John 18:5-6

Because YHWH calls himself “I am”  in Exodus 3:13-14, did Jesus claim to be Yahweh when he said “I am” in John 18:5-6?

5 “Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “I am he,” Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.)
6 When Jesus said, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground.

Exodus 3:13-14 says the following:
13 Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, `The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, `What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?”
14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: `I AM has sent me to you.'”

But what does Yahweh say in Psalm 2:7
“I will declare the decree: Yahweh hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

and in Acts 13:33
33 he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm:
” ‘You are my Son; today I have become your Father.

Also look at Hebrews 1:5 & Hebrews 5:5

So Yahweh is the Father of Jesus. Jesus is the Son of Yahweh. Jesus is not Yahweh and therefore he is not God. Rather Jesus is the son of Yahweh, otherwise known as the Son of God.

Back in John 18 we can see that the Jews came to arrest Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane. They first took him to Annas (vs.13). Then they took him to Caiaphas (vs.24) and eventually to Pilate (vss.28,29). A parallel account is found in Matthew 26:57-68. Notice, in particular, verse 59. The same men that had fallen backward to the ground were in attendance when the council sought false witnesses against Jesus to put him to death. Verse 60 says they couldn’t find any. Eventually two came forward. Interestingly, they didn’t bear false witness about what Jesus said in Jn.8:58, but about his reference to destroying the temple and building it again in three days, then Jesus was condemned for claiming to be the Son of God in Matthew 26:63-65.

The point about Matthew 26 is, why would false witnesses be sought if they had true witnesses in attendance? The arresting officers heard Jesus say “Ego eimi.” They could have stoned him right there in the garden for blasphemy, but they didn’t. They could have reported the supposed blasphemy to the council, but they didn’t. Why not? Because it wasn’t blasphemy, nor was it a stoneable offense. He was merely identifying himself as Jesus of Nazareth.

It is believed by some that the account recorded in John 8:48-59 further supports the position that Jesus is the “I AM.” Why else would the Jews try to stone him (v59)? He obviously blasphemed in the eyes of the Jews.

“I am” is a translation from Greek words “ego eimi”. Is the mere utterance of “ego eimi” a blasphemy? Does the use of “ego eimi” automatically identify the speaker as Yahweh, the I AM? In Luke 1:19, the angel Gabriel said, “Ego eimi Gabriel.” In John 9:9, the blind man whose sight was restored by Jesus said, “Ego eimi.” In Acts 10:21, Peter said, “Behold, ego eimi (I am) he whom ye seek.” Obviously, the mere use of “ego eimi” does not equate one to the “I Am” of Exodus 3:14.

Jesus used the phrase “ego eimi” at least twenty times and yet, in only one instance did the Jews seek to stone him (John 8:58). Jesus said, “I am the bread of life” to a large crowd, in John.6:35-48, yet no one opposed him. In verse 41, the Jews murmured because he said, “I am (ego eimi) the bread which came down from heaven.” But in verse 42, the Jews questioned only the phrase, “I came down from heaven” and ignored “ego eimi.” The same is true of verses 51 & 52

In John 8:12, 18, 24, & 28, Jesus used “ego eimi” with Pharisees present (vs.13) and yet, no stoning. He, again, used it four times in John 10:7, 9, 11, & 14 with no stoning. Jesus said to his disciples, “that ye may believe that I am (ego eimi)” in John 13:19 without them batting an eye.

This brings us back to Jn.8:58. Why did the Jews seek to stone him on that occasion? The context of Jn.8 shows that Jesus;

  • accused the Jews of “judging after the flesh” (vs.15).
  • said they would die in their sins (vss.21,24).
  • implied they were in bondage (vss.32,33).
  • said they were servants of sin (vs.34).
  • said they were out to kill him (vss. 37,40).
  • implied they were spiritually deaf (vs.43,47).
  • said their father was the devil (vs.44).
  • said they were not of Elohim (vs.47).
  • accused them of dishonoring him (vs.49).
  • accused them of not knowing Yahweh (vs.55).
  • accused them of lying (vs.55).
 

Aside from that, the Jews misunderstood Jesus words leading them to believe;

  • that he accused them of being born of fornication (vs.41).
  • Jesus had a devil (vs.52).
  • that he was exalting himself above Abraham (vs.53).
  • that he saw Abraham (vs.56).

Jesus words in verse 58 were the culmination of an encounter that was so offensive to the Jews, that they couldn’t restrain themselves. They simply couldn’t take it anymore so they sought to stone him, not because of two simple words, “ego eimi,” but because he was making himself out to be greater than their beloved father Abraham.

