Home Christian Writings Supporting the Trinity Doctrine? – The Trinity Doctrine Revelation 1:8 & Revelation 1:17-18 Page 5

Revelation 1:8 & Revelation 1:17-18

The argument with combining these two verses leads many to believe that Jesus must be the Almighty God. In Revelation 1:8 it says:

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. 

Clearly the above verse is speaking of God. But Revelation 17-18 is clearly talking about Jesus because this ‘first and last’ died and then came back to life.

And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death

The above verses shows us that God is the Alpha and Omega and Jesus is the First and the Last. Thus the argument is made that Jesus must be God because both are called the First and Last or Alpha and Omega. So what is going on here?

The Alpha and Omega or First and Last is a Jewish idiom that speaks of the ultimate in the category that the context speaks of. While God is clearly the ultimate of all without question, clearly Jesus his son is the firstborn of all creation and everlasting life is through him. Of course we would not say that God was the first and the last in this category because God was not born, rather he always was and is, and is to come as it is written.

I could theoretically use this idiom to describe myself if I was the author of this site and the first and the last to post here. That could make me the ultimate member of this website (category). As you can imagine, this saying can be applicable in many contexts. For example, there is a map in London called the A-Z (think alpha and omega). It covers the streets in London. It is considered by some to be the ultimate London street map. But if God is the A-Z too, then can we say that God is that map as well? Well we need to look at the context we are defining don’t we. In what category could Jesus be first and last? Well there are many, but here are a couple:

  • He is the “author and finisher” of our faith (Hebrews 12:2);
  • He is the beginning of grace and the fulfillment of the Law (Matthew 5:17).

In Revelation 1:8, it is clearly talking about the Almighty God while in Revelation 1:17-18 it is clearly speaking of Jesus Christ. So what context is the the First and Last speaking with regards to Jesus? Well Revelation 18 actually tells us clearly.

“I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive”.

We know that Jesus rose from the dead, and because of this, many others will also be raised thereafter. He is the firstborn from the dead right? Further, we know that God cannot die and that this is not talking about God here. Satan would love us to believe that God could die. But he is the God of the living not the dead. If God died, then it would be game over for all life. That would be impossible though and we should be very thankful for that. So the God of the Living is not the one who died and became alive. In fact the God of the Living raised Jesus from the dead.

Acts 2:24
But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

Romans 8:11
And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.

Clearly, God is the Alpha and Omega. He is the ultimate and without rival. His son Jesus Christ the Lord is the first and last. He is both the firstborn of all creation and of the dead. And he is alive for ever more and can impart that life to his brethren.

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123456
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  • December 25, 2016 at 6:24 pm#818347
    terraricca
    Participant

    marty

    scriptures says that life was removed from Adam ,by trowing Adam out of the garden of eden ,from there on the body of flesh is decaying from generation to generation

    and scriptures says that no man can be taken out of this circle of dead ,

    but you said that man can were is that said ?

     

    your scripture in Roman 5;12 is confirming  what I said ,

    now the fact that Mary was a virgin does not change a thing in her to be a surrogate mother to the son of God ,but the fact that you deny that the only son the first of all creation did not was with God and did not existed prior to his coming down to earth does make you look as a lumping duck so to speak ,and so you annul your own scripture quote Rom;5;12

    you say that sin is not transmitted through birth ,then why all men die ?  was it not because Adam was thrown out of the garden of eden ? and so could no longer have access to the tree of life ? and because of it now must die ; sin = thrown out of garden of eden = no access to the tree of life =death to the flesh

    through the lack of physical food to sustain life everlasting,= and so die from it ,and that food remains short today and so we still dying ,all of us ,

    you say;

    Sin is a spiritual matter, and is spiritual separation from God, but as in Adam, he died spiritually, but then the body died and went back to the dust.

