Home Bible Doctrine Was Jesus begotten or created? Page 10

Was Jesus begotten or created?

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Jesus is the Word of God

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning…

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. And we beheld His glory, a glory as of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 

Definition of ‘Created’

“Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.” 

By this we know the Word was not made as it couldn’t came through him or it if he or it didn’t exist.

Definition of ‘Begotten’

Means fathered. Directly from the Father. Begotten of the Father.

Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee…

Conclusion

Whatever was first had to be begotten in order for all that followed to be created.

Whatever, whoever was first had to come from God’s own nature because there was nothing else but God to be derived from. He is the image of God.

But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God.

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

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  • January 11, 2005 at 5:49 am#5183
    DORA
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 10 2005,02:12)
    Hi Dora,
    Are you saying the firstborn and only begotten Son of God did not have a separate nature and being from the Father in the beginning?
    The other sons of God did [Jb 38.7] They shouted for joy when the foundations of the earth were laid by the Son of God as agent for the Father.


    as for the son of God, Jesus, having a separate nature from God in the beginning>>>the nature of Jesus was to do the will of God…he fully eliminated his own will in the wilderness temptation, where he dealt with the lust of the flesh

    did Jesus have lust? yes, the bible says he was tempted in all points like we are, yet without sin…he could have submitted to the lust to take dominion of the earth, which was already his, by his own will & by his own lusts

    he had just heard directly from heaven, the Father, that he was His beloved son in whom He was well pleased…both John & Jesus knew who the beloved son was…the Messiah, & both knew who Messiah was, the hier of God for whom all things were created from the beginning

    Jesus was tempted to use his own abilities to turn the stone to bread & he could have done it & he was hungry, starving actually…is it easier to turn stones to bread or feed a multitude by dividing fishes & loaves? and the other temptations he could legally & wilfully have accomplished by his own will as well…he could have moved by his own lusts of the flesh, but he fully laid his own will down & when he did that was when he beheld satan fall as lightening from heaven

    whew! i know this is not going to be understood because of the lack of understanding jewish idioms, customs, & the preconcieved idea that satan is a literal being who rules darkness…a being that was once a holy angel of God…i will say this…holy angels of God cannot sin because they are not flesh…they are spirit bodies & arent even tempted to sin or rebell against God

    what happened in the wilderness temptation was the lusts of the flesh, which is the tempter, were judged & they fell from dominion…in other words, the flesh was put under the perfect will of God…even though Jesus had no sin nature he was a flesh man…the flesh lusts against the spirit or has appetites of it's own that are against God's will…Jesus was no longer controled by any flesh appetites…he fully yeilded his life to the will of God & did nothing of his own will, thus when he spoke his words were spirit & life because they were the words of God that he heard & repeated…he did & spoke nothing of his own desires until the crucifiction

    again he was tempted to do his own will…he didnt want to be separated from the Father, which he would have to do if he became the lamb of God…and he prayed, “let this cup pass from me, nevertheless, your will be done”…again he restrained his own will

    nothing like this is taught in church, i know, but you will find it in the bible

    January 11, 2005 at 6:05 am#5184
    DORA
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 11 2005,05:05)
    Hi Dora,
    Born is not begotten.
    The Son of God was begotten in the beginning before time or the creation of all things, which were made through him.He is the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON.
    So if other sons exist then he pre existed them.
    But firstborn implies status and preeminence in all things.
    He was sent into into the world. He humbled himself and put aside his glory as the Son of God to be born as the Son of Man.
    The Logos was, then was made flesh.


    that's right, nick…conception is begotten…Jesus was concieved by a human sperm & egg…the reason i know the sperm was human is because humans beget humans…that is the law of God & He does not break His own laws

    if Jesus was begotten before the earth, who was his mother?

    as you know, Adam was also the son of God (luke 3:38), but Adam was not begotten & he was not the hier of all creation that was predestined in the beginning…God predestined His son to be begotten of a woman…a woman who was flesh

    He used the covenant of Abraham to bring this to pass, but the 1st prophesy of his conception was in the fall in eden…God said the seed of the serpent would be an enemy of the seed of the woman…Jesus was the seed of the woman

    this is not deity that pre-existed in heaven that changed himself or was changed into flesh…the word clearly tells us that God is not flesh & that God never changes & God never lies & He would be lying if He said all things & then altered what He said

    if begotten isnt being born, nick, what is it to you?

