Home Christian Writings Supporting the Trinity Doctrine? – The Trinity Doctrine Revelation 1:8 & Revelation 1:17-18 Page 2

Revelation 1:8 & Revelation 1:17-18

The argument with combining these two verses leads many to believe that Jesus must be the Almighty God. In Revelation 1:8 it says:

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. 

Clearly the above verse is speaking of God. But Revelation 17-18 is clearly talking about Jesus because this ‘first and last’ died and then came back to life.

And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death

The above verses shows us that God is the Alpha and Omega and Jesus is the First and the Last. Thus the argument is made that Jesus must be God because both are called the First and Last or Alpha and Omega. So what is going on here?

The Alpha and Omega or First and Last is a Jewish idiom that speaks of the ultimate in the category that the context speaks of. While God is clearly the ultimate of all without question, clearly Jesus his son is the firstborn of all creation and everlasting life is through him. Of course we would not say that God was the first and the last in this category because God was not born, rather he always was and is, and is to come as it is written.

I could theoretically use this idiom to describe myself if I was the author of this site and the first and the last to post here. That could make me the ultimate member of this website (category). As you can imagine, this saying can be applicable in many contexts. For example, there is a map in London called the A-Z (think alpha and omega). It covers the streets in London. It is considered by some to be the ultimate London street map. But if God is the A-Z too, then can we say that God is that map as well? Well we need to look at the context we are defining don’t we. In what category could Jesus be first and last? Well there are many, but here are a couple:

  • He is the “author and finisher” of our faith (Hebrews 12:2);
  • He is the beginning of grace and the fulfillment of the Law (Matthew 5:17).

In Revelation 1:8, it is clearly talking about the Almighty God while in Revelation 1:17-18 it is clearly speaking of Jesus Christ. So what context is the the First and Last speaking with regards to Jesus? Well Revelation 18 actually tells us clearly.

“I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive”.

We know that Jesus rose from the dead, and because of this, many others will also be raised thereafter. He is the firstborn from the dead right? Further, we know that God cannot die and that this is not talking about God here. Satan would love us to believe that God could die. But he is the God of the living not the dead. If God died, then it would be game over for all life. That would be impossible though and we should be very thankful for that. So the God of the Living is not the one who died and became alive. In fact the God of the Living raised Jesus from the dead.

Acts 2:24
But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

Romans 8:11
And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.

Clearly, God is the Alpha and Omega. He is the ultimate and without rival. His son Jesus Christ the Lord is the first and last. He is both the firstborn of all creation and of the dead. And he is alive for ever more and can impart that life to his brethren.

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Discussion

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123456
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  • November 27, 2016 at 5:29 pm#818103
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Yes, because it doesn’t say ONLY anywhere.

    The 144,000

    4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

    5 from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad twelve thousand, 6 from the tribe of Asher twelve thousand, from the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand, from the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand, 7 from the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand, from the tribe of Levi twelve thousand, from the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand, 8 from the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand, from the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand, from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed.

    A Multitude from the Tribulation

    9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying,

    “Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying,

    “Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”

    13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” 14 I [a]said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His [b]temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. 16 They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun [c]beat down on them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the [d]water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes.”

    November 27, 2016 at 5:34 pm#818104
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

    Terr, this verse does not say that only 144,000 are redeemed from the earth. It says that 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth sang a new song that no one else could learn.

    November 27, 2016 at 5:46 pm#818108
    terraricca
    Participant

    t8

    does it say there are MORE than 144k that are redeemed from the earth ?

    as for those that come out of the great tribulation , what is that tribulation ?

     

    have a look at what scriptures says about the 144k and see what it says about those that come out of the great tribulation ?

    not quite the same thing is it ?

     

    and tell me what kind of tribulatio n is this that you can come out of it ?

    did they all come out at once ?     for they all do the same thing to come out of it right ?

    November 29, 2016 at 12:59 pm#818114
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Terr, you can answer your own question.

    Look for where it says ‘ONLY’ 144,000 are redeemed from the Earth. If you cannot find it, then look at where it talks about others who are not of the 144,000 standing before the throne of God.

