Testing the Trinity

Trinity Painting

 

The Spirit is the Spirit OF God
Yeshua is the son OF God.
So is the Father, the Father OF God?

No, the Father is never referred to as the Father of God, by teachers or in the Bible. That is because there is no doubt among Christians that the Father is God and not OF him. Even Paul stated this when he said, “for us there is one God the Father”. Today’s confession however, goes more like this: “for us there is one God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit”. So why is today’s language describing God different to what we read in scripture? What is going on?

The journey to answer this question and other related questions about the Trinity goes back a few decades for me. God had challenged my belief on the Trinity while I blindly believed and accepted the Trinity Doctrine as a pillar of my faith and assumed that it was the foundation of Christianity. But like most Christians, I had never really check it out. I knew at the time that God wants us to know intimately what we believe in and to test all things and also to watch our doctrine closely so we do not become deceived.

What I discovered about the Trinity

With a conviction in my heart to test the Trinity Doctrine, I embarked on reading scriptures that described God and to test the verses that are used to support the Trinity, but what I found truly challenged my belief in the Trinity. However, when I brought the subject up with other Christians while I was investigating this, there seemed to be this “do not question attitude” and in the end I decided I would just leave it and accept that the Trinity Doctrine was correct even though I felt that I was being untrue to the conviction in my heart. I based this decision on making other Christians feel uncomfortable with me as they assumed I was erring from the faith. In hindsight, I can see my problem was based in the fear of man. Truth should always override what people think.

It was some years later that God made me face my belief in the Trinity again and he kept putting certain scriptures in front of me to provoke me to test this belief. In the end I decided that I would not run away from this anymore, and I did a full study of the subject where God divinely lead me to a new scripture almost one each day. Each scripture in succession built a picture that really helped me to understand what God was conveying to me. While I had and continue to have a clear understanding of what the Trinity Doctrine teaches, the challenge was about seeing whether the Trinity Doctrine was a biblical doctrine.

What I discovered was very interesting and I will condense what I have been shown below.

  1. The Trinity Doctrine is not taught anywhere in scripture, but trinities were common in Paganism. They are rooted in Babylon, prominent in Egypt, still exist in India, and is the foundation of Roman Catholicism.
  2. The beginnings of recognition of this doctrine for Christianity started at the Council of Nicea approximately 325 AD. Hundreds of years after the last book in the Bible was written.
  3. The Council of Nicea was organized by the Roman Emperor Constantine and he had the final say on matters that he had little understanding of. He was also head of the Pagan religions.
  4. During and after the Holy Roman Empire, creed followed creed, and eventually idols were accepted as forms that we can worship God through. Mary was exalted to Mother of God (a title that goes back to Babylon) and worship of the saints was also sanctioned.
  5. The organized church we see today was built on top of these creeds. The creeds were and are the foundation for many of today’s churches/denominations. These denominations are not to be confused with the Body of Christ spoken of in the scripture. Most denominations are still rooted in a Trinitarian creed of some kind. So their foundation is the Trinity which came from Babylon.
  6. The mother of these denominations the Roman Catholic Church murdered approximately 50 million people, had armies which Jesus said his church did not need, and banned access to scripture to Christians. This time is known by the descriptive term, ‘The Dark Ages’.
  7. Some relief came during the Reformation where the teachings and authority of the Catholic Church were challenged. The Reformation restored many truths back to the Body of Christ.
  8. As a result of the Reformation, many new denominations started up, but they too held onto some of the creeds including the Trinity Doctrine.
  9. Babylon means confusion and the foundation of most denominations is the Trinity Doctrine which is confusing to all, even proponents of the doctrine. We are told to come out Babylon the Mystery religion lest we partake in her sins and iniquity. Who is Babylon? She is the mother of all harlots and the kings of the Earth have committed adultery with her. She is the religious system that was rooted in Babylon and she has made the whole world drunk on her wine.

History of the Trinity

From a historical point of view it seems strange to me that one of the pillars of Christianity didn’t come into existence or wasn’t recognized until 300 years after the death of Christ. On this point alone, I think its strange that we are encouraged not to question this doctrine and worse still, the the circumstances in which this doctrine came about should lead any clear thinking person to be at least suspicious.