    January 11, 2005 at 8:06 am#5185
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Dora,
    Conception is nothing like begotten Dora.

    Begotten is derived directly from.
    Conception derives from two, not one.

    An image derives directly from the original. The Logos is the image of the Father. He is the only begotten Son of God.

    All other sons,including Adam, were created. No other being was involved when Yeshua was begotten but the Father alone.
    That is why Yeshua is the exact representation of the Father's being. He was derived in his being from the Father before time in the beginning. He is the second Adam as far as flesh is concerned. Through him and for him all else was created.[Heb 1,Jn 1]

    Jesus was born of a virgin. His mother was the only human involved as far as his body or tent was concerned. The Son of God partook of flesh to become like us.

    But why highlight the flesh?

    ” Make no provision for the flesh”

    Jn 6.63″The Spirit gives life. The flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are Spirit and they are life”

    This is what the Word of God says.I believe it.

    January 11, 2005 at 8:24 am#5186
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Dora,
    You do not have the right to change scripture.

    Scripture reveals that Satan tested the Son of God in the desert. To allegorise Satan is to change scripture. It is to take away from scripture. I am sure you know there are dire warnings for those who add or take away from the Word of God.

    Hebrews 1 tells us he had godly nature, and he was made for a little while less than the angels. So he was greater than the angels. When was that? Before he assumed our humble human estate.

    Phil 2 tells us the Son of God
    “made himself nothing, taking the nature of a servant being made in human likeness”

    So he was of godly nature
    but shed that to become a servant and
    was made in human likeness.

    That is the order of events revealed by Scripture.

    It does not say he was born a man,
    then humbled himself
    and became a servant.

    Why do people denigrate the Son of God
    and make him only Son of Man?

    Surely you fear God?

    January 11, 2005 at 6:09 pm#5187
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Dora,
    I like your concept of Yeshua as light in the beginning. He is the light of the world.
    But it does say the earth existed prior to light. The Earth is the round orb in the created universe but perhaps it looked more like the Moon or Mars?
    The other problem is the implication that Darkness existed before Light. Evil before Good. Satan before Yeshua.
    Sorry that is where the concept fails me.

    Jb 38 says the sons of God rejoiced when the foundations of the earth were being laid. So the earth had not been created yet. The Logos was firstborn so he was before them.

    January 12, 2005 at 6:32 am#5190
    DORA
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 11 2005,08:06)
    Hi Dora,
    Conception is nothing like begotten Dora.

    Begotten is derived directly from.
    Conception derives from two, not one.

    An image derives directly from the original. The Logos is the image of the Father. He is the only begotten Son of God.

    All other sons,including Adam, were created. No other being was involved when Yeshua was begotten but the Father alone.
    That is why Yeshua is the exact representation of the Father's being. He was derived in his being from the Father before time in the beginning. He is the second Adam as far as flesh is concerned. Through him and for him all else was created.[Heb 1,Jn 1]

    Jesus was born of a virgin. His mother was the only human involved as far as his body or tent was concerned. The Son of God partook of flesh to become like us.

    But why highlight the flesh?

    ” Make no provision for the flesh”

    Jn 6.63″The Spirit gives life. The flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are Spirit and they are life”

    This is what the Word of God says.I believe it.


    my dear bro, conception is what took place in Mary's womb…begotten is procreation & procreation is the process of reproducing after like kind…a dog doesnt procreate with a cat, etc

    Jesus was a human being in the flesh, a living soul & a life giving spirit…when isaac was concieved it was through miraculous process also, but isaac was abraham's seed…God produced the egg in sarah to concieve…it was produced by abraham's faith…he believed God when God promised it & God predestined it before it was declared to abe

