Testing the Trinity

Trinity Painting

 

The Spirit is the Spirit OF God
Yeshua is the son OF God.
So is the Father, the Father OF God?

No, the Father is never referred to as the Father of God, by teachers or in the Bible. That is because there is no doubt among Christians that the Father is God and not OF him. Even Paul stated this when he said, “for us there is one God the Father”. Today’s confession however, goes more like this: “for us there is one God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit”. So why is today’s language describing God different to what we read in scripture? What is going on?

The journey to answer this question and other related questions about the Trinity goes back a few decades for me. God had challenged my belief on the Trinity while I blindly believed and accepted the Trinity Doctrine as a pillar of my faith and assumed that it was the foundation of Christianity. But like most Christians, I had never really check it out. I knew at the time that God wants us to know intimately what we believe in and to test all things and also to watch our doctrine closely so we do not become deceived.

What I discovered about the Trinity

With a conviction in my heart to test the Trinity Doctrine, I embarked on reading scriptures that described God and to test the verses that are used to support the Trinity, but what I found truly challenged my belief in the Trinity. However, when I brought the subject up with other Christians while I was investigating this, there seemed to be this “do not question attitude” and in the end I decided I would just leave it and accept that the Trinity Doctrine was correct even though I felt that I was being untrue to the conviction in my heart. I based this decision on making other Christians feel uncomfortable with me as they assumed I was erring from the faith. In hindsight, I can see my problem was based in the fear of man. Truth should always override what people think.

It was some years later that God made me face my belief in the Trinity again and he kept putting certain scriptures in front of me to provoke me to test this belief. In the end I decided that I would not run away from this anymore, and I did a full study of the subject where God divinely lead me to a new scripture almost one each day. Each scripture in succession built a picture that really helped me to understand what God was conveying to me. While I had and continue to have a clear understanding of what the Trinity Doctrine teaches, the challenge was about seeing whether the Trinity Doctrine was a biblical doctrine.

What I discovered was very interesting and I will condense what I have been shown below.

  1. The Trinity Doctrine is not taught anywhere in scripture, but trinities were common in Paganism. They are rooted in Babylon, prominent in Egypt, still exist in India, and is the foundation of Roman Catholicism.
  2. The beginnings of recognition of this doctrine for Christianity started at the Council of Nicea approximately 325 AD. Hundreds of years after the last book in the Bible was written.
  3. The Council of Nicea was organized by the Roman Emperor Constantine and he had the final say on matters that he had little understanding of. He was also head of the Pagan religions.
  4. During and after the Holy Roman Empire, creed followed creed, and eventually idols were accepted as forms that we can worship God through. Mary was exalted to Mother of God (a title that goes back to Babylon) and worship of the saints was also sanctioned.
  5. The organized church we see today was built on top of these creeds. The creeds were and are the foundation for many of today’s churches/denominations. These denominations are not to be confused with the Body of Christ spoken of in the scripture. Most denominations are still rooted in a Trinitarian creed of some kind. So their foundation is the Trinity which came from Babylon.
  6. The mother of these denominations the Roman Catholic Church murdered approximately 50 million people, had armies which Jesus said his church did not need, and banned access to scripture to Christians. This time is known by the descriptive term, ‘The Dark Ages’.
  7. Some relief came during the Reformation where the teachings and authority of the Catholic Church were challenged. The Reformation restored many truths back to the Body of Christ.
  8. As a result of the Reformation, many new denominations started up, but they too held onto some of the creeds including the Trinity Doctrine.
  9. Babylon means confusion and the foundation of most denominations is the Trinity Doctrine which is confusing to all, even proponents of the doctrine. We are told to come out Babylon the Mystery religion lest we partake in her sins and iniquity. Who is Babylon? She is the mother of all harlots and the kings of the Earth have committed adultery with her. She is the religious system that was rooted in Babylon and she has made the whole world drunk on her wine.

