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  • August 11, 2015 at 9:51 am#801997
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    As for the Holy Spirit, my belief is that God is holy and God is spirit. Thus he can legitimately be described as a Holy Spirit and more accurately as the Holy Spirit and not just one of many.

    1 Peter 1:16
    for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”

    John 4:24
    God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

    Further, scripture clearly says that “The LORD is actually the Spirit” and we know that the Father is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit took part in his conception in Mary. If the Holy Spirit was another person, then Jesus would have two fathers in the sense that he had the Heavenly Father before the cosmos and another as far as his earthly life went. I suppose even another as he was a son of Joseph through adoption.

    2 Corinthians 3:17
    Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

    Also, if God is Spirit and he imparts his spirit into redeemed vessels, and if he will eventually be in all and through all, then that would suggest that God the Father will inhabit all by his own spirit. And we know he is the God of the living not the dead, so his spirit is life and the source of all life for his creation and also for his son.

    1 Corinthians 15:28
    When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

    Luke 20:38
    He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

    John 6:63
    The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing.

    Finally, we are taught in scripture that he is the Father of spirits.

    Hebrews 12:9
    Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live!

    August 11, 2015 at 10:40 am#802002
    Ed J
    Participant

    Good stuff Guys,

    I have two questions to add to this discussion.

    Who did Ananias lie to in Acts 5:3-4?

    1. Peter
    2. The power of God
    3. God

    And is not the “Holy Spirit” indeed referenced in Hebrews 12:9 as being the “Father of spirits”?

    “Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence:
    shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?” (Heb 12:9)

    “Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph,
    before they came together, she was found with child of the HolySpirit.” (Matt 1:18)

    _______________
    Your brother
    in Christ
    Ed J

    August 11, 2015 at 10:45 am#802003
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Everyone,

    The bible clearly says the “HolySpirit” fathered Jesus.

    …does it not?

    August 11, 2015 at 11:57 am#802004
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    I agree. But the word ‘fathered’ has other meanings. I can’t think of a better word to use in the opening post though.

    August 11, 2015 at 1:35 pm#802015
    kerwin
    Participant

    Ed,

    I understand that “the father of our spirits” is God as spirit is born of Spirit.

    August 11, 2015 at 2:05 pm#802022
    terraricca
    Participant

    t8

    I agree. But the word ‘fathered’ has other meanings. I can’t think of a better word to use in the opening post though.

    “life giver”

    August 12, 2015 at 6:49 pm#802076
    wilsunphi
    Participant

    Hi t8,

    If God had wished he could have made Jesus’ body with just 23 chromosomes (just from Mary). We don’t know how Jesus’ body was made. That is why i advice to stick to the text without making assumptions (like using words like ‘fathered’) by extrapolating using our knowledge about the physical world when it comes to the power of God. It was a similar mistake the Sadducees made in their question to Jesus – they just couldn’t imagine that God could remove the male/female distinction in afterlife.

    God is the person who enforces the laws of physics at all times and at all places. Without that no cells will work and hence not even the normal conception will work. So by your logic even in a normal conception, there will be multiple physical fathers.

    For salvation knowledge of God and of Jesus as the Only Begotten Son of God is necessary. That is why the Bible makes it very easy to understand (although people have made mistakes on that as well with the concept of the Trinity). That is why God has gone to such extent as make the Father-Son relationship in this world, so that he can point to it and say this is how i am to Jesus.

    But about the different personhood of the Holy Spirit, i don’t think God expects us to take a position on that for salvation. So IMHO it is better to not use just our knowledge of the world to understand God and the Holy Spirit. (I know the Bible says that God is spirit, but that does not mean he cannot have a spirit of his own. I fear you are using assumptions from this world to understand God.) That is why i advice you to not take a position on that to not do blasphemy.

    -Wilson

    August 12, 2015 at 8:01 pm#802077
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi t8,

    (1)If God had wished he could have made Jesus’ body with just 23 chromosomes (just from Mary). We don’t know how Jesus’ body was made. That is why i advice to stick to the text without making assumptions (like using words like ‘fathered’) by extrapolating using our knowledge about the physical world when it comes to the power of God. (2)It was a similar mistake the Sadducees made in their question to Jesus – they just couldn’t imagine that God could remove the male/female distinction in afterlife.

