.

Definition of ‘Begotten’

Means fathered. Directly from the Father. Begotten of the Father.

Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee…

Conclusion

Whatever was first had to be begotten in order for all that followed to be created.

Whatever, whoever was first had to come from God’s own nature because there was nothing else but God to be derived from. He is the image of God.

But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God.

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Viewing 20 posts - 241 through 260 (of 25,960 total)
123…121314…1,2961,2971,298
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  • June 12, 2005 at 2:26 am#7132
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi WIT,
    Acts 17.18

    “… ' He seems to be a proclaimer of strange deities'-because he was preaching Jesus and the resurrection”

    Sound familiar?

    July 23, 2005 at 11:10 am#7990
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,
    The only begotten Son of God, with the Father as the Word in the beginning, chose obedience to God and emptied himself becoming for a little while less than the angels and partaking of flesh.

    He lived as one of us, no different apart from his love for wisdom shown teaching in the temple as a child. He also recognised his true Father at that age but went back and was subject to his human parents.He later took up carpentry living possibly in Capernaum till the age of 30.

    He was transformed into a man of power when he was baptised by water and anointed by the Spirit in the form of a dove and assumed his role in the power of God's Spirit. God worked through him His works by the Spirit.

    We can follow him by repenting and being baptised into his death and filled with the Spirit of God unto eternity.

    October 20, 2005 at 2:47 am#9688
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,
    If the Word was with God in the beginning
    and the only begotten Son was sent from heaven
    then the terms are interchangeable and
    the Fatherhood of God preceded the conception of Jesus.

    October 21, 2005 at 4:52 am#9745
    david
    Participant

    Hey Nick, I don't understand.

    I agree with you, but don't understand what you mean when you say “the terms are interchangeable” and conclude that the Fatherhood of God preceded the conception of Jesus.

    October 21, 2005 at 5:16 am#9746
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi david,
    Jn 1.1″In the beginning was the Word , and the Word was with God..”

    Jn 3.16f
    “For God so loved the world , that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through him”

    Who was with the God ? The Word.
    Who was given to the world? The Son
    Who was sent by the Father? the Son.

    So did the Son become the Son when he partook of flesh? No.
    So was he a Son before he was sent? Yes.

    So is is the Son equivalent to the Word? Yes, in my view.

    October 21, 2005 at 5:25 am#9747
    david
    Participant

    It appears that this post was begun by a Witness.

    Anyway, you say “Yes, in my view” as though there are some who don't believe this, or you're uncertain. But I know you're not uncertain.

    In the Christian Greek Scriptures “the Word” (Gr., ho Lo´gos) does appear as a title. (Joh 1:1, 14; Re 19:13) The apostle John identified the one to whom this title belongs, namely, Jesus, he being so designated not only during his ministry on earth as a perfect man but also during his prehuman spirit existence as well as after his exaltation to heaven.

    I'm not sure why anyone wouldn't think that the Son was equivalent to the Word.

    October 21, 2005 at 5:32 am#9749
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi david,
    Many believe he was the Word but only became a son at his conception in the womb of Mary. In that case scripture would not say God sent the Son but He sent the Word. And other sons seen in Gen 6 and Job 1,2,38 would have been sons before THE Son of God.

    October 21, 2005 at 5:07 pm#9767
    Adam Pastor
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 21 2005,06:16)
    Jn 1.1″In the beginning was the Word , and the Word was with God..”

    …

    … Who was with the God ? The Word.
    Who was given to the world? The Son
    Who was sent by the Father? the Son.

    So did the Son become the Son when he partook of flesh? No.
    So was he a Son before he was sent? Yes.

    So is is the Son equivalent to the Word? Yes, in my view.


    The above made me think of this following quote by Colin Brown …
    “It is a common but patent misreading of the opening of John’s Gospel to read it as if it said:
    “In the beginning was the Son, and the Son was with God and the Son was God.” “

    October 21, 2005 at 5:26 pm#9768
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Adam Pastor,
    The Son was sent into the world according to scripture. When was this?
    Was it after his conception as a man at his birth?
    Unrecorded and unlikely as infants do not understand speech
    Was it at his baptism?
    He was already in the world.
    He came and partook of flesh willingly.
    So when was he sent?

    October 21, 2005 at 11:47 pm#9780
    Adam Pastor
    Participant

    When was he sent?

    About the same time, John was sent from GOD? [John 1:6]

    About the same time, Christ's disciples were sent into the world!! (John 17:18)  As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

    In other words, neither John the Baptist nor Christ's disciples literally pre-existed their birth/conception. Yet they were sent into the world i.e. commissioned by GOD.

    In like manner, Jesus the Son of GOD was sent into the world i.e. commissioned by GOD. Sent into the world simply means commissioned to send GOD's message to the world. It does not mean to pre-exist in some other-worldly state nor to come from outer space into planet earth.

    The disciples spent over 3 years with Christ and THEN they were sent into the world! Yet, they were already in the world!!