History of the Trinity

From a historical point of view it seems strange to me that one of the pillars of Christianity didn’t come into existence or wasn’t recognized until 300 years after the death of Christ. On this point alone, I think its strange that we are encouraged not to question this doctrine and worse still, the the circumstances in which this doctrine came about should lead any clear thinking person to be at least suspicious.

In addition to that, the fruit of this doctrine appears to be bad. We know that one lie leads to another and history shows us that making Jesus God, opened the door for Mary to become the mother of God. Further, if Mary is the Mother of God, then that opens the door to the worship of other humans or saints.

In Revelation 17 we read about the ‘Mother of Harlots’ or the Great Prostitute who sits on many waters. Many people have speculated on her identity. Some say it is New York or the USA, others say it is Rome. If you are not familiar with this section of scripture, then it would pay to read it now before reading on.

Lets imagine for a minute that it is Rome as Rome is after all known to this day as the city of 7 hills. Now Constantine the Roman Emperor who dictated to the church so called truth becomes the original model of the person we call the Pope today. The Pope sits on a throne with supreme authority to dictate so called truth to the Roman Catholic Church. The Roman Catholic Church admits by it’s very name that it’s roots are in Rome and many of the traditions she adheres to come from Pagan traditions and festivals and were re-branded as Christian back in the days of Emperor Constantine. In one sense we can see that these creeds led to the worship of idols and men and changed the truth of God to a lie. But in order for these man-made creeds and lies to be administered and managed, there needed to exist some kind of organization of man to manage the politics of enforcing such creeds. The organizations are of course the organized churches of which the Catholic church is perhaps the mother which would make the smaller denominations the harlots or daughters of the harlot. The term ‘Mother of Harlots’ of course leads us to wonder who the daughters or offspring are. We also read that the kings of the earth have committed adultery with this harlot and we all know that many world leaders befriend the organized church so they can leverage her influence for their own political agendas and to gain votes. There will however come a time when God will call his children out of her because he will judge her quickly.

Babel, Babylon, Egypt, and Rome all have one thing in common. Their motives were to become great and make a name themselves. They also built structures as a way of showing their greatness and prowess. But the spirit of Babylon, Egypt, and Rome also enslave the children of God and also hated them to the point of death. In Rev 17 we read that the woman was drunk on the blood of the saints and is guilty of all the martyrs. History also records the dreadful killings of Christians by Rome and the enslavement of Israel by Egypt, but how many people are aware that the Catholic Church is also responsible for burning to death millions of people including Christians. They were killed as ‘heretics’ for things like reading scripture, translating scripture, or daring to obey the scriptures instead of their traditions.

Many denominations today still operate under this spirit of control including the persecution of those who question doctrines like the Trinity. Try questioning this doctrine in any denomination that is built on this creed, and watch the horror on people’s faces and the warnings that will proceed thereafter.

We know from scripture that the curse of Babel was division. The Babylonians built a tower in their name and God divided their language to weaken them, lest they succeed in all kinds of wickedness. But this spirit also exists in the organised churches. Each Denomination has its own creed, its own leaders and own customs or tradition, and they are all about making a name for themselves. They build towers in their name and in times past the steeples on these structure were the tallest structures in their communities. Now can you see that denominations are really just the divided languages of Christianity, just the same as divisions caused by multiple natural languages resulting from Babel. And the reason for this division is not what many think, it is so they cannot together succeed at works of iniquity and while in this divisive state, they cannot accomplish anything their hearts desire. True unity is extremely important and something that God will bring about and is already doing. But unity in the love and truth of God is paramount, not unity in making a name for themselves. People are misguided when they think that it would be a good thing if all the denominations united under one banner. What is better it people uniting in the truth because of their love of God and all things that are of him.

Denominations and their Trinity foundation

But doesn’t God use denominations to spread his gospel?. The quick answer to this is God uses men to do his work. If these men are part of a denomination or not, God uses the man, not the building and not the system. If you look into this you will likely find that the system actually hinders men in being led the the Spirit of God and the system itself takes up much resources to run, when instead such resources could help the poor and needy.

