Is Jesus the Logos?

The Word of God

We know that God created all things through his Word.

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  He was with God in the beginning.  Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

1 John 1:1-3
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.

However, it is also written that God made all things through his son.

Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

Colossians 1:15-17
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities– all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet there is for us only one God, the Father, who is the Creator of all things and for whom we live; and there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things were created and through whom we live.

There seems to be a direct link with the Word and the Son in the above verses as both are said to be the agent by which God created all things. Or did God make all things through his Word as well as the Son? If there was a time when there was only God and his Word as we read in John 1:1-3, then know that Jesus is not only described in similar terms as that Word but that he is actually called the Word of God too.

Revelation 19:13
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

It seems that with God making all things through his Word, through his Son, and even through Wisdom, this either means that these are all different agents, thus God invoked a number of things to create the Universe, or they are one and the same, i.e., the Word is Jesus Christ before he was called Jesus. Christ.

We are told that the Word became flesh and that is an obvious reference in a book devoted to Jesus Christ in a passage of scripture about the origins of Jesus Christ. So this either means that Jesus was newly created from the Word as some teach or that he is the Word but took on another form, that of flesh when he came to earth. The latter seems the more likely explanation given that God created all things through the Son and the Word and that Jesus Christ is even called the ‘Word of God’.

Even if there were no direct references for Jesus being the Word of God, there would still be a whole raft of other verses to contend with. These verses speak of Jesus existence before he came as a man (outside of mentioning the Word).

  • “Before Abraham, I am”, – John 8:58
  • “to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.” – Jude 1:25,
  • He is before all things, and in him all things hold together –  Colossians 1:17.
  • etc.

Finally, we are told to not trust in the flesh, so if Jesus is only flesh, then should we trust him? After all we are explicitly taught that we are cursed if we trust in man. When we trust Jesus, are we trusting in man or the Word of God?

Jeremiah 17:5
This is what the LORD says: “Cursed is the one who trusts in man, who draws strength from mere flesh and whose heart turns away from the LORD.

For more on this subject try this writing:
Did Jesus pre-exist before his birth on earth

Viewing 20 posts - 441 through 460 (of 25,961 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #51361
    Oxy
    Participant

    It is true that my use of the word trinity is in error if trinity means 3 equal, because as you say, that is not my belief. Having said that, I do believe in the oneness of the three.

    I do not agree with you my friend, that the Holy Spirit and the father are one and the same. I have spent considerable time searching the Scripture and have asked the Lord, and all that I have seen/heard still points to the Holy Spirit being the Spirit of God, but He is not the Father of Jesus. He is Himself, a third part of God.

    Blessings

    #51363
    martian
    Participant

    Quote (Guest @ Oct. 08 2003,14:11)
    Foot Note from the Greatest Hebrew to English Translation ever..;o)
    From (The Book Of Yahweh The Holy Scriptures)
    Yahchanan ( Hebrew which means Yahweh is Merciful )
    English John 1:1-5
    1: In the beginning was the PLAN of Yahweh and the PLAN was with Yahweh, and the PLAN was Yahweh's.
    2: The same PLAN was in the beginning with Yahweh.
    3: All things were done according to it, and without it
    nothing was done , that was done.
    4: In this PLAN was life, and that life was the light to mankind.
    5: Now that light shines in the darkness, but the darkness does not take hold of it.

    PLAN: Translated from the Greek LOGOS- meaning something said including the thoughts; by implication: a topic or subject of set discourse; also reasoning with the mental faculties, and motive. Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Page 380-382. This Greek word LOGOS shows to be itself the Greek translation of the ORIGINAL Hebrew word DABAR, which means: Yahweh's revealed will….His WHOLE PLAN and purpose for mankind. Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, Volume 4, Page 870-871.

    To view this page of the Scriptures go to

    Home

    Iyyob


    You are quite correct in your post. It is even more simple then that. Those who claim the Logos is a person ie:Jesus take a few scriptures where the term Logos is used and give them a completely different meaning then the other 500 times it is used in scripture. This is contrary to the most elementary principles of Bible Study. Instead of line upon line and precept upon precept, they pull scriptues out of context and twist them out of scripture to support a doctrine.
    The term logos can be translated as plan, intention, statement or speach.

