Home Bible Doctrine Was Jesus begotten or created? Page 12

Was Jesus begotten or created?

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Jesus is the Word of God

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning…

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. And we beheld His glory, a glory as of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 

Definition of ‘Created’

“Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.” 

By this we know the Word was not made as it couldn’t came through him or it if he or it didn’t exist.

Definition of ‘Begotten’

Means fathered. Directly from the Father. Begotten of the Father.

Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee…

Conclusion

Whatever was first had to be begotten in order for all that followed to be created.

Whatever, whoever was first had to come from God’s own nature because there was nothing else but God to be derived from. He is the image of God.

But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God.

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Viewing 20 posts - 221 through 240 (of 25,960 total)
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  • Author
    Posts
  • May 9, 2005 at 12:46 am#6935
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi liljon,

    Yes Jesus is the Word of God. He is OF God. This is what you must believe in order to believe the truth.

    John 8:42
    Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.

    Please do not pass over these words like they are nothing liljon. There is a message in there for you and for all those who love the truth.

    May 9, 2005 at 8:44 am#6937
    bic
    Participant

    God is Spirit. His Spirit is Holy. Spirit is energy or POWER. The Holy Spirit is God's POWER.

    This SPIRIT beget MATTER and corruption entered into the world. With Spirit, there is no death. With Matter, it is inevitable.

    Jesus was God's first begotten (born of flesh). But God had a Spiritual 'Son' BEFORE creation. It was through this 'Son', the Word, that all things were CREATED. The Word, at Father's command, gave up His Godness and came down to live…and die in a flesh and blood (corruptible) body, the man Jesus Christ. But then, He was resurrected in a new, glorified body and has taken His RIGHTFUL place, once again, beside His Father.

    All CREATION was SPOKEN into existence: “And God SAID…” (The WORD created).

    The LOGOS is the executioner of God's decree, commands, and plans…His right hand man…His FIRSTBORN of all creation. This later became the man Jesus Christ.

    Therefore, the Logos can be seen as a MANIFESTATION of God. There are many other MANIFESTATIONS of God, creatures of which we can only imagine. It appears that long before (the) Creation (of matter), God had a lot of company…'hosts' comes to mind.

    Because of the DUALITY of Jesus' nature, He spoke as TWO distinct and separate entities. He spoke as the man Jesus and sometimes He spoke as the Word. When He asked the man, “Why do you call me good…”, He was talking as the man Jesus. When He said, “My Father and I are ONE.”, He was talking as the Logos.

    The thing about it is that Jesus was drawing on the POWER (Holy Spirit) of God to ENABLE Him to be and do GOOD. We can do the very same thing! Praise God for His AWESOME power! Is there POWER in His WORD or not? You KNOW it! How do you draw on that power? In FAITH, through BELIEF in His WORD. Don't have to know nothing but Jesus. So plain and simple, the wise are confounded.

    Jesus HAD freewill…does the Logos? It would seem not but who knows but God (and maybe Logos).

    May 9, 2005 at 10:30 am#6938
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi bic,
    When you say the Logos was a manifestation of God are you suggesting that he was part of the Father as with the Spirit?

    without life in himself?
    without true choice?
    without true fellowship with God?

    I think Jn 1.1 and Phil 2.5 shows differently.

    ” In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH GOD and the Word was God”

    ” Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a bondservant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.”

    So when did he choose not to grasp at equality and empty himself being sent by the Father with whom he had dwelled in the beginning?

    As the Logos, begotten of the Father, the firstborn Son in the heavenly family of God.

    May 9, 2005 at 10:37 am#6939
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi bic,
    ” My father and I will come to you ” also shows two distinct beings.

    ” Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up” in Jn 2.19 certainly shows the Father's Spirit speaking through Jesus.

    May 11, 2005 at 11:12 pm#6952
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,
    Rev 19.11f shows the Son of God as warrior King. Again he is identified as the Word of God or Logos showing that he who existed with the Father in the beginning is the one and the same Messiah Jesus Christ.

    May 27, 2005 at 9:34 am#7063
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi ,
    1Jn 4.9
    “By this the love of God was manifested in us, That God has sent his only begotten son into the world so that we might live through Him”
    1Jn 3.8
    “the one who practices sin is of the devil;for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil”

    Satan did not exist before the Son of God but he has been existing since the beginning. The Son pre-existed the devil as all creation came through him. He was not begotten 2000 years ago to deal with Satan. He was sent from where he lived with the Father in heaven to rescue earth from the prince of this world and begin the restoration of all things in heaven and earth under the authority of God.

    May 27, 2005 at 4:53 pm#7064
    Anonymous
    Guest

    http://www.ldolphin.org/kellyc.html

    May 27, 2005 at 9:14 pm#7065
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi FYI,
    The writer seems unable to make up his/her mind whether to believe in the Oneness doctrine or the trinity doctrine. Bizarre.

