Testing the Trinity

Trinity Painting

 

The Spirit is the Spirit OF God
Yeshua is the son OF God.
So is the Father, the Father OF God?

No, the Father is never referred to as the Father of God, by teachers or in the Bible. That is because there is no doubt among Christians that the Father is God and not OF him. Even Paul stated this when he said, “for us there is one God the Father”. Today’s confession however, goes more like this: “for us there is one God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit”. So why is today’s language describing God different to what we read in scripture? What is going on?

The journey to answer this question and other related questions about the Trinity goes back a few decades for me. God had challenged my belief on the Trinity while I blindly believed and accepted the Trinity Doctrine as a pillar of my faith and assumed that it was the foundation of Christianity. But like most Christians, I had never really check it out. I knew at the time that God wants us to know intimately what we believe in and to test all things and also to watch our doctrine closely so we do not become deceived.

What I discovered about the Trinity

With a conviction in my heart to test the Trinity Doctrine, I embarked on reading scriptures that described God and to test the verses that are used to support the Trinity, but what I found truly challenged my belief in the Trinity. However, when I brought the subject up with other Christians while I was investigating this, there seemed to be this “do not question attitude” and in the end I decided I would just leave it and accept that the Trinity Doctrine was correct even though I felt that I was being untrue to the conviction in my heart. I based this decision on making other Christians feel uncomfortable with me as they assumed I was erring from the faith. In hindsight, I can see my problem was based in the fear of man. Truth should always override what people think.

It was some years later that God made me face my belief in the Trinity again and he kept putting certain scriptures in front of me to provoke me to test this belief. In the end I decided that I would not run away from this anymore, and I did a full study of the subject where God divinely lead me to a new scripture almost one each day. Each scripture in succession built a picture that really helped me to understand what God was conveying to me. While I had and continue to have a clear understanding of what the Trinity Doctrine teaches, the challenge was about seeing whether the Trinity Doctrine was a biblical doctrine.

What I discovered was very interesting and I will condense what I have been shown below.

  1. The Trinity Doctrine is not taught anywhere in scripture, but trinities were common in Paganism. They are rooted in Babylon, prominent in Egypt, still exist in India, and is the foundation of Roman Catholicism.
  2. The beginnings of recognition of this doctrine for Christianity started at the Council of Nicea approximately 325 AD. Hundreds of years after the last book in the Bible was written.
  3. The Council of Nicea was organized by the Roman Emperor Constantine and he had the final say on matters that he had little understanding of. He was also head of the Pagan religions.
  4. During and after the Holy Roman Empire, creed followed creed, and eventually idols were accepted as forms that we can worship God through. Mary was exalted to Mother of God (a title that goes back to Babylon) and worship of the saints was also sanctioned.
  5. The organized church we see today was built on top of these creeds. The creeds were and are the foundation for many of today’s churches/denominations. These denominations are not to be confused with the Body of Christ spoken of in the scripture. Most denominations are still rooted in a Trinitarian creed of some kind. So their foundation is the Trinity which came from Babylon.
  6. The mother of these denominations the Roman Catholic Church murdered approximately 50 million people, had armies which Jesus said his church did not need, and banned access to scripture to Christians. This time is known by the descriptive term, ‘The Dark Ages’.
  7. Some relief came during the Reformation where the teachings and authority of the Catholic Church were challenged. The Reformation restored many truths back to the Body of Christ.
  8. As a result of the Reformation, many new denominations started up, but they too held onto some of the creeds including the Trinity Doctrine.
  9. Babylon means confusion and the foundation of most denominations is the Trinity Doctrine which is confusing to all, even proponents of the doctrine. We are told to come out Babylon the Mystery religion lest we partake in her sins and iniquity. Who is Babylon? She is the mother of all harlots and the kings of the Earth have committed adultery with her. She is the religious system that was rooted in Babylon and she has made the whole world drunk on her wine.

