Is Jesus the Logos?

The Word of God

We know that God created all things through his Word.

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  He was with God in the beginning.  Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

1 John 1:1-3
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.

However, it is also written that God made all things through his son.

Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

Colossians 1:15-17
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities– all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet there is for us only one God, the Father, who is the Creator of all things and for whom we live; and there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things were created and through whom we live.

There seems to be a direct link with the Word and the Son in the above verses as both are said to be the agent by which God created all things. Or did God make all things through his Word as well as the Son? If there was a time when there was only God and his Word as we read in John 1:1-3, then know that Jesus is not only described in similar terms as that Word but that he is actually called the Word of God too.

Revelation 19:13
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

It seems that with God making all things through his Word, through his Son, and even through Wisdom, this either means that these are all different agents, thus God invoked a number of things to create the Universe, or they are one and the same, i.e., the Word is Jesus Christ before he was called Jesus. Christ.

We are told that the Word became flesh and that is an obvious reference in a book devoted to Jesus Christ in a passage of scripture about the origins of Jesus Christ. So this either means that Jesus was newly created from the Word as some teach or that he is the Word but took on another form, that of flesh when he came to earth. The latter seems the more likely explanation given that God created all things through the Son and the Word and that Jesus Christ is even called the ‘Word of God’.

Even if there were no direct references for Jesus being the Word of God, there would still be a whole raft of other verses to contend with. These verses speak of Jesus existence before he came as a man (outside of mentioning the Word).

  • “Before Abraham, I am”, – John 8:58
  • “to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.” – Jude 1:25,
  • He is before all things, and in him all things hold together –  Colossians 1:17.
  • etc.

Finally, we are told to not trust in the flesh, so if Jesus is only flesh, then should we trust him? After all we are explicitly taught that we are cursed if we trust in man. When we trust Jesus, are we trusting in man or the Word of God?

Jeremiah 17:5
This is what the LORD says: “Cursed is the one who trusts in man, who draws strength from mere flesh and whose heart turns away from the LORD.

For more on this subject try this writing:
Did Jesus pre-exist before his birth on earth

  • This topic has 25,959 replies, 116 voices, and was last updated 1 week ago by Keith.
Viewing 20 posts - 681 through 700 (of 25,961 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #55925
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,
    Many would rewrite Jn 1.1 to read
    “In the beginning was the Word and the Word is in God and the Word is God”

    #55930
    kenrch
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 20 2007,11:41)
    Hi,
    Many would rewrite Jn 1.1 to read
    “In the beginning was the Word and the Word is in God and the Word is God”


    Yes and some would rewrite John 1:1 to say: In the beginning was the son and the son was with God. Does the Word mean son?

    Not until John 1:14 did the Word become the SON.

    Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    #55931

    Hello

    The Arians and the Henotheist would read Jn 1:1 as…

    In the begining was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was “A” God!

    :p

    #55932

    Quote (kenrch @ June 20 2007,12:08)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 20 2007,11:41)
    Hi,
    Many would rewrite Jn 1.1 to read
    “In the beginning was the Word and the Word is in God and the Word is God”


    Yes and some would rewrite John 1:1 to say: In the beginning was the son and the son was with God.  Does the Word mean son?

    Not until John 1:14 did the Word become the SON.

    Joh 1:14  And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.


    K

    True!!!

    :D

    #55934
    kenrch
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 20 2007,12:10)

    Quote (kenrch @ June 20 2007,12:08)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 20 2007,11:41)
    Hi,
    Many would rewrite Jn 1.1 to read
    “In the beginning was the Word and the Word is in God and the Word is God”


    Yes and some would rewrite John 1:1 to say: In the beginning was the son and the son was with God.  Does the Word mean son?

    Not until John 1:14 did the Word become the SON.

    Joh 1:14  And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.


    K

    True!!!

    :D


    AH! We agree?! Believe it or not WJ I'd rather agree than disagree:D

    If we say the word was the son then are we not adding to scripture?

    #55936

    Quote (kenrch @ June 20 2007,12:21)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 20 2007,12:10)

    Quote (kenrch @ June 20 2007,12:08)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 20 2007,11:41)
    Hi,
    Many would rewrite Jn 1.1 to read
    “In the beginning was the Word and the Word is in God and the Word is God”


    Yes and some would rewrite John 1:1 to say: In the beginning was the son and the son was with God.  Does the Word mean son?

    Not until John 1:14 did the Word become the SON.

    Joh 1:14  And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.


    K

    True!!!

    :D


    AH! We agree?! Believe it or not WJ I'd rather agree than disagree:D

    If we say the word was the son then are we not adding to scripture?


    K

    True. But we do disagree in that I believe the “Word was God”!

    #55938
    kenrch
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 20 2007,12:25)

    Quote (kenrch @ June 20 2007,12:21)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 20 2007,12:10)

    Quote (kenrch @ June 20 2007,12:08)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 20 2007,11:41)
    Hi,
    Many would rewrite Jn 1.1 to read
    “In the beginning was the Word and the Word is in God and the Word is God”


    Yes and some would rewrite John 1:1 to say: In the beginning was the son and the son was with God.  Does the Word mean son?

