Testing the Trinity

Trinity Painting

 

The Spirit is the Spirit OF God
Yeshua is the son OF God.
So is the Father, the Father OF God?

No, the Father is never referred to as the Father of God, by teachers or in the Bible. That is because there is no doubt among Christians that the Father is God and not OF him. Even Paul stated this when he said, “for us there is one God the Father”. Today’s confession however, goes more like this: “for us there is one God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit”. So why is today’s language describing God different to what we read in scripture? What is going on?

The journey to answer this question and other related questions about the Trinity goes back a few decades for me. God had challenged my belief on the Trinity while I blindly believed and accepted the Trinity Doctrine as a pillar of my faith and assumed that it was the foundation of Christianity. But like most Christians, I had never really check it out. I knew at the time that God wants us to know intimately what we believe in and to test all things and also to watch our doctrine closely so we do not become deceived.

What I discovered about the Trinity

With a conviction in my heart to test the Trinity Doctrine, I embarked on reading scriptures that described God and to test the verses that are used to support the Trinity, but what I found truly challenged my belief in the Trinity. However, when I brought the subject up with other Christians while I was investigating this, there seemed to be this “do not question attitude” and in the end I decided I would just leave it and accept that the Trinity Doctrine was correct even though I felt that I was being untrue to the conviction in my heart. I based this decision on making other Christians feel uncomfortable with me as they assumed I was erring from the faith. In hindsight, I can see my problem was based in the fear of man. Truth should always override what people think.

It was some years later that God made me face my belief in the Trinity again and he kept putting certain scriptures in front of me to provoke me to test this belief. In the end I decided that I would not run away from this anymore, and I did a full study of the subject where God divinely lead me to a new scripture almost one each day. Each scripture in succession built a picture that really helped me to understand what God was conveying to me. While I had and continue to have a clear understanding of what the Trinity Doctrine teaches, the challenge was about seeing whether the Trinity Doctrine was a biblical doctrine.

What I discovered was very interesting and I will condense what I have been shown below.

  1. The Trinity Doctrine is not taught anywhere in scripture, but trinities were common in Paganism. They are rooted in Babylon, prominent in Egypt, still exist in India, and is the foundation of Roman Catholicism.
  2. The beginnings of recognition of this doctrine for Christianity started at the Council of Nicea approximately 325 AD. Hundreds of years after the last book in the Bible was written.
  3. The Council of Nicea was organized by the Roman Emperor Constantine and he had the final say on matters that he had little understanding of. He was also head of the Pagan religions.
  4. During and after the Holy Roman Empire, creed followed creed, and eventually idols were accepted as forms that we can worship God through. Mary was exalted to Mother of God (a title that goes back to Babylon) and worship of the saints was also sanctioned.
  5. The organized church we see today was built on top of these creeds. The creeds were and are the foundation for many of today’s churches/denominations. These denominations are not to be confused with the Body of Christ spoken of in the scripture. Most denominations are still rooted in a Trinitarian creed of some kind. So their foundation is the Trinity which came from Babylon.
  6. The mother of these denominations the Roman Catholic Church murdered approximately 50 million people, had armies which Jesus said his church did not need, and banned access to scripture to Christians. This time is known by the descriptive term, ‘The Dark Ages’.
  7. Some relief came during the Reformation where the teachings and authority of the Catholic Church were challenged. The Reformation restored many truths back to the Body of Christ.
  8. As a result of the Reformation, many new denominations started up, but they too held onto some of the creeds including the Trinity Doctrine.
  9. Babylon means confusion and the foundation of most denominations is the Trinity Doctrine which is confusing to all, even proponents of the doctrine. We are told to come out Babylon the Mystery religion lest we partake in her sins and iniquity. Who is Babylon? She is the mother of all harlots and the kings of the Earth have committed adultery with her. She is the religious system that was rooted in Babylon and she has made the whole world drunk on her wine.

History of the Trinity

From a historical point of view it seems strange to me that one of the pillars of Christianity didn’t come into existence or wasn’t recognized until 300 years after the death of Christ. On this point alone, I think its strange that we are encouraged not to question this doctrine and worse still, the the circumstances in which this doctrine came about should lead any clear thinking person to be at least suspicious.