History of the Trinity

From a historical point of view it seems strange to me that one of the pillars of Christianity didn’t come into existence or wasn’t recognized until 300 years after the death of Christ. On this point alone, I think its strange that we are encouraged not to question this doctrine and worse still, the the circumstances in which this doctrine came about should lead any clear thinking person to be at least suspicious.

In addition to that, the fruit of this doctrine appears to be bad. We know that one lie leads to another and history shows us that making Jesus God, opened the door for Mary to become the mother of God. Further, if Mary is the Mother of God, then that opens the door to the worship of other humans or saints.

In Revelation 17 we read about the ‘Mother of Harlots’ or the Great Prostitute who sits on many waters. Many people have speculated on her identity. Some say it is New York or the USA, others say it is Rome. If you are not familiar with this section of scripture, then it would pay to read it now before reading on.

Lets imagine for a minute that it is Rome as Rome is after all known to this day as the city of 7 hills. Now Constantine the Roman Emperor who dictated to the church so called truth becomes the original model of the person we call the Pope today. The Pope sits on a throne with supreme authority to dictate so called truth to the Roman Catholic Church. The Roman Catholic Church admits by it’s very name that it’s roots are in Rome and many of the traditions she adheres to come from Pagan traditions and festivals and were re-branded as Christian back in the days of Emperor Constantine. In one sense we can see that these creeds led to the worship of idols and men and changed the truth of God to a lie. But in order for these man-made creeds and lies to be administered and managed, there needed to exist some kind of organization of man to manage the politics of enforcing such creeds. The organizations are of course the organized churches of which the Catholic church is perhaps the mother which would make the smaller denominations the harlots or daughters of the harlot. The term ‘Mother of Harlots’ of course leads us to wonder who the daughters or offspring are. We also read that the kings of the earth have committed adultery with this harlot and we all know that many world leaders befriend the organized church so they can leverage her influence for their own political agendas and to gain votes. There will however come a time when God will call his children out of her because he will judge her quickly.

Babel, Babylon, Egypt, and Rome all have one thing in common. Their motives were to become great and make a name themselves. They also built structures as a way of showing their greatness and prowess. But the spirit of Babylon, Egypt, and Rome also enslave the children of God and also hated them to the point of death. In Rev 17 we read that the woman was drunk on the blood of the saints and is guilty of all the martyrs. History also records the dreadful killings of Christians by Rome and the enslavement of Israel by Egypt, but how many people are aware that the Catholic Church is also responsible for burning to death millions of people including Christians. They were killed as ‘heretics’ for things like reading scripture, translating scripture, or daring to obey the scriptures instead of their traditions.

Many denominations today still operate under this spirit of control including the persecution of those who question doctrines like the Trinity. Try questioning this doctrine in any denomination that is built on this creed, and watch the horror on people’s faces and the warnings that will proceed thereafter.

We know from scripture that the curse of Babel was division. The Babylonians built a tower in their name and God divided their language to weaken them, lest they succeed in all kinds of wickedness. But this spirit also exists in the organised churches. Each Denomination has its own creed, its own leaders and own customs or tradition, and they are all about making a name for themselves. They build towers in their name and in times past the steeples on these structure were the tallest structures in their communities. Now can you see that denominations are really just the divided languages of Christianity, just the same as divisions caused by multiple natural languages resulting from Babel. And the reason for this division is not what many think, it is so they cannot together succeed at works of iniquity and while in this divisive state, they cannot accomplish anything their hearts desire. True unity is extremely important and something that God will bring about and is already doing. But unity in the love and truth of God is paramount, not unity in making a name for themselves. People are misguided when they think that it would be a good thing if all the denominations united under one banner. What is better it people uniting in the truth because of their love of God and all things that are of him.

Denominations and their Trinity foundation

But doesn’t God use denominations to spread his gospel?. The quick answer to this is God uses men to do his work. If these men are part of a denomination or not, God uses the man, not the building and not the system. If you look into this you will likely find that the system actually hinders men in being led the the Spirit of God and the system itself takes up much resources to run, when instead such resources could help the poor and needy.

