Where is Jesus in the Old Testament?

Many argue that Jesus is not mentioned in the Old Testament. Of course many religious Jews believe this to be the case because they do not believe he is the prophecied messiah. But there are also others who are not religious Jews who believe the Old Testament scriptures never mention or allude to Jesus being the messiah. Is this correct? Did the New Testament writers get a little too creative when they claim that Jesus fulfilled prophecies in the scriptures? Let’s take a look.

There is no argument that the New Testament contains gospels, letters, and teachings centred around the theme that Jesus is the Messiah. And we know that the Old Testament talks about the Messiah. But is there enough evidence to link this messiah to Jesus. Is there proof that he fulfilled the prophecies of the coming messiah as written in the Old Testament?

Yes indeed. There are Old Testament scriptures and prophecies that only Jesus of Nazareth has fulfilled. While his name is not mentioned for obvious reasons, Jesus Christ is certainly the only person in history to fulfil the prophecies and scriptures that we will look at.

Isaiah 51

This verse of the suffering messiah clearly speaks of Jesus. If you asked anybody who this verse is talking about, there is no doubt that the average person on the street would say it was Jesus. Even if you asked the average Jew this question, they too would say it is Jesus (Yeshua). Below is a video that proves this statement.

Next, we take a closer look at this chapter. While it seems to clearly point to Jesus Christ, some argue that it is talking about Israel. This is the go to interpretation for those who deny Jesus. Let’s imagine this is true and draw some conclusions from this interpretation to see if it makes any kind of sense. Listed below are the points this chapter makes that do not fit at all with Israel. The list comprises of 4 sentences with the word ‘Israel’ added in to see if it makes any sense. Following on from that, are the actual words of Isaiah 51.

  1. Israel has no beauty or majesty to attract us to him;
  2. Israel took up our pain,  bore our suffering, pierced for our transgressions, and by Israel’s wounds we are healed;
  3. Israel was assigned a grave with the wicked,  and with the rich in his death, though Israel had done no violence;
  4. Israel poured out his life as an offering for sin and will justify many,  and bear their iniquities.

1. Who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
    and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
    nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
    a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
    he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
    and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
    stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
    each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
    the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
    yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
    and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
    Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
    for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
    and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
    and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
    he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
    and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
    and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
    and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
    and made intercession for the transgressors.

If you are fair and unbiased, it seems that Isaiah 51 is talking about Jesus. Further, Israel doesn’t seem to fit in this verse. While somethings could fit, points like suffering and dying for the sins of humanity doesn’t fit with Israel in the slightest.


Psalm 22

Just before Jesus died on the cross for humanities sins, he quoted Psalm 22:1. It is important to know that it was a practice to quote a scripture and the hearers recite the rest of the scripture. It was a good way to remember the scriptures. Jesus quoted the first verse in that Psalm so that the hearers might understand what was happening before their eyes. See Matthew 27:46:

About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?”
(which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

Now look at Psalm 22:

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
    “let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
    since he delights in him.”
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
    and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs surround me,
    a pack of villains encircles me;
    they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
    and cast lots for my garment.

If you look at the above scripture and particularly the verses that are bolded, you will see that they are a very apt description for the death of Jesus. Let’s read what John wrote regarding the time just after the death of Jesus. It spells out some of the prophecies that were fulfilled.

John 19

31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.
33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.
36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”
37 and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”

The New Testament writers certainly believed that Jesus fulfilled Old Testament scripture. If you do not believe this to be the case, then ask yourself who in history has fulfilled these. If you are rational about it, you would at least have to admit that Jesus was the lead contender. In fact the only contender to date.


Daniel 3

In the Book of Daniel, it appears that the Son of God makes an appearance with three men who have been cast alive into a furnace. A fourth person appears who King Nebuchadnezzar says “the fourth looks like a son of the gods.” In other words, if the gods had a son, then this was him. Of course, there is but one Almighty God, and yes he does have a son. It is possible that this fourth person is an angel, but throughout the Old Testament an appearance of the Angel of the LORD is frequent. Many say that this is Jesus Christ before he came in the flesh, but others say it cannot be him as the Son of God was never an angel. This view does have a lot of merit though. Let’s address it by first reading Daniel 3:15-25.