In addition to that, the fruit of this doctrine appears to be bad. We know that one lie leads to another and history shows us that making Jesus God, opened the door for Mary to become the mother of God. Further, if Mary is the Mother of God, then that opens the door to the worship of other humans or saints.

In Revelation 17 we read about the ‘Mother of Harlots’ or the Great Prostitute who sits on many waters. Many people have speculated on her identity. Some say it is New York or the USA, others say it is Rome. If you are not familiar with this section of scripture, then it would pay to read it now before reading on.

Lets imagine for a minute that it is Rome as Rome is after all known to this day as the city of 7 hills. Now Constantine the Roman Emperor who dictated to the church so called truth becomes the original model of the person we call the Pope today. The Pope sits on a throne with supreme authority to dictate so called truth to the Roman Catholic Church. The Roman Catholic Church admits by it’s very name that it’s roots are in Rome and many of the traditions she adheres to come from Pagan traditions and festivals and were re-branded as Christian back in the days of Emperor Constantine. In one sense we can see that these creeds led to the worship of idols and men and changed the truth of God to a lie. But in order for these man-made creeds and lies to be administered and managed, there needed to exist some kind of organization of man to manage the politics of enforcing such creeds. The organizations are of course the organized churches of which the Catholic church is perhaps the mother which would make the smaller denominations the harlots or daughters of the harlot. The term ‘Mother of Harlots’ of course leads us to wonder who the daughters or offspring are. We also read that the kings of the earth have committed adultery with this harlot and we all know that many world leaders befriend the organized church so they can leverage her influence for their own political agendas and to gain votes. There will however come a time when God will call his children out of her because he will judge her quickly.

Babel, Babylon, Egypt, and Rome all have one thing in common. Their motives were to become great and make a name themselves. They also built structures as a way of showing their greatness and prowess. But the spirit of Babylon, Egypt, and Rome also enslave the children of God and also hated them to the point of death. In Rev 17 we read that the woman was drunk on the blood of the saints and is guilty of all the martyrs. History also records the dreadful killings of Christians by Rome and the enslavement of Israel by Egypt, but how many people are aware that the Catholic Church is also responsible for burning to death millions of people including Christians. They were killed as ‘heretics’ for things like reading scripture, translating scripture, or daring to obey the scriptures instead of their traditions.

Many denominations today still operate under this spirit of control including the persecution of those who question doctrines like the Trinity. Try questioning this doctrine in any denomination that is built on this creed, and watch the horror on people’s faces and the warnings that will proceed thereafter.

We know from scripture that the curse of Babel was division. The Babylonians built a tower in their name and God divided their language to weaken them, lest they succeed in all kinds of wickedness. But this spirit also exists in the organised churches. Each Denomination has its own creed, its own leaders and own customs or tradition, and they are all about making a name for themselves. They build towers in their name and in times past the steeples on these structure were the tallest structures in their communities. Now can you see that denominations are really just the divided languages of Christianity, just the same as divisions caused by multiple natural languages resulting from Babel. And the reason for this division is not what many think, it is so they cannot together succeed at works of iniquity and while in this divisive state, they cannot accomplish anything their hearts desire. True unity is extremely important and something that God will bring about and is already doing. But unity in the love and truth of God is paramount, not unity in making a name for themselves. People are misguided when they think that it would be a good thing if all the denominations united under one banner. What is better it people uniting in the truth because of their love of God and all things that are of him.

Denominations and their Trinity foundation

But doesn’t God use denominations to spread his gospel?. The quick answer to this is God uses men to do his work. If these men are part of a denomination or not, God uses the man, not the building and not the system. If you look into this you will likely find that the system actually hinders men in being led the the Spirit of God and the system itself takes up much resources to run, when instead such resources could help the poor and needy.

Many are being used by God for his purposes and this has been true since the birth of the Church. In times of great ignorance, it appears that God does compromise for our benefit. He works with what he can and we often limit God. But God is constantly trying to give us access to his limitless resources. In this age of denominations, it is hard to accept that there really is only one church built on the foundation of Christ and the Apostles. The only divisions are actually geographical divisions. The 7 churches in Revelation for example aren’t 7 separate churches, but 7 cities in which the Church resides. For example, in the Book of Revelation where it says: “to the Church in Laodecia”, it is saying to the Body of Christ in that particular city. We need to open our eyes in order to see the real Church. When you can really see the Body of Christ, you will never again say, I am going to church, because you will realize that we are the Church regardless of your location. This explains why we also read in 1 Corinthians 16:19: “The churches of Asia send greetings to you. Aquila and Prisca greet you warmly in the Lord, with the church that meets in their house.”. So this simply means the part of the Church that meets in that house. It was not a denomination like we see today.