    Not until John 1:14 did the Word become the SON.

    Joh 1:14  And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.


    K

    True!!!

    :D


    AH! We agree?! Believe it or not WJ I'd rather agree than disagree:D

    If we say the word was the son then are we not adding to scripture?


    K

    True. But we do disagree in that I believe the “Word was God”!


    I believe the word before flesh was part of God! Jesus and the Father are ONE, Yes? :)

    #56328
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi Not3in1.

    Quote (Not3in1 @ May 31 2007,04:07)
    t8,
    Thanks for clarifying for us regarding WJ's post. Sometimes I think that everyone has their own definition of theos and can look to any book to confirm it. It seems it is used as one wills, sometimes? But thanks for making sense of it all for me, at least.

    By the way, in the “chat” thread I really enjoyed all your photography! I am a bit of a photographer myself. The artist in me really enjoyed your picture-perspectives. :) Dan and I will have to put NZ on our tour-ticket once the kids leave for college. I'll be sure to remember my ear-muffs for the wind……boy can it howl there (the video of the wind was cool).


    If you ever make it here, be sure to get in touch.

    I could show you the sights.

    :)

    #56329
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi WorshippingJesus.

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 20 2007,12:08)
    Hello

    The Arians and the Henotheist would read Jn 1:1 as…

    In the begining was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was “A” God!

    :p


    John 1:1c doesn't have a definite article and in Greek there is no indefinite article.

    So you are right about the 'a god' part. But it is equally presumptious to say “the God” or God himself.

    Translators add in words like a/an and capitalise where they see fit. But that is their opinion only. They may be right or wrong.

    Some say a god, others say, God, and others also say 'theos' in a qualitative sense.

    I point this out because you say that it is wrong to say that the Word was a god. But assume just as much with your view.

    In the end we have other scriptures to show us which one.

    “For us there is one God the Father”
    “The only true God and Jesus whom he has sent.”

    So I guess I better give you one of these back.

    :p

    #56332
    kenrch
    Participant

    YEAH WJ :p :laugh: :D :)

    #56386
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 20 2007,12:25)

    Quote (kenrch @ June 20 2007,12:21)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 20 2007,12:10)

    Quote (kenrch @ June 20 2007,12:08)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 20 2007,11:41)
    Hi,
    Many would rewrite Jn 1.1 to read
    “In the beginning was the Word and the Word is in God and the Word is God”


    Yes and some would rewrite John 1:1 to say: In the beginning was the son and the son was with God.  Does the Word mean son?

    Not until John 1:14 did the Word become the SON.

    Joh 1:14  And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.


    K

    True!!!

    :D


    AH! We agree?! Believe it or not WJ I'd rather agree than disagree:D

    If we say the word was the son then are we not adding to scripture?


    K

    True. But we do disagree in that I believe the “Word was God”!


    WJ, if you agree that the Word is not the Son, but the Word was God – this is interesting indeed!

    The traditional Trinitarian belief is that the Word was the “second person” of God (already existing as God). Do you believe that the “second person” of God (AKA Jesus) was not yet “seperate” from God before he was born? How then could *he* be *with* God?

    #56396
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi not3,
    Those who follow trinity theory
    must
    deny the Son of God.
    2Peter2
    1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

    #56474

    Quote (t8 @ June 24 2007,22:47)
    Hi WorshippingJesus.

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 20 2007,12:08)
    Hello

    The Arians and the Henotheist would read Jn 1:1 as…

    In the begining was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was “A” God!

    :p


    John 1:1c doesn't have a definite article and in Greek there is no indefinite article.

    So you are right about the 'a god' part. But it is equally presumptious to say “the God” or God himself.

    Translators add in words like a/an and capitalise where they see fit. But that is their opinion only. They may be right or wrong.

    Some say a god, others say, God, and others also say 'theos' in a qualitative sense.

    I point this out because you say that it is wrong to say that the Word was a god. But assume just as much with your view.

    In the end we have other scriptures to show us which one.

    “For us there is one God the Father”
    “The only true God and Jesus whom he has sent.”

    So I guess I better give you one of these back.

    :p


    t8

    I seems you have a simple answer here.

    But you havent yet responded to the true interpretation of John 1:1.

    https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1375

    So I will hold my comment on the “Quality” issue untill you respond!

    :D

    #57204
    NickHassan
    Participant

    topical

    #58028
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,
    Some would say LOGOS means thought or plan,
    But scripture uses other words for such things.

    Job 21:27
    “Behold, I know your thoughts,And the plans by which you would wrong me.

    Psalm 33:11
    The counsel of the LORD stands forever,The plans of His heart from generation to generation.

    Proverbs 15:22
    Without consultation, plans are frustrated,But with many counselors they succeed.

    Proverbs 16:3
    Commit your works to the LORDAnd your plans will be established.

    Proverbs 16:9
    The mind of man plans his way,But the LORD directs his steps.