    Messiah, Jesus, was predestined to be born “of” flesh…God promised that he would be the seed of the woman, ie, the virgin…then God continued to prophesy of how Messiah would be born in various ways…he told isaiah that as a sign a virgin would concieve…sign = miracle & direct result of intervention of the divine working “with man”, ie, Immanuel

    ignoring Jesus' flesh is not like ignoring our flesh appetites…Jesus' flesh is unique to any other…it was without sin because he did not inherit the sins of the father & bc he was the substance of light, the image of God “made flesh”

    if we dont eat the flesh of Jesus we have no life in us…that is a hard saying that has been interpreted many ways, but it simply refers to his flesh being the bread that is broken for us…only his flesh could be the sacrifice…he likens his flesh to the manna from heaven in the wilderness in moses day bc the manna kept the israelites in perfect health, but they didnt want the manna…they wanted flesh like they had in egypt & the murmured & complained against God bc he wasnt doing things the way they were used to, ie, the comforts of the flesh appetites…Jesus is saying the same thing was happening in his day…he came to his own (his inheritance) & they recieved him not

    they murmured against him & was looking for another messiah bc Jesus wasnt what they were expecting…but to as many as recieve him (in the flesh) he gives the power to become the sons of God

    how do you say that no other was involved when Yahshua was begotten by God alone? it is YVAH that sent Gabriel to declare to mary that she will concieve…that is God working with flesh or God with us, Immanuel

    Jesus' body was not a tent! he was a fully intergrated body of flesh, ie, body & spirit as a whole = soul…he wasnt in parts & he wasnt just a spirit

    January 12, 2005 at 7:00 am#5191
    DORA
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 11 2005,18:09)
    Hi Dora,
    I like your concept of Yeshua as light in the beginning. He is the light of the world.
    But it does say the earth existed prior to light. The Earth is the round orb in the created universe but perhaps it looked more like the Moon or Mars?
    The other problem is the implication that Darkness existed before Light. Evil before Good. Satan before Yeshua.
    Sorry that is where the concept fails me.

    Jb 38 says the sons of God rejoiced when the foundations of the earth were being laid. So the earth had not been created yet. The Logos was firstborn so he was before them.


    sorry if the truth offends you…i am just saying what is written by moses in genesis…the earth was not an orb before it was formed & it was not yet formed when darkness was upon the face of the deep…it not only wasnt formed it was void

    we are told that the darkness was there before God spoke, “light be”…i didnt write it

    you speculate about the earth being like the moon or mars because the moon & mars werent even formed yet…i think where you get hung up about this is by the word “create”…to create is to purpose & work out process, which is what God did when it says He created the heavens & the earth…the darkness in the beginning was the mystery of God's plan

    lets look at darkness being a part of God…have i lost you? :D come back for a minute ???

    Job & his friends talk alot about darkness & how it is such sorrow to them, then God talks to Job & He says something very interesting: (Job 38:4) God asks Job, “where were you when i laid the foundations of the earth?” then He says, “I made the cloud the garment thereof, & thick darkness a swaddling band for it” (38:9)

    (psalm 18:11) “He made darkness His secret place; His pavillion round about Him were dark waters & thick clouds of the skies”…this is God saying darkness is His pavillion & His secret place…(psalm 97:2) “Clouds & darkness are round about Him: righteousness & judgement are the habitation of His throne”

    this is speaking of God's hidden purposes that are higher than any can know…it is like darkness to us…all that compares to Him is like darkness…the word says that the light that is in us can be darkness, ie, without understanding

    before God formed the heavens or the earth He planned it, ie, He created His purpose…then God was moved by His spirit, ie, His spirit moved upon the face of the deep…He turned His face to form what He had created & the 1st thing He said was “light be!”…those are not my words…read it for yourself

    God did not create the light…He didnt form it with His hands…when He spoke He was saying let the light be that is…the light that is = God…so God spoke that Messiah was His purpose, Messiah would be the substance of light & the God made all things with the light (Messiah's anointing that was predestined before he was begotten)

    January 12, 2005 at 7:20 am#5192
    DORA
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 11 2005,18:09)
    Hi Dora,
    I like your concept of Yeshua as light in the beginning. He is the light of the world.
    But it does say the earth existed prior to light. The Earth is the round orb in the created universe but perhaps it looked more like the Moon or Mars?
    The other problem is the implication that Darkness existed before Light. Evil before Good. Satan before Yeshua.
    Sorry that is where the concept fails me.