Most denominations today have a Statement of Faith as their foundation and these are usually based on creeds formed centuries ago, but centuries after the Bible was first penned. Often Christians are invited or required to take out membership and that often requires an acceptance of a particular Statement of Faith. This sort of thing is common, yet it is unscriptural and deceives people into thinking that the denomination is the Church. They also think that once they have membership they belong to the Church. This couldn’t be further from the truth. Anyone can agree to a Statement of Faith or a Creed, even a mass murderer could do that. True Believers believe that Jesus Christ is the Lord, the Son of God, and the Messiah. The true Church is made up of God’s children and He dwells in them via his Spirit. Denominations on the other hand can contain true believers, but they can also contain non-believers, criminals, and unrepentant sinners. All true believers should use scripture and the Word of God as our Statement of Faith and we should realize that there is only One Church called the Body of Christ. The head of the true Church is Jesus Christ himself, not a Pope, Archbishop, or a president. We would do well to keep away from the words, wisdom and traditions of men.

The truth about God and who he is

Now the Trinity Doctrine says that God is made up of three persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. But the truth is that the Father is the only true God. So who is the son? Easy. He is the son of this God.

John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

The above scripture is not to be taken lightly. Do not pass over it until you have grasped it. After all, it is eternal life and isn’t that the point of having faith in God?

Ephesians 4:4-6
4 there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Clearly, the God and Father of all is the Father and not Jesus. Jesus is the Lord according to the above scripture.

Instead of using the Trinity to describe the God and his relationship with his Son. how about use Jesus own words. Are not his words better than some creed that came from man? John 15:1-2
1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.
2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

This scripture shows the same 3 levels that we see in the scripture below. Note: The word head means authority, head or source.

1 Corinthians 11:3
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

The true doctrine & foundation

The scriptures show us that we believers are united in doctrine by believing the following:

  • God exists and rewards those that seek him.
  • We must repent of our sins and turn to God and serve him.
  • Jesus is the only way to God and we should be baptized into his name.
  • Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.
  • Jesus died for our sins and was raised from the dead to the highest position (throne), that he may present us to God, holy and sanctified.
  • Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to the Church.
  • The Spirit of God leads us and teaches us all things.
  • That Jesus will return to earth and all the earthly kingdoms will fall. The Kingdom of God will come to earth.
I can have true unity of purpose with anyone that believes these points. The Trinity should never be pushed or taught as a doctrine, but today it is taught not only as a doctrine, but a foundational doctrine. However the Trinity Doctrine as a foundation is actually another foundation. Another foundation is not the same as the true foundation.

1 Corinthians 3:11
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Now Matthew 16:13-18 has a key for us.
13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.

Jesus commends Peter when he declares that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. Now Peter never said that Jesus was God at that opportune moment, but I am sure that many Christians given the same question today would say that he is God, yet that answer is different to the one Peter was commended for. Jesus actually built his Church on this truth, so it is obvious from this alone that the Trinity Doctrine is not the foundation of Jesus Church.

Now it is easy to show scriptures that show the Father to be God and there also appear to be a few scriptures that say that Jesus is God (Elohim, Theos). Most of the time Jesus is referred to as the Son of God. Even the Devil and demons called him the Son of God. See Matthew 8:29 & Matthew 4:3-6

But a lot of people also ignore the fact that we humans are also called Gods. John 10:34 uses the word “theos” to describe Man.
Psalms 82:6 uses the word “Elohim” to describe Man.

The word God is also used for Idols and Satan.
Exodus 20:23 uses the word “elohim” to describe Idols.
2 Corinthians 4:4 uses the word “theos” of this world to describe Satan.

But it must be made clear that ‘Elohim’ and ‘Theos’ are not names of God, they are titles in the same way Master is a title. When we see the word God, it is important to read the adjectives to see what kind of God is being referred to. E.g. the Most High God (the Father) is different to the God of this age (Satan).