    Having said several times that Jesus claimed to be the Son of God [which we would be wise to accept] the writer goes to some length to show that Jesus was, in fact, that God and is not the Son.

    He says that when he claimed to be the Son he was just expressing a character of God. So no matter what else you need to show this is evil he has just denied both the Father and the Son. If they one and the same and the words are only symbolic then there is only one, there is no relationship between the Father and the Son.

    Thus there is no Father and no Son, only a God. He has also denied that Jesus Christ came in the flesh but says that God came in the flesh and died-that is the given scriptural evidence for an antichrist doctrine.

    He ignores the multiple scriptural evidences that God raised him from the dead to emphasise the one verse in Jn 2.19 when the Spirit spoke through him. He thus expresses almost all the foolish Oneness doctrine.

    Yet he proposes we should also believe in an equal trinity! Confusion upon confusion. Lies upon lies.Who needs this type of infantile folly?

    June 4, 2005 at 10:45 pm#7083
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,
    The Son of God is the secret and the mystery hidden from men until he partook of flesh.
    Rom 16.25
    ” Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, but now is manifested , and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all nations, leading to obedience of faith;”
    1Tim 3.16
    ” By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness
    'He who was revealed in the flesh, was vindicated in the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory”
    Jesus Christ is that mystery who was existing before he was revealed in the flesh.
    Coll 2.2
    ” that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge of God's mystery, that is, Christ himself, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge”
    Eph 3.3
    “…the mystery ,as I wrote before in brief. By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit”
    Coll 1.26
    ” ..so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God, that is , the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but now has been maifested to his saints , to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of His glory of this mystery among the gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory”

    Christ, the Light of men, the Word of God, existing from the beginning and the same yesterday, today and forever, as intermediary between God and man but hidden from men, is revealed at his birth and becomes the source of eternal life in God.

    June 6, 2005 at 3:51 am#7091
    epistemaniac
    Participant

    Quote (bic @ May 09 2005,09:44)
    God is Spirit. His Spirit is Holy. Spirit is energy or POWER. The Holy Spirit is God's POWER.

    This SPIRIT beget MATTER and corruption entered into the world. With Spirit, there is no death. With Matter, it is inevitable.

    Jesus was God's first begotten (born of flesh). But God had a Spiritual 'Son' BEFORE creation. It was through this 'Son', the Word, that all things were CREATED. The Word, at Father's command, gave up His Godness and came down to live…and die in a flesh and blood (corruptible) body, the man Jesus Christ. But then, He was resurrected in a new, glorified body and has taken His RIGHTFUL place, once again, beside His Father.

    All CREATION was SPOKEN into existence: “And God SAID…” (The WORD created).

    The LOGOS is the executioner of God's decree, commands, and plans…His right hand man…His FIRSTBORN of all creation. This later became the man Jesus Christ.

    Therefore, the Logos can be seen as a MANIFESTATION of God. There are many other MANIFESTATIONS of God, creatures of which we can only imagine. It appears that long before (the) Creation (of matter), God had a lot of company…'hosts' comes to mind.

    Because of the DUALITY of Jesus' nature, He spoke as TWO distinct and separate entities. He spoke as the man Jesus and sometimes He spoke as the Word. When He asked the man, “Why do you call me good…”, He was talking as the man Jesus. When He said, “My Father and I are ONE.”, He was talking as the Logos.

    The thing about it is that Jesus was drawing on the POWER (Holy Spirit) of God to ENABLE Him to be and do GOOD. We can do the very same thing! Praise God for His AWESOME power! Is there POWER in His WORD or not? You KNOW it! How do you draw on that power? In FAITH, through BELIEF in His WORD. Don't have to know nothing but Jesus. So plain and simple, the wise are confounded.

    Jesus HAD freewill…does the Logos? It would seem not but who knows but God (and maybe Logos).


    Hi all… newbie here…. :)

    bic, I just wanted to point to you that the Holy Spirit is not merely “God's power”…. the Bible speaks clearly of the Holy Spirit in personal terms… the Holy Spirit can be lied to, Act 5:3 ESV But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land?”

    … and manifestly, you cannot lie to a “power”…..

    also, the Holy Spirit can be grieved…. Eph 4:30 ESV And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.”

    you can't grieve an impersonal power….

    blessings

    June 6, 2005 at 4:08 am#7092
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Welcome E,
    The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God and is never separate from God. You lie to God and grieve God in those verses you quoted. That is why you may blaspheme against the Son if you are foolish enough not to respect him, but not against the Spirit OF GOD. That is also why the Spirit does not have a personal name. The Spirit is not a person.
    Phil 2.13
    ” For it is God who is at work in you both to will and to do”

    June 6, 2005 at 8:56 am#7093
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Hi Nick.
    If the Holy Spirit is the Father's spirit and is never seperate from God, why is it subservient to Yahshua?