Many are being used by God for his purposes and this has been true since the birth of the Church. In times of great ignorance, it appears that God does compromise for our benefit. He works with what he can and we often limit God. But God is constantly trying to give us access to his limitless resources. In this age of denominations, it is hard to accept that there really is only one church built on the foundation of Christ and the Apostles. The only divisions are actually geographical divisions. The 7 churches in Revelation for example aren’t 7 separate churches, but 7 cities in which the Church resides. For example, in the Book of Revelation where it says: “to the Church in Laodecia”, it is saying to the Body of Christ in that particular city. We need to open our eyes in order to see the real Church. When you can really see the Body of Christ, you will never again say, I am going to church, because you will realize that we are the Church regardless of your location. This explains why we also read in 1 Corinthians 16:19: “The churches of Asia send greetings to you. Aquila and Prisca greet you warmly in the Lord, with the church that meets in their house.”. So this simply means the part of the Church that meets in that house. It was not a denomination like we see today.

Most denominations today have a Statement of Faith as their foundation and these are usually based on creeds formed centuries ago, but centuries after the Bible was first penned. Often Christians are invited or required to take out membership and that often requires an acceptance of a particular Statement of Faith. This sort of thing is common, yet it is unscriptural and deceives people into thinking that the denomination is the Church. They also think that once they have membership they belong to the Church. This couldn’t be further from the truth. Anyone can agree to a Statement of Faith or a Creed, even a mass murderer could do that. True Believers believe that Jesus Christ is the Lord, the Son of God, and the Messiah. The true Church is made up of God’s children and He dwells in them via his Spirit. Denominations on the other hand can contain true believers, but they can also contain non-believers, criminals, and unrepentant sinners. All true believers should use scripture and the Word of God as our Statement of Faith and we should realize that there is only One Church called the Body of Christ. The head of the true Church is Jesus Christ himself, not a Pope, Archbishop, or a president. We would do well to keep away from the words, wisdom and traditions of men.

The truth about God and who he is

Now the Trinity Doctrine says that God is made up of three persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. But the truth is that the Father is the only true God. So who is the son? Easy. He is the son of this God.

John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

The above scripture is not to be taken lightly. Do not pass over it until you have grasped it. After all, it is eternal life and isn’t that the point of having faith in God?

Ephesians 4:4-6
4 there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Clearly, the God and Father of all is the Father and not Jesus. Jesus is the Lord according to the above scripture.

Instead of using the Trinity to describe the God and his relationship with his Son. how about use Jesus own words. Are not his words better than some creed that came from man? John 15:1-2
1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.
2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

This scripture shows the same 3 levels that we see in the scripture below. Note: The word head means authority, head or source.

1 Corinthians 11:3
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

The true doctrine & foundation

The scriptures show us that we believers are united in doctrine by believing the following:

  • God exists and rewards those that seek him.
  • We must repent of our sins and turn to God and serve him.
  • Jesus is the only way to God and we should be baptized into his name.
  • Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.
  • Jesus died for our sins and was raised from the dead to the highest position (throne), that he may present us to God, holy and sanctified.
  • Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to the Church.
  • The Spirit of God leads us and teaches us all things.
  • That Jesus will return to earth and all the earthly kingdoms will fall. The Kingdom of God will come to earth.
I can have true unity of purpose with anyone that believes these points. The Trinity should never be pushed or taught as a doctrine, but today it is taught not only as a doctrine, but a foundational doctrine. However the Trinity Doctrine as a foundation is actually another foundation. Another foundation is not the same as the true foundation.

1 Corinthians 3:11
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Now Matthew 16:13-18 has a key for us.
13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.

Jesus commends Peter when he declares that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. Now Peter never said that Jesus was God at that opportune moment, but I am sure that many Christians given the same question today would say that he is God, yet that answer is different to the one Peter was commended for. Jesus actually built his Church on this truth, so it is obvious from this alone that the Trinity Doctrine is not the foundation of Jesus Church.

