Where is Jesus in the Old Testament?

Many argue that Jesus is not mentioned in the Old Testament. Of course many religious Jews believe this to be the case because they do not believe he is the prophecied messiah. But there are also others who are not religious Jews who believe the Old Testament scriptures never mention or allude to Jesus being the messiah. Is this correct? Did the New Testament writers get a little too creative when they claim that Jesus fulfilled prophecies in the scriptures? Let’s take a look.

There is no argument that the New Testament contains gospels, letters, and teachings centred around the theme that Jesus is the Messiah. And we know that the Old Testament talks about the Messiah. But is there enough evidence to link this messiah to Jesus. Is there proof that he fulfilled the prophecies of the coming messiah as written in the Old Testament?

Yes indeed. There are Old Testament scriptures and prophecies that only Jesus of Nazareth has fulfilled. While his name is not mentioned for obvious reasons, Jesus Christ is certainly the only person in history to fulfil the prophecies and scriptures that we will look at.

Isaiah 51

This verse of the suffering messiah clearly speaks of Jesus. If you asked anybody who this verse is talking about, there is no doubt that the average person on the street would say it was Jesus. Even if you asked the average Jew this question, they too would say it is Jesus (Yeshua). Below is a video that proves this statement.

Next, we take a closer look at this chapter. While it seems to clearly point to Jesus Christ, some argue that it is talking about Israel. This is the go to interpretation for those who deny Jesus. Let’s imagine this is true and draw some conclusions from this interpretation to see if it makes any kind of sense. Listed below are the points this chapter makes that do not fit at all with Israel. The list comprises of 4 sentences with the word ‘Israel’ added in to see if it makes any sense. Following on from that, are the actual words of Isaiah 51.

  1. Israel has no beauty or majesty to attract us to him;
  2. Israel took up our pain,  bore our suffering, pierced for our transgressions, and by Israel’s wounds we are healed;
  3. Israel was assigned a grave with the wicked,  and with the rich in his death, though Israel had done no violence;
  4. Israel poured out his life as an offering for sin and will justify many,  and bear their iniquities.

1. Who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
    and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
    nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
    a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
    he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
    and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
    stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
    each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
    the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
    yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
    and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
    Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
    for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
    and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
    and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
    he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
    and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
    and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
    and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
    and made intercession for the transgressors.

If you are fair and unbiased, it seems that Isaiah 51 is talking about Jesus. Further, Israel doesn’t seem to fit in this verse. While somethings could fit, points like suffering and dying for the sins of humanity doesn’t fit with Israel in the slightest.


Psalm 22

Just before Jesus died on the cross for humanities sins, he quoted Psalm 22:1. It is important to know that it was a practice to quote a scripture and the hearers recite the rest of the scripture. It was a good way to remember the scriptures. Jesus quoted the first verse in that Psalm so that the hearers might understand what was happening before their eyes. See Matthew 27:46:

About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?”
(which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

Now look at Psalm 22:

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
    “let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
    since he delights in him.”
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
    and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs surround me,
    a pack of villains encircles me;
    they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
    and cast lots for my garment.

If you look at the above scripture and particularly the verses that are bolded, you will see that they are a very apt description for the death of Jesus. Let’s read what John wrote regarding the time just after the death of Jesus. It spells out some of the prophecies that were fulfilled.

John 19

31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.
33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.
36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”
37 and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”

The New Testament writers certainly believed that Jesus fulfilled Old Testament scripture. If you do not believe this to be the case, then ask yourself who in history has fulfilled these. If you are rational about it, you would at least have to admit that Jesus was the lead contender. In fact the only contender to date.