    Proverbs 19:21
    Many plans are in a man's heart,But the counsel of the LORD will stand.

    Jeremiah 29:11
    'For I know the plans that I have for you,' declares the LORD, 'plans for welfare and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope.

    Genesis 6:5
    Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

    1 Chronicles 28:9
    “As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart and a willing mind; for the LORD searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts If you seek Him, He will let you find Him; but if you forsake Him, He will reject you forever.

    Psalm 94:11
    The LORD knows the thoughts of man,That they are a mere breath.

    Psalm 94:19
    When my anxious thoughts multiply within me,Your consolations delight my soul.

    Psalm 94:11
    The LORD knows the thoughts of man,That they are a mere breath.

    Psalm 92:5
    How great are Your works, O LORD!Your thoughts are very deep.
    etc

    #58029
    kenrch
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 05 2007,08:04)
    Hi,
    Some would say LOGOS means thought or plan,
    But scripture uses other words for such things.

    Job 21:27
    “Behold, I know your thoughts,And the plans by which you would wrong me.

    Psalm 33:11
    The counsel of the LORD stands forever,The plans of His heart from generation to generation.

    Proverbs 15:22
    Without consultation, plans are frustrated,But with many counselors they succeed.

    Proverbs 16:3
    Commit your works to the LORDAnd your plans will be established.

    Proverbs 16:9
    The mind of man plans his way,But the LORD directs his steps.

    Proverbs 19:21
    Many plans are in a man's heart,But the counsel of the LORD will stand.

    Jeremiah 29:11
    'For I know the plans that I have for you,' declares the LORD, 'plans for welfare and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope.

    Genesis 6:5
    Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

    1 Chronicles 28:9
    “As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart and a willing mind; for the LORD searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts If you seek Him, He will let you find Him; but if you forsake Him, He will reject you forever.

    Psalm 94:11
    The LORD knows the thoughts of man,That they are a mere breath.

    Psalm 94:19
    When my anxious thoughts multiply within me,Your consolations delight my soul.

    Psalm 94:11
    The LORD knows the thoughts of man,That they are a mere breath.

    Psalm 92:5
    How great are Your works, O LORD!Your thoughts are very deep.
    etc


    Nick I couldn't help but notice all the scriptures are Old Testament, before the Son of God.

    #58030
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi K,
    That is when the LOGOS was with God.
    He was with God before that too- in the beginning.
    Then the LOGOS was made flesh and dwelled among us.

    #63354
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (Not3in1 @ May 29 2007,18:49)
    Still lacking…..  However my example that I have shared before also works:  using my son (Nathan) and his father (Dan) as examples.

    In the beginning was Nathan, and Nathan was with Dan, and Nathan was Dan.  Nathan was in the beginning with Dan.

    How was Nathan “with” Dan before he was born?  The same way Jesus was “with” his Father before he was born.


    Mr. Steve and KJ –

    My post above is here for your review.

    I believe that the Son was “with” the Father in the form of SEED (the potential for a son) – the same way earthly Father's carry their seed with them, or an apple has it's seed within it.

    Thoughts.

    #63357
    kenrch
    Participant

    Group: Regular Members
    Posts: 2364
    Joined: Oct. 2005  Posted: June 20 2007,12:34  

    ——————————————————————————–
    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 20 2007,12:25)
    Quote (kenrch @ June 20 2007,12:21)
    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 20 2007,12:10)
    Quote (kenrch @ June 20 2007,12:08)
    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 20 2007,11:41)
    Hi,
    Many would rewrite Jn 1.1 to read
    “In the beginning was the Word and the Word is in God and the Word is God”

    Yes and some would rewrite John 1:1 to say: In the beginning was the son and the son was with God.  Does the Word mean son?

    Not until John 1:14 did the Word become the SON.

    Joh 1:14  And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    K

    True!!!

    AH! We agree?! Believe it or not WJ I'd rather agree than disagree:D

    If we say the word was the son then are we not adding to scripture?

    K

    True. But we do disagree in that I believe the “Word was God”!

    I believe the word before flesh was part of God! Jesus and the Father are ONE, Yes?

    ————–
    MAN—FIRST DAY
    GOD–SEVENTH DAY
    2Jo 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
    Back to top

    #63426
    Mr. Steve
    Participant

    Not3in1;

    The best way to interpret scripture is with scripture. Christ said the seed is the Word of God. His word is eternal. Indeed, his word is eternal life and grows when it finds good ground. Christ was good ground because he was born of the word and begotten by God and every tree bringeth forth fruit after his kind. When God has children and the children obey they please God. Christ said he always did the things that pleased the Father. In response to the seed and the apple. Is not the seed part of the Apple. When you have an apple, don't you have seeds, too. In this manner the Word was God. Some believers that do not believe in the pre-existence of the Son of God only believe that Christ was God just as the seed is the apple. Again, the scriptures state that Christ made the worlds so he must have been begotten long before the foundation of our world and existed as the Son of God.

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