Where is Jesus in the Old Testament?

Many argue that Jesus is not mentioned in the Old Testament. Of course many religious Jews believe this to be the case because they do not believe he is the prophecied messiah. But there are also others who are not religious Jews who believe the Old Testament scriptures never mention or allude to Jesus being the messiah. Is this correct? Did the New Testament writers get a little too creative when they claim that Jesus fulfilled prophecies in the scriptures? Let’s take a look.

There is no argument that the New Testament contains gospels, letters, and teachings centred around the theme that Jesus is the Messiah. And we know that the Old Testament talks about the Messiah. But is there enough evidence to link this messiah to Jesus. Is there proof that he fulfilled the prophecies of the coming messiah as written in the Old Testament?

Yes indeed. There are Old Testament scriptures and prophecies that only Jesus of Nazareth has fulfilled. While his name is not mentioned for obvious reasons, Jesus Christ is certainly the only person in history to fulfil the prophecies and scriptures that we will look at.

Isaiah 51

This verse of the suffering messiah clearly speaks of Jesus. If you asked anybody who this verse is talking about, there is no doubt that the average person on the street would say it was Jesus. Even if you asked the average Jew this question, they too would say it is Jesus (Yeshua). Below is a video that proves this statement.

Next, we take a closer look at this chapter. While it seems to clearly point to Jesus Christ, some argue that it is talking about Israel. This is the go to interpretation for those who deny Jesus. Let’s imagine this is true and draw some conclusions from this interpretation to see if it makes any kind of sense. Listed below are the points this chapter makes that do not fit at all with Israel. The list comprises of 4 sentences with the word ‘Israel’ added in to see if it makes any sense. Following on from that, are the actual words of Isaiah 51.

  1. Israel has no beauty or majesty to attract us to him;
  2. Israel took up our pain,  bore our suffering, pierced for our transgressions, and by Israel’s wounds we are healed;
  3. Israel was assigned a grave with the wicked,  and with the rich in his death, though Israel had done no violence;
  4. Israel poured out his life as an offering for sin and will justify many,  and bear their iniquities.

1. Who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
    and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
    nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
    a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
    he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
    and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
    stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
    each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
    the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
    yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
    and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
    Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
    for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
    and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
    and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
    he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
    and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
    and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
    and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
    and made intercession for the transgressors.

If you are fair and unbiased, it seems that Isaiah 51 is talking about Jesus. Further, Israel doesn’t seem to fit in this verse. While somethings could fit, points like suffering and dying for the sins of humanity doesn’t fit with Israel in the slightest.


Psalm 22

Just before Jesus died on the cross for humanities sins, he quoted Psalm 22:1. It is important to know that it was a practice to quote a scripture and the hearers recite the rest of the scripture. It was a good way to remember the scriptures. Jesus quoted the first verse in that Psalm so that the hearers might understand what was happening before their eyes. See Matthew 27:46:

About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?”
(which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

Now look at Psalm 22:

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
    “let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
    since he delights in him.”
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
    and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs surround me,
    a pack of villains encircles me;
    they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
    and cast lots for my garment.

If you look at the above scripture and particularly the verses that are bolded, you will see that they are a very apt description for the death of Jesus. Let’s read what John wrote regarding the time just after the death of Jesus. It spells out some of the prophecies that were fulfilled.

John 19

31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.
33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.
36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”
37 and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”

The New Testament writers certainly believed that Jesus fulfilled Old Testament scripture. If you do not believe this to be the case, then ask yourself who in history has fulfilled these. If you are rational about it, you would at least have to admit that Jesus was the lead contender. In fact the only contender to date.


Daniel 3

In the Book of Daniel, it appears that the Son of God makes an appearance with three men who have been cast alive into a furnace. A fourth person appears who King Nebuchadnezzar says “the fourth looks like a son of the gods.” In other words, if the gods had a son, then this was him. Of course, there is but one Almighty God, and yes he does have a son. It is possible that this fourth person is an angel, but throughout the Old Testament an appearance of the Angel of the LORD is frequent. Many say that this is Jesus Christ before he came in the flesh, but others say it cannot be him as the Son of God was never an angel. This view does have a lot of merit though. Let’s address it by first reading Daniel 3:15-25.