15 Now when you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipe and all kinds of music, if you are ready to fall down and worship the image I made, very good. But if you do not worship it, you will be thrown immediately into a blazing furnace. Then what god will be able to rescue you from my hand?” 16 Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to him, “King Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. 17 If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to deliver us from it, and he will deliver us[c] from Your Majesty’s hand. 18 But even if he does not, we want you to know, Your Majesty, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.” 19 Then Nebuchadnezzar was furious with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, and his attitude toward them changed. He ordered the furnace heated seven times hotter than usual 20 and commanded some of the strongest soldiers in his army to tie up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego and throw them into the blazing furnace. 21 So these men, wearing their robes, trousers, turbans and other clothes, were bound and thrown into the blazing furnace. 22 The king’s command was so urgent and the furnace so hot that the flames of the fire killed the soldiers who took up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, 23 and these three men, firmly tied, fell into the blazing furnace. 24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar leaped to his feet in amazement and asked his advisers, “Weren’t there three men that we tied up and threw into the fire?” They replied, “Certainly, Your Majesty.” 25 He said, “Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods.”

The word Angel is found throughout the Old Testament. It usually refers to heavenly creature who delivers a message from God to humans. However, it can also refer to humans as they can be messengers too. Thus, angel or messenger can be applied to many kinds of being if they are a messenger of God. So this answers the concern that Jesus is not an angel. He actually is an angel or messenger, but not the usual messenger which are usually heavenly cherubs etc.

But there is a also a specific angel called: ‘The Angel of the LORD’ who appears numerous times in the Old Testament, but never in the New Testament. One reason for this could be that this messenger is none other than Jesus Christ before coming in the flesh and who would deny that Jesus is the main Messenger of God?

If this is him, then you would expect no appearances of this messenger during the time Jesus was alive on Earth and this is the case. It is also interesting to note that persons who saw this messenger as recorded in the Old Testament often said that they have seen God even though God himself is invisible. How do we make sense of this? Well in Colossians 1:15-16 we read:

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Colossians certainly fits with Jesus being the Angel of the LORD in the sense that there is no double up of them appearing at the same time and the fact that Jesus Christ is the exact image of the invisible God in bodily form whiches matches the description of seeing God. Let’s read more about the Angel of the LORD to see if this could be the identity of Jesus before he was born into this world.

To be continued.

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  • #29425
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Mercy,
    He is above the angels.
    He was made for a time below the angels but now again is far above them, who are his servants.

    #29430
    Is 1:18
    Participant

    Quote (Mercy @ Sep. 28 2006,03:33)
    I see overwhelming evidence that Jesus existed prior to his incarnation.

    I see a some strong evidence that he was the angel of the Lord.


    Hi Mercy, I agree with you….on both counts…

    Blessings
    :)

    #29432
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Is 1.18,
    If Jesus was the Angel of the Lord,
    and is part of a trinity God you say you espouse,
    how can you reconcile that an angel is part of God?

    #29436
    Is 1:18
    Participant

    Quote
    If Jesus was the Angel of the Lord, and is part of a trinity God you say you espouse, how can you reconcile that an angel is part of God?

    Genesis 16:7-13The angel of the LORD found Hagar near a spring in the desert; it was the spring that is beside the road to Shur. And he said, “Hagar, servant of Sarai, where have you come from, and where are you going?” I’m running away from my mistress Sarai,” she answered. Then the angel of the LORD told her, “Go back to your mistress and submit to her.” The angel added, I will so increase your descendants that they will be too numerous to count.” The angel of the LORD also said to her: You are now with child and you will have a son. You shall name him Ishmael, for the LORD has heard of your misery. He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers.” She gave this name to the LORD who spoke to her: “You are the God who sees me,” for she said, “I have now seen the One who sees me.”Notice:

    • The angel, speaking in the first person, says “I will so increase your descendants that they will be too numerous to count.””
    • Hagar, in reference to the visitation of the angel of the Lord, utters:”You are the God who sees me,” for she said, “I have now seen the One who sees me.”Genesis 22:15-1815 The angel of the LORD called to Abraham from heaven a second time 16 and said, “I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, 18 and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me.”Notice:
    • The ‘angel of the Lord’ and ‘The Lord’ (YHWH) are used interchangeably in this passage.
    • The ‘angel of the Lord’ assumes the divine prerogative of “promising” Israel great blessing and prosperity.
    • The angel speaks ‘from heaven’–there is no need for an earthly messenger or  ‘representative’ in this case.Exodus 3:1-141 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the desert and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. 3 So Moses thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight—why the bush does not burn up.” 4 When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!”       And Moses said, “Here I am.” 5 “Do not come any closer,” God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.” 6 Then he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God. 7 The LORD said, “I have indeed seen the misery of my people in Egypt. I have heard them crying out because of their slave drivers, and I am concerned about their suffering. 8 So I have come down to rescue them from the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up out of that land into a good and spacious land, a land flowing with milk and honey—the home of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. 9 And now the cry of the Israelites has reached me, and I have seen the way the Egyptians are oppressing them. 10 So now, go. I am sending you to Pharaoh to bring my people the Israelites out of Egypt.” 11 But Moses said to God, “Who am I, that I should go to Pharaoh and bring the Israelites out of Egypt?” 12 And God said, “I will be with you. And this will be the sign to you that it is I who have sent you: When you have brought the people out of Egypt, you will worship God on this mountain.” 13 Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?” 14 God said to Moses, “I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’Notice:
    • The ‘angel of the Lord’ and ‘The Lord’ are used interchangeably in this passage.
    • The Angel of God calls HIMSELF the “God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob”
    • The writer calls the Angel “God” Exodus 13:21-22 (with 14:19-20)By day the LORD went ahead of them in a pillar of cloud to guide them on their way and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so that they could travel by day or night. Neither the pillar of cloud by day nor the pillar of fire by night left its place in front of the people. Then the angel of God, who had been traveling in front of Israel’s army, withdrew and went behind them. The pillar of cloud also moved from in front and stood behind them, coming between the armies of Egypt and Israel. Throughout the night the cloud brought darkness to the one side and light to the other side; so neither went near the other all night long.Notice: 
    • The ‘angel of the Lord’ and ‘The Lord’ are used interchangeably in this passage.
    • The same events are ascribed to both YHWH and the Angel of God Judges 6:11-2311 The angel of the LORD came and sat down under the oak in Ophrah that belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, where his son Gideon was threshing wheat in a winepress to keep it from the Midianites. 12 When the angel of the LORD appeared to Gideon, he said, “The LORD is with you, mighty warrior.” 13 “But sir,” Gideon replied, “if the LORD is with us, why has all this happened to us? Where are all his wonders that our fathers told us about when they said, ‘Did not the LORD bring us up out of Egypt?’ But now the LORD has abandoned us and put us into the hand of Midian.” 14 The LORD turned to him and said, “Go in the strength you have and save Israel out of Midian’s hand. Am I not sending you?” 15 “But Lord , ” Gideon asked, “how can I save Israel? My clan is the weakest in Manasseh, and I am the least in my family.” 16 The LORD answered, “I will be with you, and you will strike down all the Midianites together.” 17 Gideon replied, “If now I have found favor in your eyes, give me a sign that it is really you talking to me. 18 Please do not go away until I come back and bring my offering and set it before you.”       And the LORD said, “I will wait until you return.” 19 Gideon went in, prepared a young goat, and from an ephah of flour he made bread without yeast. Putting the meat in a basket and its broth in a pot, he brought them out and offered them to him under the oak.  0 The angel of God said to him, “Take the meat and the unleavened bread, place them on this rock, and pour out the broth.” And Gideon did so. 21 With the tip of the staff that was in his hand, the angel of the LORD touched the meat and the unleavened bread. Fire flared from the rock, consuming the meat and the bread. And the angel of the LORD disappeared. 22 When Gideon realized that it was the angel of the LORD, he exclaimed, “Ah, Sovereign LORD! I have
      seen the angel of the LORD face to face!”
      23 But the LORD said to him, “Peace! Do not be afraid. You are not going to die.”
      Notice:
    • The ‘angel of the Lord’ and ‘The Lord’ (YHWH) are again used interchangeably in this passage.
    • Gideon declares “Ah, Sovereign LORD! I have seen the angel of the LORD face to face!””