Now it is easy to show scriptures that show the Father to be God and there also appear to be a few scriptures that say that Jesus is God (Elohim, Theos). Most of the time Jesus is referred to as the Son of God. Even the Devil and demons called him the Son of God. See Matthew 8:29 & Matthew 4:3-6

But a lot of people also ignore the fact that we humans are also called Gods. John 10:34 uses the word “theos” to describe Man.
Psalms 82:6 uses the word “Elohim” to describe Man.

The word God is also used for Idols and Satan.
Exodus 20:23 uses the word “elohim” to describe Idols.
2 Corinthians 4:4 uses the word “theos” of this world to describe Satan.

But it must be made clear that ‘Elohim’ and ‘Theos’ are not names of God, they are titles in the same way Master is a title. When we see the word God, it is important to read the adjectives to see what kind of God is being referred to. E.g. the Most High God (the Father) is different to the God of this age (Satan).

Now there are many gods as I have pointed out, but the Father is the Most High God. See 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 which says
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Also remember that Jesus calls us brethren/brothers. But to the Father we are his children or offspring.

Now Psalm 2:7 says
“I will declare the decree: Yahweh hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.”

So the name of the Most High God is (YHWH) which is referred to by scholars as Yahweh. So Yahweh (God) is the Father of Jesus. So it is clear that Jesus is not Yahweh. He is Yahweh’s Son. Now Jesus in Hebrew is Yashua and he is never referred to as Yahweh. Yashua means “Yahweh saves” or “Yahweh is salvation”. So God’s name is in his son’s name. (Yah)

Ephesians 3:14-15
14 For this reason I kneel before the Father,
15 from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name.

Just like Trinitarians today, the Jews thought that Jesus was claiming to be God, but Jesus defended this accusation with the following words in John 10:34-36
34 “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are gods’?
35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came and the Scripture cannot be broken
36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?

So the Jews accused Jesus of saying he was God and instead of agreeing and saying something like “Yes I am God” Jesus defended himself with the statement “You are Gods (theos) and then he stresses that he was claiming to be the Son of God.” Many Christians still make the same mistake today. Read John 10:27-36 to read the above words of Jesus in context. In that context, Jesus even said to the Jews that the Father was greater than himself.

Who and what is Jesus

So who is Jesus. The following Statements are from the scriptures, and should be the words that we trust in in order to understand who Jesus really is.

  • God has spoken to us through the Prophets and now his Son.
    See Hebrews 1:1-6
  • The Son is the exact brightness of God’s glory.
    See Hebrews 1:1-6
  • He is the image of the invisible God.
    See Colossians 1:12-16
  • God sustains all things by his Word (Jesus is the Word of God).
    See Hebrews 1:1-6 & John 1:1
  • He is seated at the right hand of God.
    See Colossians 3:1-3
  • He inherited a name more superior to the Angels.
    See Hebrews 1:1-6
  • He is worthy to be worshipped by Angels.
    See Hebrews 1:1-6
  • God became a Father when he begat his son “You are my Son, today I have become your Father”.
    See Hebrews 1:1-6
  • He is the Firstborn from the Dead.
    See Revelation 1:4-6
  • Jesus has first place in everything.
    See Colossians 1:18
  • Jesus is head over the Church.
    See Ephesians 1:22
  • He is Gods firstborn.
    See Hebrews 1:1-6
  • Jesus is the Ruler or Beginning of the Creation of God.
    See Revelation 3:14
  • Jesus is begotten, not created.
    See John 1:3
The last scripture above, shows us that Jesus was not created. Many other scriptures show us that Jesus is begotten (born). See John 1:18 & John 3:18

Jesus is truly the only begotten Son of God. Yes we too are the Sons of God, but we were begotten from God through his Word (Christ). All creation was made this way. But Jesus was begotten directly from God and he is the exact image of God. And we (the church) are the image of Christ. Again I point out the importance of 1Corinthians 11:3 and Colossians 2:8-10 which says,
in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.

