Home Bible Doctrine Was Jesus begotten or created? Page 11

Was Jesus begotten or created?

, , Bible Doctrine, , 25,959

 

Jesus is the Word of God

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning…

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. And we beheld His glory, a glory as of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 

Definition of ‘Created’

“Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.” 

By this we know the Word was not made as it couldn’t came through him or it if he or it didn’t exist.

Definition of ‘Begotten’

Means fathered. Directly from the Father. Begotten of the Father.

Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee…

Conclusion

Whatever was first had to be begotten in order for all that followed to be created.

Whatever, whoever was first had to come from God’s own nature because there was nothing else but God to be derived from. He is the image of God.

But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God.

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Viewing 20 posts - 201 through 220 (of 25,960 total)
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  • January 19, 2005 at 12:45 am#5216
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    I knew that you would say this, no surprises here.

    If I believe that wisdom in God was given birth as the first of God works, then I do that knowing that I am quoting scripture. Also as far as I know 'prudence' wasn't given birth or begotten and therefore is spoken of as an attribute. But wisdom is spoken of as an attribute and then it changes once wisdom is given birth. There is a difference to an attribute (she) and then an attribute in God that is given birth. It even says 'I was the craftsman at his side'. So the female reference is used when talking about the attribute. But once wisdom is given birth as the first of God's works, then it mentions 'craftsman'.

    All things that are good are from God, even wisdom. But if he gave birth to wisdom, I take that to mean that this attribute of God was conceived or came from God and I personally believe that to be Christ for Christ is the Logos who was WITH God and he is the firstborn and God made the worlds through him.

    In the end that is what I believe and if I am wrong then it will not affect my salvation but I would need to apologise for teaching this because no lie is from God. But you need to prove to me that God didn't give birth to wisdom, that the scripture is saying something else to it's obvious meaning. But I do not believe that this is a foundational doctrine, so I have no problem if you have another view. I am just saying that you need to provide compelling evidence to what that scripture says is what you teach.

    I personally believe that we are all created from inside God as an attribute of himself. Whether it is love, charity, peace or whatever attribute of God it is, we were created to personify his attributes. Our heavenly name or new name will reflect who we are, or what attribute we were created to shine. That is why we are made in God's image. It is together that we are the image of Christ who is the image of God. We are to reflect his attributes, the fruits of his Spirit and given the diverse giftings of God, together we can reflect a lot of God's attributes.

    Our soul is who we are, spirit and flesh is what we are. I make a clear distinction between identity and nature. But I cannot see how your idea of Christ as being flesh in identity makes any sense. The 'Word became flesh', is that, he 'partook of flesh' or that 'he is flesh'? I know that Christ partook of flesh and it is of the antichrist spirit to say that Christ didn't come in the flesh. So who is Christ, if he came in the flesh?

    Adam P, I seek the truth in all things within limitations of course, but I cannot hold to your view that Christ was created the moment he was born of Mary and that he is flesh and not divine. Your explanations just seem to dodge what many scriptures are saying.

    There are a lot of scriptures that mention or hint at Christ exisiting before walking as a man. I cannot in good conscience write them all off or believe in the logic you have provided to write them off. A lot of your evidence and meanings of the words in the original language still do not write off that idea that Christ pre-existed. At most they offer a smaller possibility that they could be saying something else just as they could also (equally or more) mean what the translators have translated it to say.

    E.g. the root and offspring of David scripture. Yours or RRs stance is that the word 'root' can also be used as 'shoot', yet all other references of this word are used in the context of 'root'. So why should that be the exception? And even a shoot becomes the trunk anyway. The branches grow from there. I find it hard to believe that the vine comes after the branches for example. Or how is it that if all things hold together in Christ, then what happened before he existed. Let me tell you what happened. There was no creation at all to speak of.

    For the sake of the readers the scriptures I talk about regarding Christ being the firstborn (literally) and/or pre-existence from his earthly life can be found here:

    https://heavennet.net/answers/answer31.htm

    Also AdamP, do you have a comment on the Micah scripture?

    thx

    January 19, 2005 at 6:25 am#5217
    Adam Pastor
    Participant

    Micah speaks for itself.
    His origins have been prophesied/spoken of from old, from ancient times i.e. as far back as the time of David, the time of Moses, even as far back as Gen 3.15, the coming of the Messiah has been spoken of.
    This is what Micah is alluding to.

    This verse doesn't mean that Christ literally pre-existed.
    Rather, his origins have been spoke of from ancient times.