     

    #29437
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Is 1.18,
    Or alternatively and more simply the angel is the angel of the Lord who represents God.
    Thus there is no confusion between God and his creation.

    #29439
    Mercy
    Participant

    Or it is Jesus, who is the very image of the invisible God yet is not God himself. The firstborn with a divine inheritence who was called the word of God in both the old and new testament. THE Son of God whom no other angel is like nor holds a simular authority.

    Who speaks for the Father but the Word of God?

    Jesus has been confused for God since the beginning. Jesus tells us no man has ever seen God. Jesus says he reveals God. Yet we are told they thought they saw God even when the passage states it was the angel of the Lord.

    His name is in him.

    #29441
    Mercy
    Participant

    The above article has a trinitarian slant. But I do agree with the rest of his conclusions.

    #29442
    Mercy
    Participant

    The Angel of the Lord
    “A Study of Theophanies in the Scriptures”
    Callum Beck

    I

    The Angel of the Lord (lit. Jehovah) oftentimes in the OT is equated with and yet distinct from Jehovah. The passage which may best describe their relation is Isaiah 63:8-9, wherein God is called Israel's Savior, but it is the Angel of His presence that saves Israel. This Angel of God was generally regarded by the early church Fathers as the Logos or Word of God (John 1:1), the one who declared God and whose glory we have beheld (John 1:14,18; cf John 12:45; 14:9; II Corinthians 4:4-6; Colossians 1:15; 2:9; Hebrews 1:3). See E. W. Hengstenberg, Christology of the Old Testament, pp. 80-91, 1279-1312 for a thorough discussion of this issue. Below is a list of verses where this Angel/Logos appears:

    Genesis 16:7-14; 21:17-19; 22:1-2,11-18; 31:11-13 with 28:13 & 35:1,3,7,15; 48:15-16
    Exodus 3:1-6; 13:21-22 w/ 14:19 & Numbers 20:16; 23:20-23. Cf Acts 7:30-38
    Numbers 22:21-35. Cf 22:9,20; 23:3-5,15-16; 24:2,4,16
    Judges 2:1-5; 6:11-24; 13:2-23
    Isaiah 63:8-9
    Hosea 12:3-5. Cf Genesis 32:24-30
    Zechariah 1:7-12: 2:3-5,8-11; 3:1-10; 12:8
    Malachi 3:1 (messenger of the Covenant = angel of the covenant).

    This Angel/Logos is primarily called the Angel of Jehovah (Malak Yahweh), but is also referred to as the Angel of God (Elohim), the Angel, my Angel and an Angel. Sometimes, however, these expressions are used of other figures (Exodus 32:34-33:4; Ecclesiastes 5:6; Malachi 2:7; 3:1 ‘my messenger’), and sometimes it is uncertain whether the Logos or a normal angel is intended (Genesis 24:7,40; Judges 5:23; II Samuel 24:16-17; I Kings 19:5-7; II Kings 1:3,15; 19:35; I Chronicles 21:11-30; II Chronicles 32:21; Psalm 34:7; 35:5-6; Isaiah 37:36; Daniel 6:22).

    II

    The logos also appeared in the Old Testament in various human forms (Genesis 18:1-19:22; 21:1 with 18:10; 32:24-30; Joshua 5:13-6:2; Ezekiel 1:25-2:4; 8:1-4; Daniel 3:25,28; 8:15-16; 10:5-9,16-11:1; 12:6-9; Zechariah 11:4-17; 13:7). The man who wrestled with Jacob (Genesis 32:24-30) is specifically called “the Angel … even Jehovah” in Hosea 12:3-5, the commander of the Lord's army (Joshua 5:14) is almost certainly the angel of Exodus 23:20-23 & Numbers 22:21-35, and probably all of the other figures are likewise to be equated with the Angel of the Lord.

