Where is Jesus in the Old Testament?

Many argue that Jesus is not mentioned in the Old Testament. Of course many religious Jews believe this to be the case because they do not believe he is the prophecied messiah. But there are also others who are not religious Jews who believe the Old Testament scriptures never mention or allude to Jesus being the messiah. Is this correct? Did the New Testament writers get a little too creative when they claim that Jesus fulfilled prophecies in the scriptures? Let’s take a look.

There is no argument that the New Testament contains gospels, letters, and teachings centred around the theme that Jesus is the Messiah. And we know that the Old Testament talks about the Messiah. But is there enough evidence to link this messiah to Jesus. Is there proof that he fulfilled the prophecies of the coming messiah as written in the Old Testament?

Yes indeed. There are Old Testament scriptures and prophecies that only Jesus of Nazareth has fulfilled. While his name is not mentioned for obvious reasons, Jesus Christ is certainly the only person in history to fulfil the prophecies and scriptures that we will look at.

Isaiah 51

This verse of the suffering messiah clearly speaks of Jesus. If you asked anybody who this verse is talking about, there is no doubt that the average person on the street would say it was Jesus. Even if you asked the average Jew this question, they too would say it is Jesus (Yeshua). Below is a video that proves this statement.

Next, we take a closer look at this chapter. While it seems to clearly point to Jesus Christ, some argue that it is talking about Israel. This is the go to interpretation for those who deny Jesus. Let’s imagine this is true and draw some conclusions from this interpretation to see if it makes any kind of sense. Listed below are the points this chapter makes that do not fit at all with Israel. The list comprises of 4 sentences with the word ‘Israel’ added in to see if it makes any sense. Following on from that, are the actual words of Isaiah 51.

  1. Israel has no beauty or majesty to attract us to him;
  2. Israel took up our pain,  bore our suffering, pierced for our transgressions, and by Israel’s wounds we are healed;
  3. Israel was assigned a grave with the wicked,  and with the rich in his death, though Israel had done no violence;
  4. Israel poured out his life as an offering for sin and will justify many,  and bear their iniquities.

1. Who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
    and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
    nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
    a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
    he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
    and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
    stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
    each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
    the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
    yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
    and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
    Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
    for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
    and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
    and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
    he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
    and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
    and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
    and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
    and made intercession for the transgressors.

If you are fair and unbiased, it seems that Isaiah 51 is talking about Jesus. Further, Israel doesn’t seem to fit in this verse. While somethings could fit, points like suffering and dying for the sins of humanity doesn’t fit with Israel in the slightest.


Psalm 22

Just before Jesus died on the cross for humanities sins, he quoted Psalm 22:1. It is important to know that it was a practice to quote a scripture and the hearers recite the rest of the scripture. It was a good way to remember the scriptures. Jesus quoted the first verse in that Psalm so that the hearers might understand what was happening before their eyes. See Matthew 27:46:

About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?”
(which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

Now look at Psalm 22:

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
    “let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
    since he delights in him.”
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
    and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs surround me,
    a pack of villains encircles me;
    they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
    and cast lots for my garment.

If you look at the above scripture and particularly the verses that are bolded, you will see that they are a very apt description for the death of Jesus. Let’s read what John wrote regarding the time just after the death of Jesus. It spells out some of the prophecies that were fulfilled.

John 19

31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.
33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.
36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”
37 and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”

The New Testament writers certainly believed that Jesus fulfilled Old Testament scripture. If you do not believe this to be the case, then ask yourself who in history has fulfilled these. If you are rational about it, you would at least have to admit that Jesus was the lead contender. In fact the only contender to date.


Daniel 3

In the Book of Daniel, it appears that the Son of God makes an appearance with three men who have been cast alive into a furnace. A fourth person appears who King Nebuchadnezzar says “the fourth looks like a son of the gods.” In other words, if the gods had a son, then this was him. Of course, there is but one Almighty God, and yes he does have a son. It is possible that this fourth person is an angel, but throughout the Old Testament an appearance of the Angel of the LORD is frequent. Many say that this is Jesus Christ before he came in the flesh, but others say it cannot be him as the Son of God was never an angel. This view does have a lot of merit though. Let’s address it by first reading Daniel 3:15-25.