15 Now when you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipe and all kinds of music, if you are ready to fall down and worship the image I made, very good. But if you do not worship it, you will be thrown immediately into a blazing furnace. Then what god will be able to rescue you from my hand?” 16 Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to him, “King Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. 17 If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to deliver us from it, and he will deliver us[c] from Your Majesty’s hand. 18 But even if he does not, we want you to know, Your Majesty, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.” 19 Then Nebuchadnezzar was furious with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, and his attitude toward them changed. He ordered the furnace heated seven times hotter than usual 20 and commanded some of the strongest soldiers in his army to tie up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego and throw them into the blazing furnace. 21 So these men, wearing their robes, trousers, turbans and other clothes, were bound and thrown into the blazing furnace. 22 The king’s command was so urgent and the furnace so hot that the flames of the fire killed the soldiers who took up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, 23 and these three men, firmly tied, fell into the blazing furnace. 24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar leaped to his feet in amazement and asked his advisers, “Weren’t there three men that we tied up and threw into the fire?” They replied, “Certainly, Your Majesty.” 25 He said, “Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods.”

The word Angel is found throughout the Old Testament. It usually refers to heavenly creature who delivers a message from God to humans. However, it can also refer to humans as they can be messengers too. Thus, angel or messenger can be applied to many kinds of being if they are a messenger of God. So this answers the concern that Jesus is not an angel. He actually is an angel or messenger, but not the usual messenger which are usually heavenly cherubs etc.

But there is a also a specific angel called: ‘The Angel of the LORD’ who appears numerous times in the Old Testament, but never in the New Testament. One reason for this could be that this messenger is none other than Jesus Christ before coming in the flesh and who would deny that Jesus is the main Messenger of God?

If this is him, then you would expect no appearances of this messenger during the time Jesus was alive on Earth and this is the case. It is also interesting to note that persons who saw this messenger as recorded in the Old Testament often said that they have seen God even though God himself is invisible. How do we make sense of this? Well in Colossians 1:15-16 we read:

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Colossians certainly fits with Jesus being the Angel of the LORD in the sense that there is no double up of them appearing at the same time and the fact that Jesus Christ is the exact image of the invisible God in bodily form whiches matches the description of seeing God. Let’s read more about the Angel of the LORD to see if this could be the identity of Jesus before he was born into this world.

To be continued.

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  • #29526
    david
    Participant

    Quote
    Only a brave man would teach someting as truth about spiritual matters without basing that teaching on what is clearly written and taught in the bible.

    Do you agree?

    I do agree. And you believe that “God is not a trinity” is clearly taught in the Bible. Others disagree. You believe that God burns people for all time because of the sins of a few years. Others disagree. Yet, nowhere does the Bible say: “God burns people alive forever in unending pain.” Yet, you have come to that conclusion.
    Yes, there's fewer scriptures that deal with this subject. But those scriptures point me to what I see as an obvious conclusion.

    #29558
    NickHassan
    Participant

    wrong thread david.

    #29563
    david
    Participant

    I was just answering your statement by using a COMPARISON, hoping it would help you to understand. My mistake. I apologize.

    #29567
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (david @ Sep. 29 2006,02:06)

    Quote
    Only a brave man would teach someting as truth about spiritual matters without basing that teaching on what is clearly written and taught in the bible.

    Do you agree?

    I do agree.  And you believe that “God is not a trinity” is clearly taught in the Bible.  Others disagree.  You believe that God burns people for all time because of the sins of a few years.  Others disagree.  Yet, nowhere does the Bible say: “God burns people alive forever in unending pain.”  Yet, you have come to that conclusion.
    Yes, there's fewer scriptures that deal with this subject.  But those scriptures point me to what I see as an obvious conclusion.