In addition to that, the fruit of this doctrine appears to be bad. We know that one lie leads to another and history shows us that making Jesus God, opened the door for Mary to become the mother of God. Further, if Mary is the Mother of God, then that opens the door to the worship of other humans or saints.

In Revelation 17 we read about the ‘Mother of Harlots’ or the Great Prostitute who sits on many waters. Many people have speculated on her identity. Some say it is New York or the USA, others say it is Rome. If you are not familiar with this section of scripture, then it would pay to read it now before reading on.

Lets imagine for a minute that it is Rome as Rome is after all known to this day as the city of 7 hills. Now Constantine the Roman Emperor who dictated to the church so called truth becomes the original model of the person we call the Pope today. The Pope sits on a throne with supreme authority to dictate so called truth to the Roman Catholic Church. The Roman Catholic Church admits by it’s very name that it’s roots are in Rome and many of the traditions she adheres to come from Pagan traditions and festivals and were re-branded as Christian back in the days of Emperor Constantine. In one sense we can see that these creeds led to the worship of idols and men and changed the truth of God to a lie. But in order for these man-made creeds and lies to be administered and managed, there needed to exist some kind of organization of man to manage the politics of enforcing such creeds. The organizations are of course the organized churches of which the Catholic church is perhaps the mother which would make the smaller denominations the harlots or daughters of the harlot. The term ‘Mother of Harlots’ of course leads us to wonder who the daughters or offspring are. We also read that the kings of the earth have committed adultery with this harlot and we all know that many world leaders befriend the organized church so they can leverage her influence for their own political agendas and to gain votes. There will however come a time when God will call his children out of her because he will judge her quickly.

Babel, Babylon, Egypt, and Rome all have one thing in common. Their motives were to become great and make a name themselves. They also built structures as a way of showing their greatness and prowess. But the spirit of Babylon, Egypt, and Rome also enslave the children of God and also hated them to the point of death. In Rev 17 we read that the woman was drunk on the blood of the saints and is guilty of all the martyrs. History also records the dreadful killings of Christians by Rome and the enslavement of Israel by Egypt, but how many people are aware that the Catholic Church is also responsible for burning to death millions of people including Christians. They were killed as ‘heretics’ for things like reading scripture, translating scripture, or daring to obey the scriptures instead of their traditions.

Many denominations today still operate under this spirit of control including the persecution of those who question doctrines like the Trinity. Try questioning this doctrine in any denomination that is built on this creed, and watch the horror on people’s faces and the warnings that will proceed thereafter.

We know from scripture that the curse of Babel was division. The Babylonians built a tower in their name and God divided their language to weaken them, lest they succeed in all kinds of wickedness. But this spirit also exists in the organised churches. Each Denomination has its own creed, its own leaders and own customs or tradition, and they are all about making a name for themselves. They build towers in their name and in times past the steeples on these structure were the tallest structures in their communities. Now can you see that denominations are really just the divided languages of Christianity, just the same as divisions caused by multiple natural languages resulting from Babel. And the reason for this division is not what many think, it is so they cannot together succeed at works of iniquity and while in this divisive state, they cannot accomplish anything their hearts desire. True unity is extremely important and something that God will bring about and is already doing. But unity in the love and truth of God is paramount, not unity in making a name for themselves. People are misguided when they think that it would be a good thing if all the denominations united under one banner. What is better it people uniting in the truth because of their love of God and all things that are of him.

Denominations and their Trinity foundation

But doesn’t God use denominations to spread his gospel?. The quick answer to this is God uses men to do his work. If these men are part of a denomination or not, God uses the man, not the building and not the system. If you look into this you will likely find that the system actually hinders men in being led the the Spirit of God and the system itself takes up much resources to run, when instead such resources could help the poor and needy.

Many are being used by God for his purposes and this has been true since the birth of the Church. In times of great ignorance, it appears that God does compromise for our benefit. He works with what he can and we often limit God. But God is constantly trying to give us access to his limitless resources. In this age of denominations, it is hard to accept that there really is only one church built on the foundation of Christ and the Apostles. The only divisions are actually geographical divisions. The 7 churches in Revelation for example aren’t 7 separate churches, but 7 cities in which the Church resides. For example, in the Book of Revelation where it says: “to the Church in Laodecia”, it is saying to the Body of Christ in that particular city. We need to open our eyes in order to see the real Church. When you can really see the Body of Christ, you will never again say, I am going to church, because you will realize that we are the Church regardless of your location. This explains why we also read in 1 Corinthians 16:19: “The churches of Asia send greetings to you. Aquila and Prisca greet you warmly in the Lord, with the church that meets in their house.”. So this simply means the part of the Church that meets in that house. It was not a denomination like we see today.