15 Now when you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipe and all kinds of music, if you are ready to fall down and worship the image I made, very good. But if you do not worship it, you will be thrown immediately into a blazing furnace. Then what god will be able to rescue you from my hand?” 16 Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to him, “King Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. 17 If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to deliver us from it, and he will deliver us[c] from Your Majesty’s hand. 18 But even if he does not, we want you to know, Your Majesty, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.” 19 Then Nebuchadnezzar was furious with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, and his attitude toward them changed. He ordered the furnace heated seven times hotter than usual 20 and commanded some of the strongest soldiers in his army to tie up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego and throw them into the blazing furnace. 21 So these men, wearing their robes, trousers, turbans and other clothes, were bound and thrown into the blazing furnace. 22 The king’s command was so urgent and the furnace so hot that the flames of the fire killed the soldiers who took up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, 23 and these three men, firmly tied, fell into the blazing furnace. 24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar leaped to his feet in amazement and asked his advisers, “Weren’t there three men that we tied up and threw into the fire?” They replied, “Certainly, Your Majesty.” 25 He said, “Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods.”

The word Angel is found throughout the Old Testament. It usually refers to heavenly creature who delivers a message from God to humans. However, it can also refer to humans as they can be messengers too. Thus, angel or messenger can be applied to many kinds of being if they are a messenger of God. So this answers the concern that Jesus is not an angel. He actually is an angel or messenger, but not the usual messenger which are usually heavenly cherubs etc.

But there is a also a specific angel called: ‘The Angel of the LORD’ who appears numerous times in the Old Testament, but never in the New Testament. One reason for this could be that this messenger is none other than Jesus Christ before coming in the flesh and who would deny that Jesus is the main Messenger of God?

If this is him, then you would expect no appearances of this messenger during the time Jesus was alive on Earth and this is the case. It is also interesting to note that persons who saw this messenger as recorded in the Old Testament often said that they have seen God even though God himself is invisible. How do we make sense of this? Well in Colossians 1:15-16 we read:

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Colossians certainly fits with Jesus being the Angel of the LORD in the sense that there is no double up of them appearing at the same time and the fact that Jesus Christ is the exact image of the invisible God in bodily form whiches matches the description of seeing God. Let’s read more about the Angel of the LORD to see if this could be the identity of Jesus before he was born into this world.

To be continued.

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  • #29688
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Mercy,
    You said
    “No man hath seen God at any time;”
    And that means to you that when men have thought they saw God they must have seen Jesus?
    Why?

    #29700
    david
    Participant

    Quote
    Hi Mercy,
    You said
    “No man hath seen God at any time;”
    And that means to you that when men have thought they saw God they must have seen Jesus?
    Why?

    Perhaps, its the rest of that verse, that explains why he believes that:

    JOHN 1:18
    “No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.”

    It has not been necessary for the great Creator of the universe to come down from his lofty place in the heavens in order to deliver messages to certain humans. Aside from the three recorded instances when God’s own voice was heard while his Son was on the earth, Jehovah has always used angels to transmit His messages. (Matthew 3:17; 17:5; John 12:28) Even the Law that God gave to the nation of Israel at Mount Sinai was transmitted by angels, although Moses was represented as talking directly with God himself. Regarding this, the apostle Paul wrote: “Why, then, the Law? It was added to make transgressions manifest, until the seed should arrive to whom the promise had been made; and it was transmitted through angels by the hand of a mediator.”—Galatians 3:19.

    That Moses actually spoke with an angel who was personally representing God is also indicated at Acts 7:38, which states: “This is he that came to be among the congregation in the wilderness with the angel that spoke to him on Mount Sinai and with our forefathers.” That angel was the personal spokesman for Jehovah God, the Creator, and so he spoke to Moses as if God himself were speaking.