Daniel 3

In the Book of Daniel, it appears that the Son of God makes an appearance with three men who have been cast alive into a furnace. A fourth person appears who King Nebuchadnezzar says “the fourth looks like a son of the gods.” In other words, if the gods had a son, then this was him. Of course, there is but one Almighty God, and yes he does have a son. It is possible that this fourth person is an angel, but throughout the Old Testament an appearance of the Angel of the LORD is frequent. Many say that this is Jesus Christ before he came in the flesh, but others say it cannot be him as the Son of God was never an angel. This view does have a lot of merit though. Let’s address it by first reading Daniel 3:15-25.

15 Now when you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipe and all kinds of music, if you are ready to fall down and worship the image I made, very good. But if you do not worship it, you will be thrown immediately into a blazing furnace. Then what god will be able to rescue you from my hand?” 16 Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to him, “King Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. 17 If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to deliver us from it, and he will deliver us[c] from Your Majesty’s hand. 18 But even if he does not, we want you to know, Your Majesty, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.” 19 Then Nebuchadnezzar was furious with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, and his attitude toward them changed. He ordered the furnace heated seven times hotter than usual 20 and commanded some of the strongest soldiers in his army to tie up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego and throw them into the blazing furnace. 21 So these men, wearing their robes, trousers, turbans and other clothes, were bound and thrown into the blazing furnace. 22 The king’s command was so urgent and the furnace so hot that the flames of the fire killed the soldiers who took up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, 23 and these three men, firmly tied, fell into the blazing furnace. 24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar leaped to his feet in amazement and asked his advisers, “Weren’t there three men that we tied up and threw into the fire?” They replied, “Certainly, Your Majesty.” 25 He said, “Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods.”

The word Angel is found throughout the Old Testament. It usually refers to heavenly creature who delivers a message from God to humans. However, it can also refer to humans as they can be messengers too. Thus, angel or messenger can be applied to many kinds of being if they are a messenger of God. So this answers the concern that Jesus is not an angel. He actually is an angel or messenger, but not the usual messenger which are usually heavenly cherubs etc.

But there is a also a specific angel called: ‘The Angel of the LORD’ who appears numerous times in the Old Testament, but never in the New Testament. One reason for this could be that this messenger is none other than Jesus Christ before coming in the flesh and who would deny that Jesus is the main Messenger of God?

If this is him, then you would expect no appearances of this messenger during the time Jesus was alive on Earth and this is the case. It is also interesting to note that persons who saw this messenger as recorded in the Old Testament often said that they have seen God even though God himself is invisible. How do we make sense of this? Well in Colossians 1:15-16 we read:

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Colossians certainly fits with Jesus being the Angel of the LORD in the sense that there is no double up of them appearing at the same time and the fact that Jesus Christ is the exact image of the invisible God in bodily form whiches matches the description of seeing God. Let’s read more about the Angel of the LORD to see if this could be the identity of Jesus before he was born into this world.

To be continued.

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  • #20318
    kenrch
    Participant

    Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;

    The Revelation of Jesus Christ (or is it?) which God gave Him (God gave the Revelation, Doesn't that make it the Revelation of God?)……and He (Jesus) sent and signified it by “His Angel” unto His servant John.

    Who is Jesus' Angel? Is Jesus' Angel Michael the Archangel?

    1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;

    …with a shout, with the voice of an archangel..
    Is it the Lord that is going to shout, or is it the angel of the Lord that will announce His coming?

    In Revelations it is Jesus' angel that gives the revelation to John.
    Are the angel in 1Thess. 4:16 and Revelation 1:1 the same angel?

    Joh 17:5 And now, Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which “I had with thee before the world was”

    Jesus is Lord or all! Why would He want to return to being an angel?

    #20319
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,
    My view
    Jesus was never an angel.
    As life he was involved in all creation including that of angels
    Hebrews 1-2 goes to great lengths to differentiate between Jesus and the angels.
    If Jesus came to earth before us he had advantages over us.

    The verse in 1Cor 10 I believe is enlarged by 1Peter 1.10f
    “As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that was to come to you made careful searches and enquiries, seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow”

    The Spirit of Christ was with the Prophets and with Moses in the desert, the Holy Spirit.