    =============================================================

    scriptures says that sin keep us from God ,so when in time God send his son to reunite himself with us (meaning those that believe in the son sacrifice and stop sinning )are now able to reconnect with God but still die in the flesh,

    scriptures also tell us that God will put back the food we need to live everlasting in the new earth and heaven ,,

    you say;

    The scripture does not say that Adam transmitted sin to humanity by his flesh

    ==========================================

    Adam did transmitted through his own decay in the flesh do to have being thrown out of the garden of eden ;adam lack of now having a perfect body transmitted the genes lacking life but as now be transmitted decay ,this was the cost of his action of not obeying God’s command ,and so being thrown out of Eden to face decay and death him and his offspring ,

    so what you say is wrong and untrue

    one more thing Adam was the only human not born of another human and death has come through him ,

    Jesus to be equal to Adam must be equal to the life of Adam ;and this is why Mary could by no means be a genetical mother but a surrogate mother to the first creation of God and only son Jesus the Christ ,for God is the only creator of his son Jesus /the Word  just like it was to Adam

    this is the truth and so yes Paul is right in Rom;5;12 and Col1;15-21 and John 1;1-18

     

     

     

    December 26, 2016 at 1:17 pm#818352
    942767
    Participant

    Hi Pierre:

    Sin cannot be transmitted to any one by any means.  Sin is disobedience to God’s commandments.  I cannot disobey or obey God for anyone except for myself.  I can entice someone to do evil, and if that someone obeys the enticement he can do the evil and sin, but I cannot transmit sin to that individual.  He has the free will, and can choose to obey God or not to obey.  It is sin that brings forth death, spiritual death and then physical death, and unless we are alive at the coming of Jesus for the church, we will not escape the physical death, but there are some who will be transformed without dying a physical death at his coming for the church.  But I do not remember saying anything about someone escaping the circle of death.

    The scriptures do not say that Jesus pre-existed, but you believe that he did, and so the burden of proving this is upon you.  I don’t believe that he pre-existed as a sentient person, and I have given you scriptures to support why I do not believe that he did. Show me how he came down from heaven?  Did he parachute down or how?

    Also, the scriptures do not say that Mary was the surrogate mother of Jesus.  God is His Father, and the scriptures tell us how that came about.

    I do not want to discuss this with you any farther, and so, I will not respond to any more of your comments regarding this issue since I have said all that I believe needs to be said.   I will pray that God will bring us into unity.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

     

    December 26, 2016 at 5:11 pm#818353
    terraricca
    Participant

    MARTY

    Sin cannot be transmitted to any one by any means. Sin is disobedience to God’s commandments. I cannot disobey or obey God for anyone except for myself. I can entice someone to do evil, and if that someone obeys the enticement he can do the evil and sin, but I cannot transmit sin to that individual.
    ===================================================================

    Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    the sin of Adam as the result of taking away everlasting life for all humankind ,there was no freedom of choice in it ;this is why we are all born in sin ,for we cannot live outside the decay of the sin of ADam ,and we stand as impure to God ,it is only the sacrifice of Christ that liberate us from that sin ,

    you say;The scriptures do not say that Jesus pre-existed
    ============================================================

    Jesus said “he came down from the father ;” Jesus also said ;that the only one that made the father known was the one that came down from the father ,it is obvious to me that Jesus made it clear were he came from and lather also said : that he will return to the father ;now if you return to were you come from and that place is heaven ,for God reside in heaven ,this to me is very clear ,

    but it is clear that we follow in many cases our own views and not the scriptures ,so the burden does not lay on a person other than ourself ,

    the scriptures does say /tells the truth of God but what we do to that truth is our own doing not God’s .

    take care friend

    December 27, 2016 at 11:00 am#818355
    942767
    Participant

    Ok, Pierre, I said I would not respond, but one more time.  The scriptures state:

    Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    Now read what the scripture says: sin entered into the world by one man, (that man was Adam), and death passed upon all men (why?) because all men have sinned, not because Adam transmitted sin to them, every man born of the sperm of man was tempted at some point during their life and yielded to the temptation and sinned.  The only human being that did not yield to temptation was Jesus, but he could have sinned, but he didn’t, and so as the scripture states “he overcame sin and death”, and it is through him that we also can overcome sin and death(spiritual separation from God), not a physical death.