    Jb 38 says the sons of God rejoiced when the foundations of the earth were being laid. So the earth had not been created yet. The Logos was firstborn so he was before them.


    ok, nick, lets look at Job 38…you say it says that “the sons of God rejoiced when the foundations of the earth were being laid. So the earth had not been created yet. The Logos was firstborn so he was before them.”

    (job 38:4-7) God says He laid the foundation of the earth & then “the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy”…the sons of God didnt precede the earth…they rejoyced after all was finished…the morning stars are the sons of God…they are the same

    the book of Job is written in parellel language, a form of poetry that is symetrical…in this script the sons of God are the morning stars

    i believe this is the 7th day when God rested…all creation worshipped Him & glorified Him…the sons of God were the male & female which God made on the 6th day (i personally am inclinded to believe that this was before Adam was formed)

    I believe the scripts indicate that Adam was formed after the 7th day & was set apart as intercessor…one reason i believe this is because on the 6th day “they” were made male & female, but when Adam was formed he was alone…i leave that with you

    but the sons of God were those made in the image & likeness of God…they were male & female & they inhabited the earth…it was the human race

    January 12, 2005 at 7:54 am#5193
    DORA
    Participant

    where do you get that logos was 1st born? that isnt written anywhere in scripture is it? logos = divine intellegence (wisdom) expressed…it is God expressing Himself in word or breathing out of Himself, which is His Spirit that is holy

    in (prov 8:22) wisdom is speaking (logos)…”the Lord (YVAH) possessed me in the beginning of His ways, before His works of old, I (wisdom) was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was..when there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water”

    it goes on to say that wisdom was there before the heavens also…i am inclined to beleive that this was God's predestination of all things…He created the heavens & the earth & they were not formed, darkness was upon the waters, but even before that wisdom (logos) was with God…this is not the son

    wisdom means “she who guides”…it is a feminine noun & it refers to God's spirit…God is an incorruptible spirit body & He has a spirit which is holy…they are not separate…He is male & female as a whole…not in form but in soul or essence…God is a soul & that is overlooked…spirit + body as a whole = soul…i will give you a few scripts that verify this…there are many

    (Isa 42:1) “behold my servant whom I uphold: mine elect in whom My soul delights” (speaking of God's love for Messiah)…(matt 12:18) “behold my servant in whom I have chosen; my beloved in whom My soul is well pleased”

    (heb 10:38) “the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, My soul shall have no pleasure in him”

    in nature the male nature is different from the female…in God is both complimentary natures…His wisdom is feminine so it is not the son, but in the anointing of the son is wisdom…he was the fullness of the godhead bodily…the godhead is not plural & isnt a unity of more than one to make a whole…the godhead is the only deity & there is no other

    Jesus was the logos “made flesh”…the logos is the word that God spoke on day one as He began to form the heavens & the earth because that is explained to us by John, but misunderstood (in my opinion)…the word (logos) that God spoke was “light be”…this word was with God & it was God & it was what God spoke in the beginning (the beginning of forming the heavens & the earth, not the beginning of creation when the earth was not yet formed)

    God said in essence, “let the light be as I am”…but that doesnt mean that Jesus was deity but his anointing was the substance of deity, ie, light…that anointing was made flesh, ie, light…john says of Jesus, “IN HIM was life; and the life was the light of men, & the light shined in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not”

    January 12, 2005 at 8:23 am#5194
    DORA
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 11 2005,08:24)
    Hi Dora,
    You do not have the right to change scripture.

    Scripture reveals that Satan tested the Son of God in the desert. To allegorise Satan is to change scripture. It is to take away from scripture. I am sure you know there are dire warnings for those who add or take away from the Word of God.

    Hebrews 1 tells us he had godly nature, and he was made for a little while less than the angels. So he was greater than the angels. When was that? Before he assumed our humble human estate.

    Phil 2 tells us the Son of God
    “made himself nothing, taking the nature of a servant being made in human likeness”

    So he was of godly nature
    but shed that to become a servant and
    was made in human likeness.

    That is the order of events revealed by Scripture.