    #20330
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (kenrch @ June 22 2006,19:27)
    Rev 1:1  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;

    The Revelation of Jesus Christ (or is it?) which God gave Him (God gave the Revelation, Doesn't that make it the Revelation of God?)……and He (Jesus) sent and signified it by “His Angel” unto His servant John.

    Who is Jesus' Angel?  Is Jesus' Angel Michael the Archangel?

    1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;

    …with a shout, with the voice of an archangel..
    Is it the Lord that is going to shout, or is it the angel of the Lord that will announce His coming?

    In Revelations it is Jesus' angel that gives the revelation to John.
    Are the angel in 1Thess. 4:16 and Revelation 1:1 the same angel?

    Joh 17:5  And now, Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which “I had with thee before the world was”

    Jesus is Lord or all! Why would He want to return to being an angel?


    Hi kenrch,
    Jesus is the Word of God so the revelation comes from God originally and God gives it and all authority to the Son and chooses to do all things through the Son.

    It appears from the verse about the angels of the little ones in Christ beholding the face of God and the comments about those at the house of John Mark's family discussing Peter knocking at the gate in Acts 12, that we all have an angel.

    Hebrews 1.14, too says angels serve the saved. So it is no surprise that Jesus has an angel just as there is also an angel called “the angel of the Lord' who serves God and speaks for God.

    Michael is said in Daniel I think to be in charge of the Israelites.

    1thess 4 16 simply says “the archangel”so we cannot know which one.

    #20345
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The following is food for thought regarding the meaning of the word angel.

    The word angel means 'messenger' and is not always referring to cherub. The Angel of the Lord literally means messenger of the  LORD. The word 'messenger' is used to describe what we know to be cherubs & seraphs, but also Christ, and prophets too.

    In both Hebrew and Greek, the words for “angel” simply means “messenger”.

    When people from the spiritual world appeared, they usually brought messages from the Lord, so they were called “messengers”  (Greek angeloi). Some have suggested that being an angel is a matter of one's function or office, not one's race. In this  respect the word “angel” is like the words “king” and “prophet” – it describes the person's function.

    In fact, since the word for angel means “messenger” it is used to describe people on earth who are messengers. For example, Haggai and John the Baptist were called messengers or “angels” of the Lord because they spoke for Him

    Haggai 1:13
    13 Then Haggai, the LORD's messenger, gave this message of the LORD to the people: “I am with you,” declares  the LORD.

    Thus the prophet Haggai was called God's messenger (angel); and it is known that “Malachi” is not a real name, but means  “messenger” or “angel”.

    Malachi 3:1
    1 “See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking  will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the LORD Almighty.

    Almost without exception this passage has been interpreted to refer to two messengers – John the Baptist as the first messenger (or angel) “preparing the way” and the Lord Jesus Christ as the second “messenger (or angel) of the covenant”.  It  is also quoted in Matt.11:10.

    The word for angel (messenger) in the OT is mal'ak {mal-awk'} – hence Malachi.

    The scripture below talks of a messenger who forgives sins and also has God's name in him.

    Exodus 23:20-23
    20 “See, I am sending an angel (messenger) ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the  place I have prepared.
    21 Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my  Name is in him.
    22 If you listen carefully to what he says and do all that I say, I will be an enemy to your enemies and will oppose those who  oppose you.
    23 My angel will go ahead of you and bring you into the land of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites and  Jebusites, and I will wipe them out.

    So it seems messengers are angels whether they are man, son of God, cherub, or seraph. Therefore it seems entirely possible (but not conclusive) in this context that Jesus could have been the Angel of the LORD, as he is the messenger of the LORD and the Word of God.