    Yes, Jesus said he down from heaven, and I believe that, and I understand how he came down from heaven by what the scriptures tell me.  His body was conceived by the Holy Ghost in the womb of Mary and he was born of a woman just as all of humanity was born into this world.  His Spirit was formed as He obeyed the Word of God without sin unto death.  He is body, soul and spirit.  That is how I understand that he came down from heaven.

    Now, then if you see that he came down some other way that what I have stated, please show me how he came down from heaven.

    And one other question.  The scriptures state that God spoke in times past to the Fathers in many ways and by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to humanity through His Son.  If in fact he pre-existed prior to his birth into this world, why did God not speak to humanity through him until these last days?

    Hebrews 1King James Version (KJV)

    1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

    2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

     

    December 27, 2016 at 1:22 pm#818356
    terraricca
    Participant

    Marty

    you never addressed all my comments only pick and chose ,all your scriptures confirm my view ,

    first you add words not in scriptures like “spoken to humanity ” it never spoke to humanity but to the Jews for he was only send to God’s people but his disciples where send to the entire world with his message ,

    now the sin of Adam add the result of him being thrown out of eden and this resulted of not be able to sustain life it self (for the tree of life was only available in the garden of eden ,and so non of his offspring could sustain his own life and decayed and died ,
    not having the fruit of the tree of life means dead so all died because of adam’s sin and so we all have been born in the result of his sin, transmitted through the sin of Adam

    and that is what Paul says in Roman 5;12 and elsewhere ,

    now can any men be saved without the faith in Christ ? NO, why ?

    just as the tree of life was needed in Eden so is the faith in Jesus Christ needed to obtain everlasting life ,and this faith comes the forgiveness of our sins including the sin that kills us of Adam

    December 27, 2016 at 3:55 pm#818357
    942767
    Participant

    Hebrews 1King James Version (KJV)

    1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

    2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    (The scripture states that God spoke to “us” by his Son, are we “humanity” and if Jews “are they not humanity?”

    All of humanity died spiritually because of their own sin. Adam is not responsible for my sin, and neither is the devil. I sinned, and it is true that the only way to get forgiveness is to come to God with a repentant heart through the Lord Jesus. If it is Adam’s fault, then why do I have to repent?

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    December 27, 2016 at 4:14 pm#818358
    942767
    Participant

    Now if you are talking about the physical death that is common to all of us, it is clear that God never intended for us to live in this body forever. He states that in the creation He formed man out of the dust of the ground. I guess that it was possible for Adam to have eaten of the tree of life and lived forever in that body, but he didn’t and God has seen all from the beginning to the end.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    December 27, 2016 at 5:50 pm#818359
    terraricca
    Participant

    Marty

    1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

    2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    (The scripture states that God spoke to “us” by his Son, are we “humanity” and if Jews “are they not humanity?”

    All of humanity died spiritually because of their own sin. Adam is not responsible for my sin, and neither is the devil. I sinned, and it is true that the only way to get forgiveness is to come to God with a repentant heart through the Lord Jesus. If it is Adam’s fault, then why do I have to repent?

    ==================================================

    Heb 1:1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
    Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
    Heb 1:3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. NIV 1984.

    so Jesus appeared in the last days ; Jesus was the son of God ;through jesus God made the universe ? what universe ? when did this happen ?

    verse three Paul said that ;After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven; not before ,

    Jn 9:29 We know that God spoke to Moses, but as for this fellow, we don’t even know where he comes from.”
    Jn 9:30 The man answered, “Now that is remarkable! You don’t know where he comes from, yet he opened my eyes.
    Jn 9:31 We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly man who does his will.
    Jn 9:32 Nobody has ever heard of opening the eyes of a man born blind.
    Jn 9:33 If this man were not from God, he could do nothing.”
    Jn 9:34 To this they replied, “You were steeped in sin at birth; how dare you lecture us!” And they threw him out.