    III

    There are also other theophanies, or manifestations of God, in the Old Testament. These are not associated with any particular angelic or human forms. See, for example:

    Genesis 12:7; 17:1-22; 26:2,24; 28:13-17; 35:1,9
    Exodus 19:3,8-25; 20:18-22; 24:1-2,9-18; 29:42-46; 31:18; 32:30-34:11; 34:29-35; 40:34-35
    Numbers 1:1; 9:15-23; 11:16-17,24-25; 12:4-10; 14:10-14; 16:42; 20:6-7
    Deuteronomy 1:30-33; 4:10-15,32-37; 5:4-5,22-27; 33:2; 34:10
    Job 38:1; 42:5
    Isaiah 6:1 with Jn 12:39-41
    Ezekiel 1:1; 3:23-24; 9:3-4; 10:1-4,18-20; 11:22-23; 43:1-7; 44:4; 48:35
    Amos 9:1

    Again it would seem that in many, if not all, of these cases that God appeared in the form of His Angel. This is certainly the case in the theophany to Jacob at Bethel, for in Genesis 31:11-13 the Angel of God says that He is the God of Bethel to whom Jacob had made a vow in Genesis 28:18-22. It would also seem that the presence (lit. ‘face’) of Jehovah in Exodus 33:14-15 is another title for the Angel of Exodus 23:20-23, as both perform the same work of leading Israel into the promised land (cf Deuteronomy 4:37). Further evidence for this equation comes from the expression “Angel of His presence” (lit. ‘face’) in Isaiah 63:9. It seems to have been formed by conjoining the two names, and suggests that the inspired prophet equated “the face of Jehovah” with “the Angel in whom is the name of the Lord” (Exodus 23:21).

    IV

    The scripture declares that no man has seen or can see God (Exodus 33:20; John 1:18; 5:37; I Timothy 6:16; I John 4:12,20), save, of course, for Jesus (John 6:46). Yet we have many appearances of God in the Old Testament as noted above, and the plain declaration of Jesus that he who has seen him has seen the Father (John 1:18; 12:45; 14:9). John 12:38-41 further expressly identifies God in Isaiah 6:1 with Jesus. The only logical conclusion to be drawn from all of this is that Jesus, in his pre-incarnate form as the Word = Logos, also performed the work of revealing God to man in Old Testament times. The Logos manifested himself sometime in the form of the Angel, sometime as a human figure, sometime in nature (Exodus 13:21; 20:18-22), and sometimes in an unidentified form (e.g., Genesis 17:1,22; 35:9). Because the Logos is both with God and is God (John 1:1), it can be true both that men in the Old Testament saw God and that no man has seen the Father at any time. The only other things worthy of note are that Moses alone of all the prophets seems to have seen the Father Himself, though not literally face to face (Exodus 33:18-23; 34:5-7,29; Numbers 12:6-8; Deuteronomy 34:10); and in the age to come we will see God even as He is (Job 19:25-27; Psalm 11:7; 17:15; Matthew 5:8; I John 3:2; Revelation 22:4).

    Special Study in Daniel

    The Angel/Word is manifested as:

    One like a son of the gods = His angel – 3:25,28; 6:22.
    The Prince (sar) of the Host – 8:11,25; cf Joshua 5:14.
    A holy one speaking – 8:13-14; cf 12:6-7.
    The appearance of a man = a man clothed in linen – 8:15-16; 10:5-9,16-19; 12:6-7; cf Ezekiel 9-10.
    Daniel's greater Lord – 10:17 (see C. 4 below).
    The Messiah –
    a) One like a son of man – 7:13-14.
    b) Prince (nagid) / Anointed – 9:24-25.

    Michael is manifested as:

    Part of the faithful Host of Heaven – 8:10-12.
    One of the chief Princes (sar) – 10:13.
    Israel's Prince (sar) – 10:21; 12:1; cf Jude 9 & Rev 12:7.