Now there are many gods as I have pointed out, but the Father is the Most High God. See 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 which says
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Also remember that Jesus calls us brethren/brothers. But to the Father we are his children or offspring.

Now Psalm 2:7 says
“I will declare the decree: Yahweh hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.”

So the name of the Most High God is (YHWH) which is referred to by scholars as Yahweh. So Yahweh (God) is the Father of Jesus. So it is clear that Jesus is not Yahweh. He is Yahweh’s Son. Now Jesus in Hebrew is Yashua and he is never referred to as Yahweh. Yashua means “Yahweh saves” or “Yahweh is salvation”. So God’s name is in his son’s name. (Yah)

Ephesians 3:14-15
14 For this reason I kneel before the Father,
15 from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name.

Just like Trinitarians today, the Jews thought that Jesus was claiming to be God, but Jesus defended this accusation with the following words in John 10:34-36
34 “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are gods’?
35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came and the Scripture cannot be broken
36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?

So the Jews accused Jesus of saying he was God and instead of agreeing and saying something like “Yes I am God” Jesus defended himself with the statement “You are Gods (theos) and then he stresses that he was claiming to be the Son of God.” Many Christians still make the same mistake today. Read John 10:27-36 to read the above words of Jesus in context. In that context, Jesus even said to the Jews that the Father was greater than himself.

Who and what is Jesus

So who is Jesus. The following Statements are from the scriptures, and should be the words that we trust in in order to understand who Jesus really is.

  • God has spoken to us through the Prophets and now his Son.
    See Hebrews 1:1-6
  • The Son is the exact brightness of God’s glory.
    See Hebrews 1:1-6
  • He is the image of the invisible God.
    See Colossians 1:12-16
  • God sustains all things by his Word (Jesus is the Word of God).
    See Hebrews 1:1-6 & John 1:1
  • He is seated at the right hand of God.
    See Colossians 3:1-3
  • He inherited a name more superior to the Angels.
    See Hebrews 1:1-6
  • He is worthy to be worshipped by Angels.
    See Hebrews 1:1-6
  • God became a Father when he begat his son “You are my Son, today I have become your Father”.
    See Hebrews 1:1-6
  • He is the Firstborn from the Dead.
    See Revelation 1:4-6
  • Jesus has first place in everything.
    See Colossians 1:18
  • Jesus is head over the Church.
    See Ephesians 1:22
  • He is Gods firstborn.
    See Hebrews 1:1-6
  • Jesus is the Ruler or Beginning of the Creation of God.
    See Revelation 3:14
  • Jesus is begotten, not created.
    See John 1:3
The last scripture above, shows us that Jesus was not created. Many other scriptures show us that Jesus is begotten (born). See John 1:18 & John 3:18

Jesus is truly the only begotten Son of God. Yes we too are the Sons of God, but we were begotten from God through his Word (Christ). All creation was made this way. But Jesus was begotten directly from God and he is the exact image of God. And we (the church) are the image of Christ. Again I point out the importance of 1Corinthians 11:3 and Colossians 2:8-10 which says,
in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.

Here we can see clearly that Christ is the fullness of God and we the Church are the fullness of Christ. So consider this, if we use this scripture to say that Jesus is God, then in all fairness we have to conclude that we are Christ. This is of course a misinterpretation of scripture. The truth is that Jesus has the divine nature and God also wants us to share that nature too. So just as the Deity is in Christ, Christ is in us.

To be divine and to be the Divine is two different things. One identifies a nature and the other identifies a person. God is the Divine and he shares his nature with his sons who are part of his family. Christ has divine nature as the Son is like his Father. But did you know hat we can also partake of the divine nature and still not be God? And if you understand that, then it must be that if Jesus has divine nature, then that also does not make him God.

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Moving on, Matthew 24:36 shows us clearly that the Son doesn’t know everything, yet God is all knowing.
“No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. My confession is that Jesus Christ is Lord and I believe that all will confess this one day. And I also believe that God is Spirit and Invisible and that he resides inside and outside of his creation. See 2 Chronicles 2:6. Similar to physical light, it is invisible except that it reveals all things. Now when light strikes a prism it reflects all the colours and this is like Christ. He reveals and reflects God who is light. Jesus reveals the Invisible Spirit who dwells in him. Jesus has a body and the glory of God is visible to us in Christ. There is no other way for us to se God or to know God or to fellowship with God. Jesus is the only Mediator between Man and God.