We need to also remember that “I AM” in the Old Testament is a different set of words from different languages to the New Testament instances. It would be like saying that “I am” in English is equating one with God for it is the word used by God in Hebrew. That is simply not true. Many say “I am” in the New Testament just as they say those words today without meaning they are God.

If you were watching Mickey Mouse on the Disney channel and Goofy said to Mickey, “are you Mickey Mouse”, am I to assume then that Mickey Mouse is claiming to be God if he answers, “I am”? Of course not. He is simply identifying himself as Mickey Mouse.

Back to the Old Testament we see that it was YHWH that said “I am that I am”. He was saying that he was the ever exisiting one. So his name was actually YHWH. To equate the common words “I am” as a claim to be YHWH is indeed a big stretch of the imagination.

Here is an example of the words “I am” in everday language/

Q: Are you Peter?
A: I am.

Conclusion: If I am Peter then am I blaspheming when I say I am. I am not saying I am YHWH. I am saying that I am Peter. I am simply answering the question asked of me. This behaviour is very normal and common as you can see. In fact this paragraph alone contains 7 instances of the term ‘I am’. Yet who in their right mind would think that I was claiming to be God?
To say that Jesus claimed to be God because he said “I am” can only be at most, an unsupported and extemely weak opinion. There are no scriptures in the bible that uses this occurrence as a teaching to promote a Trinity Or to prove that Yashua is Yahweh. To hinge the Trinity Doctrine on an assumption is indeed a weak argument to make and wouldn’t get very far in a court of law. To say that we are condemned if we do not believe in a certain vague interpretation is totally unacceptable to all who earnestly seek truth. Remember that we are judged by the measures we judge others, so we shouldn’t be so unreasonable.

If you read the whole Bible without bias, would you come to the conclusion that Jn.8:58 is saying that Jesus is God and part of a Trinity. I really do not think so, therefore it is unfair to condemn someone who doesn’t hold to your opinion if you indeed believe in the Trinity Doctrine and I have to note that there are hundreds of scriptures that show us clearly that the Father is God and Jesus is the Son of God. These verses are clear teachings. The Trinity Doctrine is based on weak assumptions which come from the mind of Man. I prefer to believe the scriptures, rather than assumptions and imaginations of men.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

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Viewing 20 posts - 121 through 140 (of 255 total)
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  • #792723
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The Father wants you to receive His Son, Jesus Christ…

    This is what we teach. But you teach that the Father of God wants us to believe that the Son of God and the Spirit of God is the one and same God.

    Let’s be real about this. It is more gobbledy gook from Babletown.

    #792914
    DavidL
    Participant

    How did you become a Christian t8…?

     

    was it by logic – or was it by revelation…?

    so why revert back to relying on logic..?

    truth is revealed by the Spirit alone..?

    logic only deceives and misleads…!

     

    (There is a way that SEEMS right, but…)

     

    #792920
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi davidl,

    The Spirit speaks through Jesus.

    Discern the Spirit.

    #792977
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @DavidL, reading and teaching what scripture teaches may or may not be logical from our understanding. But it is true and we should love the truth.

    “For us, there is one God the Father”. Yes there is a certain logic to that when I think about it, but more importantly, it is true.

    I teach these scriptures. In many cases, I am really just quoting them. So attacking me over this is futile, but it does show us your heart. What possess you to attack this and other central truths of the faith? What do you expect to gain from this behaviour?

    #792981
    Ed J
    Participant

    How did you become a Christian t8…?

    was it by logic – or was it by revelation…?

    Hi David L,

    For me it was by logic. Would you like to know why?

    ___________
    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org _______________________________________________________________________________________________________
    ”Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.” – JEHOVAH GOD

    #793036
    DavidL
    Participant

    So attacking me over this is futile

    was just asking you a question t8 – How did you become a Christian..?

    what made you realize Jesus was true..?

    #793039
    kerwin
    Participant

    DavidL,

    logic only deceives and misleads

    This statement is an untruth and accuses Jesus of sin for Jesus used logic. So, do you not read where he uses logic to prove that Abraham and Isaac are alive despite the fact their body is dead. Do you fail to understand that Paul reasoned in the marketplace of Athens just as Scripture states. Do you instead condemn what you do not understand and in doing so condemn the actions of Jesus and his servant Paul, as well as the actions of other righteous humans.

    Nowhere in Scripture is logic condemned. Those that condemn it are serving the Devil at the time they condemn it. They condemn it only because they are afraid it will reveal their words as being false. Don’t you desire to be free of their number?

    #793046
    kerwin
    Participant

    DavidL,

    The false prophets have always claimed that their words were revealed to them by God. If their words are soothing to the itching ears of those who do not seek God’s righteousness then they are accepted as men while the true prophets are not.