    Quote
    Colin Brown rightly said
    “It is a common but patent misreading of the opening of John’s Gospel to read it as if it said:
    “In the beginning was the Son, and the Son was with God and the Son was God.” “

    October 22, 2005 at 12:37 am#9781
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Adam Pastor,
    John was a prophet. He and the other prophets are shown as slaves in Mt 21.33f. Likewise the disciples are shown as bondservants. They were all chosen and equipped by the Spirit to do the work of God among men. Slaves are bought and bondservants are also committed for life. But neither are born into the family. Neither can claim to be kept as of right or likely to inherit anything.Neither are inheritors by descent. Sons are different.They are born into the family and inherit as of right.

    The Son of God is different. He is shown in Mt 21.37 as being a son when he was sent.
    ” But afterwards he sent his son to them saying
    'They will respect my son'
    But when the vinegrowers saw the son, they said among themselves
    'This is the heir;come let us kill him and seize his inheritance' “

    October 22, 2005 at 2:23 am#9783
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Adam Pastor,
    Phil 2.5
    ” Hane this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who , though he existed in the form of God, did mnnot regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emoptied himself, taking the form of a bondservant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross”
    He existed in the form of God.
    He rejected seeking equality with God.
    He emptied himself.
    He took the form of a bondservant..
    Then
    Being made in the likeness of men he humbled himself and became obedient unto death.

    He, the only begotten Son, was sent from heaven to earth.

    We are not in the form of God.
    We cannot seek equality with God.
    We inherit the flesh of Adam and are enlived too with the breath of God.

    He who was with God took on flesh becoming like to us in every way.

    October 23, 2005 at 12:54 pm#9812
    david
    Participant

    Who is greater? The one sent or the one doing the sending?

    Quote
    About the same time, Christ's disciples were sent into the world!! (John 17:18) As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

    In other words, neither John the Baptist nor Christ's disciples literally pre-existed their birth/conception. Yet they were sent into the world i.e. commissioned by GOD.

    “In other words, neither John….”

    Yes, those are “other words.” They are not the same words. Nor the same thought.

    Does not life teach us that the one doing the sending is always greater than the one sent?
    Does not life teach us that a Father is greater, more knowledgeable, and older than his son?
    If not life, then the Bible should.

    October 23, 2005 at 6:06 pm#9815
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi david and Adam Pastor,
    What about the testimony of John, God's slave, in Jn 1.15?

    ” John testified about him and cried out saying
    'This is he of whom I said
    ” He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for he existed before me””

    John was born before Jesus so how could it be said that Jesus existed before him?

    Of course he did as Jn 1.10 said of Jesus;

    ” He was in the world and the world was made through him, and the world did not know him”

    October 23, 2005 at 6:37 pm#9816
    david
    Participant

    Right. Isn't there also a scripture where Jesus says: I am from the relams above.

    How is this to be taken, if not to mean he is from heaven?

    October 23, 2005 at 7:03 pm#9819
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Yes he did david,
    and he said in Jn 6.46
    ” Not that anyone has seen the Father , except the one who is from God; he has seen the Father”

    October 23, 2005 at 9:53 pm#9820
    NickHassan
    Participant

    and
    in Jn 823
    ” …You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world”

    October 23, 2005 at 11:49 pm#9823
    Adam Pastor
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 23 2005,22:53)
    and
    in Jn 8:23
    ” …You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world”


    Compare …

    (John 15:19)  If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    (John 17:14-16)  I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

    Jesus said that his disciples were not of the world even as he himself was not of this world!
    Yet, the disciples neither came from heaven nor did they pre-exist their conceptions/births!

    Hmmm!

    Could it be that the disciples were not of the world even in the same sense that Jesus their Master was not of the world … could it be that simple!! Selah.

    October 24, 2005 at 12:58 am#9827
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Adam P,
    Jn 6 32f
    ” ..it is my Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven and gives life to the world….I am the bread of Life;he who come to me will not hunger, and he who believes in me will never thirst.. For I have come down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of Him who sent me..I am the bread of life…I am the living bread that came down out of heaven.”

    October 24, 2005 at 6:54 pm#9829
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (Adam Pastor @ Oct. 24 2005,00:49)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 23 2005,22:53)
    and
    in Jn 8:23
    ” …You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world”


    Compare …

    (John 15:19)  If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    (John 17:14-16)  I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

    Jesus said that his disciples were not of the world even as he himself was not of this world!
    Yet, the disciples neither came from heaven nor did they pre-exist their conceptions/births!

    Hmmm!

    Could it be that the disciples were not of the world even in the same sense that Jesus their Master was not of the world … could it be that simple!! Selah.


    Hi Adam Pastor,
    Were the disciples of the world? Yes they were.
    Jn 15.16f
    “You did not choose me but I chose you….I chose you out of the world”

    They were of the world but they were chosen out of the world to be sent into the world. Christ was not chosen out of the world but was from above and was sent from heaven into the world.

    They were to be anointed with the same Spirit that filled Jesus Christ. They were to be filled with the Spirit of Christ and sent into the world from within the world to continue the mission of Christ, to show the power and nature of God and reconcile men with the Father.

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