    The angel who delivered God’s message to Moses at the burning thornbush was also a spokesman. He is identified as Jehovah’s angel at Exodus 3:2, where we are told: “Jehovah’s angel appeared to him in a flame of fire in the midst of a thornbush.” Verse 4 says: “When Jehovah saw that he turned aside to inspect, God at once called to him out of the midst of the thornbush.” In verse 6, this angelic spokesman for God said: “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” So when speaking with this personal representative of God, Moses spoke as if he were speaking to Jehovah himself.—Exodus 4:10.

    In the 6th chapter of Judges, we find another example of a man speaking to God through an angelic representative. Verse 11 identifies the message bearer as “Jehovah’s angel.” There we read: “Later Jehovah’s angel came and sat under the big tree that was in Ophrah, which belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, while Gideon his son was beating out wheat in the winepress so as to get it quickly out of the sight of Midian.” This messenger, “Jehovah’s angel,” is thereafter represented as if he were Jehovah God himself. In verses 14 and 15, we read: “Upon that Jehovah faced [Gideon] and said: ‘Go in this power of yours, and you will certainly save Israel out of Midian’s palm. Do I not send you?’ In turn he said to him: ‘Excuse me, Jehovah. With what shall I save Israel?’” So the materialized angel seen by Gideon and with whom he spoke is represented in the Biblical account as if he were God himself. In verse 22, Gideon says: “I have seen Jehovah’s angel face to face!” The angel spoke precisely what God told him to speak. Therefore, Gideon spoke with God through this angelic spokesman.

    Consider, too, the case of Manoah and his wife, the parents of Samson. This account also speaks of the angelic messenger as “Jehovah’s angel” and “the angel of the true God.” (Judges 13:2-18) In verse 22, Manoah says to his wife: “We shall positively die, because it is God that we have seen.” Although he did not actually see Jehovah God, Manoah felt that way because he had seen the materialized personal spokesman for God.

    “No Man Has Seen God”

    Now it is possible to understand why Abraham addressed the materialized angelic spokesman of God as if he were talking to Jehovah God himself. Since this angel spoke precisely what God wanted to have said to Abraham and was there personally representing Him, the Biblical record could say that “Jehovah appeared to him.”—Genesis 18:1.

    Remember that an angelic spokesman for God could transmit His messages just as precisely as a telephone or a radio can transmit our words to another person. Hence, it can be understood how Abraham, Moses, Manoah, and others could speak with a materialized angel as if they were talking to God. While such individuals were able to see these angels and the glory of Jehovah reflected by them, they were not able to see God. Therefore, this in no way contradicts the apostle John’s statement: “No man has seen God at any time.” (John 1:18) What these men saw were angelic representatives and not God himself.

    #29720
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi Mercy.

    Quote (Mercy @ Sep. 30 2006,03:09)

  • He was the firstborn unique son of God. (out of all the others)
  • He is the fullness and radiance of God's image and glory.
  • He had authority as Prince of Princes.
  • He was the word of the Lord (OT) and the word of God (NT)
  • He was the messenger of both covenants.
  • He revealed the invisible God in both the new and old testaments.
  • In the New testament he incarnates as our Messiah.
  • He is now the King of Kings with superior name exalted above his fellows.

  • That's pretty much how I see it too.

    1 Corinthians 10:4
    and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

    #32002
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,
    Some see in scripture that Jesus must be an angel, the angel of the Lord. Heb 1-2 makes plain he is not any form of angel in my view.

    #32004
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi t8,
    You quote
    “1 Corinthians 10:4
    and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. “

    So the physical event is described in Numbers 20
    ” 2And there was no water for the congregation: and they gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron.

    3And the people chode with Moses, and spake, saying, Would God that we had died when our brethren died before the LORD!

    4And why have ye brought up the congregation of the LORD into this wilderness, that we and our cattle should die there?

    5And wherefore have ye made us to come up out of Egypt, to bring us in unto this evil place? it is no place of seed, or of figs, or of vines, or of pomegranates; neither is there any water to drink.

    6And Moses and Aaron went from the presence of the assembly unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they fell upon their faces: and the glory of the LORD appeared unto them.