    Heb 3:11 So I declared on oath in my anger,
    ‘They shall never enter my rest.’ ”
    Heb 3:12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.
    Heb 3:13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness.
    Heb 3:14 We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.
    Heb 3:15 As has just been said:
    “Today, if you hear his voice,
    do not harden your hearts
    as you did in the rebellion.”
    Heb 3:16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt?
    Heb 3:17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert?
    Heb 3:18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed ?
    Heb 3:19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

     

    to follow;

    December 27, 2016 at 6:39 pm#818360
    terraricca
    Participant

    marty

    cont’n;

    you say;

    All of humanity died spiritually because of their own sin. Adam is not responsible for my sin, and neither is the devil .

    ===========================================

    Jas 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;
    Jas 1:14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed.
    Jas 1:15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
    Jas 1:16 Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers.

    this is exactly what has happened to Adam and Eve,

    Adam is guilty of sin ; so he deserves death ,that is what he received with Eve ,but what part from his sin is affecting us their offspring ?

    Ge 3:22 And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

    so Adam was thrown out of the garden him and Eve and all their future offspring ;and so ALL THEIR OFFSPRING WHERE TO DIE WITH THEM 

    SO two things happen when Adam sinned ;

    1. ) they were condemned to die for their sin (should not eat or you will die said God)
    2. )the way this sentence was applied was by throwing them out of the garden of Eden,physically but their offspring could never obtain everlasting life as well so all their offspring at birth where condemn to death right there ,

    now where they unable to talk to God ? GE 4:6 Then the LORD said to Cain, “ Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen?
    GE 4:7 “ If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.”

    GE 4:26 To Seth, to him also a son was born; and he called his name Enosh. Then men began to call upon the name of the LORD

    so we can understand that men were not cut out from God but men did not CALL ON GOD, so your view is wrong ,men did not die spiritually ,

    Adam is guilty of letting sin enter men’s world and so build a wicked world ,and Adam is also guilty of bringing death to us all ,the combination of those two things is guilty of all the wickedness in the world and we know that Satan provided men of knowledge for that is how wickedness increases even today.

    question;can you exclude yourself of  Adam death ? if no,then you are living Adam’s sin and the result of it .

    question;can you exclude yourself of the wickedness at birth of this world ? if NO ,you are born in sin and the result is death in addition of the sin of Adam we all personally can increase our sins ,no doubts about that ,

    the devil only help us to sin more

     

     

     

    December 27, 2016 at 6:47 pm#818361
    terraricca
    Participant

    Marty

    you say;Now if you are talking about the physical death that is common to all of us, it is clear that God never intended for us to live in this body forever.

    ================================================

    this comment goes directly against God’s word and will,

    GE 3:22 Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—
    GE 3:23 therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden

    SO YOU CAN READ THAT THE TREE OF LIFE IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN WAS THERE TO MAKE US LIVE FOREVER ,ONCE OUT OF THE GARDEN LIFE FOREVER WAS OVER 

    December 31, 2016 at 12:47 am#818365
    terraricca
    Participant

    Marty

    think about ;let say that instead of God punishing Adam and Eve with thrown out of the garden of eden but with a jail sentence for life and die in jail and have children in their jail and so on ,

    we would be still in jail all of us right ? yes and would it not be through Adam that we would live in jail ? yes

    do you understand this Marty ?