    Hi david,
    So you agree that we should not teach what is not taught in the bible?
    But where does that leave the JW doctrines such as Jesus is an angel, called Michael. That is not taught is it??

    #29569
    david
    Participant

    Nick, please read my above post again. You ask, 'Where does the Bible say Jesus is an angel?'
    I asked you Nick, where the Bible says that God burns people alive forever for the sins of a few years on earth. Where does it say that in the Bible?

    YET THAT IS WHAT YOU BELIEVE?

    Why?

    #29573
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi david,
    Do you really know what I believe?
    Show me from scripture in the correct thread these things that I should believe and I will be corrected.
    Then we can look again at why you say from outside of scripture that Jesus is an angel.

    #29576
    david
    Participant

    Again,

    Quote
    I was just answering your statement by using a COMPARISON, hoping it would help you to understand. My mistake. I apologize.

    Nick, what I am saying absolutely belongs here. You state that there is no scripture that says: “Jesus is an angel.”
    Yet, you believe things that don't have specific scriptures plainly stating what you believe. If there were such plain scriptures stating exactly what you believe, then there would be no debate, then T8 would agree with you. He doesn't. Such scriptures do not exist. So what you're saying to me seems… hypocritical to some degree.

    #29579
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi david,
    If I anm a hypocrite then I will improve if you address the issue in the correct thread. I will try to teach only what is written.

    So then what of Michael and Jesus-will you do the same?.

    #29598
    Mercy
    Participant

    Nick,

    I feel that I would be not proclaiming the truth if I did not state my position from what I “truly” see the scriptures saying.

    Maybe, I am wrong but what am I do to? Not believe the evidence staring me in the face. Not follow where I think I am being guided?

    Can you honestly say that the information I posted a couple pages back does not have alot of evidence to support my position?

    #29599
    Mercy
    Participant

    Quote (Adam Pastor @ Sep. 29 2006,01:27)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 28 2006,21:40)
    Hi mercy,
    Did any of them say that Jesus is the angel of the Lord?
    That is the relevant issue here.


    I Totally Agree!

    Plus to those who believe the Angel of the Lord is Jesus
    … If Jesus is 'the Angel of the Lord' then who is the Angel of the Lord???

    (Mat 1:20-21)  But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

    (Mat 1:24-25)  Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: 25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

    (Mat 2:13)  And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

    (Mat 2:19-20)  But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, 20 Saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and go into the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child's life.

    (Mat 28:2-7)  And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. … 5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. 6 He is not here: for he is risen … 7 And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.

    (Luke 2:9-11)  And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid. 10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. 11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

    Do you see my point?


    The New testament verses are different. Be honest.

    In Matthew it states it is Gabriel. It is “an” angel of the Lord.

    Clearly the angel of the Lord as described in the old testament has a very close personal relationship to God. He acts and speaks on behalf of him with authority. Gods name was in him.

    Read the history on this. Do a google search on Metatron.

    #29602
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi mercy,
    To each their own.
    I prefer simplicity.
    2Cor 11
    “1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.

    2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

    3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.”

    #29603
    Mercy
    Participant

    John 5:45
    45″But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”

    Luke 24:27
    27And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

    What all did moses say about Jesus?

    #29604
    Mercy
    Participant

    Me too

    But that verse is out of context, that was concerning salvation.

    Paul often talks of the mysteries of Christ.

    I think the simpliest and most logical answer to the nature of Christ is:

    He was the firstborn unique son of God. (out of all the others)
    He is the fullness and radiance of God's image and glory.
    He had authority as Prince of Princes.
    He was the word of the Lord (OT) and the word of God (NT)
    He was the messenger of both covenants.
    He revealed the invisible God in both the new and old testaments.
    In the New testament he incarnates as our Messiah.
    He is now the King of Kings with superior name exalted above his fellows.

    that answers all the questions with ease and simplicity and has alot of evidence to support it. In fact so much that I find myself having to apply more faith to consider the possiblity that it isn't so.