    November 29, 2016 at 2:45 pm#818122
    terraricca
    Participant

    “No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.”

    first it says “NO ONE COULD LEARN THE SONG ”   except  “THE 144K WHO HAD BEEN REDEEMED FROM THE EARTH”

    so to me it is very simple the new song could not be learned by anyone else but those that have been redeemed from the earth and that number is 144k.

    now the great crowd that was standing before the throne have not been redeemed from the earth but saved from the great tribulation through their acceptance of the blood of Christ ,

    all the people that  ever lived on earth are standing before God for God says that the earth is his footstool , to my understanding being redeemed from the earth means removed from the earth to live with Christ in heaven this is the argument that Paul as in 1 Corint.15

    that is why it says that the 144k followed Jesus wherever he goes ,this is never said from the great crowed ,

     

    you seem to not wanting to answer my questions and yet call me ignorant

    November 29, 2016 at 3:17 pm#818124
    942767
    Participant

    Relative to God the Alpha and Omega speaks to the fact that He is eternal.

    Jesus is the uniquely begotten Son of God.   He was conceived by the Holy Ghost in the womb of Mary.  He then was born again by the Spirit of God when he was raised from the dead.  He was in the likeness of human flesh.  He was not born of the sperm of man like the rest of humanity.  It is not all that complicated that is what the scriptures indicate.

    He is Alpha and Omega in that he is the firstborn of God, first in the womb, first born again from the dead, and he is now eternal.

    Rev. 1:

    17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

    18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

    Col 1:
    Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

    Revelation 3:14King James Version (KJV)

    14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

     

     

    November 29, 2016 at 4:09 pm#818126
    terraricca
    Participant

    Jesus is the first born over all of creation ,for all things where created through him ,

    he was not made a man through the holy spirit but came to be in Mary’s womb as per the holy spirit (the truth of God’s word)but he was made man through the power of God, read the scriptures ot prophecy and the fulfillment of the prophecy ,Jesus being put in Mary’s womb is the fulfillement of those written words,

     

    November 29, 2016 at 7:49 pm#818129
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    “No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.”

    first it says “NO ONE COULD LEARN THE SONG ”   except  “THE 144K WHO HAD BEEN REDEEMED FROM THE EARTH”

    So that means that the other redeemed cannot learn that song.

    …and from the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand. After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”…

    November 30, 2016 at 2:36 am#818130
    terraricca
    Participant

    yes that is what the scriptures says right ?yes

    if you read the parable of the marriage you will find some of the expressions find in Revelation that you have quoted

    November 30, 2016 at 4:14 pm#818141
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    So you don’t agree with your previous view that only 144,000 are redeemed now?

    December 1, 2016 at 9:46 am#818148
    terraricca
    Participant

    NO,i never have changed my in seven years i have been on your forum , but you have

    scriptures are very clear to me ONLY 144K have been redeemed from the earth ,

    December 4, 2016 at 10:41 am#818155
    942767
    Participant

    Hi Pierre:

    Jesus is the first born over all of creation

    Col 1:
    Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning

    Matt:

    18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

    The above scriptures show how “he is the firstborn over all of creation”.

    December 4, 2016 at 11:17 am#818156
    terraricca
    Participant

    hi Marty

    your comment shows how net picking works ;you always come to the wrong conclusion ,

    The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

    For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
    verse 18 says that Jesus as all supremacy since when ? since he died or since his creation ,if you say since his death then you are wrong ,for he would not have supremacy over all creation ,if you say since his creation then you still wrong for his death and resurrection are only one of the tings in which he as supremacy ,

    so verse 18 is only one of the things in Jesus supremacy if not then the word ALL as no meaning

    December 4, 2016 at 11:37 am#818157
    942767
    Participant

    But, maybe, just maybe, you are the one who is wrong?