Colossians 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Jesus is the Image of God and he is seated on the Fathers throne above creation and Jesus seats us on his throne.

Revelation 3:21
To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne. Jesus calls his Father, God and he says that his God is also our God. See John 20:17
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ ” & Revelation 1:1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Also in John 8:28 we read the following:
Jesus said “I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me”

Now 1 Corinthians 15:27 shows us clearly that Jesus is not God.
27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When the Most High God is being referred to, it is always talking about the Father.

John 3:16 says
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Conclusion

To sum up: 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 embodies what I am saying.
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

The Trinity makes and idol out of God. Its no different to making a graven image from your hands as it is to make God into a form in your mind or using a diagram to depict him. It is the nature of Man to do this. The Trinity and Nicene Creed is the founding document to the man made organized religion that has suppressed and kept in fear many of Gods people. Upon that creed many heresies followed. If its origin is man then its fruit will be death, control and fear and history has revealed the fruit of this doctrine. God is a person and the Trinity Doctrine says that God is a class/family. We know that there are many gods, so the word ‘god’ can be used in the sense of class, but there is only one God the person otherwise there would be more than 1 God. I and many others including the Jews believe that God is a person, not an organization. Perhaps God is calling us out of Egypt and her gods. This is where the Trinity Doctrine came from and the Egyptians already worshipped a Trinity before the gospel reached them. All they did was replace the names. But the concept remains the same. A Christian appearance but a pagan heart. Two more scriptures before I finish.

Proverbs 8:22-30 Talks about someone who was brought forth by God, yet existed before creation and witnessed God creating the Cosmos.
Matthew 3:17 says “And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased” So WHO is Jesus? He is the Christ, the Son of God, the Word of God, the Image of God and the Wisdom of God. He is of God and shares his nature, but he is not that God in identity. The true God is his Father and our Father.

For a more in depth look at this subject, see the writing The Trinity Doctrine.

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  • #778843
    Servant
    Guest

    I see some of the comments here and it makes me smile and I know it makes our creator smile too. It is a great feeling to see the truth of YHWH shining through and reaching those searching for it.

    Jesus is the first born of all creation (only begotten). Through him all other things were created. This is why you see the word “we” used in genesis. He was sent to redeem us all from sin, sacrificed himself as a spiritual creature above all the angels to become man… only to give that human life up for our sins – John 3:16. He is sometimes referred to as the “new Adam”. Adam (a perfect man) brought us sin, Jesus (a perfect man) took it away by sacrificing his blood as atonement. “Lamb of God” Jesus “bought us back” from the wages of sin (death) authority for forgiveness of sins is given to he who sits at the right hand of the father.

    Jehovah’s witnesses are telling you the truth, they always have. Remember how hard it was to believe the trinity was false doctrine? Seek the truth. Pray for guidance. Always check scripture and cross reference it. Do not follow the doctrine of Plato (man’s “wisdom”) follow the doctrine of he who holds the truth – Our creator. Halleluiah! Amen. This was a lovely essay.

    #778844
    Servant
    Guest

    All creation answers to God, even Jesus. God is the one who forgives…

    John 3:16 – “For God loved the world so much that he gave his only‐begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life” – This.

    #778845
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Thanks Servant. Although the Jehovah Witnesses are not the only denomination to reject the Trinity. That said, all these groups do have error too. But yes, as far as the Trinity being a false doctrine, they are correct.

    #778846
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Good advice Rodd.

    #778847
    Servant
    Guest

    Yes, all men are imperfect and make mistakes. The truth is found in God’s word. May he continue to guide and bless you as you seek purity and truth in worship. Thanks again, great read.

    #778848
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Thank you in the name of Jesus Christ.

    #778849
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Have you checked this out?

