1 Peter 2: 6-8

1 Peter 2
6 For in Scripture it says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”
7 Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,”
8 and,“A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall.”

The argument made here is that this text read with Isaiah 8:12-15 shows that Jesus is God. So let’s look at that scripture:

Isaiah 8:12-15
11 For Jehovah spake thus to me with a strong hand, and instructed me not to walk in the way of this people, saying,
12 Say ye not, A conspiracy, concerning all whereof this people shall say, A conspiracy; neither fear ye their fear, nor be in dread thereof .
13 Jehovah of hosts, him shall ye sanctify; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.
14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
15 And many shall stumble thereon, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.

Okay so the argument is made that Jesus is called a stone and so is God.

The first obvious thing to point out is that when God decides to become something such as a rock of offense, he personally doesn’t turn up as that rock, but sends a messenger. We see in other scriptures that God is light, yet he sends Jesus into the world and Jesus proclaims that “he is the light of the world”. When Jesus is about to leave this world he passes on this mantle to us, (the Church) when he proclaimed, “You are the light of the world” in Matthew 5:14.

“You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden; 15nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.…

So when God sent light into this dark world, he sent a messenger. If we conclude that God is light and Jesus is the light means that Jesus is God, then you also have to believe that we (the Church) are God. Thus if God refers to himself as a stone and sends Jesus who is identified as the stone, then that is not a valid proof that the verse means that Jesusis God.

Further, there is another main point that needs to be understood here. When you look at Isaiah 8:12-15, it becomes very clear that YHWH is actually talking about another as the rock and not himself. Read closely.

“See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a chosen and precious cornerstone,
and the one who trusts in him
will never be put to shame.”

Notice the words, “I lay a stone”. I guess that Trinitarians just read it as “I am this stone”. But it does not say that or refer to that.
Now notice the words “a chosen and precious cornerstone”. If God is the stone, then ask yourself who is the one who CHOSE the stone?

Again this so-called Trinity proof verse is easily exposed when you decide to read the text carefully and without bias. Obviously, our brother Peter doesn’t support the view that Jesus is God when he talks about Jesus being the stone that causes people to stumble.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

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  • #768492
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @t8

    But God’s existence is not subject to anyone or anything. He always was. He has always been.

    Actually God the FATHER’s existence demands the existence of an offspring. So, are you telling me that He was not always God the Father? Did He’change?’

    #768498
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @t8

    LU, we must believe in the one true God and his son.

    Very good, that would make a theos who is the Father and a theos who is the Son. That makes two theos whom we must believe in and follow for salvation.


    @NickHassan


    @terraricca

    you did not answer this:

    How many persons who are called theos somewhere in scripture must you believe in and follow to have everlasting life?

    All three of you, please answer this fundamental question.

    The answer calls for a number, please leave your ‘spin’ out of it. Look at the facts.

    #768540
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    Ask them… not US.

    #768541
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    Are you trying to drive a wedge between the Father and the Son?

    What God has joined together let no man put asunder

    #769392
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Very good, that would make a theos who is the Father and a theos who is the Son. That makes two theos whom we must believe in and follow for salvation.

    Sorry but no, we must believe in one who is God the Father as well as his son. While his son can be called theos like others are, we are not required to believe that he is THE God and neither a god as far as I can tell. We are required to believe that he is the son, the messiah, and the lord in order to believe the tuth. Yes he can be described as theos in certain contexts as others can too, he is not THE God and there are not two Gods or two who are God. Just the same as Judas is not THE Devil but can be called devil in certain contexts.

    If you understood what it is that I am saying, then you wouldn’t make such feeble attempts to dissuade me away from believing in Jesus true identity as the son, messiah, and lord by making him God instead.

    The Devil is the god of this age. So does that make him part of the Trinity? No. But your definition of theos with Christ if applied to others who are legitimately called theos would make them God too. So the thinking is faulty.