Most denominations today have a Statement of Faith as their foundation and these are usually based on creeds formed centuries ago, but centuries after the Bible was first penned. Often Christians are invited or required to take out membership and that often requires an acceptance of a particular Statement of Faith. This sort of thing is common, yet it is unscriptural and deceives people into thinking that the denomination is the Church. They also think that once they have membership they belong to the Church. This couldn’t be further from the truth. Anyone can agree to a Statement of Faith or a Creed, even a mass murderer could do that. True Believers believe that Jesus Christ is the Lord, the Son of God, and the Messiah. The true Church is made up of God’s children and He dwells in them via his Spirit. Denominations on the other hand can contain true believers, but they can also contain non-believers, criminals, and unrepentant sinners. All true believers should use scripture and the Word of God as our Statement of Faith and we should realize that there is only One Church called the Body of Christ. The head of the true Church is Jesus Christ himself, not a Pope, Archbishop, or a president. We would do well to keep away from the words, wisdom and traditions of men.

The truth about God and who he is

Now the Trinity Doctrine says that God is made up of three persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. But the truth is that the Father is the only true God. So who is the son? Easy. He is the son of this God.

John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

The above scripture is not to be taken lightly. Do not pass over it until you have grasped it. After all, it is eternal life and isn’t that the point of having faith in God?

Ephesians 4:4-6
4 there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Clearly, the God and Father of all is the Father and not Jesus. Jesus is the Lord according to the above scripture.

Instead of using the Trinity to describe the God and his relationship with his Son. how about use Jesus own words. Are not his words better than some creed that came from man? John 15:1-2
1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.
2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

This scripture shows the same 3 levels that we see in the scripture below. Note: The word head means authority, head or source.

1 Corinthians 11:3
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

The true doctrine & foundation

The scriptures show us that we believers are united in doctrine by believing the following:

  • God exists and rewards those that seek him.
  • We must repent of our sins and turn to God and serve him.
  • Jesus is the only way to God and we should be baptized into his name.
  • Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.
  • Jesus died for our sins and was raised from the dead to the highest position (throne), that he may present us to God, holy and sanctified.
  • Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to the Church.
  • The Spirit of God leads us and teaches us all things.
  • That Jesus will return to earth and all the earthly kingdoms will fall. The Kingdom of God will come to earth.
I can have true unity of purpose with anyone that believes these points. The Trinity should never be pushed or taught as a doctrine, but today it is taught not only as a doctrine, but a foundational doctrine. However the Trinity Doctrine as a foundation is actually another foundation. Another foundation is not the same as the true foundation.

1 Corinthians 3:11
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Now Matthew 16:13-18 has a key for us.
13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.

Jesus commends Peter when he declares that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. Now Peter never said that Jesus was God at that opportune moment, but I am sure that many Christians given the same question today would say that he is God, yet that answer is different to the one Peter was commended for. Jesus actually built his Church on this truth, so it is obvious from this alone that the Trinity Doctrine is not the foundation of Jesus Church.

Now it is easy to show scriptures that show the Father to be God and there also appear to be a few scriptures that say that Jesus is God (Elohim, Theos). Most of the time Jesus is referred to as the Son of God. Even the Devil and demons called him the Son of God. See Matthew 8:29 & Matthew 4:3-6

But a lot of people also ignore the fact that we humans are also called Gods. John 10:34 uses the word “theos” to describe Man.
Psalms 82:6 uses the word “Elohim” to describe Man.

The word God is also used for Idols and Satan.
Exodus 20:23 uses the word “elohim” to describe Idols.
2 Corinthians 4:4 uses the word “theos” of this world to describe Satan.

But it must be made clear that ‘Elohim’ and ‘Theos’ are not names of God, they are titles in the same way Master is a title. When we see the word God, it is important to read the adjectives to see what kind of God is being referred to. E.g. the Most High God (the Father) is different to the God of this age (Satan).