    The following is quoted from a webpage I read recently:

    I think it is unfortunate that the Greek word for messenger — “angel” — has become fastened onto our  English vocabulary. For most people an angel is a supernatural being with wings. What has happened is that human messengers or  prophets have become confused with messengers on short-term assignments from heaven, whether spirit-beings or resurrected  personages. A whole mythology has developed about “angels” over the millennia which has not only separated them from mortal  human beings but put wings on their backs also!

    It really is time to demythologise angels and to understand the connection between human angels (prophets/messengers) and  heavenly angels (spirits/ resurrected personages), for they are of the same origin. How else could angels have had intercourse  with human women and created a race of giants? Why didn't their babies have wings? (There is alot of mythology attached to  this also which we could examine another time).

    I am all in favour of dropping the Greek word “angel” because of the confusion and superstition it creates in men's minds. We  even use the term “angel” to refer to a child who is sweet and innocent, or a person who is particularly kind and helpful. But  this is an example of the evolution of our language in a direction that perverts the original meaning. For most people an  “angel” is fat, tubby little child hovering in a cloud playing a harp. But who would describe John the Baptist, who wore  animal skins, ate locusts and honey, and breathed God's judgment on a wicked generation as an “angel”? Yet that is exactly  what he was! So a change in vocabulary, especially amongst Christians, is long over due.

    In any case, supernatural beings who are God's messengers already have proper names like cherubim and sepharim which ought to  be used where appropriate. Todays earthly angels are called messengers, of which there are several kinds: patriarchs,  prophets, apostles, evangelists, and pastors.

    #20346
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi t8,
    Just because the word angel means messenger does not show that angels do not exist.

    Satan means “adversary” but only the Christadeplhians dare to wrongly claim that thus he does not exist.

    Matt 4.6
    “..'He will give His angels charge concerning you;And on their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot on a stone”
    Gal 1.8
    ” But even if we or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed”
    Lk 2.9
    ” And an angel of the Lord suddenly stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them; and they were terribly frightened”

    Are these human messengers?

    Men would manipulate words to muddy the water so they can lead men after them into their paths of deceit.

    The verse in Malachi certainly shows Jesus as a messenger of God. the Messiah brought the good news of salvation from God.

    #20348
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi Nick,

    I think you got the wrong end of the stick.

    I am not denying angels, I am saying that angels can refer to cherubs and men too.
    Like the word god or prophet, it appears to be an office, not a race.

    Yes Michael is an angel (messenger), but his race is Seraph (I think), perhaps cherub.

    In the Old Testament, Christ is refered to as an angel or mal'ak {mal-awk'}, just as John the Baptist is too.

    #20349
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi t8,
    Maybe I did,
    But did you or your quoted writer, not say angels are messengers, so the term angel should be dropped? If the term is dropped what is the name then of this class of heavenly beings? Messengers?How does that separate human or donkey messengers from these glorious beings?

    #20351
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    No I am not proposing that we drop the term. It was mentioned in the text I quoted and was not meant to be a statement, rather something to perhaps glean something from.

    Messengers of the LORD can be cherubim or man. God uses us and even some of the hosts of Heaven to bring messages. As far as defining earthly messengers from heavenly ones, I can only suggest reading the context.

    Like the word 'god', it can be used to define the Almighty right down to a wooden sculpture. We determine which kind of god by the context.

    #20353
    kenrch
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 22 2006,22:44)

    Quote (kenrch @ June 22 2006,19:27)
    Rev 1:1  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;

    The Revelation of Jesus Christ (or is it?) which God gave Him (God gave the Revelation, Doesn't that make it the Revelation of God?)……and He (Jesus) sent and signified it by “His Angel” unto His servant John.

    Who is Jesus' Angel?  Is Jesus' Angel Michael the Archangel?

    1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;

    …with a shout, with the voice of an archangel..
    Is it the Lord that is going to shout, or is it the angel of the Lord that will announce His coming?

    In Revelations it is Jesus' angel that gives the revelation to John.
    Are the angel in 1Thess. 4:16 and Revelation 1:1 the same angel?