    Descriptives are not proof of identity LU. This is where you stumble and where you are trying to get others to stumble.

    A more honest question to ask instead would be to say: “How many persons described as theos somewhere in scripture must you believe in and follow to have everlasting life?”. My answer to that would be God himself and his son. This is why you will see that God in scripture is the Father nearly always. Some exceptions describe Satan, men, angels, and even an earthquake as theos and/or elohim, while there are a lot of references to idols being false theos.

    #769393
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,
    Jesus called God his Father.
    He encouraged us to do the same.
    That avoids this manmade confusion

    #769394
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi LU,
    If you still do not know Who God is you should keep searching.
    He is close to you

    #769400
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Actually God the FATHER’s existence demands the existence of an offspring. So, are you telling me that He was not always God the Father? Did He’change?’

    When God had a son or begat the Word from himself, it did not change him. He did not get better or worse. He is the same. He is perfect.

    #770889
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @t8

    When God had a son or begat the Word from himself, it did not change him. He did not get better or worse. He is the same. He is perfect.

    Ahhh….so it is His perfection that is consistent and what is meant by the fact that He changes not. You keep saying that Jesus changed so He cannot be God. In what ways was Jesus less than perfect, t8??

     

    #770890
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @t8
    you said:

    Sorry but no, we must believe in one who is God the Father as well as his son. While his son can be called theos like others are, we are not required to believe that he is THE God and neither a god as far as I can tell.

    You say that we are not required to believe that Jesus is a god, hmmm. If you know that He is identified as a god, then who is He god of, t8?

    #770891
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @NickHassan
    You also admit that Jesus is a god. Who do you believe He is a god of?

    #770896
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Lu,

    He is not our God.

    If you are one with him and he with God how could that be?

    #770956
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @NickHassan

     

    Just answer the question. I didn’t ask who He is not a god of.
    You also admit that Jesus is a god. Who do you believe He is a god of?

    #771162
    tigger
    Participant

     

    The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Zondervan, 1986, tells us:>

    “The reason why judges are called ‘gods’ in Ps. 82 is that they have the office of administering God’s judgment as ‘sons of the Most High’. In context of the Ps[alm] the men in question have failed to do this…. On the other hand, Jesus fulfilled the role of a true judge as a god and ‘son of the Most High’.” – Vol. 3, p. 187.

    So, whom do you believe the judges were gods of?

    Young’s Analytical Concordance of the Bible, Eerdmans, 1978 Reprint, “Hints and Helps to Bible Interpretation”:

    “65. GOD – is used of any one (professedly) MIGHTY, whether truly so or not, and is applied not only to the true God, but to false gods; magistrates; judges angelsprophets; etc.”

    So whom do you believe the prophets were gods of?

    ………………………………………

    The New Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon, 1979, Hendrickson, p. 43:

    Elohim [God or gods]: “a. rulers, judges, either as divine representatives at sacred places or as reflecting divine majesty and power…. b. divine ones, superhuman beings including God and angels…. c. angels Ps. 97:7 …”

    So whom do you believe the angels are gods of?

    ………………………………………………

    Some of the trinitarian sources which admit that the Bible actually describes men who represent God (judges, Israelite kings, etc.) and God’s angels as gods include:

    1. Young’s Analytical Concordance of the Bible, “Hints and Helps…,” Eerdmans, 1978 reprint;

    2. Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, #430, Hebrew and Chaldee Dict., Abingdon, 1974;

    3. New Bible Dictionary, p. 1133, Tyndale House Publ., 1984;

    4. Today’s Dictionary of the Bible, p. 208, Bethany House Publ., 1982;

    5. Hastings’ A Dictionary of the Bible, p. 217, Vol. 2;

    6. The New Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon, p. 43, Hendrickson publ.,1979;

    7. Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, #2316 (4.), Thayer, Baker Book House, 1984 printing;