Here we can see clearly that Christ is the fullness of God and we the Church are the fullness of Christ. So consider this, if we use this scripture to say that Jesus is God, then in all fairness we have to conclude that we are Christ. This is of course a misinterpretation of scripture. The truth is that Jesus has the divine nature and God also wants us to share that nature too. So just as the Deity is in Christ, Christ is in us.

To be divine and to be the Divine is two different things. One identifies a nature and the other identifies a person. God is the Divine and he shares his nature with his sons who are part of his family. Christ has divine nature as the Son is like his Father. But did you know hat we can also partake of the divine nature and still not be God? And if you understand that, then it must be that if Jesus has divine nature, then that also does not make him God.

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Moving on, Matthew 24:36 shows us clearly that the Son doesn’t know everything, yet God is all knowing.
“No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. My confession is that Jesus Christ is Lord and I believe that all will confess this one day. And I also believe that God is Spirit and Invisible and that he resides inside and outside of his creation. See 2 Chronicles 2:6. Similar to physical light, it is invisible except that it reveals all things. Now when light strikes a prism it reflects all the colours and this is like Christ. He reveals and reflects God who is light. Jesus reveals the Invisible Spirit who dwells in him. Jesus has a body and the glory of God is visible to us in Christ. There is no other way for us to se God or to know God or to fellowship with God. Jesus is the only Mediator between Man and God.

Colossians 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Jesus is the Image of God and he is seated on the Fathers throne above creation and Jesus seats us on his throne.

Revelation 3:21
To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne. Jesus calls his Father, God and he says that his God is also our God. See John 20:17
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ ” & Revelation 1:1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Also in John 8:28 we read the following:
Jesus said “I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me”

Now 1 Corinthians 15:27 shows us clearly that Jesus is not God.
27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When the Most High God is being referred to, it is always talking about the Father.

John 3:16 says
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Conclusion

To sum up: 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 embodies what I am saying.
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

The Trinity makes and idol out of God. Its no different to making a graven image from your hands as it is to make God into a form in your mind or using a diagram to depict him. It is the nature of Man to do this. The Trinity and Nicene Creed is the founding document to the man made organized religion that has suppressed and kept in fear many of Gods people. Upon that creed many heresies followed. If its origin is man then its fruit will be death, control and fear and history has revealed the fruit of this doctrine. God is a person and the Trinity Doctrine says that God is a class/family. We know that there are many gods, so the word ‘god’ can be used in the sense of class, but there is only one God the person otherwise there would be more than 1 God. I and many others including the Jews believe that God is a person, not an organization. Perhaps God is calling us out of Egypt and her gods. This is where the Trinity Doctrine came from and the Egyptians already worshipped a Trinity before the gospel reached them. All they did was replace the names. But the concept remains the same. A Christian appearance but a pagan heart. Two more scriptures before I finish.

Proverbs 8:22-30 Talks about someone who was brought forth by God, yet existed before creation and witnessed God creating the Cosmos.
Matthew 3:17 says “And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased” So WHO is Jesus? He is the Christ, the Son of God, the Word of God, the Image of God and the Wisdom of God. He is of God and shares his nature, but he is not that God in identity. The true God is his Father and our Father.

For a more in depth look at this subject, see the writing The Trinity Doctrine.

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  • #791363
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi davidl,

    False teachers and their doctrines continue to reap another harvest.

    You say you love scripture and so do I.

    So back to scripture.

    #791364
    carmel
    Participant

     

    The divinity of Christ?

    God was IN CHRIST reconciling the world to Himself 2cor 5.19

    Nick,

    THE ABOVE IS REGARDING THE GLORIFICATION OF

    JESUS INTO CHRIST :

    After he gave his flesh and blood body as a ransom on the cross and immediately on his death, through the Holy Spirit, he owned the entire matter,for the glory of the Father!