    Joh 17:5  And now, Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which “I had with thee before the world was”

    Jesus is Lord or all! Why would He want to return to being an angel?


    Hi kenrch,
    Jesus is the Word of God so the revelation comes from God originally and God gives it and all authority to the Son and chooses to do all things through the Son.

    It appears from the verse about the angels of the little ones in Christ beholding the face of God and the comments about those at the house of John Mark's family discussing Peter knocking at the gate in Acts 12, that we all have an angel.

    Hebrews 1.14, too says angels serve the saved. So it is no surprise that Jesus has an angel just as there is also an angel called “the angel of the Lord' who serves God and speaks for God.

    Michael is said in Daniel I think to be in charge of the Israelites.

    1thess 4 16 simply says “the archangel”so we cannot know which one.


    Jesus the son of God you would think that He is worthy of an archangel to be His servant.

    If Jesus is Michael then an archangel sent his angel. And the Son of God is an archangel.

    #20354
    kenrch
    Participant

    Is Michael the only archangel in the bible?

    #20355
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Sure, Jesus has all created beings as his servants.
    Michael is called the great prince, Jesus is the Prince of princes.

    #20357
    kenrch
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ June 23 2006,02:03)
    Sure, Jesus has all created beings as his servants.
    Michael is called the great prince, Jesus is the Price of princes.


    Then if Michael is the only archangel then either it is Michael who is announcing Jesus in 1 Thess. or Jesus is an archangel.

    Wouldn't you say?

    #20358
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ June 23 2006,01:20)
    No I am not proposing that we drop the term. It was mentioned in the text I quoted and was not meant to be a statement, rather something to perhaps glean something from.

    Messengers of the LORD can be cherubim or man. God uses us and  even some of the hosts of Heaven to bring messages. As far as defining earthly messengers from heavenly ones, I can only suggest reading the context.

    Like the word 'god', it can be used to define the Almighty right down to a wooden sculpture. We determine which kind of god by the context.


    Hi t8,
    Do you believe there is a class of heavenly beings that is superior to natural man and, if so, what is their name?
    Should they be called heavenly messengers?

    I am pleased the translators have given us a name by which to distinguish these beings other wise it would be bizzarre.

    Does Archangel become chief messenger?
    Not all angels are sons of God.
    Not all angels are Princes.

    And the Prince of Princes is not an angelic prince but a higher being yet.

    #20359
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    To kenrch,

    My guess is that it's Michael. But just because the bible says that Michael is an archangel, it doesn't exclude that there are other archangels. Many think that Gabriel is also and that Satan use to be the Chief Cherub, so he was one too.

    However the bible doesn't go into the subject of angels to a great degree. The Book of Enoch is much more detailed in that respect, and mentions Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael as archangels (among others).

    #20360
    kenrch
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ June 23 2006,02:51)
    My guess is that it's Michael. But just because the bible says that Michael is an archangel, it doesn't exclude that there are other archangels. Many think that Gabriel is also and that Satan use to be the Chief Cherub, so he was one too.

    However the bible doesn't go into the subject of angels to a great degree. The Book of Enoch is much more detailed in that respect, and mentions Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael as archangels (among others).


    That's the point I was trying to make.  Rev. 22:14 Jesus uses an angel to relate the messange.  Then 1 Thess should also be an angel….Michael the Archangel.  Which of course nullify the JWs. But that's the way I see it.

    #20361
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (kenrch @ June 23 2006,02:45)

    Quote (t8 @ June 23 2006,02:03)
    Sure, Jesus has all created beings as his servants.
    Michael is called the great prince, Jesus is the Price of princes.


    Then if Michael is the only archangel then either it is Michael who is announcing Jesus in 1 Thess. or Jesus is an archangel.

    Wouldn't you say?