    #51366
    Oxy
    Participant

    Quote (martian @ May 04 2007,14:13)
    You are quite correct in your post. It is even more simple then that. Those who claim the Logos is a person ie:Jesus take a few scriptures where the term Logos is used and give them a completely different meaning then the other 500 times it is used in scripture. This is contrary to the most elementary principles of Bible Study. Instead of line upon line and precept upon precept, they pull scriptues out of context and twist them out of scripture to support a doctrine.
    The term logos can be translated as plan, intention, statement or speach.


    I have to disagree. The lord gave me revelation of this quite some years ago and then took me into Scripture to show me what He was talking about. He showed me that Jesus is the logos and Him alone, as shown on my page http://www.all4god.net/word_of_god.htm

    I have heard many people argue against this revelation to the point that I doubted it myself, but when I went back to the Lord He showed me new revelation from Scripture that backed up what He first showed me.

    This has happened a number of times over the years, but my experience is that Jesus is glorified in the Scriptures. The Scriptures make a lot more sense, and God is glorified.

    Nowhere in Scripture is Scripture called the Word of God, yet people insist on calling it that.

    My relationship with God has been remarkable since He taught me that Jesus is, was and always will be the logos. There is no other.

    Blessings

    #51391
    kenrch
    Participant

    Quote (Oxy @ May 04 2007,12:28)
    It is true that my use of the word trinity is in error if trinity means 3 equal, because as you say, that is not my belief.  Having said that, I do believe in the oneness of the three.

    I do not agree with you my friend, that the Holy Spirit and the father are one and the same.  I have spent considerable time searching the Scripture and have asked the Lord, and all that I have seen/heard still points to the Holy Spirit being the Spirit of God, but He is not the Father of Jesus.  He is Himself, a third part of God.

    Blessings


    God is a Spirit who has a spirit with no name? Take a part that doesn't belong in the puzzel then trim it to fit but it still doesn't fit correctly, no more than changing the Sabbath day. All are from the Harlot. :)

    So Oxy their are TWO Spirits? God is a Spirit and He has a Spirit Yet His Word tells us there is one Spirit.

    Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.

    Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

    Luk 12:10 And every one who shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Spirit it shall not be forgiven.

    Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

    Exo 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

    You can blaspheme the Son of Man but not what is in the Son of Man~God~the Spirit that's what God is a Spirit. There is only one Spirit the Holy Spirit and that Spirit is God.
    If you blaspheme the Holy Spirit you blaspheme GOD! You blaspheme both Father and Son.

    Is the Son above the Spirit? Jesus didn't think so!

    So the Father is greater than the Son and the Father is greater than Himself????? ???

    #51395
    Oxy
    Participant

    You are correct my friend. God is Spirit. So also is the Holy Spirit a spirit. Also, my understanding is that the Word of God was spirit before He was born man.

    I do think you are being a little silly though.. admit it Kenrch. :)

    #51405
    kenrch
    Participant

    Quote (Oxy @ May 05 2007,08:59)
    You are correct my friend. God is Spirit.  So also is the Holy Spirit a spirit.  Also, my understanding is that the Word of God was spirit before He was born man.

    I do think you are being a little silly though.. admit it Kenrch.  :)


    Don't archangels have names. Wouldn't that imply that ALL angels (spirit beings) have names except the Holy Spirit of course :laugh:

    You ever hear of Michael or Gabriel :laugh:

    Seems like everyone has a name but the poor third person :laugh:

    Oxy if want to continue to keep the harlot's doctrine then by all means you have a choice but the Spirit tried to tell you about that false doctrine but you couldn't let go so you changed it but it is still the harlot's doctrine doctored up.

    IHN&L,

    Ken :D

    #51412
    Oxy
    Participant

    Quote (kenrch @ May 05 2007,16:50)

    Quote (Oxy @ May 05 2007,08:59)
    You are correct my friend. God is Spirit.  So also is the Holy Spirit a spirit.  Also, my understanding is that the Word of God was spirit before He was born man.

    I do think you are being a little silly though.. admit it Kenrch.  :)


    Don't archangels have names.  Wouldn't that imply that ALL angels (spirit beings) have names except the Holy Spirit of course :laugh:

    You ever hear of Michael or Gabriel  :laugh:

    Seems like everyone has a name but the poor third person :laugh:

    Oxy if want to continue to keep the harlot's doctrine then by all means you have a choice but the Spirit tried to tell you about that false doctrine but you couldn't let go so you changed it but it is still the harlot's doctrine doctored up.

