John 18:5-6

Because YHWH calls himself “I am”  in Exodus 3:13-14, did Jesus claim to be Yahweh when he said “I am” in John 18:5-6?

5 “Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “I am he,” Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.)
6 When Jesus said, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground.

Exodus 3:13-14 says the following:
13 Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, `The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, `What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?”
14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: `I AM has sent me to you.'”

But what does Yahweh say in Psalm 2:7
“I will declare the decree: Yahweh hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

and in Acts 13:33
33 he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm:
” ‘You are my Son; today I have become your Father.

Also look at Hebrews 1:5 & Hebrews 5:5

So Yahweh is the Father of Jesus. Jesus is the Son of Yahweh. Jesus is not Yahweh and therefore he is not God. Rather Jesus is the son of Yahweh, otherwise known as the Son of God.

Back in John 18 we can see that the Jews came to arrest Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane. They first took him to Annas (vs.13). Then they took him to Caiaphas (vs.24) and eventually to Pilate (vss.28,29). A parallel account is found in Matthew 26:57-68. Notice, in particular, verse 59. The same men that had fallen backward to the ground were in attendance when the council sought false witnesses against Jesus to put him to death. Verse 60 says they couldn’t find any. Eventually two came forward. Interestingly, they didn’t bear false witness about what Jesus said in Jn.8:58, but about his reference to destroying the temple and building it again in three days, then Jesus was condemned for claiming to be the Son of God in Matthew 26:63-65.

The point about Matthew 26 is, why would false witnesses be sought if they had true witnesses in attendance? The arresting officers heard Jesus say “Ego eimi.” They could have stoned him right there in the garden for blasphemy, but they didn’t. They could have reported the supposed blasphemy to the council, but they didn’t. Why not? Because it wasn’t blasphemy, nor was it a stoneable offense. He was merely identifying himself as Jesus of Nazareth.

It is believed by some that the account recorded in John 8:48-59 further supports the position that Jesus is the “I AM.” Why else would the Jews try to stone him (v59)? He obviously blasphemed in the eyes of the Jews.

“I am” is a translation from Greek words “ego eimi”. Is the mere utterance of “ego eimi” a blasphemy? Does the use of “ego eimi” automatically identify the speaker as Yahweh, the I AM? In Luke 1:19, the angel Gabriel said, “Ego eimi Gabriel.” In John 9:9, the blind man whose sight was restored by Jesus said, “Ego eimi.” In Acts 10:21, Peter said, “Behold, ego eimi (I am) he whom ye seek.” Obviously, the mere use of “ego eimi” does not equate one to the “I Am” of Exodus 3:14.

Jesus used the phrase “ego eimi” at least twenty times and yet, in only one instance did the Jews seek to stone him (John 8:58). Jesus said, “I am the bread of life” to a large crowd, in John.6:35-48, yet no one opposed him. In verse 41, the Jews murmured because he said, “I am (ego eimi) the bread which came down from heaven.” But in verse 42, the Jews questioned only the phrase, “I came down from heaven” and ignored “ego eimi.” The same is true of verses 51 & 52

In John 8:12, 18, 24, & 28, Jesus used “ego eimi” with Pharisees present (vs.13) and yet, no stoning. He, again, used it four times in John 10:7, 9, 11, & 14 with no stoning. Jesus said to his disciples, “that ye may believe that I am (ego eimi)” in John 13:19 without them batting an eye.

This brings us back to Jn.8:58. Why did the Jews seek to stone him on that occasion? The context of Jn.8 shows that Jesus;

  • accused the Jews of “judging after the flesh” (vs.15).
  • said they would die in their sins (vss.21,24).
  • implied they were in bondage (vss.32,33).
  • said they were servants of sin (vs.34).
  • said they were out to kill him (vss. 37,40).
  • implied they were spiritually deaf (vs.43,47).
  • said their father was the devil (vs.44).
  • said they were not of Elohim (vs.47).
  • accused them of dishonoring him (vs.49).
  • accused them of not knowing Yahweh (vs.55).
  • accused them of lying (vs.55).
 