Many are being used by God for his purposes and this has been true since the birth of the Church. In times of great ignorance, it appears that God does compromise for our benefit. He works with what he can and we often limit God. But God is constantly trying to give us access to his limitless resources. In this age of denominations, it is hard to accept that there really is only one church built on the foundation of Christ and the Apostles. The only divisions are actually geographical divisions. The 7 churches in Revelation for example aren’t 7 separate churches, but 7 cities in which the Church resides. For example, in the Book of Revelation where it says: “to the Church in Laodecia”, it is saying to the Body of Christ in that particular city. We need to open our eyes in order to see the real Church. When you can really see the Body of Christ, you will never again say, I am going to church, because you will realize that we are the Church regardless of your location. This explains why we also read in 1 Corinthians 16:19: “The churches of Asia send greetings to you. Aquila and Prisca greet you warmly in the Lord, with the church that meets in their house.”. So this simply means the part of the Church that meets in that house. It was not a denomination like we see today.

Most denominations today have a Statement of Faith as their foundation and these are usually based on creeds formed centuries ago, but centuries after the Bible was first penned. Often Christians are invited or required to take out membership and that often requires an acceptance of a particular Statement of Faith. This sort of thing is common, yet it is unscriptural and deceives people into thinking that the denomination is the Church. They also think that once they have membership they belong to the Church. This couldn’t be further from the truth. Anyone can agree to a Statement of Faith or a Creed, even a mass murderer could do that. True Believers believe that Jesus Christ is the Lord, the Son of God, and the Messiah. The true Church is made up of God’s children and He dwells in them via his Spirit. Denominations on the other hand can contain true believers, but they can also contain non-believers, criminals, and unrepentant sinners. All true believers should use scripture and the Word of God as our Statement of Faith and we should realize that there is only One Church called the Body of Christ. The head of the true Church is Jesus Christ himself, not a Pope, Archbishop, or a president. We would do well to keep away from the words, wisdom and traditions of men.

The truth about God and who he is

Now the Trinity Doctrine says that God is made up of three persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. But the truth is that the Father is the only true God. So who is the son? Easy. He is the son of this God.

John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

The above scripture is not to be taken lightly. Do not pass over it until you have grasped it. After all, it is eternal life and isn’t that the point of having faith in God?

Ephesians 4:4-6
4 there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Clearly, the God and Father of all is the Father and not Jesus. Jesus is the Lord according to the above scripture.

Instead of using the Trinity to describe the God and his relationship with his Son. how about use Jesus own words. Are not his words better than some creed that came from man? John 15:1-2
1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.
2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

This scripture shows the same 3 levels that we see in the scripture below. Note: The word head means authority, head or source.

1 Corinthians 11:3
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

The true doctrine & foundation

The scriptures show us that we believers are united in doctrine by believing the following:

  • God exists and rewards those that seek him.
  • We must repent of our sins and turn to God and serve him.
  • Jesus is the only way to God and we should be baptized into his name.
  • Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.
  • Jesus died for our sins and was raised from the dead to the highest position (throne), that he may present us to God, holy and sanctified.
  • Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to the Church.
  • The Spirit of God leads us and teaches us all things.
  • That Jesus will return to earth and all the earthly kingdoms will fall. The Kingdom of God will come to earth.
I can have true unity of purpose with anyone that believes these points. The Trinity should never be pushed or taught as a doctrine, but today it is taught not only as a doctrine, but a foundational doctrine. However the Trinity Doctrine as a foundation is actually another foundation. Another foundation is not the same as the true foundation.

1 Corinthians 3:11
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Now Matthew 16:13-18 has a key for us.
13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.