    It does not say he was born a man,
    then humbled himself
    and became a servant.

    Why do people denigrate the Son of God
    and make him only Son of Man?

    Surely you fear God?


    i simply disagree, nick, but nothing i said changes scripture & nothing has been allegorised…it is there if you look but if you cant see maybe you should seek before you contradict…no matter what either of us believes the truth will stand

    son of man does not just mean to be human, which Jesus was, but it means to be ruler among men…when Jesus spoke of himself as son of man he was saying he was Messiah, ruler among men, & ruler of rulers

    if Jesus did not have flesh appetites he would not need to eat or sleep, but we know he did…flesh appetites are lusts…Jesus had flesh appetites that he did not let rule him, but he was tempted as we are…to be tempted is to drawn by our own lusts…Jesus was indeed tempted as we are yet without sin

    how Jesus became a servant was by not exercising his God given authority to rule as Messiah…that is what happened in the wilderness temptation…he was taken upon a pinnacle & tempted to rule all the kingdoms of the world because they were divinely his right to do so as Messiah, but if he did it would have caused him to deny worship & obedience to God's will, which was not to rule, but to serve…to serve God & not man

    Jesus never served man…he demonstrated his love to men & it was percieved as service or servility…he only did the will of God & he only served that will

    he said, “greater love has NO MAN than that he lay his life down for a friend”…this is what he did…he surrendered his right to rule by dominion & force (which he would have had to do because of adversity) for the purpose of purchasing his inheritance (all things created, including the souls of men) with his own body so we could become bone of his bone & flesh of his flesh

    from what you have already said, surely you will not hear me now, but i leave it with you to judge

    blessings to you

    January 12, 2005 at 2:09 pm#5195
    Adam Pastor
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 11 2005,08:06)
    Conception is nothing like begotten


    Not so, Nick esp. in the case of Jesus

    To be conceived & to be begotten is scripturally, exactly the very same thing!
    The translators masked this fact by translating the Greek word for 'begotten' as 'conceived' in Matt 1.20

    Nevertheless, if you check the Greek, it is the very same word.

    Gennao is used for

    • 'begat' in Matt 1:2-16, Acts 7:8, 29;
    • 'begotten' in Acts 13.33, 1 Cor 4.15, Phile 1.10, Heb 1.5, 5.5, 1 John 5.18
    • 'begat' & 'begotten' in 1 John 5.1
    • Yet, when it came to the case of Jesus' conception, the KJV translators translated the very same word as 'conceived'
      to mask the fact that
      Jesus was begotten in the womb of Mary by the holy spirit of GOD
      Matt 1.20

    Just thought I point this out!

    January 12, 2005 at 9:27 pm#5196
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Dora,
    You seem surprised that we do not  easily accept your understandings? Your assumptions and preconceptions are vastly different and tortuous.
    eg Son of Man means ruler-where does this come from?

    It is fine to share your understandings but not to teach them here.
    Here the truths from the Word of God are sought and shared.

    But some seem to establish their doctrines and then come back and publically attack the Word of God and try to destroy simple revealed truths such as that of the reality of Satan and the soul. That is the problem. The faith of the 'newborn' could be damaged. We should not be surprised as Jesus warned they would even deny him.

    1 thess tells us we are spirit, soul and body and they are separate and different.

    January 13, 2005 at 1:54 am#5200
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Dora,
    James 1.14f tells us own lusts tempt us from within. It says we should not accuse God of tempting us.

    But the same writer in Ch 4.7 says
    ” resist the Devil and he will flee from you”

    He was not saying that Satan does not exist but placing responsibility for sin where it belongs-with the sinner.

    Job 1-2 shows us that God allows Satan to trouble men.

    January 13, 2005 at 2:38 am#5201
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Yes Adam Pastor,
    Thank you. My apologies Dora. You are quite right about the word used here. I will look further into this.