    January 19, 2005 at 7:50 am#5218
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Micah 5:2 (NIV)
    “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans [ Or rulers ] of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins [ Hebrew goings out ] are from of old, from ancient times. [ Or from days of eternity ] “

    (KJV)
    But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

    (NASB)
    “But as for (A)you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
            Too little to be among the clans of Judah,
            From (B)you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel
            His goings forth are (D)from long ago,
            From the days of eternity.”

    (YLT)
    And thou, Beth-Lehem Ephratah, Little to be among the chiefs of Judah! From thee to Me he cometh forth — to be ruler in Israel, And his comings forth [are] of old, From the days of antiquity.

    mowtsa'ah
    origin, place of going out from
    origin
    places of going out to or from

    qedem
    east, antiquity, front, that which is before, aforetime
    front, from the front or east, in front, mount of the East
    ancient time, aforetime, ancient, from of old, earliest time
    anciently, of old (adverb)
    beginning

    Again AdamP in my opinion you seem to be ignoring the obvious because of your pre-defined belief.

    It says that his ORIGIN is from ancient times. That seems very clear to me. I think you are dodging the obvious meaning again. You seem to have a tendency to go for the obscure meaning rather than the obvious. In this case the words 'spoken of' or 'prophecied' seem to be added in by you.

    No matter how clear something is, a person can change or alter something if he wants to. The question is why do you want to? Is it not better to let truth speak for itself and learn humbly from God so that he can exhalt you, than try to mould truth into your way of seeing things?

    January 19, 2005 at 1:53 pm#5219
    Adam Pastor
    Participant

    I knew that you would say this, no surprises here.  :)

    January 19, 2005 at 3:55 pm#5220
    liljon
    Participant

    Christ literally pre-existed
    John 20:28
    He is called Lord and God so his prexistence is nesessary

    January 20, 2005 at 1:32 am#5221
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (Adam Pastor @ Jan. 20 2005,08:53)
    I knew that you would say this, no surprises here.  :)


    :D

    January 23, 2005 at 10:48 pm#5230
    DORA
    Participant

    I believe the pre existance of Messiah, the anointed one, was his predestination…he did not exist as divine son until he was begotten in flesh…his birth was his beginning…(Ps 2:7) YVAH speaks of the son & decrees “this day” have I begotten you

    the word decree means “an appointment of time or space”…it denotes predestination & not pre existance

    there is a belief that all was made in the spirit before it was made in the material world & that includes the spirits of men…I think that may be possible but that would mean that the spirit that pre existed with God became incarnate at birth…a spirit is not the same as a spirit body…angels are spirit bodies…(Ps 104) says that God made the angels spirits or spirit bodies…flesh & blood was made a living soul

    a soul does not exist without the flesh body as the soul is the spirit & body as a whole…paul says in (2thes 5:23) that he prays that our “whole” body & spirit & soul be saved…the wholeness of body & spirit is soul…soul is the expression of body & spirit as a whole…

    (2 cor 7:1) “let us cleanse ouselves from all filthiness of the flesh & spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God”…notice that paul doesnt mention the soul in this scripture…that is because the soul is the spirit & body as a whole

    the spirit can be saved while the body is lost due to the corruption of the flesh…we reap what we sow & if we sow to the flesh we reap corruption…if the body is lost even though the spirit is saved due to faith in Jesus but walking in the works of the flesh then the soul is lost…

    the soul is expression of body & spirit & if the body is destroyed in the lake of fire even though the spirit is saved then the expression of spirit & body is lost also, thus the soul is lost…this is the condition that Jesus refers to as outer darkness…

    the spirit is saved from eternal damnation, but the body is destroyed, thus the expression of soul is lost…Jesus came to save the soul but the soul can be lost even with faith in Jesus…this is the result of sowing to the flesh…the works of the flesh will not inherit the kingdom, & only those who are led by the spirit are the sons of God (romans 8:14)

    the place often spoken of by Jesus called outer darkness is overlooked & believed to be eternal damnation…I am inclined to believe that it refers to the expression of the soul being lost even though the spirit is saved

    paul once spoke about a man in the church being turned over to satan for the destruction of the flesh that his soul may be saved…the man was a practicing believer who continued to sin

    January 23, 2005 at 11:15 pm#5231
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi Dora,

    It appears that what you believe is not what scripture says:

    Micah 5:2
    “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times. [ Or from days of eternity ] “

    January 23, 2005 at 11:32 pm#5232
    DORA
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ Jan. 23 2005,23:15)
    Hi Dora,

    It appears that what you believe is not what scripture says:

    Micah 5:2
    “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times. [ Or from days of eternity ] “


    (heb 1:1) “God, who at sundry times & in divers manners spoke in time past unto the fathers by the prophets”…it appears if you compare scritpture with scripture that “the ancient times” is speaking of what paul calls “time past” & refers to prophetic announcement of the coming Messiah

    days of eternity is a contradiction in terms…days refers to time & eternity has no time

    January 24, 2005 at 12:07 am#5235
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    To DORA,

    I would say that time is contained within eternity and Jesus origin is from ancient times.