    December 31, 2016 at 1:42 pm#818370
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The scripture in 1 John 1 states that “eternal life was with the Father”, and we know that the “life was made manifest,

    It also states that the Word was with God and Jesus is often identified with that word. All you can prove is that he was manifest in the flesh when he was born. But you cannot say that when the Word was with God, that the Word did not exist with God as another. This is the view of the early Church Father’s who some were discipled by the disciples of the Bible.

    But for me, the things that Jesus is said to have done and the Word is said to have done are the same. This can be explained as Jesus being that Word and being called Jesus when he came in the flesh.

    Both are said to have been the agent by which God created all things. Both are attributed as being the first. Both came in the flesh which is important because the Antichrist spirit denies that Jesus came in the flesh and we know that the Word that was WITH God became flesh.

    December 31, 2016 at 1:45 pm#818371
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The scripture in 1 John 1 states that “eternal life was with the Father”, and we know that the “life was made manifest,

    A living entity can be made manifest. Manifest does not mean created, but expressed or seen.

    In fact a google of that word says this:

    “clear or obvious to the eye or mind.”

    If you manifest ‘depression’ for example, it means you are showing signs of depression. It does not mean that this is when depression started.

    December 31, 2016 at 4:42 pm#818376
    terraricca
    Participant

    “and we know that the “life was made manifest,”

    Jesus was that life for he came to bring us that live

    December 31, 2016 at 7:15 pm#818377
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    He claimed to be that life.

    John 14:6
    “I am the way and the truth and the life…”

    He was that eternal life that was with the Father.

    1 John 1:2
    The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was WITH the Father and has appeared to us.

    1 John 5:11
    And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

     

    December 31, 2016 at 9:06 pm#818382
    terraricca
    Participant

    right ,and through faith this life is given right ?

    January 1, 2017 at 12:18 pm#818383
    942767
    Participant

    Yes, he did claim to be the life, and he indicated that it was the words that God spoke to humanity through him was what gave life.

    John 6:

    63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

    When he speaks saying that he came down from heaven is he speaking of himself as the man Jesus? If so, as a man, he is body, soul and spirit.

    And so, tell me how he came down from heaven?

    John 17King James Version (KJV)

    17 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

    2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

    3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    January 1, 2017 at 12:30 pm#818384
    942767
    Participant

    Hi Pierre:

    I made a comment that it was clear that God did not intend for us to live in this body of flesh forever, and I made this comment because God has for-seen the end from the beginning.

    Adam introduced sin into this world through his disobedience, but every man thereafter could have obeyed God, but did not. All men have sinned. What about about Enoch? He repented and walked with God, and he did not have to go through a physical death:

    Genesis 5:

    22 And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:

    23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:

    24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him

    Or what about Elijah:

    2 Kings 2:

    11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    January 1, 2017 at 4:15 pm#818385
    terraricca
    Participant

    Marty

    you haven’t addressed my answer to your claims ;you totally ignore the tree of life that would make it possible to live for ever

    you also did not addressed the fact that man through Adam are all born in sin ,

    don’t get me wrong I do understand your view ,and i understand that each time it talks about Jesus coming down or going up were he was before you have to give your interpretation to those verses a thing that i do not do ,

    the same goes with the holy spirit ;All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet:
    23
    “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”).

    remember what Peter said about the prophecy that the prophets were inspired by the holy spirit ,

    But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid. I bring you good news that will cause great joy for all the people.
    11
    Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the Lord.

    1
    In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
    2
    but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

    so was Jesus the son of God that was used to speak on behalf of his father or was it the words spoken by Jesus that was in heaven and the words that were spoken by the prophets of old and those words came down to the prophets to be written or spoken to the people ,(kind of spokesperson) ?

    January 1, 2017 at 4:33 pm#818386
    terraricca
    Participant

    Marty
    Adam introduced sin into this world through his disobedience, but every man thereafter could have obeyed God, but did not. All men have sinned. What about about Enoch? He repented and walked with God, and he did not have to go through a physical death:
    ==============================================

    please explain those verses of Paul;

    By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.” For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

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