    Gabriel is manifested as:

    Part of the faithful Host of Heaven – 8:10-12.
    A holy one who questioned the Angel – 8:13-14; cf 12:6-7.
    The Angel of Interpretation – 7:16; 8:16-19; 9:21-22; 10:10-15,20-11:1; 12:8-9.
    He delivered the revelations in 7:17-27; 8:19-26; 9:22-27; 11:2-12:4; 12:9-13.
    Daniel's lesser Lord – 10:16b-17,19b; 12:8.
    One of the angels by the river – 12:5-6.

    Note on spiritual warfare:
    Israel's Prince, Michael, had been in battle with the Prince of Persia, in the first year of Darius the Mede (11:1). Gabriel was sent to “confirm and strengthen” Michael (11:1), in response to Daniel's prayer (see chapter 9, especially v. 23). His support, judging from 9:1 and 9:20-23, seemed primarily to be helping Daniel gain understanding of the vision, which in this case involved the delivery of a Messianic prophecy to mankind.

    Gabriel then seems to have been left alone battling the Kings of Persia (10:13,21). Daniel had prayed for help in understanding another vision (10:1-3,12), but the Prince of Persia was preventing Gabriel from getting through to Daniel (10:12-13). So this time Michael came to the aid of Gabriel (10:13), freeing him up so that he could again give Daniel understanding of what will happen to his people in the latter days (10:14).

    Two points of interest. First, what happens on earth (prayer) moves heavenly forces in the battle against principalities and powers, and they in turn minister to men (in the book of Daniel primarily through giving understanding of future events connected to the people of God and their Messiah). Second, Gabriel who is one of God's main warriors against the demonic forces, is also given the knowledge of their future power and ultimate destruction. This must have been great consolation to him as he prepared for future battle against God's enemies.

    Special Study in Ezekiel

    The Angel/Word

    Visions of God – 1:1; cf 8:3; 11:24; 40:2.
    Glory of Jehovah – 3:23; 8:4; 9:3; 10:4, 18-20; 11:22-23; 43:1-7; 44:4.
    A likeness as the appearance of a man – 1:25-2:4; 8:1-4; 10:20.
    The Messiah (?) Prince (nasi) – 44:2-3, etc. (17 times in
    Ezekiel 44-48); cf 34:24 & 37:25.
    Note that, the Glory of Jehovah and the being who looked like a man, are in fact the same figure. Compare 10:20 with 1:26-28.

    Two Important Figures

    The Man in White Linen – 9:2-4,6,11; 10:2-3,6-7.
    The man whose appearance was like bronze, who guided Ezekiel on the tour of the Temple – 40:3-4; 42:6; 44:1,4; 46:19-47:12.

    Angels

    The four Living Creatures = Cherubim – 1:5-25; 10:1-22.
    The six destroying Angels – 9:1-7.

    The Angel in the New Testament

    There is no mention of the Angel of the Lord in the Gospels or the Epistles, and only one historical reference in the Acts (7:38). One must ask why such a prominent Old Testament figure suddenly disappeared in the New. The answer, of course, is that he did not. He just took on a different form. For in the New Covenant the Angel of the Lord has been incarnated as Jesus the Messiah. And all the attributes and work ascribed to the Angel are now found in Christ. Through both God performs his tasks of redemption, judgement and revelation. And are not the persons of both fairly summed up in the Hebrew writer's expression ” the effulgence of His glory and the very image of His substance”?

    The Angel/Logos, however, does reappear in the last book of the New Testament, and here is shown in his full glory (Revelation 1:10-4:1; 14:14-16(?); 19:11-21; 22:7,12-20). John clearly equates him with the figures in Ezekiel and Daniel who had the appearance of a man. He is further expressly designated as the Word of God (19:13), the Son of God (2:18), and as the one who was dead and is alive forevermore. If any further proof were needed that the Angel of the Lord is the Logos in pre-incarnate form, this should be sufficient. John's descriptions of the one “like unto a son of man” also makes it clear that the Angel is a divine person — for he, like the Father (1:8), is Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End (22:13).