Now there are many gods as I have pointed out, but the Father is the Most High God. See 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 which says
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Also remember that Jesus calls us brethren/brothers. But to the Father we are his children or offspring.

Now Psalm 2:7 says
“I will declare the decree: Yahweh hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.”

So the name of the Most High God is (YHWH) which is referred to by scholars as Yahweh. So Yahweh (God) is the Father of Jesus. So it is clear that Jesus is not Yahweh. He is Yahweh’s Son. Now Jesus in Hebrew is Yashua and he is never referred to as Yahweh. Yashua means “Yahweh saves” or “Yahweh is salvation”. So God’s name is in his son’s name. (Yah)

Ephesians 3:14-15
14 For this reason I kneel before the Father,
15 from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name.

Just like Trinitarians today, the Jews thought that Jesus was claiming to be God, but Jesus defended this accusation with the following words in John 10:34-36
34 “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are gods’?
35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came and the Scripture cannot be broken
36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?

So the Jews accused Jesus of saying he was God and instead of agreeing and saying something like “Yes I am God” Jesus defended himself with the statement “You are Gods (theos) and then he stresses that he was claiming to be the Son of God.” Many Christians still make the same mistake today. Read John 10:27-36 to read the above words of Jesus in context. In that context, Jesus even said to the Jews that the Father was greater than himself.

Who and what is Jesus

So who is Jesus. The following Statements are from the scriptures, and should be the words that we trust in in order to understand who Jesus really is.

  • God has spoken to us through the Prophets and now his Son.
    See Hebrews 1:1-6
  • The Son is the exact brightness of God’s glory.
    See Hebrews 1:1-6
  • He is the image of the invisible God.
    See Colossians 1:12-16
  • God sustains all things by his Word (Jesus is the Word of God).
    See Hebrews 1:1-6 & John 1:1
  • He is seated at the right hand of God.
    See Colossians 3:1-3
  • He inherited a name more superior to the Angels.
    See Hebrews 1:1-6
  • He is worthy to be worshipped by Angels.
    See Hebrews 1:1-6
  • God became a Father when he begat his son “You are my Son, today I have become your Father”.
    See Hebrews 1:1-6
  • He is the Firstborn from the Dead.
    See Revelation 1:4-6
  • Jesus has first place in everything.
    See Colossians 1:18
  • Jesus is head over the Church.
    See Ephesians 1:22
  • He is Gods firstborn.
    See Hebrews 1:1-6
  • Jesus is the Ruler or Beginning of the Creation of God.
    See Revelation 3:14
  • Jesus is begotten, not created.
    See John 1:3
The last scripture above, shows us that Jesus was not created. Many other scriptures show us that Jesus is begotten (born). See John 1:18 & John 3:18

Jesus is truly the only begotten Son of God. Yes we too are the Sons of God, but we were begotten from God through his Word (Christ). All creation was made this way. But Jesus was begotten directly from God and he is the exact image of God. And we (the church) are the image of Christ. Again I point out the importance of 1Corinthians 11:3 and Colossians 2:8-10 which says,
in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.

Here we can see clearly that Christ is the fullness of God and we the Church are the fullness of Christ. So consider this, if we use this scripture to say that Jesus is God, then in all fairness we have to conclude that we are Christ. This is of course a misinterpretation of scripture. The truth is that Jesus has the divine nature and God also wants us to share that nature too. So just as the Deity is in Christ, Christ is in us.

To be divine and to be the Divine is two different things. One identifies a nature and the other identifies a person. God is the Divine and he shares his nature with his sons who are part of his family. Christ has divine nature as the Son is like his Father. But did you know hat we can also partake of the divine nature and still not be God? And if you understand that, then it must be that if Jesus has divine nature, then that also does not make him God.

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Moving on, Matthew 24:36 shows us clearly that the Son doesn’t know everything, yet God is all knowing.
“No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. My confession is that Jesus Christ is Lord and I believe that all will confess this one day. And I also believe that God is Spirit and Invisible and that he resides inside and outside of his creation. See 2 Chronicles 2:6. Similar to physical light, it is invisible except that it reveals all things. Now when light strikes a prism it reflects all the colours and this is like Christ. He reveals and reflects God who is light. Jesus reveals the Invisible Spirit who dwells in him. Jesus has a body and the glory of God is visible to us in Christ. There is no other way for us to se God or to know God or to fellowship with God. Jesus is the only Mediator between Man and God.