    The Father glorified him in himself in return after Jesus resurrected and united Jesus’soul with Jesus’ body

    John 13:31 When he therefore was gone out, Jesus said: Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. <b>32 I</b>f God be glorified in him, God also will glorify him in himself; and immediately will he glorify him.

    Jesus’soul integrated with Jesus’body established: JESUS CHRIST

    ONE GLORIFIED SPIRITUAL FLESH BODY

    GOD OF ALL FLESH! FOR THE GLORY OF THE FATHER

     

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST

    SINCE ONLY JESUS BECAME MAN, TO SAVE MANKIND THROUGH HIS DEATH,FOR THE GLORY OF THE FATHER!

    IN ORDER FOR THE FATHER TO BE OFFICIALLY KNOWN AS

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD! AS A SPIRIT!

    ON THE LAST DAY OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST,

    THE FATHER WOULD OCCUPY FOR ETERNITY THE GLORIFIED BODY OF CHRIST!

    REVELATION:

    Personification of God ….

    The belief in a spiritually tangible Deity by no means implies a personified Deity, for this reason the human being should not have a narrow idea of God, Who is omnipresent and beyond time and space. He permeate everything with His spirit, the whole universe, the whole spiritual kingdom…. and therefore He is not conceivable as a person who, according to human comprehension, is spatially limited. Instead, a personification of God must be completely avoided if the human being wants to come anywhere near visualizing God as the highest and most perfect Being of God.

    God has indeed made Himself visible to His living creations in a human form by permeating Jesus’ body with His Divinity and showed Himself in His transfigured state to people, so that they were able to visualize the eternal

    Deity in Jesus Christ.

    Yet once the soul has discarded its body and enters the kingdom of light it will realize that the eternal Deity can never be grasped by human intellect and that the embodiment in Jesus Christ intended to awaken or strengthen the belief in a SPIRITUALLY TANGIBLE DEITY IN PEOPLE DURING THEIR EARTHLY LIFE, otherwise they would find it difficult to have faith which, however, it is necessary in order to establish a connection with God

    through prayer ….

    Thus the eternal Deity became visible to people in Jesus Christ and in merciful love tries to make Itself accessible to people in order to encourage them establishing their contact with Itself. Jesus Christ was the form which sheltered the eternal Deity for the people on earth …. In the spiritual kingdom the same form will be spiritually visible by those beings which have attained the DEGREE OF MATURITY that enables them to behold God…. But this spiritually tangible Deity is present everywhere and therefore never expended in a limited form. Hence It cannot be addressed as a personal Deity either, because this concept is only used for earthly life, for the human being himself who, as an isolated individual being within the universe, claims for himself the acknowledgement of being a personality, thus a person always has to be understood to be a human creature. That this concept can never be applied to the eternal Deity is due to the fact that
    God is a spirit …. but the spirit is never something restricted, something bound in a form, once it is perfect. The supreme Perfection is therefore limitless beyond all comprehension and permeates the whole of infinity; it is omnipresent because its fundamental substance is love which likewise is not restricted and therefore also not conceivable as a form. The human being’s intellectual capacity is limited, he is unable to visualize anything but earthly things as long as he is still spiritually unenlightened. And therefore he tries to imagine the eternal Deity as a person as soon as he believes in a
    spiritually tangible God, in a God to Whom he can pray.

    And God accommodated this purely human desire by embodying Himself in Jesus Christ, that is, by demonstrating how a human being living a God-pleasing life can unite with God on earth and thus become as one with Him …. He wanted to show people the path to achieve the final goal, the total unification with God.