    The Trinity Doctrine

    🙂

    #778850
    Brian
    Guest

    Yeshua said, “all glory goes to the father, not unto me.” Paraphrase this and you get “worship god, not me”. Well, if Yeshua is god, why did he tell us to worship him and to not worship him at the same time? Sounds a little crazy to me. Furthermore, if we are created in the same image of god, them why do we heavily medicate people with split personalities? Because obviously, in a trinity concept, we find a god with three personalities, seperate and distinct. Maybe god needs his meds.
    Furthermore, the whole doctrine of the trinity wasn’t even penned until the council of nicea which was 300 years after the fact of a “living Christ”. The council was also heavily influenced by Roman leaders who were under orders to come up with one faith. However, at the council, half of the cardinals attending (mainly non-roman) believed that the Christ was not god in the flesh. Those who did not bow to the will of the roman hegemony were labeled heretics and killed thus ensuring a one true roman faith. But, why would a church need to kill dissidents? If the gospel of Christ is love then why use such force to ensure one belief? Doesn’t add up and seems like the early Catholic Church used some very unchristian means to ensure its dominace and faith born out of the council of nicea.

    #778851
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Totally agree with your post. Amazing how so many do not question and just accept some traditions, false doctrines, and bad fruit as if it were somehow an important truth. Where is their discernment? Why do they not take Paul’s advice and check out these things in scripture to see if they are so?

    #778852
    DavidL
    Participant

    OF THE TRINITY AND A CHRISTIAN By John Bunyan

    How a young, or shaken Christian should
    demean himself under the weighty thoughts of
    the doctrine of the Trinity, or plurality of
    persons in the eternal godhead.
    The reason why I say a young, or shaken
    Christian; it is because some that are not young,
    but of an ancient standing, may not only be
    assaulted with violent temptations, concerning
    gospel principles, but a second time may
    become a child, a babe, a shallow man, in the
    things of God; especially, either when by
    backsliding he hath provoked God to leave him,
    or when some new, unexpected, and, as to
    present strength, over-weighty objection doth
    fall upon the spirit; by means of which, great
    shakings of mind do commonly attend such a
    soul, in the most weighty matters of the
    concerns of faith, which this is one that have
    supposed in the above-named question.
    Wherefore passing other things, I will come
    directly to that, and briefly propose some helps
    to a soul in such a case.
    THE FIRST PREPARATIVE.
    First, then, be sure thou keep close to the
    word of God; for that is the revelation of the
    mind and will of God, both as to the truth of
    what is either in himself or ways; and also as to
    what he requireth and expecteth of thee, either
    concerning faith in, or obedience to, what he
    hath so revealed. Now for thy better
    performing of this I shall give thee in brief these
    following directions.
    1. Suffer thyself, by the authority of the
    word, to be persuaded that the scripture indeed
    is the word of God; the scriptures of truth, the
    words of the holy one; and that they therefore
    must be every one true, pure, and for ever
    settled in heaven.
    2. Conclude therefore from the former
    doctrine, that that God whose words they are,
    is able to make a reconciliation and most sweet
    and harmonious agreement with all the sayings
    therein, how obscure, cross, dark, and
    contradictory soever they seem to thee. To
    understand all mysteries, to have all knowledge,