Jesus commends Peter when he declares that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. Now Peter never said that Jesus was God at that opportune moment, but I am sure that many Christians given the same question today would say that he is God, yet that answer is different to the one Peter was commended for. Jesus actually built his Church on this truth, so it is obvious from this alone that the Trinity Doctrine is not the foundation of Jesus Church.

Now it is easy to show scriptures that show the Father to be God and there also appear to be a few scriptures that say that Jesus is God (Elohim, Theos). Most of the time Jesus is referred to as the Son of God. Even the Devil and demons called him the Son of God. See Matthew 8:29 & Matthew 4:3-6

But a lot of people also ignore the fact that we humans are also called Gods. John 10:34 uses the word “theos” to describe Man.
Psalms 82:6 uses the word “Elohim” to describe Man.

The word God is also used for Idols and Satan.
Exodus 20:23 uses the word “elohim” to describe Idols.
2 Corinthians 4:4 uses the word “theos” of this world to describe Satan.

But it must be made clear that ‘Elohim’ and ‘Theos’ are not names of God, they are titles in the same way Master is a title. When we see the word God, it is important to read the adjectives to see what kind of God is being referred to. E.g. the Most High God (the Father) is different to the God of this age (Satan).

Now there are many gods as I have pointed out, but the Father is the Most High God. See 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 which says
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Also remember that Jesus calls us brethren/brothers. But to the Father we are his children or offspring.

Now Psalm 2:7 says
“I will declare the decree: Yahweh hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.”

So the name of the Most High God is (YHWH) which is referred to by scholars as Yahweh. So Yahweh (God) is the Father of Jesus. So it is clear that Jesus is not Yahweh. He is Yahweh’s Son. Now Jesus in Hebrew is Yashua and he is never referred to as Yahweh. Yashua means “Yahweh saves” or “Yahweh is salvation”. So God’s name is in his son’s name. (Yah)

Ephesians 3:14-15
14 For this reason I kneel before the Father,
15 from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name.

Just like Trinitarians today, the Jews thought that Jesus was claiming to be God, but Jesus defended this accusation with the following words in John 10:34-36
34 “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are gods’?
35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came and the Scripture cannot be broken
36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?

So the Jews accused Jesus of saying he was God and instead of agreeing and saying something like “Yes I am God” Jesus defended himself with the statement “You are Gods (theos) and then he stresses that he was claiming to be the Son of God.” Many Christians still make the same mistake today. Read John 10:27-36 to read the above words of Jesus in context. In that context, Jesus even said to the Jews that the Father was greater than himself.

Who and what is Jesus

So who is Jesus. The following Statements are from the scriptures, and should be the words that we trust in in order to understand who Jesus really is.

  • God has spoken to us through the Prophets and now his Son.
    See Hebrews 1:1-6
  • The Son is the exact brightness of God’s glory.
    See Hebrews 1:1-6
  • He is the image of the invisible God.
    See Colossians 1:12-16
  • God sustains all things by his Word (Jesus is the Word of God).
    See Hebrews 1:1-6 & John 1:1
  • He is seated at the right hand of God.
    See Colossians 3:1-3
  • He inherited a name more superior to the Angels.
    See Hebrews 1:1-6
  • He is worthy to be worshipped by Angels.
    See Hebrews 1:1-6
  • God became a Father when he begat his son “You are my Son, today I have become your Father”.
    See Hebrews 1:1-6
  • He is the Firstborn from the Dead.
    See Revelation 1:4-6
  • Jesus has first place in everything.
    See Colossians 1:18
  • Jesus is head over the Church.
    See Ephesians 1:22
  • He is Gods firstborn.
    See Hebrews 1:1-6
  • Jesus is the Ruler or Beginning of the Creation of God.
    See Revelation 3:14
  • Jesus is begotten, not created.
    See John 1:3
The last scripture above, shows us that Jesus was not created. Many other scriptures show us that Jesus is begotten (born). See John 1:18 & John 3:18

Jesus is truly the only begotten Son of God. Yes we too are the Sons of God, but we were begotten from God through his Word (Christ). All creation was made this way. But Jesus was begotten directly from God and he is the exact image of God. And we (the church) are the image of Christ. Again I point out the importance of 1Corinthians 11:3 and Colossians 2:8-10 which says,
in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.