    IHN&L,

    Ken :D


    Ken, I don't like your attitudemy friend. Just because we don't agree on a point doesn't mean you can start making nasty allegations.

    Are you implying the Word of God was an archangel? Please back that one up with Scripture!

    #51421
    kenrch
    Participant

    Quote (Oxy @ May 05 2007,18:09)

    Quote (kenrch @ May 05 2007,16:50)

    Quote (Oxy @ May 05 2007,08:59)
    You are correct my friend. God is Spirit.  So also is the Holy Spirit a spirit.  Also, my understanding is that the Word of God was spirit before He was born man.

    I do think you are being a little silly though.. admit it Kenrch.  :)


    Don't archangels have names.  Wouldn't that imply that ALL angels (spirit beings) have names except the Holy Spirit of course :laugh:

    You ever hear of Michael or Gabriel  :laugh:

    Seems like everyone has a name but the poor third person :laugh:

    Oxy if want to continue to keep the harlot's doctrine then by all means you have a choice but the Spirit tried to tell you about that false doctrine but you couldn't let go so you changed it but it is still the harlot's doctrine doctored up.

    IHN&L,

    Ken :D


    Ken, I don't like your attitudemy friend.  Just because we don't agree on a point doesn't mean you can start making nasty allegations.  

    Are you implying the Word of God was an archangel?  Please back that one up with Scripture!


    My point Oxy was that even angels who are spirit beings have names. Even before Jesus was the WORD. Your third person has NO NAME.

    Michael, Gabriel and I'm sure ALL spirit beings (angels ) have names everyone but the third person!

    Don't you think your being a little silly!

    The facts are the facts and the fact is that the Trinity was instituted by Constantine in the 3rd century.

    You even know the Trinty is wrong so you changed the definition just slightly that you may keep your Harlot tradition.

    Come out of her Oxy Rev. 18:4

    IHN&L,

    Ken

    BTW if you find the Truth harsh I'm sorry :(

    #51425
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (Oxy @ May 05 2007,08:59)
    You are correct my friend. God is Spirit.  So also is the Holy Spirit a spirit.  Also, my understanding is that the Word of God was spirit before He was born man.

    I do think you are being a little silly though.. admit it Kenrch.  :)


    Hi Oxy,
    The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, not another person.

    #51428
    Oxy
    Participant

    Quote (kenrch @ May 06 2007,00:32)
    My point Oxy was that even angels who are spirit beings have names.  Even before Jesus was the WORD.  Your third person has NO NAME.

    Michael, Gabriel and I'm sure ALL spirit beings (angels ) have names everyone but the third person!  

    Don't you think your being a little silly!

    The facts are the facts and the fact is that the Trinity was instituted by Constantine in the 3rd century.

    You even know the Trinty is wrong so you changed the definition just slightly that you may keep your Harlot tradition.

    Come out of her Oxy  Rev. 18:4

    IHN&L,

    Ken

    BTW if you find the Truth harsh I'm sorry :(


    Ken, you say even before Jesus was the Word? The Word was in the beginning. There was no before!

    I do not like your perception of the truth Ken and I like your attitude even less.

    Because you have an obsession with names, it doesn't mean you can rewrite Scripture.

    Jesus referred to the Holy Spirit as “He” and also spoke of His Father seperately. Was Jesus confused?

    #51429
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Oxy,
    Inference alone is just speculation.
    To teach about God from it rather than what is said about God is unwise

    #51437
    Oxy
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 06 2007,07:16)
    Hi Oxy,
    Inference alone is just speculation.
    To teach about God from it rather than what is said about God is unwise


    The question I have for you Nick, is that you seem to think it ok to deny the person of the Holy Spirit, even though Jesus repeatedly refers to Him as “He”, yet you criticise me for believing what the Scriptures say. How come?

    #51439
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Oxy,
    Did Jesus say the Holy Spirit was another person?

    What he did say was
    Lk 4
    “18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, “

    Was he saying he was anointed WITH another person?

    #51441
    Oxy
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 06 2007,07:57)
    Hi Oxy,
    Did Jesus say the Holy Spirit was another person?

    What he did say was
    Lk 4
    “18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, “

    Was he saying he was anointed WITH another person?


    The Holy Spirit was seen to descend upon Jesus:

    Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when He had been baptized, went up immediately out of the water. And lo, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting upon Him.