    The emanation of the Divine Being completely permeated the man Jesus, consequently only the external frame, the physical form, was human,BUT HIS SOUL AND SPIRIT WERE DIVINE,THEY HAD ENTIRELY UNITED WITH GOD AGAIN FROM WHOM THEY HAD COME FORTH.  Yet the eternal Deity did not expend Itself, because it is impossible for the most perfect Being ever to be limited within a form. Nevertheless the eternal Deity is something spiritually tangible, that is, it is spiritual strength which has to be granted will and faculty of thought, thus a being with Whom the human being can also make heartfelt contact by using his will and his thoughts. For the human being’s will and thoughts are not tied to the external form either but are part of the spiritual essence which is embodied in the human form. Once the physical shell falls away, the soul, the spiritually tangible being, remains capable of thinking and wanting, but according to its state of maturity the ability can merely be weaker or stronger, whereas the eternal Deity, as the most perfect Being, executes Its will and Its thoughts in profound wisdom and inconceivable strength. The human physical form is just the means to an end for the duration of his earthly life.

    YET ANYONE BELIEVING IN THE IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL will also understand that the external form, the person, will not be required for the soul’s continued existence. Nevertheless, the soul remains conscious of itself as an individual being, even when it has joined equally mature souls …. just as the eternal Deity will likewise remain the highest and most perfect Being for the most elevated beings of light which have entered into union with It …. which are totally united with God and yet are inexpressibly happy in their own existence because they always and forever receive and feel God’s strength of love Who, as eternal Father, is in intimate contact

    Amen

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #791365
    DavidL
    Participant

    NickHassan (continued)..

    I never left Scripture – I just gave it to you in my own words..

    This is how the Bible says it..

    “But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, to them that believe on His name”

    #791372
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi davidl,

    And you have heard the gospel too.

    You are called.

    Are you chosen ?

     

     

    #791373
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi davidl,

    The meaning of BELIEVED is enlarged by the book of Acts.

    Not intellectual assent.

    #791374
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi C,

    Lots of words

    Little substance

    #791377
    DavidL
    Participant

    Nick..

    You claim you are born of the Spirit – but how can I to BELIEVE that… when you deny the revelation of Scripture concerning the very One you claim to know and follow..?

    #791379
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi davidl,

    Where does scripture teach what you say?

    Or are you relying on the inferences of others?

    listen to scripture

    #791380
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi davidl,

    If you were born of the Spirit would you rely on the inferences of men?

    #791393
    bodhitharta
    Participant

    DavidL

    You still avoided my question. Jesus said “We know what we worship” So who does Jesus worship alongside the other Jews?

    I love to worship what Jesus worships, I am trying to get you to tell me what or who should we worship other than what Jesus worships. Jesus said to the lady “you know not what you worship” she said the Jews know what to worship so do you worship what the Jews worship?

    #791396
    bodhitharta
    Participant

    DavidL

    If you believe that Jesus is God do you also believe this?:

    Matthew 15:24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

    Was “God” only sent to the lost sheep of Israel?

    #791398
    bodhitharta
    Participant

    DavidL

    You say that you know you are born again because of changes in your heart, are you saying because you have become a little less bitter than before that you are “born again”? It’s all still right there that same sense of heaviness and all though you try to cover it the despair is still apparent.

    The point is coping is not changing and making better decisions while inspiring does not equate to a mind, heart or soul submitted to God. God says “I am the Only one” you say no your not you’re 3 in 1 but how does “I AM” = more than 1 ever? “I” is not plural and neither is “AM” so what change have you really made when your heart is still as hard as before, when you prefer to be “the misunderstood one” instead of the open to honesty one?

    Honestly, who taught you that God was 3?

    I am telling you directly, you did not come to that conclusion on your own and it was not the result of any revelation, so who told you that God was 3? who taught you the term “God the Son”? Tell me….tell us all.

    #791399
    bodhitharta
    Participant

    DavidL

    the one thing we do have in common is in believing in Hell.

    You have to understand that when you call God 3 in 1 you are also calling “The only true God” which is the one you call father 1 in 3 meaning that He is not God alone He says “I AM” you say you are not “they are you” I say who is God you say this one and that one and the other. The word God doesn’t even mean a specific being for you because when I say God you believe I could be talking about any of 3 beings. Jesus did not want to die for you or anybody else he said it was not his will so if he is God can God will and not will at the same time is God somehow confused about what he wants?