Here we can see clearly that Christ is the fullness of God and we the Church are the fullness of Christ. So consider this, if we use this scripture to say that Jesus is God, then in all fairness we have to conclude that we are Christ. This is of course a misinterpretation of scripture. The truth is that Jesus has the divine nature and God also wants us to share that nature too. So just as the Deity is in Christ, Christ is in us.

To be divine and to be the Divine is two different things. One identifies a nature and the other identifies a person. God is the Divine and he shares his nature with his sons who are part of his family. Christ has divine nature as the Son is like his Father. But did you know hat we can also partake of the divine nature and still not be God? And if you understand that, then it must be that if Jesus has divine nature, then that also does not make him God.

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Moving on, Matthew 24:36 shows us clearly that the Son doesn’t know everything, yet God is all knowing.
“No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. My confession is that Jesus Christ is Lord and I believe that all will confess this one day. And I also believe that God is Spirit and Invisible and that he resides inside and outside of his creation. See 2 Chronicles 2:6. Similar to physical light, it is invisible except that it reveals all things. Now when light strikes a prism it reflects all the colours and this is like Christ. He reveals and reflects God who is light. Jesus reveals the Invisible Spirit who dwells in him. Jesus has a body and the glory of God is visible to us in Christ. There is no other way for us to se God or to know God or to fellowship with God. Jesus is the only Mediator between Man and God.

Colossians 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Jesus is the Image of God and he is seated on the Fathers throne above creation and Jesus seats us on his throne.

Revelation 3:21
To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne. Jesus calls his Father, God and he says that his God is also our God. See John 20:17
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ ” & Revelation 1:1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Also in John 8:28 we read the following:
Jesus said “I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me”

Now 1 Corinthians 15:27 shows us clearly that Jesus is not God.
27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When the Most High God is being referred to, it is always talking about the Father.

John 3:16 says
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Conclusion

To sum up: 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 embodies what I am saying.
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

The Trinity makes and idol out of God. Its no different to making a graven image from your hands as it is to make God into a form in your mind or using a diagram to depict him. It is the nature of Man to do this. The Trinity and Nicene Creed is the founding document to the man made organized religion that has suppressed and kept in fear many of Gods people. Upon that creed many heresies followed. If its origin is man then its fruit will be death, control and fear and history has revealed the fruit of this doctrine. God is a person and the Trinity Doctrine says that God is a class/family. We know that there are many gods, so the word ‘god’ can be used in the sense of class, but there is only one God the person otherwise there would be more than 1 God. I and many others including the Jews believe that God is a person, not an organization. Perhaps God is calling us out of Egypt and her gods. This is where the Trinity Doctrine came from and the Egyptians already worshipped a Trinity before the gospel reached them. All they did was replace the names. But the concept remains the same. A Christian appearance but a pagan heart. Two more scriptures before I finish.

Proverbs 8:22-30 Talks about someone who was brought forth by God, yet existed before creation and witnessed God creating the Cosmos.
Matthew 3:17 says “And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased” So WHO is Jesus? He is the Christ, the Son of God, the Word of God, the Image of God and the Wisdom of God. He is of God and shares his nature, but he is not that God in identity. The true God is his Father and our Father.

For a more in depth look at this subject, see the writing The Trinity Doctrine.

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  • #778863
    DavidL
    Participant

    Your argument against the Trinity is that it is a man-made doctrine (extra-Biblical)…you say it doesn’t stem from the Bible but has it’s origin outside of Scripture…

    Yet your whole understanding on this is derived from extra-Biblical teaching (!) – and those who have God’s Word as their sole foundation know without a shadow of doubt that God is presented in Scripture as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit…(!)