    God is the person who enforces the laws of physics at all times and at all places. Without that no cells will work and hence not even the normal conception will work. So by your logic even in a normal conception, there will be multiple physical fathers.

    Hi Wilson,

    1. Here is a very interesting video, in it he suggests
    that Christ’s blood was sprinkled on “The Ark” of God.

    2. Are you not also making an assumption outside of biblical text
    to suggest sex and the male/female distinction is removed in the afterlife?
    Then why even eat food if you don’t really have to, or what about the mention of wine?

    Maybe our taste-buds are also removed, who knows ???

    _______________
    God bless
    Ed J

    August 13, 2015 at 12:47 am#802080
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    If God had wished he could have made Jesus’ body with just 23 chromosomes (just from Mary). We don’t know how Jesus’ body was made. That is why i advice to stick to the text without making assumptions (like using words like ‘fathered’) by extrapolating using our knowledge about the physical world when it comes to the power of God. It was a similar mistake the Sadducees made in their question to Jesus – they just couldn’t imagine that God could remove the male/female distinction in afterlife.

    I see your point. The word ‘Fathered’ can mean contributing chromosomes and other things. Basically you are saying that we should not assume that God replaced a human father because God is capable of anything, thus it did not necessarily happen that way. However, there was no physical father involved from what I can tell, so he may have replaced a human father but in a way that we know not.

    So I agree with your concern, but when I used the word ‘fathered’ it wasn’t meant to say that this was the case, only that God was his Father and he was the son of God. To be a son of a father is to be fathered I would have thought.

    God the Father is our father because he is the Father of Spirits and all who live are given that life from him. So in a sense we are fathered by God which is not to be taken in a physical way, although all creation originally came from him. However, your point does show that some could make of the word ‘fathered’ in a way that we have not been specifically taught in scripture.

    My question is then, what word is best to use regarding the Spirit coming upon Mary and conceiving a child who was called Jesus, (without Joseph). If not ‘fathered’, then what? After all it is written that the Holy Spirit came upon Mary. In what way we do not know, but God also came upon the prophets too when he spoke through them. And yes, we have no proof as to Jesus biological makeup accept to say that he came in the flesh but was without sin. He was the second Adam.

    August 13, 2015 at 4:50 am#802082
    kerwin
    Participant

    t8 and Wilsunphi,

    God could of have cloned Mary and manipulate the DNA so the resultant child was a male or he could of preserved a male gamete of David or one of his descendants for as long as he wanted then non-invasively artificially inseminated her.

    The single chromosome is extremely unlikely as according to his design such a child would be a female if it could even live.

    I am going to say biologically Jesus was a fairly normal child as there is no evidence otherwise.

    August 13, 2015 at 5:56 pm#802108
    wilsunphi
    Participant

    Hi EdJ,

    1) I will try to see this over the weekend. I recall hearing about this long back.

    2) I was speaking in the context of Matthew 22.

    <span id=”en-NASB-23902″ class=”text Matt-22-29″><sup class=”versenum”>29 </sup>But Jesus answered and said to them, <span class=”woj”>“You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God.</span></span> <span id=”en-NASB-23903″ class=”text Matt-22-30″><span class=”woj”><sup class=”versenum”>30 </sup>For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.</span></span>

    (As a side note that means that most probably in resurrection all the romantic feelings, lust etc. will go away. Why do you think Paul advises us to not waste time romancing females? Because he knows that in the afterlife that will be a wasted effort. 🙂 Probably only platonic love remains.)

    Hi t8,

    I think we can say like Mary became pregnant through the power of the Holy Spirit. I was fearing that using the word fathered means giving the title of the Father of Jesus to the Holy Spirit as well, in addition to God the Father. Such a title is not used anywhere in the Bible for the Holy Spirit.

    Hi Kerwin,

    I haven’t seen the video, i assume what you wrote is about the video (i recall hearing about this long back). I will try to reply after i see it.

    But the purpose of the virgin birth was so that Jesus does not inherit any sin from the male father. So Jesus’ father is only God and not David or any of his descendants.