    Luke 22:42Darby Translation (DARBY)

    42 saying, Father, if thou wilt remove this cup from me:—but then,

      not my will

    , but thine be done.

    So a triune God has opposing wills, for the love of God come to your senses

    #791487
    DavidL
    Participant

    bodhitharta

     

    I’m not avoiding your question – but a conversation should go both ways…  you come up with more questions without responding to any answers I give..

     

    Why does Jesus include himself in saying “we worship what we know”? Obviously at that time there was no trinity theology for a Jew to even know

     

    That’s right – Christ had not been revealed yet… throughout His ministry you will notice how careful He was to keep His true identity concealed, until the proper time..

     

    “But He warned them and instructed them not to tell this to anyone, saying, ‘The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed and be raised up on the third day.'” – Luke 9:21

     

     

    #791489
    DavidL
    Participant

    If you believe that Jesus is God do you also believe this?:

    Matthew 15:24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

    Was “God” only sent to the lost sheep of Israel?

     

    “For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.” – Romans 1:16

     

    The gospel first came to the Jews – “He came unto His own, and His own received Him not.” – John 1:11 …when Christ was rejected by the nation of Israel, then the gospel went out to the Gentiles. “But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles..” – Romans 11:11

    #791492
    DavidL
    Participant

    God says “I am the Only one” you say no your not you’re 3 in 1 but how does “I AM” = more than 1 ever?

     

    I believe if you have Jesus you have the Father – but if you deny the Son, you have missed out completely (1 John 2:23)

    Look at the Jehovah’s Witnesses as an example – in one sense they acknowledge Christ, that He died for our sins etc, but in fact they actually deny Christ by denying His divinity – they reject the revelation of the Son that is given in Scripture by the Spirit… and have written their own Bible to suit their man-made teaching… choosing instead to focus on Jehovah, saying (what you are saying), “God says, ‘I am the Only one'” – it’s all about God the Father, and the Son was just a sort of secondary vessel God used, but not one with the Father.

    …and because, in effect, they are denying the Spirit – then their whole Christian testimony is spiritually dead – even though they do still acknowledge Christ in some way.

     

    but how does “I AM” = more than 1 ever?

     

    ..surely the unity of the Godhead is perfect..!

     

     

    #791493
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi davidl,

    Have you researched GODHEAD in the KJV?

    It does not stand for any trinity but is used twice and those usages relate to different things.

     

    If Jesus was divine was he also the Son of Almighty God?

    Do you pray to a trinity?

    #791494
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi davidl,

    Why should the folly of the JW’s cause you to cling to the folly of catholic dogma?

    #791500
    DavidL
    Participant

    Honestly, who taught you that God was 3?

    I am telling you directly, you did not come to that conclusion on your own and it was not the result of any revelation, so who told you that God was 3? who taught you the term “God the Son”? Tell me….tell us all.

     

    While the term “Trinity” is man-made – yet the divine nature of the Son and the Holy Spirit (which is the essential element of the trinity) cannot be denied if one reads Scripture WITHOUT the confusion of man-made teaching (such as the teaching found here on this site concerning the trinity)… I was never taught any trinity doctrine, and believe that, just as the whole journey of faith is a path of divine enlightenment (to acknowledge Christ in the first place is a revelation given by the Spirit as to who Jesus is), so that revelation of Christ grows brighter and brighter as we grow in Him… but many, once they have started on the road, turn back again to relying on their own natural reasoning, and thus fall away from the true faith.

     

    One thing I would add is that in denying the trinity (as all Christian cults do), the owners of this site mistakenly believe they are representing the true faith, when in fact they are actually undermining a major tenet of Christianity.. at a time when the whole western Church is to be falling further and further away into apostasy…wise.?

    #791502
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi davidl,

    Is the wide road of catholic dogma the safe one?

    Man made dogmas are anathema.

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