    You are so obviously mixed up, yet you cling to your delusion..

    Your practice is that of the cults – you quote Scripture to make people think you are teaching the truth…(!) but in reality you are actually teaching something false…

    You are doing exactly what you accuse others of doing….Your very argument against the Trinity (as a man-made doctrine) is in itself a man-made doctrine…!

    Without realizing it you have fallen into the same trap of what you think others have done – putting an extra-Biblical doctrine first and Scripture second…!

    This sadly is your delusion.

    #778864
    DavidL
    Participant

    John Bunyan has something that you sadly lack – Spiritual inspiration…he has this because he trusted fully in the inspired Word of God – his faith untainted by the philosophy of man…

    Put simply – he believed the Word of God therefore he knew that the true nature of God is Triune…!

    If you would but humbly listen to his sound and spiritual advice, you might actually see how you have fallen into the error of carnal reasoning…and of taking one Scripture at the expense of others…

    #778865
    DavidL
    Participant

    It was Worldly Wiseman (from the town of Carnal Policy), who first turned Christian out of the way…so too with us – if we listen to the voice of worldly wisdom we will soon lose sight of the true path, and stand in need of correction..!

    #778866
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    But Jesus is not Wordly Wiseman is he?

    I believe that there is one God the Father, and that he is the only true God, and that he sent his son to this world, and that he made his son, both Lord and Christ.

    And for this, you call me Worldly Wiseman, and yet these are not my words, but the words of Paul, and more importantly, the words of Jesus.

    It is the Trinity Doctrine that is the bread of Worldly Wiseman.

    Forsake Athanasius and Constantine, and listen to the words of the Lord Jesus Christ. “For this is eternal life, that you may know the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom he has sent”.

    One of these days, you will admit that Jesus was right when he spoke this. When will that day come?

    #778867
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Not true. Jesus said, “This is eternal life, that you may know the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom ye have sent”. I believe this simple truth and embrace simplicity in Christ. While you come here and preach that confusing doctrine that no one fully understands, that Jesus is part of a triune God and that the one true God is three persons.

    Such language is not in scripture, but is found in the doctrine of Athanasius and the Popes. This complication is not of Christ. The truth is simple. Jesus is the son of the only true God.

    #778868
    DavidL
    Participant

    If you simply accepted the words of Jesus Christ (as you pretend) and your understanding was molded solely by the pure Word of Scripture (instead of all the other theological/philosophical concepts of ‘worldlywisdom’ you’ve brought into) then you would not be vainly attempting to deny the truth as presented to us in Scripture – that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are equally God…

    You say, – The Trinity Doctrine is not taught anywhere in scripture, but trinities were common in Paganism. They are rooted in Babylon, prominent in Egypt, still exist in India, and is the foundation of Roman Catholicism..

    So…Where did you get this information from…? Because, if you look to Scripture you find the Trinity in many places –
    *John 14:26
    *John 16:13-15
    *1 Cor. 12:4-6
    Just a few I come across without even looking…!

    #778869
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    DavidL. No one is denying that there is one God the Father, one Lord Jesus Christ, and one Spirit.

    But that is not the Trinity Doctrine. As I have said before and judging by this post, you are out of your depth and you should graciously concede this.

    #778870
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    And the last scripture you quote actually is a proof verse for there being one God the Father. It says, God, Jesus, Spirit.

    Where as you say that God is all three, thus, this would make five according to your view.

    God Trinity + Jesus + Spirit. Not to mention that there would be two Jesus’s and two spirits.

    Back to the drawing board. These scriptures acknowledge that the Father is the true God and that he has a son. And we know that God has a spirit.

    No Trinity here.

    #778871
    DavidL
    Participant

    You accuse the Roman Catholic church of Paganism and false doctrine, yet in so doing you are now forging YOUR OWN paganistic belief…!