    -Wilson

     

    August 13, 2015 at 10:22 pm#802109
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Wilson.

    So you think Jesus had a head start?

    He did not have to be an overcomer?

    Scripture disagrees rev 3.21

    You can follow him.

    August 14, 2015 at 1:26 am#802114
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Hi Wilson…..Where does any scripture say we “inherit” sin. Jesus did have a head start though, GOD THE FATHER was with him from the start. He was able to not sin because GOD THE FATHER was with him. He was anointed with the SPIRIT OF GOD AT THE JORDAN RIVER, and then was sent out to be tempted by the devil in the wilderness. Jesus overcme SATAN BY THE HOLY SPIRIT ABIDING “IN” HIM which supplied him the intellect to overcome the world and Satan. God the Father was guiding him and giving him the intellegence he needed to do what he did.
    Psa 25:12-15

    As far as his berth goes, GOD SUPPLIED HIS MALE DNA, IN MARY’S WOMB. That was no big deal for him to do, but none of that made JESUS ANY DIFFERENT THEN WE ARE. It was no bigger a miracle then when he created Adam and Eve. Jesus overcame all things by the effectual workings of the SPIRIT OF GOD in him. We must also. Just as it says, “he that overcomes “even” as I have”, that begs the question of how did he overcome, ANSWER, BY HIS FAITH IN GOD THE FATHER. WE CAN ALSO OVERCOME, THAT SAME WAY. We must as JESUS did come to trust in GOD THE FATHER WITH ALL OUR HEART SOUL AND MIGHT, OUR COMPLETE BEING. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours. ………….gene

    August 14, 2015 at 3:49 am#802116
    terraricca
    Participant

    hi Gene

    you know we have argue many times about being drawn to God or from God and we never could agree ,but this lately was in my mine ,and came to the understanding that we are both right ,but first we have to be drawn to God(meaning we search him) before God draws us to him ,

    this I can easily show in scriptures

    August 14, 2015 at 3:49 am#802117
    terraricca
    Participant

    hi Gene

    you know we have argued many times about being drawn to God or from God and we never could agree ,but this lately was in my mine ,and came to the understanding that we are both right ,but first we have to be drawn to God(meaning we search him) before God draws us to him ,

    this I can easily show in scriptures

    August 14, 2015 at 7:05 am#802120
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi GB

    “Jesus overcme SATAN BY THE HOLY SPIRIT ABIDING “IN” HIM which supplied him the intellect to overcome the world and Satan. God the Father was guiding him and giving him the intellegence he needed to do what he did.”

    Adding to what is revealed makes this false teaching.

    “out of the mouth comes what the heart is full of..”

    August 14, 2015 at 9:21 am#802127
    kerwin
    Participant

    Wilsonphi,

    Hi Kerwin,

    I haven’t seen the video, i assume what you wrote is about the video (i recall hearing about this long back). I will try to reply after i see it.

    But the purpose of the virgin birth was so that Jesus does not inherit any sin from the male father. So Jesus’ father is only God and not David or any of his descendants.

    I did not see the video.

    Scripture does not say the sin is inherited from anyone including the male father.

    It actually make the point that a man dies for his own sin. (Ezekiel 18:20)

    The original sin tenet is flawed though we suffer from the effect of Adam’s sin to this day.

    Scripture actually tells us the virgin birth is a sign in Isaiah 7:14 but since Matthew did not quote that part I can not guarantee it applies even though is sounds reasonable it would. Matthew was clearly more concerned with the words he quoted.

    August 14, 2015 at 10:37 am#802134
    NickHassan
    Participant

    hi KW,

    The curse of unclean ness on mankind also comes through being born of a woman Jb 25

    Jesus was born of a woman gal 4.4

    August 14, 2015 at 11:28 am#802138
    kerwin
    Participant

    Nick,

    Job 25:24 gives voice to the mystery of Godliness.

    The answer is to live by the Spirit and that can only be done through faith Jesus Christ.

    August 14, 2015 at 11:30 am#802139
    kerwin
    Participant

    Wilsonphi,

    Nick is correct that Job 25:24 also disagrees with the idea that the original sin is inherited through the father.

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