Aside from that, the Jews misunderstood Jesus words leading them to believe;

  • that he accused them of being born of fornication (vs.41).
  • Jesus had a devil (vs.52).
  • that he was exalting himself above Abraham (vs.53).
  • that he saw Abraham (vs.56).

Jesus words in verse 58 were the culmination of an encounter that was so offensive to the Jews, that they couldn’t restrain themselves. They simply couldn’t take it anymore so they sought to stone him, not because of two simple words, “ego eimi,” but because he was making himself out to be greater than their beloved father Abraham.

We need to also remember that “I AM” in the Old Testament is a different set of words from different languages to the New Testament instances. It would be like saying that “I am” in English is equating one with God for it is the word used by God in Hebrew. That is simply not true. Many say “I am” in the New Testament just as they say those words today without meaning they are God.

If you were watching Mickey Mouse on the Disney channel and Goofy said to Mickey, “are you Mickey Mouse”, am I to assume then that Mickey Mouse is claiming to be God if he answers, “I am”? Of course not. He is simply identifying himself as Mickey Mouse.

Back to the Old Testament we see that it was YHWH that said “I am that I am”. He was saying that he was the ever exisiting one. So his name was actually YHWH. To equate the common words “I am” as a claim to be YHWH is indeed a big stretch of the imagination.

Here is an example of the words “I am” in everday language/

Q: Are you Peter?
A: I am.

Conclusion: If I am Peter then am I blaspheming when I say I am. I am not saying I am YHWH. I am saying that I am Peter. I am simply answering the question asked of me. This behaviour is very normal and common as you can see. In fact this paragraph alone contains 7 instances of the term ‘I am’. Yet who in their right mind would think that I was claiming to be God?
To say that Jesus claimed to be God because he said “I am” can only be at most, an unsupported and extemely weak opinion. There are no scriptures in the bible that uses this occurrence as a teaching to promote a Trinity Or to prove that Yashua is Yahweh. To hinge the Trinity Doctrine on an assumption is indeed a weak argument to make and wouldn’t get very far in a court of law. To say that we are condemned if we do not believe in a certain vague interpretation is totally unacceptable to all who earnestly seek truth. Remember that we are judged by the measures we judge others, so we shouldn’t be so unreasonable.

If you read the whole Bible without bias, would you come to the conclusion that Jn.8:58 is saying that Jesus is God and part of a Trinity. I really do not think so, therefore it is unfair to condemn someone who doesn’t hold to your opinion if you indeed believe in the Trinity Doctrine and I have to note that there are hundreds of scriptures that show us clearly that the Father is God and Jesus is the Son of God. These verses are clear teachings. The Trinity Doctrine is based on weak assumptions which come from the mind of Man. I prefer to believe the scriptures, rather than assumptions and imaginations of men.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

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Viewing 20 posts - 161 through 180 (of 255 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #793281
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi davidl,

    Why would they say stuff that belongs to the teacher?

    They are students.

    #793282
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi davidl,

    Afraid of what?

    Your speculations are of man.

     

    Fear God

    #793283
    DavidL
    Participant

    are you afraid your phony doctrines will finally be exposed..?

    #793284
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Davidl,

    The Word of God taught about heavenly things that only the Spirit had insights into.

    We can only see in part.

    #793285
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi davidl,

    Happy to have any phony things exposed.

    You cast the trinity out of your eye and you will be in a better position to do so.

    #793286
    DavidL
    Participant

    I think you are making it up as you go…

    #793287
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi davidl,

    You should reflect a bit.

    In defence of what you hold dear you have never done so and prefer to attack people.

    #793288
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi davidl,

    Should we consult the catholic theologians before we read scripture?

    Should we follow the speculations of foolish men?