    January 13, 2005 at 3:00 am#5202
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Dora,
    Ps 38 says that the sons of God sang for joy when the the foundations of the earth were being measured and laid. Any good builder will tell you that is before the finishing of it's construction!
    Now we know angels can be allegorised as stars as it is shown by the Spirit several times in Revelation[eg1.20]
    But you cannot reverse the metaphor and say they are stars. That is silly-stars do not sing.
    If I say you are a 'rock', that does not mean that all rocks are you!
    Gen 1.1 tells us the earth was created in the beginning. It also says the light was called Day, not the logos predestined thought or other.
    The logos is not wisdom either. It is Word who was with God in the beginning.

    January 17, 2005 at 5:58 am#5208
    DORA
    Participant

    fyi, the term son of man meaning ruler is found in the encyclopedia judaica…dont you use knowledge of biblical history in your study?

    January 17, 2005 at 6:07 am#5209
    DORA
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 12 2005,21:27)
    Hi Dora,
    You seem surprised that we do not  easily accept your understandings? Your assumptions and preconceptions are vastly different and tortuous.
    eg Son of Man means ruler-where does this come from?

    It is fine to share your understandings but not to teach them here.
    Here the truths from the Word of God are sought and shared.

    But some seem to establish their doctrines and then come back and publically attack the Word of God and try to destroy simple revealed truths such as that of the reality of Satan and the soul. That is the problem. The faith of the 'newborn' could be damaged. We should not be surprised as Jesus warned they would even deny him.

    1 thess tells us we are spirit, soul and body and they are separate and different.


    1 thes does not tell us that we are spirit, soul, & body & they are separate & different as you say, but you are free to believe that is true if you wish…i have no argument with you

    i'm aware that paul says he prays that our “whole” spirit & soul & body be preserved blameless (1thes 5:23)…this does not say they are separate…it says they are a whole & if you use all scripture instead of one vs you can rightly divide his meaning

    for example, in the creation account of Adam you find that God formed the body & breathed into it & Adam “became” a living soul or spirit man, thus, this indicates clearly that the body & spirit as a whole = the soul

    you falsely accuse me of assumptions & preconceptions (???)…i leave that with you to judge

    January 18, 2005 at 7:14 am#5212
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (Adam Pastor @ Jan. 13 2005,09:09)
    To be conceived & to be begotten is scripturally, exactly the very same thing!


    Proverbs 8:22-30
    22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, {[22] Or ; or } {[22] Or ; or } before his deeds of old;
    23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
    24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
    25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
    26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
    27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
    28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
    29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
    30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,

    1 Corinthians 1:24
    but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

    1 Corinthians 1:30
    It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God–that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

    Micah 5:2
    “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

    January 18, 2005 at 9:14 am#5213
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (DORA @ Jan. 18 2005,01:07)
    for example, in the creation account of Adam you find that God formed the body & breathed into it & Adam “became” a living soul or spirit man, thus, this indicates clearly that the body & spirit as a whole = the soul


    My understanding is as follows:

    Hebrews 4:12
    For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

    If body & spirit = the soul, then how does one seperate the soul and spirit. According to your formula it doesn't appear to work as your formula suggests the body.

    I think that Hebrews 4:12 is saying that the spirit to the soul is like the marrow to the bone.

    The marrow is the life of the bone and the spirit is the life force for the soul.

    I know that I could be wrong, but I will only accept that which agrees with scripture.

    thx

    January 18, 2005 at 3:16 pm#5214
    Adam Pastor
    Participant

    t8 …
    I hope you know and are aware that the whole of Proverbs 8 (not just 22 to 30) is simply talking about 'wisdom'.
    Nothing more, Nothing less.

    Wisdom is no more a literal person or living being in this chapter than 'Prudence' is in (Prov 8:12)  I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.

    Also, 'wisdom' in this whole chapter is personified as 'a woman'

    BTW To all JWs and those who adhere to their doctrines:
    Proverbs 8 is not talking about Jesus at all!
    It is simple talking about wisdom, using personification as well as other literary devices, to demonstrate the fact that GOD made all things 'by or through' His wisdom …
    as stated elsewhere throughout Scripture e.g.

    (Jer 10:12)  He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.
    (Jer 51:15)  He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heaven by his understanding.
    (Psa 104:24)  O YAHWEH, how manifold are thy works! in wisdom hast thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches.
    (Prov 3:19)  YAHWEH by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.

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