    #29605
    Mercy
    Participant

    No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
    (John 1:18 KJV)

    At any time?
    hath declared him?
    When?
    At any of those times people thought they saw him or his angel?

    #29611
    Adam Pastor
    Participant

    Mercy, you do the research on Metatron.
    And show me where in Jewish writings, is Metatron ever identified with the Messiah? Where? Show me!

    And to be honest, it is only in Luke that Gabriel is identified, and he never speaks to Joseph!
    I did my homework first! :;):

    To be honest, the OT speaks of 'the angel of the Lord' and the NT speaks of 'the angel of the Lord'. Why?
    Because there is no difference. GOD used His angel(s) to do His bidding in the OT. And in the NT there is no difference. GOD continues to use His angel(s) to speak to Joseph, the shepherds, etc; about His Son, the birth of His Son, the safety of His Son, etc. …
    Therefore, it ought to be obvious that His Son is NOT the Angel of the Lord. And that's being honest!
    The angel of the Lord in the NT is still speaking on behalf of GOD … nothing has changed!

    Concerning (John 5:45-47)  Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

    Well, it appears you may have missed the evidence staring you in the face.
    Not only is the evidence clearly there in the OT but at least 2 of Christ's disciples actually expounded the very portion of Moses' writings that Jesus was talking about!!! Let's see …Where did Moses write of Christ?
    (Deu 18:15-19)  YAHWEH thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; 16 According to all that thou desiredst of YAHWEH thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of YAHWEH my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. 17 And YAHWEH said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

    Note: GOD will raise up a Prophet from the family of the Israelites … He did NOT say He would raise up an angelic being!
    Jesus the Messiah identified himself as 'a prophet' and the people who believed on him identified him as
    'That Prophet' according to the writings of Moses!
    And more specifically, 2 of Christ's disciples actually expounded on this point, so none of us need to be in any ignorance on that point!

    PETER: (Acts 3:20-26)  And he [GOD] shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. 24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. 25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son [servant] Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

    STEPHEN: (Acts 7:37)  This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
    (Acts 7:52)  Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which showed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

    So Moses' writing concerning Christ is Deut. 18:15-19

    John 1:18 is speaking 'after the fact' of Christ's ministry NOT before!
    During Christ's ministry, Jesus declared GOD the Father [e.g. John 14.9-11, 17.6,26, etc].
    And like you rightly said, no one had seen GOD at anytime … the OT saints saw angels.
    And the people of those times were fully aware of this fact.

    Also, ponder the fact that if you have to trust so-called church fathers for proof of your assertion, this cannot be a sound position. Trust what the Scriptures say! And as Nick pointed out to you, all the verses that you indeed quoted, NONE of them, say that the Angel of the Lord was the Messiah! No not one!

    The so-called church fathers were Hellenistic-minded believers who 'lost the art' of reading the Scriptures with a Hebraic mindset.
    Justin Martyr was the first to call Jesus, 'the Second God'; and also remember he was 'a philosopher turned “Christian” '!! That is, his mind was steeped in Greek Platonism and philosophy.
    Remember Col 2.8!
    Justin Martyr as well as the church fathers of his era, tried to marry their Greek philosophy with the Hebrew Scriptures with disatrous results. It was these men who introduced the Platonic notion of  'the immortality of the soul' and with this notion introduced the concept that Jesus the Messiah pre-existed as a personal being known as '[God] the Logos' who was alongside GOD before the foundation of the world.
    Like I said, this notion of 'literal pre-existence' of the Messiah was based on their Hellenistic, Platonic philosophy.
    Justin Martyr one of the earliest proponent of this notion, when trying to convince Trypho the Jew, actually said …

    CHAPTER XLVIII [48] — BEFORE THE DIVINITY OF CHRIST IS PROVED, HE [TRYPHO] DEMANDS THAT IT BE SETTLED THAT HE IS CHRIST.