    The Catholics created Purgatory – a non-Biblical place between heaven and hell (neither here nor there)…but now, in attacking the Trinity and the deity of Christ as some false doctrine of Rome, you yourself are inventing another religious fallacy that is equally as false… in theological terms you have created for Christ a realm where He is neither fully God nor fully man…!!

    John declares that the Word was with God and the Word was God…
    In the verses I shared (which of course don’t fit your new theology) we see how the Son and the Spirit are likewise with God and at the same time are God…

    It is very plain for the un-indoctrinated to see, but sadly, like the Pharisees of old, your mind is now shrouded in extra-Biblical concepts (that you actually think are Biblical..!!) and so you become locked into the very same delusion you accuse others of..!!!

    #778872
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    DavidL, the Trinity is the Catholic faith.

    And I am simply agreeing with Jesus when he said: “this is eternal life, that you may know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he has sent”.

    Here is the faith that you espouse. It is the Catholic Faith. You are under her influence:

    1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;

    2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

    3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;

    4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.

    5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.

    6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.

    7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.

    8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.

    9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.

    10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.

    11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.

    12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.

    13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.

    14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.

    15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;

    16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

    17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;

    18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.

    19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;

    #778873
    Norah Munee
    Guest

    The truth is: Shama’ Yisrael Yahweh Elohim is ONE.there is NO TRINITY.
    This was introduced in the middle ages (dark ages) by Romans hence Roman Catholic Church and it was borrowed from pagan worshipers, the heathen. Know your history!! The information is available in our history books. It is not a secret anymore. Our creator is one although He has many attributes. Yahweh Elohim is ONE-ECHAD!!

    #778874
    DavidL
    Participant

    More confusion – t8 says we worship Jesus, Brian says we don’t…!?

    #778875
    DavidL
    Participant

    Shama’ Yisrael Yahweh Elohim is ONE – (Hear O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord.)

    The first name for God given in the Bible is Elohim. It is a plural noun used with singular verbs. According to Genesis 1:1, the Creator of the Universe, Elohim, exists as a plural being.

    Genesis 1:26: Then God (Elohim) said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness …”

    ECHAD. (ONE) A glance through the Hebrew text where the word is used elsewhere can quickly show that the word echad does not mean an absolute “one” but a compound “one.”

    For instance, in Genesis 1:5 the combination of evening and morning comprise one (echad) day. In Genesis 2:24 a man and a woman come together in marriage and the two “shall become one (echad) flesh.” In Ezra 2:64 we are told that the whole assembly was as one (echad), though, of course, it was composed of numerous people. Ezekiel 37:17 provides a rather striking example where two sticks are combined to become one (echad). Thus, use of the word echad in Scripture shows it to be a compound and not an absolute unity.

    John strikingly reveals the plurality of our one GOD when he declares – “IN THE BEGINNING…was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was…GOD.”

    #778876
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @ DavidL
    We understand why you believe the Trinity, but it is obscure and contradicts half the New Testament. Any hypothesis you come up with has to embrace all scripture, not just a few.

    We know that God created all things through his Word and the Word was with him, and the Word is Jesus who is the image of God. Thus do you think it possible that God might say, “let us create God in our image”. I mean you seem to give the impression that God is a pie chart when he created all things. But we know that the Word was with God, (next to him as he is now). Thus when God created all things through the Word, then God is the Father and Jesus is the Word. I count two here, thus “let us” makes perfect sense.

    But your view contradicts for example that there is one true God the Father and takes away from the identity and position of Jesus by folding him into God himself.

    #778877
    Admin
    Keymaster

    BTW, elohim is used of angels too and even an earthquake. In the case of the latter, is it a plural of earthquakes?

    #778878
    Admin
    Keymaster

    @ DavidL
    echad means both unity and one in number. So if there is a choice, then let scripture point you to which is correct.

    Jesus said, “eternal life is this, to know the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom he has sent”.