    Was it the Father that came upon Him? No, the Father spoke from Heaven saying:
    Mat 3:17 And lo, a voice from Heaven, saying, This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    These are two consecutive verses. The Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus and the father spoke from Heaven.

    #51443
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Oxy,
    Is the Holy Spirit a dove?
    “18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, “

    The Spirit is the Spirit of the Lord God Who has anointed Christ for ministry.

    #51445
    Oxy
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 06 2007,08:48)
    Hi Oxy,
    Is the Holy Spirit a dove?
    “18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, “

    The Spirit is the Spirit of the Lord God Who has anointed Christ for ministry.


    Is the Holy Spirit a dove? Doesn't that fall into the silly question category?

    It is written in Scripture that “the Spirit of God descending like a dove”

    #51448
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Oxy,
    Did you say the Spirit of God?
    I agree.
    It is the Spirit of God.

    #51459
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (Oxy @ May 06 2007,08:45)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 06 2007,07:57)
    Hi Oxy,
    Did Jesus say the Holy Spirit was another person?

    What he did say was
    Lk 4
    “18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, “

    Was he saying he was anointed WITH another person?


    The Holy Spirit was seen to descend upon Jesus:

    Mat 3:16  And Jesus, when He had been baptized, went up immediately out of the water. And lo, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting upon Him.

    Was it the Father that came upon Him?  No, the Father spoke from Heaven saying:
    Mat 3:17  And lo, a voice from Heaven, saying, This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    These are two consecutive verses.  The Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus and the father spoke from Heaven.


    Hi Oxy,
    Possibly only Jesus and John the baptist saw the dove.
    Matthew 3:16
    And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
    Mark 1:10
    And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
    Luke 3:22
    And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
    John 1:32
    And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

    You agreed that the Spirit IS NOT a dove but that what was seen was for the eyes of men just as the fire seen at Pentecost was confirming the work of God sending the Spirit.

    #51460
    kenrch
    Participant

    Quote (Oxy @ May 06 2007,07:14)

    Quote (kenrch @ May 06 2007,00:32)
    My point Oxy was that even angels who are spirit beings have names.  Even before Jesus was the WORD.  Your third person has NO NAME.

    Michael, Gabriel and I'm sure ALL spirit beings (angels ) have names everyone but the third person!  

    Don't you think your being a little silly!

    The facts are the facts and the fact is that the Trinity was instituted by Constantine in the 3rd century.

    You even know the Trinty is wrong so you changed the definition just slightly that you may keep your Harlot tradition.

    Come out of her Oxy  Rev. 18:4

    IHN&L,

    Ken

    BTW if you find the Truth harsh I'm sorry :(


    Ken, you say even before Jesus was the Word?  The Word was in the beginning.  There was no before!

    I do not like your perception of the truth Ken and I like your attitude even less.

    Because you have an obsession with names, it doesn't mean you can rewrite Scripture.

    Jesus referred to the Holy Spirit as “He” and also spoke of His Father seperately.  Was Jesus confused?


    No Oxy Jesus wasn't confused He knew that He had the Spirit of Jehovah. He knew that when the Holy Spirit filled Him with Joy that it was the Father.

    Luk 10:21 In that hour the Holy Spirit filled Jesus with joy. Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, for hiding these things from wise and intelligent people and revealing them to little children. Yes, Father, this is what pleased you.

    It is you my friend that is confused. You think that the Father IF HE HAD another PERSON other than His Son He would not give that person a name?! Every being ever created has a name! You DISHONOR the Holy Spirit by saying he has no name. Even my dog has a name!

    It is amazing how blind you pretend to be in order to keep your “new” tradition which isn't new at all. A child of the Harlot. Sorry but that's what you do you keep and defend her doctrines. When the Holy Spirit tells you “HIS” name let me know. Oh! He doesn't have one that's right! Sad very sad that the harlot has even stolen your common sense.

    IHN,

    Ken

    #51482
    Unisage
    Participant

    The way I learn was the Mind thought and plan of God.

    As per

    Romans 4:17

    17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead,
    and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

    1 Peter 1:19-20
    19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained (foreknown, destined) before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times,for you

    Revelation 13:8 (KJV)
    8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    If we apply the logic of a literal preexistence of Christ to this verse we would have to conclude that Christ was slain upon the cross long before Creation…

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