    http://www.chapellibrary.org/johnbunyan/text/bun-trinity.pdf

    #778853
    DavidL
    Participant

    John Bunyan on the Trinity

    #778854
    DavidL
    Participant

    to be able to comprehend with all saints, is a
    great work; enough to crush the spirit, and to
    stretch the strings of the most capacious and
    widened soul that breatheth on this side glory,
    be they notwithstanding exceedingly enlarged
    by revelation. Paul, when he was caught up to
    heaven, saw that which was unlawful, because
    impossible for man to utter. And saith Christ to
    the reasoning Pharisee, ‘If I have told you
    earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye
    believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?’ (John
    3:12). It is great lewdness, and also insufferable
    arrogancy to come to the word of God, as
    conceiting already that whatever thou readest,
    must either by thee be understood, or of itself
    fall to the ground as a senseless error. But God
    is wiser than man, wherefore fear thou him,
    and tremble at his word, saying still, with godly
    suspicion of thine own infirmity, what I see not,
    teach thou me, and thou art God only wise; but
    as for me, ‘I was as a beast before thee’ (Psa
    73:22).
    3. Take heed of taking a part of the word
    only, lest thou thereby go away with the truth
    as mangled in pieces. For instance, where thou
    readest, ‘The LORD our God is one Lord’
    (Deut 6:4); there take heed that thou dost not
    thence conclude, Then there are not three
    persons in the godhead: Or when thou readest
    of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, then
    take heed of concluding, there must therefore
    either be three Gods, or else that Jesus Christ
    and the Holy Ghost are not true God, but the
    Father only. Wherefore to help thee here,
    observe,
    THE SECOND PREPARATIVE.
    1. That Christian religion requireth credit
    concerning every doctrine contained in the
    word; credit, I say, according to the true
    relation of every sentence that the Holy Ghost
    hath revealed for the asserting, maintaining, or
    vindicating that same truth.
    2. And therefore hence it is that a Christian
    is not called a doer, a reasoner, an objector, and
    perverse disputer; but a BELIEVER. Be thou an
    example to the believer. ‘And believers were the
    more added to the Lord,’ &c. (Acts 5:14; 1 Tim
    4:12).
    3. Therefore know again that the word, if it
    saith and expresseth that this or that is so and
    so, as to the matter in hand, thou art bound
    and obliged both by the name, profession, and
    the truth, unto which thou hast joined thyself,
    to assent to, confess and acknowledge the same,
    even then when thy carnal reason will not stoop
    thereto. ‘Righteous art thou, O Lord,’ saith
    Jeremiah, ‘yet let me talk with thee: Wherefore
    doth the way of the wicked prosper?’ (Jer 12:1).
    Mark, first he acknowledgeth that God’s way
    with the wicked is just and right, even then
    when yet he could not see the reason of his
    actings and dispensations towards them. The
    same reason is good as to our present case. And
    hence it is that the apostle teacheth, the
    spiritual armour of Christians should be much
    exercised against those high-towering and selfexalting imaginations, that within our own
    bosoms do exalt themselves against the
    knowledge of God. That every thought, or
    carnal reasoning, may be not only taken, but
    brought as captive into obedience to Christ;
    that is, be made to stoop to the word of God,
    and to give way and place to the doctrine
    therein contained, how cross soever our
    thoughts and the word lie to each other. And it
    is observable that he here teacheth, They exalt
    themselves against the knowledge of God,
    which cannot be understood that our carnal or
    natural reason doth exalt itself against an
    eternal deity, simply considered; for that nature
    itself doth gather from the very things that are
    made, even his eternal power and godhead; it
    must be then that they exalt themselves against
    that God as thus and thus revealed in the word,
    to wit, against the knowledge of one God
    consisting of three persons, Father, Son, and
    Spirit; for this is the doctrine of the scriptures of
    truth; and therefore it is observable these
    thoughts must be brought captive, and be made
    subject in particular to the Lord Jesus Christ, as
    to the second person in the godhead; for the
    Father is ever acknowledged by all that profess
    the least of religion; but the Son is that
    stubmling-stone, and rock of offence, against
    which thousands dash themselves in pieces;
    though in him are hid all the treasures of
    wisdom and knowledge, and in him dwells the
    fulness of the godhead bodily.

    #778855
    DavidL
    Participant

    Chuck Missler 3 part teaching on the Trinity..



    #778856
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Even Chuck Missler cannot prove the Trinity. I put my trust in scripture and the words of Jesus Christ.

    #778857
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    If you can’t prove the doctrine using scripture, then quoting great men of God from times past won’t do it either. Remember that we all live in a different time with different problems to contend with. Today, we might think we need to belong to a denomination and many great teachers teach this. But it is also not true.

    Where are the scriptures in John Bunyan’s words? How come Jesus never gave a sermon on the Trinity. Not even once did he teach his disciples in secret did he preach the Trinity to them acoording to the gospels and Acts. A fair question. Jesus used the word of God to defeat Satan. I am not interested in perpetuating the struggles and deceptions of the day. Looking to a brighter future, where these past traditions are cast off, so we can be free and run the race faster.

    There was a time when men believed that there was only one Catholic Church and that salvation came from that Church only. Some of the greatest men of God who lived are still victims of the times they live in. It is said that Luther persecuted Jews for example.

    But as the day gets brighter, we should not be like those who fell back into the Law or being justified by the law after tasting grace. After realizing the truth that there is one God the Father who is the only true God, I am not going to be bewitched and fall back into pagan trinity ideologies? Neither am I going to fall back into salvation through penance, or any other tradition of man.