    The false teachers are still doing the same and those love darkness are still doing the same.

    Those who are inspired by God will seek his righteousness because it is their food and drink.

    #793051
    DavidL
    Participant

    how did the Pharisees interpret Scripture…?

    #793078
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The Pharisees interpreted the letter of the Law and ignored the spirit of the Law.
    In other words, they observed the outward appearance and ignored the heart.

    The only true God is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. The Father is his God and our God. Jesus is the son of God and the Messiah. This is the letter and the spirit as it was revealed by the Father and not flesh and blood.

    Flesh and blood as well as demon reveal other things like the Trinity.

    If the Father revealed that Jesus is the son of God and the Messiah, and if this was commended by Jesus himself, then why don’t you listen to him yourself. Peter was blessed by this statement, and you can be too.

    #793085
    bodhitharta
    Participant

    HI Kerwin

    This statement is an untruth and accuses Jesus of sin for Jesus used logic. So, do you not read where he uses logic to prove that Abraham and Isaac are alive despite the fact their body is dead. Do you fail to understand that Paul reasoned in the marketplace of Athens just as Scripture states. Do you instead condemn what you do not understand and in doing so condemn the actions of Jesus and his servant Paul, as well as the actions of other righteous humans.

    Nowhere in Scripture is logic condemned. Those that condemn it are serving the Devil at the time they condemn it. They condemn it only because they are afraid it will reveal their words as being false. Don’t you desire to be free of their number?

    Very solid and true statement but you have to understand condemning your logic excuses the person from thinking as I said “they don’t WANT to work it out” and you are 100% correct it will reveal their entire process lacking but it is like someone who gets really fat so fat you just accept that it is normal or okay, now I’m not condemning being fat but the process is similar you will magically have “big Bones” or “slow metabolism” or some other disproven theory when the fact is much more simple and when you take the time to work it out, you might be honest enough to say it took a long time to get this fat and it’s going to take a massive amount of work and a reduction in calories and even a change in what I eat but to do that you have to be able to face “the wasted years” most people who want to change something have this type of guilt that disables them from moving forward it’s like you don’t want to get to a point where you say “damn I was really being stupid or wasting my life” so you just keep doing what you are already doing, that’s why almost no one can have a breakthrough here or even all the friends you know so when you do see that 1 friend who has had a breakthrough you become amazed but the fact is they just got honest with themselves

    #793148
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi KW,

    You imagine there is human logic in the spiritual words of Jesus.

    #793198
    DavidL
    Participant

    t8

    If the Father revealed that Jesus is the son of God and the Messiah, and if this was commended by Jesus himself, then why don’t you listen to him yourself.

     

    Yes – listen to what the Son has said – “I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE.”

     

    Eternal life is found where..?  in the Father alone…??

    No, “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.”

    ..eternal life is in knowing the Father AND the Son, together..!! (ONE)

    “That they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.” (I and the Father are One).

    (a verse that’s really about the unity of the saints on earth baring testimony to the reality of Jesus Christ – yet because of your false teachings you have ironically created the very ‘Babylon’ you warn others to escape from..!!)

    …see how you cherry-pick the words of Jesus in an attempt to justify your own anti-trinity doctrine… but in so doing you are, in fact, actually denying the very testimony of Jesus Christ Himself – replacing the inspired Word with your own rags of human interpretation..

     

    “No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.” – 1 John 2:23

    #793199
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi davidl,

    Not one and the same.

    One in the Spirit

    #793215
    DavidL
    Participant

    As I have pointed out to you before Nick, if the Oneness Jesus spoke of was just being ‘one in the Spirit’, then others also should be able to say the things Christ said…

     

    Yet who is there that can say, “I and the Father are One.” ..?

    Who can say, “If you’ve seen Me you’ve seen the Father.”..?

    or again, “Before Abraham was born, I AM.”…?

     

    If Jesus was simply just another man who was used of the Spirit, then please reveal what prophet or apostle could ever say these things He said…?

     

    #793221
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi davidl,

    Indeed Jesus is one in the Spirit with the Father, as we can be too.

    To see the Son is to see the Father IN HIM as Thomas discovered.

    The Word was with God in the beginning so before Abraham.

     

    Have you heard the voice of the Spirit in Jesus yet?

    #793223
    DavidL
    Participant

    That may sound very good and ‘spiritual’ – but it didn’t really answer my question did it..?

    #793225
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi davidl,

    If scripture cannot teach you why should we try?

    #793235
    princess
    Participant

    Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

    that means you David.

    #793241
    kerwin
    Participant

    DavidL,

    Yet who is there that can say, “I and the Father are One.” ..?

    Jesus also said “that they may be one, even as we are one” in John 17:22

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