    June 6, 2005 at 10:12 am#7094
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi ,
    Yeshua, who is separate from the Father, is subservient to His Father. The Father fills him with His Spirit. The Father, who lives in heaven, does all His work on earth through His Spirit. His Spirit is given to Yahweh and thus the Father lives in Yeshua by His Spirit.

    Yeshua is in the Father and the Father is in Yeshua. Because Yeshua is utterly subservient to the Father they are one in will and purpose. Thus too, because the Spirit is given to Christ the Spirit is also the Spirit of Christ. The Spirit does the work of God through Yeshua.

    The Spirit is also given to us who are reborn into Yeshua. The Father, as His Spirit, continues His work in the body of Christ. Thus we are one with Yeshua and the Father in the Spirit. The Spirit of God also helps us worship the Father and communes with the Father for us as there is never any separation between the Father and His Spirit.

    Thus the plan of God is to unite all in Him in His Spirit.

    Jn 4.24
    “God is spirit”
    Acts 2.17
    ” ..I will pour forth of My Spirit”
    1Jn 4.13
    ” …He has given us of His Spirit”
    Rom 8.9
    “..if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you”
    2Cor 3.17
    “Now the Lord is the Spirit..”

    June 6, 2005 at 7:46 pm#7095
    Anonymous
    Guest

    That is all very true Nick but you did not answer my question.

    June 6, 2005 at 8:01 pm#7096
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Arizona,
    I am sure the answer is there. The Spirit was GIVEN to Yeshua by God. God GIVES without repentance. Then the Father GIVES This Spirit, at the request of His Son, to us. Then too “The Spirit of the prophets are subject to the prophet's control” Now we have to, like Yeshua, walk by the Spirit.

    June 6, 2005 at 9:58 pm#7097
    Cubes
    Participant

    Hi Arizona:

    The understanding I am getting is that it is all about the Father's will: He who does the Father's will has his prayers answered by the Father…

    There is a specific scripture that came to mind to the effect that God honors the words of his servants…. unfortunately I cannot recall it at this time but hope someone knows the scripture I am talking about and can share it with us…

    An example in mind is that Elijah said to Ahab that it would not rain, and it didn't. Now we both know that as a man, Elijah has no authority to stop the rain, but as one who does God's will, he is so on the same page with God that he said something and God honored it; later I think the same scenario was played out with the prophets of baal. Elijah invited God to lunch basically, and he showed up! He didn't need to RSVP ahead of time…

  • Jam 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume [it] upon your lusts.

    Compare to:

  • Acts 2:32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.

    and

  • Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

    So looking at things from this angle, it would seem as though the Spirit is subsevient EVEN to the righteous children of God, but really, it is the children who have entered into the Father's will. Same is true for Christ. He could speak with authority and know that what he says shall come to pass.

June 6, 2005 at 11:04 pm#7098
Cubes
Participant

Here's another way of looking at the Holy Spirit in relation to Father…


Mat 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the KINGDOM, and the POWER, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Mar 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of POWER, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Hbr 1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his POWER, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the POWER of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Luk 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Power=[dunamis 1411]

June 7, 2005 at 9:52 am#7099
NickHassan
Participant

Hi ,
Prov 30.4
” Who has ascended into heaven and descended? Who has wrapped the wind in his fists Who has wrapped the waters in his garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name or His son's name? Surely you know”
Jn 3.13
” No one has ascended into heaven, but he who descended from heaven;the Son of Man”
Jn 6.62
” What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?”
Jn 20.17
” Jesus said to her 'Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father, but go to my brethren and say to them”I ascend to my Father ,and your Father ,and my God and your God””
Jn 16.28
” I came forth from the Father and have come into the world;I am leaving the world again and going to the Father”

Jesus Christ was spoken of as the Son of God hundreds of years before his birth. He came forth from the Father AND came into the world. He has descended from heaven and ascended again to be with the Father. This is the truth about the Son of God from the only reliable source-The Word of God.

June 10, 2005 at 7:29 am#7110
Anonymous
Guest

To Whatistrue, Rambling Rose, Adam Pastor and all others who deny Christ pre-existed his incarnation.

Can you please explain this verse:

Corinthians 8.8-9 [NIV]
For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich.

[try to do this without using your websites]

June 10, 2005 at 9:24 am#7111
NickHassan
Participant

Quite so CTL,
Jn 8 58
” Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born I am”
Jn 8.14
“…I know where I came from and where I am going;but you do not know where I came from or where I am going”
Jn 8.23
” And he was saying to them 'You are from below, I am from above ;you are of this world;I am not of this world”
Jn 819
” You know neither me nor my Father;if you knew me you would know my Father also”

Jesus would say the same things today. He existed before Abraham and came from heaven, sent by the Father and men who do not recognise him do not know the Father either.

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