    #793289
    DavidL
    Participant

    anti-trinity bias has twisted your thinking – just like t8..

    #793290
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi davidl,

    If you are of the Spirit as you claim I think we would have seen a different response.

    #793291
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi davidl,

    No we are positive people but we hate to see guys like you ensnared with the ideas of fools.

    Freedom is the plan.

    #793292
    DavidL
    Participant

    ideas of fools…?

    ..you are very opinionated about everyone else’s beliefs, especially when it comes to the trinity (which I have no problem with because I have not brought into extra-Biblical teachings or the studies of men…rather I have relied on Scripture to guide me)…

    You obviously have a big problem with the trinity, which has caused you to view Scripture in this biased context…

    ..you need to re-evaluate your own relationship first, before trying to correct others – because you will never see the truth with a biased heart..

     

    If you are not born of the Spirit, Nick – how can you help those who are…?

    #793293
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Davidl,

    Should we not be passionate in our defence of what is written?

    Should we tolerate what fools do to the sacred words?

    Does God approve of this trinity nonsense?

     

    Offering yourself as an example probably is not wise.

    #793294
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi davidl,

    You came to the idea of trinity yourself by reading the scriptures?

    Rediscovered the wheel?

    amazing

    #793295
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi davidl,

    A problem with the trinity?

    What trinity?

     

    Jesus is our teacher and never mentioned it.

    To whom else should we go?

     

    Speculation leads to darkening of the minds-and other problems.

     

    #793297
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Davidl,

    ”that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.”..

     

    Indeed the Spirit of Christ is one with the Spirit of truth from the Father.

    And in Christ we can share that unity.

    In him we are seated in heavenly places already .[eph 2.6]

    #793326
    kerwin
    Participant

    DavidH,

    Jesus constantly spoke in ways that Spiritual and so hard to understand for those who do not look at them in Spiritual ways.

    If you believe what Jesus stated then you also believe that any full mature believer can say “I and the Father are one”, “I and Jesus are one”, or “I am one with the Father and Jesus”. I cannot say any of those things because I am not fully mature in Christ.

    I cannot say “I have been he since before Abraham was made” because I am not the one God chose to put his Spirit on in order to serve as the Savior of the world. I am not that important that the Jews have looking forward to my time. God has known me since before Abraham was made so there is something I can say that is equivalent but I applies to my role ybut I lack the knowledge of the role that he has had since before the world began.

    Anyone who is fully mature in Christ reveals who both Christ and God are. Paul, Peter, John, Mark, Luke, Jude, James, Matthew, and anyone else that wrote the NT reveal who both Jesus and God are revealed through their words and their actions that are not sinful.

    Very few of their sinful words or actions are recorded in Scripture.

    #793334
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,

    We are only given an earnest of the Spirit as God’s initial investment in us.

    It is up to us to build on that gift by asking seeking and knocking.

    If we grow in grace we will become more useful to God.

    #793351
    DavidL
    Participant

    Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.

     

    #793352
    DavidL
    Participant

    @t8

    If the Father revealed that Jesus is the son of God and the Messiah, and if this was commended by Jesus himself, then why don’t you listen to him yourself.

     

    Yes – listen to what the Son has said – “I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE.”

     

    Eternal life is found where..?  in the Father alone…??

    No, “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.”

    ..eternal life is in knowing the Father AND the Son, together..!! (ONE)

    “That they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.” (I and the Father are One).

    (a verse that’s really about the unity of the saints on earth baring testimony to the reality of Jesus Christ – yet because of your false teachings you have ironically created the very ‘Babylon’ you warn others to escape from..!!)

    …see how you cherry-pick the words of Jesus in an attempt to justify your own anti-trinity doctrine… but in so doing you are, in fact, actually denying the very testimony of Jesus Christ Himself – replacing the inspired Word with your own rags of human interpretation..

     

    “No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.” – 1 John 2:23

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