    December 4, 2016 at 2:16 pm#818158
    terraricca
    Participant

    hi Marty

    If I am wrong could you show me were I was wrong with the scriptures ?
    for you have many scriptures shown,for my understanding

    I am looking for the truth in scriptures

    ===========================================

    your comment shows how net picking works ;you always come to the wrong conclusion ,

    The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

    For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
    verse 18 says that Jesus as all supremacy since when ? since he died or since his creation ,if you say since his death then you are wrong ,for he would not have supremacy over all creation ,if you say since his creation then you still wrong for his death and resurrection are only one of the tings in which he as supremacy ,

    so verse 18 is only one of the things in Jesus supremacy if not then the word ALL as no meaning

    December 5, 2016 at 11:34 am#818171
    942767
    Participant

    Hi Pierre:

    You say:

    If I am wrong could you show me were I was wrong with the scriptures ?
    for you have many scriptures shown,for my understanding

    I am looking for the truth in scriptures

    (I have already given you scriptures to show when he was made supreme over all of creation.)

    Here are a couple of others:

    1 Co:20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all

    Hebrews 2:

    5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

    6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?

    7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

    8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

     

    December 5, 2016 at 1:03 pm#818172
    terraricca
    Participant

    hi Marty

    I thank you for resetting your scriptures and now let see what it says ;

    1 Co:20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all

    Hebrews 2:

    5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

    6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?

    7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

    8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

    ————————————————————–

    Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    Col 1:16 For through him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created through him and for him.
    Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
    Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
    Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
    Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
    Col 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.
    Col 1:22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—
    Col 1:23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

    ———————————–

    your scriptures tells what really happen to Jesus and why he had to die and that he is the first to come through the resurrection of the death,and that he was placed over the works of God’s hands,it also says that “all things where placed to be subject under his feet,but all those things cannot yet be seen “says Paul

    Paul says in Col;15 ;
    1) He is the image of the invisible God ;when was he declared the image of God ? when he was first created or when he came down as a man ?
    2) the firstborn over all creation.; when was Jesus created to be the first over all creation ?

    verse 16 says ; For through him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible,; this verse shows that he was created way before creation start to be created through him right ? I believe so

    verse 17 ;confirm clearly that Jesus existed at the very beginning of creation right ? I believe so

    verse 18 ; talks about the Jesus church of which he his the head ;and the very reason he is the head is also for he is the first to go through death and resurrection
    for it would be impossible for man to go to heaven without resurrection for the price for death must be paid first
    ” he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.”
    not only Jesus is the first in creation he also is the first to be resurrected from the death and for the simple reason that God ” For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, ”

    but why can you ask?;Paul says ;”so that in everything he(Jesus) might have the supremacy.” also in verse 19;For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,

    to accomplish this Jesus must have been the very first creation of God and be the anointed one to go through all things to pay the price and remain the supremacy in all things

    so your scriptures confirm all what I have said so far ;please tell me where I was wrong in my conclusion ?

    December 5, 2016 at 1:41 pm#818173
    942767
    Participant

    Hi Pierre:

    He is the “first of those who will have been born again”, “the last Adam”. He is the first of the new creation. Adam was the first of God’s creation, man, and God said the following:

    Genesis:

    26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

    December 5, 2016 at 4:25 pm#818176
    terraricca
    Participant

    hi Marty
    i am sad to see that you haven’t addressed any of my understanding of the scriptures i have shown you ,and so must conclude that those scriptures are saying is wrong in your eyes ,also you keep net picking verses like you ignoring Gen 1;27,

    so i believe that the dogma of man religion as over taken your ability to see truth as it is written in the scriptures,

    Jesus never has to be born again for he had no sin ,but this also you would not understand for it is truth ,

    i hope that you may one day see the truth in scriptures as a whole without net picking ,but that is all up to you

    may God bless your voyage

    December 6, 2016 at 7:45 pm#818187
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Revelation 7 (NASB)

    An Interlude

    7 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads.”

    The 144,000

    4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

    5 from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad twelve thousand, 6 from the tribe of Asher twelve thousand, from the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand, from the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand, 7 from the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand, from the tribe of Levi twelve thousand, from the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand, 8 from the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand, from the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand, from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed.

    A Multitude from the Tribulation

    9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying,

    “Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying,

    “Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”

    13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” 14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. 16 They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes.”

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