    Thus according to Jesus, God is one and is composed of the Father who is one. There you have it. Jesus clears this up for you and you will listen if you are one of his sheep.

    Further, when echad means one in unity it tells you what is in unity, i.e., the man and the woman for example. But the Lord thy God is one God is not telling you that there are multiple members that are one God is it. And if the one true God is the Father, then you either accept this important truth or you reject it. Also the word Mono is used of God elsewhere. e.g., 1 Timothy 1:17
    “Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only [monos] God”.

    #778879
    DavidL
    Participant

    Your argument is that the Trinity is not found in Scripture, but rather you would say, it contradicts Scripture…a conclusion you have reached, NOT from meditating on the Word and allowing the Spirit to enlighten your understanding, but by logical conclusions and theological deductions…

    If you allow Scripture to interpret Scripture and follow the guidance of the Spirit, you find that, as the Apostle John declares, the very first verse of the Bible reveals the Father and Son together as GOD – this of course messes with your theology…but that’s because your theology is ‘logic’ based – not Spirit based..!

    #778880
    Admin
    Keymaster

    DavidL, you make statements, but they do not match scripture. And you never explain why this is. I cannot take you at your word. Show me scripture and show me how the scriptures we quote are not saying what they say. Then I will consider that. But statements like this are meaningless. The Bereans checked out what Paul said using scripture and Paul commended them for that. I am doing the same for you, and your conclusions do not match scripture.

    #778881
    DavidL
    Participant

    GOD IS THREE – (JEWISHNESS AND THE TRINITY By Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum)

    Going through the Hebrew Scriptures we find that three, and only three, distinct personalities are ever considered divine.

    1. First, there are the numerous times when there is a reference to the Lord YHVH. This usage is so frequent that there is no need to devote space to it.

    2. A second personality is referred to as the Angel of YHVH. This individual is always considered distinct from all other angels and is unique. In almost every passage where he is found he is referred to as both the Angel of YHVH and YHVH himself. For instance in Genesis 16:7 he is referred to as the Angel of YHVH, but then in 16:13 as YHVH himself. In Genesis 22:11 he is the Angel of YHVH, but God himself in 22:12. Other examples could be given. (2)

    A very interesting passage is Exodus 23:20-23 where this angel has the power to pardon sin because God’s own name YHVH is in him, and, therefore, he is to be obeyed without question. This can hardly be said of any ordinary angel. But the very fact that God’s own name is in this angel shows his divine status.

    3. A third major personality that comes through is the Spirit of God, often referred to simply as the Ruach Ha-kodesh. There are a good number of references to the Spirit of God among which are Genesis 1:2; 6:3; Job 33:4; Psalm 51:11; 139:7; Isaiah 11:2; 63:10,14. The Holy Spirit cannot be a mere emanation because he has all the characteristics of personality (intellect, emotion and will) and is considered divine.

    So then, from various sections of the Hebrew Scriptures there is a clear showing that three personalities are referred to as divine and as being God: the Lord YHVH, the Angel of YHVH and the Spirit of God.

    #778882
    DavidL
    Participant

    The Three Personalities in the Same Passage

    In the Hebrew Scriptures you will also find all three personalities of the Godhead referred to in single passages. Two examples are Isaiah 48:12-16 and 63:7-14.

    Because of the significance of the first passage, it will be quoted:

    “Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last. Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand has stretched out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand up together. All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; he shall do His pleasure on Babylon, and His arm shall be against the Chaldeans. I, even I, have spoken; yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper. Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit have sent Me.”

    It should be noted that the speaker refers to himself as the one who is responsible for the creation of the heavens and the earth. It is clear that he cannot be speaking of anyone other than God. But then in verse 16, the speaker refers to himself using the pronouns of “I” and “me” and then distinguishes himself from two other personalities. He distinguishes himself from the Lord YHVH and then from the Spirit of God. Here is the Tri-unity as clearly defined as the Hebrew Scriptures make it.

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