Is Jesus the Logos?

The Word of God

We know that God created all things through his Word.

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  He was with God in the beginning.  Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

1 John 1:1-3
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.

However, it is also written that God made all things through his son.

Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

Colossians 1:15-17
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities– all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet there is for us only one God, the Father, who is the Creator of all things and for whom we live; and there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things were created and through whom we live.

There seems to be a direct link with the Word and the Son in the above verses as both are said to be the agent by which God created all things. Or did God make all things through his Word as well as the Son? If there was a time when there was only God and his Word as we read in John 1:1-3, then know that Jesus is not only described in similar terms as that Word but that he is actually called the Word of God too.

Revelation 19:13
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

It seems that with God making all things through his Word, through his Son, and even through Wisdom, this either means that these are all different agents, thus God invoked a number of things to create the Universe, or they are one and the same, i.e., the Word is Jesus Christ before he was called Jesus. Christ.

We are told that the Word became flesh and that is an obvious reference in a book devoted to Jesus Christ in a passage of scripture about the origins of Jesus Christ. So this either means that Jesus was newly created from the Word as some teach or that he is the Word but took on another form, that of flesh when he came to earth. The latter seems the more likely explanation given that God created all things through the Son and the Word and that Jesus Christ is even called the ‘Word of God’.

Even if there were no direct references for Jesus being the Word of God, there would still be a whole raft of other verses to contend with. These verses speak of Jesus existence before he came as a man (outside of mentioning the Word).

  • “Before Abraham, I am”, – John 8:58
  • “to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.” – Jude 1:25,
  • He is before all things, and in him all things hold together –  Colossians 1:17.
  • etc.

Finally, we are told to not trust in the flesh, so if Jesus is only flesh, then should we trust him? After all we are explicitly taught that we are cursed if we trust in man. When we trust Jesus, are we trusting in man or the Word of God?

Jeremiah 17:5
This is what the LORD says: “Cursed is the one who trusts in man, who draws strength from mere flesh and whose heart turns away from the LORD.

For more on this subject try this writing:
Did Jesus pre-exist before his birth on earth

  • This topic has 25,959 replies, 116 voices, and was last updated 1 week ago by Keith.
Viewing 20 posts - 561 through 580 (of 25,961 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #53888
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,12:54)
    Hi 94,
    The last verse includes these other sheep, found righteous by their actions towards Christ in his brothers, and who are pleasantly surprised to be saved in the second resurrection, according to mt25


    No Nick:

    The last verse of the scripture that I quoted refers to the sheep that would follow Jesus from the gentile nations. You can not be a sheep unless you follow the Shepherd.

    #53889
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi 94,
    Any evidence for this claim? There is no longer Jew nor gentile in Christ-all are sheep of one fold. the verse rather speaks of separation, and 1000 years is a significant separation between the folds of sheep.

    #53896
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,13:05)
    Hi 94,
    Any evidence for this claim? There is no longer Jew nor gentile in Christ-all are sheep of one fold. the verse rather speaks of separation, and 1000 years is a significant separation between the folds of sheep.


    No Nick:

    You are trying interpret the scripture that I quoted to fit your belief relative to Matthew 25 which I don't believe is correct.

    You are right about there being one Shepherd and one Fold but Jesus first preached to the Jews as a Nation, and then delegated his disciples with authority to preach the gospel to all nations.  There is no Jew or gentile, male or female in the spirit of Christ.

    #53898
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi 94,
    Exactly.
    Who are the sheep of Mt25 if they are not another fold?

    Mt 25
    ” 31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

    32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

    33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

    34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

    35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

    36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

    37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

    38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

    39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

    40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.”

    They do not know they are saved.
    They do not expect salvation.
    They cannot point to the blood or the Spirit or the water as evidence[1Jn5.7f].
    They are saved by their works taken as righteousness in response to the promise of Jesus that no one will give his disciples a cup of water because they belong to him and not lose their reward.

    Mk 9
    “Mark 9:41
    For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.”

    #53899
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Nick, any ideas who these sheep are?

    #53900
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi not3
    James 2:13
    For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.

    I believe far more will find mercy than will find the way of Jesus.

    #53903
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Ah, I've thought this too. It's not a very popular teaching from the pulpit, however. Sad but true……

    Yes, here's to MERCY!

    #53910
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,13:41)
    Hi 94,
    Exactly.
    Who are the sheep of Mt25 if they are not another fold?

    Mt 25
    ” 31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

    32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

    33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

    34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

    35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

    36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

    37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

    38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

    39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

    40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.”

    They do not know they are saved.
    They do not expect salvation.
    They cannot point to the blood or the Spirit or the water as evidence[1Jn5.7f].
    They are saved by their works taken as righteousness in response to the promise of Jesus that no one will give his disciples a cup of water because they belong to him and not lose their reward.