    7And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

    8Take the rod, and gather thou the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes; and it shall give forth his water, and thou shalt bring forth to them water out of the rock: so thou shalt give the congregation and their beasts drink.

    9And Moses took the rod from before the LORD, as he commanded him.

    10And Moses and Aaron gathered the congregation together before the rock, and he said unto them, Hear now, ye rebels; must we fetch you water out of this rock?

    11And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts also.

    12And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

    13This is the water of Meribah; because the children of Israel strove with the LORD, and he was sanctified in them.”

    God supplied their needs according to their requests.
    But 1Cor 10 refers to a spiritual event. There was no being called Christ shown with the jews in the desert. So the Spirit was with Moses and the Israelites and that Spirit is called here prophetically the Spirit of Christ. That Spirit had yet to be poured into Christ so it is a prophetic word. Christ was a being with God so had life in himself, but it was not himself but the Spirit of God spoken of here.

    #33333
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi FF,
    Another thread

    #43891
    NickHassan
    Participant

    topical

    #47593
    Phoenix
    Participant

    wow this page ends funny
    Just chucking this in to open it up a bit

    #73402
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 10 2006,05:14)
    Hi,
    Some see in scripture that Jesus must be an angel, the angel of the Lord. Heb 1-2 makes plain he is not any form of angel in my view.


    But he is a messenger.

    #73406
    IM4Truth
    Participant

    t8 According to other scriptures the Son of God was not an Angel. He was created before everybody else. He is the first born of all creation. The Father gave the Son the power to create all. By the power of the Father. Of course this would have to go under the preexisting tread. There are several Scriptures given there. So I have to agree with Nick here.
    Peace and Love Mrs. :D :D :D

    #73410
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    I agree that he is not an angel in the Cherub or Seraph sense, but he is a messenger, just as John B was.

    Malachi 3:1
    “See, I will send my messenger (mal'ak), who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger (mal'ak) of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the LORD Almighty.

    Matthew 11:10
    “This is the one about whom it is written,
    'BEHOLD, I SEND MY MESSENGER AHEAD OF YOU,
    WHO WILL PREPARE YOUR WAY BEFORE YOU.'

    The first messenger/angel/mal'ak is John the Baptist. Who is the second?
    Jesus? Melchizedek?

    I am not sure, but if it is Jesus, then he is that messenger/angel/mal'ak.

    mal'ak is the word used for angel in the Old Testament.

    E.g., Genesis 19:1
    The two angels (mal'ak) arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground.

    I also wonder about the following verse too. Is it talking of godly men messengers or Cherubs and Seraphs, or both?

    Hebrews 13:2
    Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it.

    I agree that most perhaps even all messengers who come from heaven are Cherubs/Seraphs/ but Jesus came from heaven too and he came as a messenger for God and as a man. So if he wasn't a Cherub, Seraph, but a man, then angel can be applied to men too.

    Perhaps almost all messengers we read about are Cherubs/Seraphs and in turn we think that all angels are that. But we can at least say that John the Baptist was a messenger/angel and yet he was a man.

    Jesus came as a man too, and he was sent from heaven.

    John 6:42
    They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, 'I came down from heaven'?”

    John 5:37
    And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me.

    John 17:3
    Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

    #73425
    IM4Truth
    Participant

    t8 But the difference is that Jesus is the Son of God and came forth from the Father, He was the first in all. He was first to be created
    Rev. 3:14 and first to be resurrected. So in all He may have preeminence.
    Colossians 1:15 ” Who is the image of the invisible God, THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATURE.”
    verse 16 “For by Him all things were  created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible…..
    verse 17 ” And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.”
    Now notice He is also the firstborn of the dead in
    verse 18 ” And He is the head of the church, who is the beginning, the first born of the dead, that in all He may have preeminence.

    For this I believe Jesus was not an Angel, they are a step below Him always have and always will be.

    Hebrew 1: 5 For whom of the Angels did He ever say: ” You are my Son, today I have begotten you and again: ” I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son.”

    Was He a messanger? Yes, He brought us the Good News. We are no longer under a death sentence.