Colossians 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Jesus is the Image of God and he is seated on the Fathers throne above creation and Jesus seats us on his throne.

Revelation 3:21
To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne. Jesus calls his Father, God and he says that his God is also our God. See John 20:17
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ ” & Revelation 1:1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Also in John 8:28 we read the following:
Jesus said “I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me”

Now 1 Corinthians 15:27 shows us clearly that Jesus is not God.
27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When the Most High God is being referred to, it is always talking about the Father.

John 3:16 says
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Conclusion

To sum up: 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 embodies what I am saying.
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

The Trinity makes and idol out of God. Its no different to making a graven image from your hands as it is to make God into a form in your mind or using a diagram to depict him. It is the nature of Man to do this. The Trinity and Nicene Creed is the founding document to the man made organized religion that has suppressed and kept in fear many of Gods people. Upon that creed many heresies followed. If its origin is man then its fruit will be death, control and fear and history has revealed the fruit of this doctrine. God is a person and the Trinity Doctrine says that God is a class/family. We know that there are many gods, so the word ‘god’ can be used in the sense of class, but there is only one God the person otherwise there would be more than 1 God. I and many others including the Jews believe that God is a person, not an organization. Perhaps God is calling us out of Egypt and her gods. This is where the Trinity Doctrine came from and the Egyptians already worshipped a Trinity before the gospel reached them. All they did was replace the names. But the concept remains the same. A Christian appearance but a pagan heart. Two more scriptures before I finish.

Proverbs 8:22-30 Talks about someone who was brought forth by God, yet existed before creation and witnessed God creating the Cosmos.
Matthew 3:17 says “And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased” So WHO is Jesus? He is the Christ, the Son of God, the Word of God, the Image of God and the Wisdom of God. He is of God and shares his nature, but he is not that God in identity. The true God is his Father and our Father.

For a more in depth look at this subject, see the writing The Trinity Doctrine.

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  • #793201
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi BD,

    Do you have to go into a certain building to pray?

    True believers worship in spirit and truth.

    They are temples of the holy Spirit.

    #793202
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi BD,

    Do you rely on men for guidance?

    Why not follow the one you call the messiah?

    #793252
    AndrewAD
    Participant

    Nick,you ask if Bd relies on men for guidance,but to you Jesus Messiah is a mere man and you rely on him for guidance right?

    #793253
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Andrew,

    We know longer speak of Jesus according to the flesh.

    The Word made flesh is the voice of God.

    Flesh contributes nothing

    #793256
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Andrew,

    Can you follow the man Jesus?

    Can you too become a vessel suitable for God to use for his purposes?

     

     

    #793261
    DavidL
    Participant

    Kerwin

    Philippians 2:6 – “who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped.”

    you say…

    I do not believe God has an outer form..

    if you say God has no form.. then how was man created in His image…?

    again, if God has no outer form.. then who did Moses see on mount Sinai, that told him, “Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen.”..??

    But.. whatever your strange idea of God’s form is, or isn’t – this verse clearly shows that Jesus existed with God before His earthly birth..

     

    John 17:5 – “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”

    This is Jesus asking God to fulfill what the plan God has had for Jesus since before the world began..

    so….the glory Jesus had with God before the world began.. was just a ‘plan’ ..!!??

    are you kidding..?

    how do you concoct these strange ideas when Scripture is so clear..??

     

    “He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.”

    We have the abstract concept of the Word of God personalized as a male..

    Jesus is the incarnation of the abstract concept of God’s word..

    your abstract concept of the Word of God seems to fall short of John’s revelation of Jesus as the Word… you also seem to nullify God’s Word with your vague concepts, much like the Pharisees did with their man-made doctrines..

     

    The Scriptures teach plainly that Jesus preexisted with God, in the form of God, as God…

    Maybe your own concepts (like t8) have also been formed out of bias against the trinity – but they are definitely not the product of Divine inspiration..!!

     

    #793330
    carmel
    Participant

     

    I do not believe God has an outer form as he existed before he created space and if there is no space there is no outer form. That is why he is called the invisible God.