    Mk 9
    “Mark 9:41
    For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.”


    Hi Nick:

    I understand this to mean that which commonly referred as the rapture when the sheep who have followed Jesus will go into life eternal and those who have not will suffer eternal punishement.

    Perhaps what is confusing to you is that the scipture says, “before him will be gathered all nations”, but we need to try to understand this from the standpoint of John 3:16-19, and those verses I have already quoted. You can not be a sheep unless you have followed the Shepherd.

    I believe that all of the illustrations in Matthew 25 relate to this.

    Also, I thought that the following scipture might help:

    Rev. 22:10
    And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
    22:11
    He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
    22:12
    And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

    #53912
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi 94,
    Mt 25 seems to speak clearly of those in the first resurrection facing the tribunal of reward of Christ[v1-32] and then from v 32 the second resurrection after the 1000 yr reign[rev 20] when the final judgement of those who have not already passed from death to life[jn5] occurs.

    #53915
    942767
    Participant

    Hi Nick:

    I missed the last part of your post relative to the fact that these did not know that they were saved. I'll have to do a little studying before I give you my understanding. I believe that Jesus uses this to illustrate a point, but I'll get back to you on this after some prayer to God asking for understanding.

    #53926
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi 94,
    Certainly v 1-13 refers to the rapture, sorry. And the necessary oil is the Spirit of God alive and active in the sons of God eagerly awaiting his return.

    #53928
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,13:41)
    Hi 94,
    Exactly.
    Who are the sheep of Mt25 if they are not another fold?

    Mt 25
    ” 31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

    32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

    33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

    34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

    35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

    36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

    37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

    38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

    39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

    40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.”

    They do not know they are saved.
    They do not expect salvation.
    They cannot point to the blood or the Spirit or the water as evidence[1Jn5.7f].
    They are saved by their works taken as righteousness in response to the promise of Jesus that no one will give his disciples a cup of water because they belong to him and not lose their reward.

    Mk 9
    “Mark 9:41
    For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.”


    Hi Nick:

    The scripture does not say that the righteous to whom Jesus is talking do not know that they are saved but what they do not know is that by doing those good deeds mentioned to his disciples they were in essence doing unto Jesus personally.

    Matt.25:34
    Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:  
    25:35
    For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:  
    25:36
    Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.  
    25:37
    THEN SHALL THE  RIGHTEOUS ANSWER HIM, SAYING, LORD, WHEN SAW WE THEE AND HUNGERED, and FED THEE? OR THRISTY, AND GAVE THEE DRINK ?  
    25:38
    * When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in ? or naked, and clothed thee?  
    25:39
    Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?  
    25:40
    AND THE KING SHALL ANSWER AND SAY UNTO THEM, VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, INASMUCH AS YE HAVE  DONE IT UNTO ONE OF THE LEAST OF THESE MY BRETHREN, YE HAVE DONE IT UNTO ME.  

    Maybe this will help.  I have to go for the night.

    God Bless

    #53931
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi 94,
    Are you hoping for salvation by works?
    If so you may find mercy in the second resurrection but only if those works are done to those in Christ.
    If you follow the way of Jesus it is his works not ours, that save us.

    #53932
    Not3in1
    Participant

    William Tyndale was not so sure that John's “word” was on-to-one the equivalent of Chist pre-existing.  He renders the famous verses:  “In the beginning was the word [with lower case], and the word was with God, and the word was God….All things were made by it….In it was life.”

    It seems strange that John 1:1-4, a handful of verses in John, and a few other NT passages should be allowed to overthrow the constant and massive biblical evidence for unitary monotheism.

    John does not present Jesus as an eternal member of a Triune Godhead but as the fulfillment of God's eternal plan to bring into being the Messiah.  For John, as well as for Paul, Jesus pre-existed in the mind and purpose of God, rather than literally as a timeless being.

    #53933
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi not3,
    You say
    “For John, as well as for Paul, Jesus pre-existed in the mind and purpose of God, rather than literally as a timeless being. “
    Was the Word, being as you see it in the mind of God, truly WITH GOD?

    #53934
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Do we not have our thoughts and purposes with us at all times?

    #53937
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi not3,
    In is not with.
    And my thoughts are not beloved.

    #53938
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Spliting hairs (in/with) – both can mean to contain and have very similar meanings.

    A man's “word” is the expression of his “mind.”

    Where does God say that the word in John 1:1 is beloved?

    #53951
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi not3,
    I think you would rewrite the start of Jn 1 as
    ” In the beginning God had a good idea…”

    #53953
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Ha…..well, not exactly. :) I'm just trying to reconcile a preexistent Son with the rest of scripture. The “Word” means something different, it seems, to so many. You think it is a spirit son. David thinks it is an angel. WJ thinks it is part of the Trinity………sigh.

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