    Link to this article Here

    #29446
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (Mercy @ Sep. 28 2006,13:42)
    Or it is Jesus, who is the very image of the invisible God yet is not God himself. The firstborn with a divine inheritence who was called the word of God in both the old and new testament. THE Son of God whom no other angel is like nor holds a simular authority.

    Who speaks for the Father but the Word of God?

    Jesus has been confused for God since the beginning. Jesus tells us no man has ever seen God. Jesus says he reveals God. Yet we are told they thought they saw God even when the passage states it was the angel of the Lord.

    His name is in him.


    Hi mercy,
    You have the choice to believe what you wish,
    but to teach what you believe to others,
    requires that what you believe is written,
    and not just implied.

    Our Master demands that we abide in the Word of God.

    See how often he said such words as

    “It is written..”

    Such is the teaching of God and not men.

    #29458
    Mercy
    Participant

    I just posted to huge posts filled with scripture.

    #29462
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi mercy,
    Did any of them say that Jesus is the angel of the Lord?
    That is the relevant issue here.

    #29469
    Mercy
    Participant

    Point taken.

    What do you make of the vast numbes of circumstantial evidence?

    Honestly, what do you think of it in more than one dismissive sentence. I would like to know if you think it has any credance.

    #29472
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi mercy,
    No one should ever rely on circumstantial evidence and teach it as truth. Such ideas have led to monstrous fabrications like the trinity theory.

    Truth comes directly from the mouth of God and has witnesses.

    2Cor 13
    ” 1This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.”

    #29479
    david
    Participant

    Quote
    Could this chapter being saying that Jesus is one of the angels only with a more perfect nature, anointing and inheritance?


    Yes Mercy. It could be saying that.

    #29480
    david
    Participant

    Quote
    Hi Is 1.18,
    If Jesus was the Angel of the Lord,
    and is part of a trinity God you say you espouse,
    how can you reconcile that an angel is part of God?

    Good question Nick. I thought most trinitarians rejected the possibility that Jesus could be the archangel or the angel of the lord, because for them, this would completely abolish the trinity theory. So they don't even consider it. Or so I thought.

    david

    #29481
    david
    Participant

    Quote
    What do you make of the vast numbes of circumstantial evidence?

    Honestly, what do you think of it in more than one dismissive sentence. I would like to know if you think it has any credance.

    Unless Nick sees it in writing Mercy, it doesn't exist.

    Nick, does the Bible contain all possible knowledge? Have we been told everything? We've been told all we need to know. But just because something isn't directly stated, does not in itself make it untrue.

    dave

    #29482
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi david,
    The bible contains what is provable.
    This is a site where we search out provable truth.

    #29489
    david
    Participant

    In courtrooms, things are proved right or wrong based on evidence.
    In your mind, the non-trinity belief is a “provable truth.” Yet to others, not so obvious. In fact, it's not provable. Yet, you speak of this belief quite a bit. You have no problem proclaiming it aloud.

    Which scripture says: “God is not a trinity” Nick?

    Which one?

    Evidence Nick.

    Evidence.

    Hooray.

    #29490
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi david,
    The courts are not filled with people trying to prove something is not true
    but people are there to defend what is alleged to be true.

    Only a brave man would teach someting as truth about spiritual matters without basing that teaching on what is clearly written and taught in the bible.

    Do you agree?

    #29511
    Adam Pastor
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 28 2006,21:40)
    Hi mercy,
    Did any of them say that Jesus is the angel of the Lord?
    That is the relevant issue here.


    I Totally Agree!

    Plus to those who believe the Angel of the Lord is Jesus
    … If Jesus is 'the Angel of the Lord' then who is the Angel of the Lord???

    (Mat 1:20-21)  But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

    (Mat 1:24-25)  Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: 25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

    (Mat 2:13)  And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

    (Mat 2:19-20)  But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, 20 Saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and go into the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child's life.

    (Mat 28:2-7)  And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. … 5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. 6 He is not here: for he is risen … 7 And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.

    (Luke 2:9-11)  And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid. 10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. 11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

    Do you see my point?

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