    Kerwin,

    You consider yourself well informed but then you say: I DO NOT BELIEVE …….

    That PHRASE is the easiest solution to all God’s mysteries! SINCE WE ARE IN THE FAITH PROCESS!

    NOW I TELL YOU THIS , WHETHER YOU BELIEVE IT OR NOT:

    GOD HAS A BODY!

    BUT THE FACT THAT HE IS

    INVISIBLE IT IS NOT BECAUSE HE HASN’T A BODY, SINCE WE CANNOT SEE OTHER CREATURES WHO HAS A MICRO BODY!

    BUT SIMPLY BECAUSE GOD’S UNIQUE SUBSTANCE IS THE TINIEST DUST LIKE BODY WHICH IS NEVER POSSIBLE TO INVENT A MICROSCOPE IN ORDER TO MAKE IT VISIBLE THROUGH IT!

    In order for God to create, He compresses his spirit,IN VARIOUS MYRIAD KINDS OF SUBSTANCES!

    IN THIS WAY GOD WOULD BE IN ALL THE ENTIRE EXISTENCE! NO MATTER WHAT!

    SO TINY BUT SO ALMIGHTY!

    THE PARADOX OF GOD

    IN FACT SPIRITS DO NOT VANISH ACTUALLY BUT SIMPLY BECOME IN AN EXTREME SPEED DUST, AND SPREAD INTO THE ENTIRE SPACE!

    I believe that all spirits are around us, both angels and devils, and on JESUS’ order they simply move accordingly!

    ALSO JESUS IS THE ONLY BEING THAT OWNS THE QUALITY WITHIN HIMSELF TO BE IN FLESH LIKE OURS!

    ALL OTHER SPIRITS ALTHOUGH THEY FORM THE HUMAN BODY, THEY REMAIN COMPRESSED SPIRITS!

    ONE MORE THING!

    THE FACT THAT JESUS ENTERED THROUGH WALLS, DUE TO THE FACT THAT HIS SUBSTANCE IS THAT TINY, GODLY, THAT WITH EXTREME SPEED HE GOES THROUGH THE POURS OF ALL MATTER!

     

    reflect on this verse:

    Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread till thou return to the earth, out of which thou wast taken:

    FOR DUST YOU ARE, AND INTO DUST YOU SHALL RETURN.

    NOTICE WHILE ADAM WAS STILL ALIVE GOD CALLED HIM:

    DUST!

    WHICH IS A REFERENCE TO THE SPIRITUAL DUST ELEMENT!

    AND THIS WAS DIRECTED TO SATAN, IN THE TRUTH, NOT TO ADAM, SINCE SATAN ENTERED FOR THE FIRST EVER TIME IN A HUMAN BEING, AND PARTICIPATED FOR THE FIRST EVER TIME IN THE PROCESS OF SOULS THOUGH OUR WORLD! HIS EX SPIRIT SUBSTANCE! LUCIFER!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #793335
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Davidl,

    The Word was with God.

    Jesus was conceived.

     

    The will of God was done when the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us and Jesus became a vessel for the Word.

    #793336
    kerwin
    Participant

    Carmel,

    God created space and time. Space is the dimensions of height, length, and width. My body occupies those three dimensions as does anyone else s. To believe God has a body then you must also believe that the three dimensions of space have always existed for that body to exist.

    Angels are not always hidden from the sight of humans. In one case God chose to blind the human to the presence of an angel but allowed the donkey on which that human sat to see it. That donkey avoided the angel by avoiding the three of space that angel took up. God is everywhere that his creation is because he is like love which is everywhere that people experience it. He is outside of creation but his creatures cannot go there. That is because his creation cannot contain him.

    #793339
    kerwin
    Participant

    DavidL,

    Scripture tells us that man was created upright and then went in search of many schemes. Humanity was created in the inner form of God but rebelled and so corrupted that form. Jesus sacrificed himself that humanity would return to that form, a form he, himself bore.

    Even if God had an outer form it is not what is important to the Spiritually minded. The Spiritually minded are those that hunger and thirst to become righteous as God is righteous. Like one that hungers for food and thirsts for drink they just want to have these needs filled. Paul is taking care of these sheep with his words.

    #793341
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi KW,

    When Adam submitted to the serpent he received the inheritance of sin in the flesh.