    Quote
    And Trypho said, “We have heard what you think of these matters. Resume the discourse where you left off, and bring it to an end. For some of it appears to me to be paradoxical, and wholly incapable of proof. For when you say that this Christ existed as God before the ages, then that He submitted to be born and become man, yet that He is not man of man, this [assertion] appears to me to be not merely paradoxical, but also foolish.
    And I replied to this, “I know that the statement does appear to be paradoxical, especially to those of your race, who are ever unwilling to understand or to perform the [requirements] of God, but [ready to perform] those of your teachers, as God Himself declares. Now assuredly, Trypho,” I continued,” [the proof] that this man is the Christ of God does not fail, though I be unable to prove that He existed formerly as Son of the Maker of all things, being God, and was born a man by the Virgin. But since I have certainly proved that this man is the Christ of God, whoever He be, even if I do not prove that He pre-existed, and submitted to be born a man of like passions with us, having a body, according to the Father's will; in this last matter alone is it just to say that I have erred, and not to deny that He is the Christ, though it should appear that He was born man of men, and [nothing more] is proved [than this], that He has become Christ by election. For there are some, my friends,” I said, “of our race, who admit that He is Christ, while holding Him to be man of men; with whom I do not agree, nor would I, even though most of those who have [now] the same opinions as myself should say so; since we were enjoined by Christ Himself to put no faith in human doctrines, but in those proclaimed by the blessed prophets and taught by Himself.”

    (Taken from: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text….ho.html )

    So, Justin Martyr could not prove that Jesus pre-existed his birth! Like Justin Martyr, I suggest Mercy, that you have erred in this matter. Justin also points out (as history proves) that it was the majority position among Christians of that time, that Jesus the Christ of GOD, was born man of men! Thus he did not pre-exist as someone or something else.
    Sadly, this philosophical, Platonic notion of 'a literal pre-existence of a Logos-being' gained ground among the Hellenistic Christians, and we have the situation that we have today!!  :(

    So, like I said, Mercy; don't depend upon 'the church fathers' for proof … go back to the Scriptures.
    Jesus was speaking of Deut 18:15-19; both disciples & believers alike perceived that Jesus of Nazareth was
    'That Prophet' [e.g. John 4.19,29,42-44; 6.14, 7.40, Acts 3.22ff, 7.37, etc]
    Neither Jesus nor any of his apostles identified the Messiah as the Angel of the Lord.
    And as I said before, if memory serves me well, neither in any of the Jewish apocryphal writings (which are nearer to the source & era then the writings of the church fathers) ever identify the Messiah as the Angel of the Lord or Metatron. (Please correct me if I am mistaken by quoting otherwise)
    Be Berean. Search these facts out.
    God strengthen you in your search. Amen.

    #29624
    Mercy
    Participant

    I was aware of the of that prophecy by Moses. I was hinting at the idea of is that all Moses said. That was all Moses said concerning Jesus?

    I do not really on what the church fathers taught. I searched the scriptures first and saw the connection and then later realized that it was a view shared by the church Fathers. It is only a secondary confirmation and not a primary source. Scripture is my only primary source.

    No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
    (John 1:18 KJV)

    Jesus is saying that no man has ever seen God.
    He then states that he was in the bosom of the Father.
    He then clarifies that it was and is him that reveals the Father.

    Is this not what it is saying?

    I tend to suspect that you don't give any credance to the book of Enoch. In that book Jesus is clearly pre-existing. I believe the book of Enoch is legit. Have you ever read it?

    #29635
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi mercy,
    You say

    “o man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
    (John 1:18 KJV)

    Jesus is saying that no man has ever seen God.
    He then states that he was in the bosom of the Father.
    He then clarifies that it was and is him that reveals the Father”

    The vessel of Jesus revealed the true nature of God within him to mankind.

    #29642
    Mercy
    Participant

    isnt “hath' past tense?

    how did Jesus do this prior to his incarnation in the vessel of a man?

    #29645
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi mercy,
    Look at Jn 1.14
    ” 14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”
    It is past tense, the history of Jesus's visit to earth.

    #29656
    Mercy
    Participant

    “at any time”

    that tells me that Jesus performed this role throughout history.

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