    January 28, 2005 at 2:53 am#5260
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Dora,
    'decree' does not mean 'appointment' but 'decision' or 'determination' surely.The word is used in scripture not uncommonly[eg Acts 16 and 17] and you interpretation seems deceptive.
    Predestination theory does not preclude the fact that the scriptures are perhaps meant to be interpreted literally.

    Man as soul=body and spirit is also unscriptural.

    Man was made from dust and God blew into hiim the Breath of life and he became a living soul.

    But he still was of Dust as God reminded him a few pages later.
    “Remember man that though art dust and unto dust thou shalt return”

    January 31, 2005 at 12:13 am#5283
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,
    Ps 89.5
    ” The heavens will praise your wonders O Lord. Your faithfulness also IN THE ASSEMBLY OF THE HOLY ONES. For who in the skies is comparable to the Lord? Who AMONG THE SONS OF THE MIGHTY is like the Lord, a God greatly feared in the COUNCIL OF THE HOLY ONES and awesome ABOVE THOSE WHO ARE AROUND HIM”
    Ex 15.11
    “Who is like you AMONG THE GODS, O Lord”

    We know from Heb 1 that Yeshua is described as a God in Ps 45 and he is also mentioned in Ps 102 and 110.These scriptures clarify that certain others in heaven[so not men] are called gods in the OT.They are the sons of God of Jb 38

    My question is do these two scriptures also relate to Yeshua? Surely the Father is not described as 'among the gods' or 'in the assembly of the holy ones' etc. His glory far exceeds theirs and is not comparable I would have thought.

    What can others glean and share?

    February 10, 2005 at 1:08 am#5304
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,
    1Jn 1f
    “What WAS FROM THE BEGINNING,
    what we have heard,
    what we have seen with our eyes,
    what we beheld and our hands handled, concerning THE WORD OF LIFE-
    and the life was manifested and we have seen and bear witness and proclaim to you THE ETERNAL LIFE,
    WHICH WAS WITH THE FATHER and was manifested to us-
    what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also,
    that you may also have fellowship with us ;
    and indeed our fellowship is with the Father,
    and with His Son Jesus Christ.
    And these things we write so that our joy may be complete”

    John's testimony about Jesus says it all.

    February 10, 2005 at 9:15 pm#5305
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi ,
    Heb 7.1f
    ” For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham as he was returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, to whom Abraham apportioned a part of all the spoils, was first of all, by translation of his name , king of righteousness, and then also king of Salem which is king of peace.
    WITHOUT FATHER , WITHOUT MOTHER, WITHOUT GENEOLOGY, HAVING NEITHER BEGINNING OF DAYS NOR END OF LIFE BUT MADE LIKE THE SON OF GOD, he abides a priest perpetually”

    What does this say about the Son of God?

    I say it says that the Son of God was begotten before time. He did not have a human father or mother then. He is the first and the last.

    February 10, 2005 at 10:12 pm#5306
    NickHassan
    Participant

    ps
    Heb 10.5f
    ” Sacrifice and offering thou hast not desired but A BODY THOU HAST PREPARED FOR ME”

    If a body is prepared for Jesus then he must exist prior to the conception of that body surely?

    Beware Heb 10.29

    February 12, 2005 at 11:32 pm#5312
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Good point Nick.

    March 14, 2005 at 1:09 am#5686
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,
    1 Jn 4.2
    ” By this you know the Spirit of God;every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God”

    Who came in the flesh? Jesus Christ. So what you might say so did we and how does that make Jesus different? The difference is that Jesus existed as the Son of God before he came in the flesh or the above verse has no meaning.
    4.15
    ” Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God ,God abides in him and he in God”

    April 10, 2005 at 8:59 pm#6158
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,

    Adam Pastor has proposed that the Logos, who is the Son of God, does not exist. Would anyone else agree that Jesus was only the Son of Man and that Jesus was not with the Father in the beginning, was not sent from heaven by the Father and did not come in the flesh?

    April 11, 2005 at 9:53 pm#6180
    liljon
    Participant

    Adam either you believe jesus/ the word of god or you don't
    John 8:58
    john 1:1
    philp 2:6
    john 1:30-31
    john 17:3-5

    May 8, 2005 at 10:38 pm#6934
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Yes liljon,
    He is the Word of God and not God Himself.

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