    Peace and Love Mrs. :D :D :D

    #73428
    kenrch
    Participant

    The coming NEW gospel is that Jesus is not the Messiah but one who came down to “unite” Israel and make Israel ready for the real Messiah.

    Gal 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel–
    Gal 1:7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
    Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.

    1Th 5:1 Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you.
    1Th 5:2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.
    1Th 5:3 While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

    #73433
    IM4Truth
    Participant

    The coming NEW gospel is that Jesus is not the Messiah but one who came down to “unite” Israel and make Israel ready for the real Messiah.

    Ken Who is saying that? Did I miss something?

    Peace and Love Mrs. :( :(

    #73439
    Morningstar
    Participant

    Hebrew 1: 5 For whom of the Angels did He ever say: ” You are my Son, today I have begotten you and again: ” I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son.”

    Was Jesus the Firstborn and First begotten? Was Jesus begotten in the beginning as spirit. Then Begotten later as man?

    If Jesus was the only son of God begotten. Then of course God would never have said to any angel “I have begotten you.”

    If Jesus was begotten then Jesus “technically” wasn't created. Rather he was begotten. (like birth)

    So then Jesus did create all things. Because everything apart from the Father and Son were created.

    However, Jesus had companions (i.e. other sons of God) who are they?

    I suspect their is a divine order of the family in heaven. the Following is an educated guess from my studies.

    Father

    Morningstars (sons of God)

    Archangels (Princes)

    Angels (Principalities)

    Elements (Powers)

    We are to become part of the family by being lifted above the angels and made sons of God.

    #73449
    kenrch
    Participant

    Quote (IM4Truth @ Nov. 30 2007,06:18)
    The coming NEW gospel is that Jesus is not the Messiah but one who came down to “unite” Israel and make Israel ready for the real Messiah.

    Ken Who is saying that? Did I miss something?

    Peace and Love Mrs. :( :(


    John Hagee, that's what I believe he says in that video.

    But this is a wrong thread to talk about prophecy.

    #73513
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (IM4Truth @ Nov. 30 2007,05:05)
    t8 But the difference is that Jesus is the Son of God and came forth from the Father, He was the first in all. He was first to be created
    Rev. 3:14 and first to be resurrected. So in all He may have preeminence.
    Colossians 1:15 ” Who is the image of the invisible God, THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATURE.”
    verse 16 “For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible…..
    verse 17 ” And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.”
    Now notice He is also the firstborn of the dead in
    verse 18 ” And He is the head of the church, who is the beginning, the first born of the dead, that in all He may have preeminence.

    For this I believe Jesus was not an Angel, they are a step below Him always have and always will be.

    Hebrew 1: 5 For whom of the Angels did He ever say: ” You are my Son, today I have begotten you and again: ” I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son.”

    Was He a messanger? Yes, He brought us the Good News. We are no longer under a death sentence.

    Peace and Love Mrs. :D :D :D


    I agree IM4Truth, although I am not sure about the created bit.

    But my point is not to argue that Jesus is a mere angelic being like a Cherub, but to say that the word Angel in the Old Testament can equally mean messenger.

    If that is so, then Christ could be mentioned or disguised as an angel (messenger) in the Old Testament by us understanding that word to only apply to an angelic being and instead of seeing that it could be Christ.

    Judges 13:18
    And the angel of Jehovah said unto him, Wherefore askest thou after my name, seeing it is wonderful?

    Isaiah 9:6
    For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

    John 5:39
    You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me,

    Perhaps a pre-existent Christ is in scripture, it just that we see the word angel and that stops us from seeing by reason of the narrow understanding most have of that word?

    #98628
    NickHassan
    Participant

    topical

    #98851
    gollamudi
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ Dec. 01 2007,00:16)
    Perhaps a pre-existent Christ is in scripture, it just that we see the word angel and that stops us from seeing by reason of the narrow understanding most have of that word?


    Hi brother T8,
    Do you mean angel of the Lord was preexistent-Christ if so then why the angel of the Lord appearing to Mary, Joseph, shepahards, Peter, Paul etc. in New testament even after Jesus the Christ was born?

    #123398
    david
    Participant

    tropical

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