    Hi kenrch,
    Other princes exist, or Michael would not be called “one of the chief princes” in Daniel.
    The JWs went down this path and decided Jesus was an archangel because of comparing 1 Thess 4 with John, and then since they only found one in the bible decided Jesus was Michael.
    Any reading of Hebrews 1-2 , where Jesus is CONTRASTED with the angels must lead to the conclusion that he is not one.
    He is the LIFE. Their life came through him so he is greater than any ordinary messenger, or even a chief of those messengers.

    #20362
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 23 2006,21:50)
    Hi t8,
    Do you believe there is a class of heavenly beings that is superior to natural man and, if so, what is their name?
    Should they be called heavenly messengers?

    I am pleased the translators have given us a name by which to distinguish these beings other wise it would be bizzarre.

    Does Archangel become chief messenger?
    Not all angels are sons of God.
    Not all angels are Princes.

    And the Prince of Princes is not an angelic prince but a higher being yet.


    Hi Nick,

    Yes of course I believe in the heavenly hosts. They are made up of Cherubs, Seraphs, even men (Elijah and Moses) and perhaps many more tribes or races of beings. They are of course the sons of God and in the next age it is written that we will be like them, perhaps in reference to glory, but maybe even more so.

    It is also worth noting that heavenly angels who come to earth on missions seem indistinguishable from humans. Perhaps they can change their form. Paul tells us that some of us will entertain angels unaware, heavenly or not I do not know.

    Of course as you mention, the translators have rendered the word 'angel' as 'messenger' when talking of men. But my point is that we are at the mercy of the translators decision or even bias.

    That is why I asked the question in the first place. i.e., Is the pre-existant Jesus, the Messenger of the LORD in the Old Testament. Because there is really nothing but assumption to suggest that it is talking about a cherub or seraph (or winged creature).

    I thought it a timely question as there was a question from yourself in another discussion in reponse to a post I made regarding an Old Testament description of a being that was similar to Christ's description in the Book of Revelation.

    My intention was to never create confusion, rather to test all things as it says to do.

    At the end of the day we may not have the answers, but if we seek, then God just may reveal something to us.

    #20363
    kenrch
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 23 2006,03:03)

    Quote (kenrch @ June 23 2006,02:45)

    Quote (t8 @ June 23 2006,02:03)
    Sure, Jesus has all created beings as his servants.
    Michael is called the great prince, Jesus is the Price of princes.


    Then if Michael is the only archangel then either it is Michael who is announcing Jesus in 1 Thess. or Jesus is an archangel.

    Wouldn't you say?


    Hi kenrch,
    Other princes exist, or Michael would not be called “one of the chief princes” in Daniel.
    The JWs went down this path and decided Jesus was an archangel because of comparing 1 Thess 4 with John, and then since they only found one in the bible decided Jesus was Michael.
    Any reading of Hebrews 1-2 , where Jesus is CONTRASTED with the angels must lead to the conclusion that he is not one.
    He is the LIFE. Their life came through him so he is greater than any ordinary messenger, or even a chief of those messengers.


    So then it is “AN” Archangel that is announceing Jesus' return.

    I remember David saying that to assume that an Archangel's voice and not Jesus' is wrong (somewhere along those lines). The point I'm making is if Jesus sent an angel to John then it is absoutly possible that it is an Archangel announcing Jesus. CORRECT? Jesus seems to send messengers than deliver the message Himself just like the Father.

    Just trying to put two scriptures together to show that Jesus is NOT an Archangel.

    #20364
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Yes just as the Father sends Jesus, Jesus can send his or an angel.

    The Book of Revelation 1:1 explains this well.

    #20367
    kenrch
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ June 23 2006,03:18)
    Yes just as the Father sends Jesus, Jesus can send his or an angel.

    The Book of Revelation 1:1 explains this well.


    Ok t8 the next time knock on my door then I'll TRY to show them that (or just wait for David). :)

    Thanks I just wanted a confirmation. I don't believe I've heard this before. Rev. 1:1 and tieing it in with 1 Thess. 4:16 .

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