    To be freed he need to repent of his idolatry and by the help of the promised Spirit become an overcomer.

    #793344
    DavidL
    Participant

    Kerwin

    Even if God had an outer form it is not what is important to the Spiritually minded.

    Philippians 2:6 says that Jesus existed before His life on earth, in the FORM of God…(NOT in some abstract concept or plan…but as a literal Being united with the Father)

    Colossians says, “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities – all things have been created through Him and for Him.…”

    Jesus prayed, “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”

    John says, “He was in the world, and the world was made through Him…He was in the beginning with God…”

     

    These all testify to the preexistence of Jesus as a literal Being – and NOT just as some abstract idea…

    #793347
    kerwin
    Participant

    DavidL,

    again, if God has no outer form.. then who did Moses see on mount Sinai, that told him, “Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen.”..??

    Paul teaches us that the Law of Moses was given by angels in Galatians 3:19 and the writer of Hebrews agrees with the words in chapter 2:2 of that book.

    #793349
    DavidL
    Participant

    so…according to your teaching Moses didn’t actually communicate with or see the image of God – but an angel…?

    #793353
    DavidL
    Participant

    @t8

    “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.” (notice – “the only true God AND Jesus Christ”…two that are one.)

    lol DavidL. I see your reasoning tacks on the end the words, “the two are one” when it doesn’t say that.

    This is your bias kicking in.

    no reasoning – just comparing Scripture with Scripture…. and pointing out how the verses you use actually confirm the very thing you are trying to deny… (the sad folly of relying on your own reasoning for spiritual enlightenment..!!)

     

    Jesus said, “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.”

    Jesus said, “If you have seen Me you have seen the Father.”

    Jesus said, “I and the Father are One.”

     

    Maybe your sponge is a little too full of your own doctrine to discern the reality of Jesus Christ…?

    #793356
    kerwin
    Participant

    DavidL

    Colossians says, “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities – all things have been created through Him and for Him.…”

    This is a passage that I am not quite sure of the idea that Paul is teaching us. I get the broad outline but the details are blurry. The easiest way to view it is that Paul is speaking of the new creation but another way is the Paul us speaking of the Spirit or Word of God that is within Jesus Christ.

    The whole idea of the new covenant is that those whom are not in him, enter into him. Going with that thought verse 17 teaches us he is first of all things and through him they are united.

    I favor the first one as Paul’s speaks elsewhere of the new creation and does not seem to be speaking as a Hellenized Jew to other Hellenized Jews. The second option is more like the writings of John or of Philo of Alexander and so I do not think it is the correct understanding.

    #793357
    kerwin
    Participant

    Nick,

    Hi KW,

    When Adam submitted to the serpent he received the inheritance of sin in the flesh.

    To be freed he need to repent of his idolatry and by the help of the promised Spirit become an overcomer.

    That is about the way I understand it. I do not think we should understand the words flesh in a literal manner.

    #793358
    bodhitharta
    Participant

    DavidL

    Jesus said, “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.”

    First thing, do you notice Jesus is speaking? but he says that they may know “you” is Jesus calling himself “you”? if not then he cannot be calling himself the ONLY TRUE GOD or for that matter he can’t even be part of the reference but then on top of that he says the the “you” who is the ONLY TRUE GOD “SENT” him (Jesus Christ) If the ONLY TRUE GOD “sent” another being such as the one speaking then the ONLY TRUE GOD was not sent because He did the sending.

    #793360
    kerwin
    Participant

    DavidL,

    You contradict yourself constantly about reasoning and so I get the idea you have no idea what you are speaking of. You cannot compare two scriptures to each other unless you use reasoning.

    Paul is recorded as reasoning using Scriptures in Acts 17:2. You have lied repeatedly and it is necessary for you to realize this is so in order for you to discover your teachings to not always agree with Scripture. It is not a sin to use reason but instead God instructs you to reason with him and to test the spirits of what you hear and believe.

    #793365
    bodhitharta
    Participant

    DavidL

    Exodus 3:2
    And the angel of Jehovah appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

    Acts 7:30
    And when forty years were fulfilled, an angel appeared to him in the wilderness of Mount Sinai, in a flame of fire in a bush.

    See David you just need to work it out

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