    #778858
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Davidl. You give me quotes and quotes from great men of God who lived in a darker past, yet if you really want to prove your doctrine, then reguritating doctrines that they were under is not helpful to the progression of the Church being freed by the truth and being withour spot and blemish. I advise you to demonstrate that it is supported in scripture because even these great men were susceptible to the traditions of their day, that had been passed down. But they also surely would have known that scripture takes precedent. But we take one step at a time. And we see a progression in history of being free of the traditions that came to us when the Dark Ages denied man the scripture, and the false foundation of the false Church took root in that ignorance.

    And because you are short on scripture and long on quotes of men who lived in trying times. And couple that with your complete denial of Jesus own words, “this is eternal life, that you may know the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent”, then I can draw this conclusion.

    You are putting your trust in these men, and not God. If you trust in the words of Jesus, then you trust in the words of God, because Jesus said and I believe this to be true, that he only spoke that which he heard his Father saying.

    Yes if you trust Jesus, you will hear his words, no matter who speaks them. But if you deny his words, then you will deny them too, no matter who speaks them.

    #778859
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Tell me DavidL.

    What holds more weight in your eyes.

    A whole sermon from John Bunyan or Chuck Misler on the Trinity, or one sentence from Jesus who is the Word of God.

    I choose Jesus Christ any day. Not you so it seems. But it is better to believe the master than one of his servants.

    Jesus said, “This is ETERNAL LIFE, that you may know the ONLY true God, AND Jesus Christ WHOM HE has sent”.

    Let’s be clear and bring this out into the light. You clearly do not believe Jesus words here.

    If we were both there to hear these words with our own ears, then out of the two of us, which one would be the adversary? Certainly not me. I concur even 2000 or so years later. But not you so it seems.

    #778860
    DavidL
    Participant

    I have considered what you teach on this site concerning the trinity, and really there is nothing that you have said here that causes me to doubt that the Bible reveals God as a Triune Being – Father, Son, and Holy Spirit…and that belief in the trinity is not some extra-Biblical doctrine, as you say, but rather it is confirmed and manifested continually from the pages of Scripture itself…

    When I compare what you teach to what someone like Chuck Missler teaches I have to say, in all honesty (and not wanting to cause offence to you), Chuck Missler makes more sense…he is not trying to prove or disprove anything, he is just explaining what the Bible says in a very open and honest way…confirming to me the truth of God’s Word…

    Your arguments against the Trinity, (like what you have just put forth here concerning the weight of Jesus’ own words in comparison to what a preacher may teach) IMO just doesn’t stack up with reality…because this verse you quote doesn’t relate to the Trinity as such – rather you take this one Scripture and try and make it prove something that the rest of Scripture doesn’t teach…!

    The very way you use Scripture is contrary to the nature of Scripture..

    Overall, when considering this whole debate, it seems quite obvious to me that you have been led astray in your thinking…maybe by taking on-board what other men have taught, rather than simply trusting Scripture itself..?

    I ask myself – If I just take and believe the Words of Jesus Himself, would I really come to the same conclusions as what you teach here…? And I already know that answer…because the Word’s of Christ have always been more important to me than the teachings of man…and sadly, even though you present yourself as a true believer, the teachings you teach is like the voice of a stranger…

    #778861
    Admin
    Keymaster

    This is because you put an extra-biblical doctrine first and scripture second. Lots of people put other so-called truths first and scripture second. Its a way for man to dictate or believe in the truth that he wants with the added bonus of feeling like scripture supports your view. In the last days there will be heaps of teachers tickling the ears of those who hear what they want to hear. But Jesus said:

    “My sheep hear my voice”

    He also said, “this is eternal life, that you may know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he has sent”.

    He was clear, that the only true God was his Father. He also said that this God is our God too.

    #778862
    Admin
    Keymaster

    And the point still stands. You do not believe Jesus when he said:

    Jesus said, “This is ETERNAL LIFE, that you may know the ONLY true God, AND Jesus Christ WHOM HE has sent”.

    I believe it and because of this, you oppose me. But the obvious thing to point out is that I am only the messenger here. In other words, this is not my message. So it is the one whose mouth originally spoke these words is who you really are opposing.

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