    8. The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, p. 132, Vol. 1; and p. 1265, Vol. 2, Eerdmans, 1984;

    9. The NIV Study Bible, footnotes for Ps. 45:6; Ps. 82:1, 6; and Jn 10:34; Zondervan, 1985;

    10. New American Bible, St. Joseph ed., footnote for Ps. 45:7, 1970 ed.;

    11. A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures, Vol. 5, pp. 188-189;

    12. William G. T. Shedd, Dogmatic Theology, Vol. 1, pp. 317, 324, Nelson Publ., 1980 printing;

    13. Murray J. Harris, Jesus As God, p. 202, Baker Book House, 1992;

    14. William Barclay, The Gospel of John, V. 2, Daily Study Bible Series, pp. 77, 78, Westminster Press,1975;

    15. The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible (John 10:34 and Ps. 82:6);

    16. The Fourfold Gospel (Note for John 10:35);

    17. Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible – Jamieson, Fausset, Brown (John 10:34-36);

    18. Matthew Henry Complete Commentary on the Whole Bible (Ps. 82:6-8 and John 10:35);

    19. John Wesley’s Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible (Ps. 82:1).

    20. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (‘Little Kittel’), – p. 328, Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1985.

    21. The Expositor’s Greek Testament, pp. 794-795, Vol. 1, Eerdmans Publishing Co.

    22. The Amplified Bible, Ps. 82:1, 6 and John 10:34, 35, Zondervan Publ., 1965.

    23. Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament, John 10:34, 35.

    24. B. W. Johnson’s People’s New Testament, John 10:34-36.

    25. The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Zondervan, 1986, Vol. 3, p. 187.

    26. Fairbairn’s Imperial Standard Bible Encyclopedia, p. 24, vol. III, Zondervan, 1957 reprint.

    27. Theological Dictionary, Rahner and Vorgrimler, p. 20, Herder and Herder, 1965.

    And, of course the highly respected and highly popular Jewish writer, Philo, had the same understanding for “God”/”a god” about the same time the NT was written. See the LOGOS study.

    And the earliest Christians like the highly respected NT scholar Origen and others – – including Tertullian; Justin Martyr; Hippolytus; Clement of Alexandria; Theophilus; the writer of “The Epistle to Diognetus”; and even super-Trinitarians St. Athanasius and St. Augustine – – also had this understanding for “a god.”

     

    #771165
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    Good question.

    Since you have appointed him a god then perhaps you and other religious folk who do not know his God, the Father.

    #771186
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    Jesus said scripture calls men gods.

    What are they gods of?

    #771218
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Thanks for your post Tigger.

    LU, who is Jesus a god of?

    If he is called theos by office, then he is not the God of everyone. A better word would be lord.
    Does the Bible have examples of Judges who were called God by other people. Were the Pharisees called God. Was Nicodemus called God?

    Yet they were described as theos and sons of the Most High God. Sounds like Jesus too doesn’t it. Except of course he is first in all things.

    Judas was described as devil, but who goes around calling him the/a devil. When was the last time you called Judas the/a devil. Yet he is described in that term.

    Point is, for us there is one true God the Father. He has a son who he made lord and messiah.

    You are playing word games. We are interested in the words of life.

    Jesus called the Pharisees a bunch of vultures or blood suckers or some other similar term.

    How many pharisees in scripture do you know that were actually called Vulture?

    Jesus said to Vulture you hypocrite… lol.

    Yeah na.

    #771220
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @tigger

    Very good, theos can simply mean mighty one. The question is, ultimately, which mighty ones participated in creation, salvation, and are given dominion, glory, honor, and praise for ever and ever by the other mighty ones??? Do you know? Maybe if you read the other things those sources tell you, you will see what they say and while you are at it, try the Bible and see what it says.

    Rev 5:13

    And every created thing which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things that are in them, heard I saying, Unto him that sitteth on the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the dominion, for ever and ever.

    How many theos are given the blessing, the honour and the glory and the dominion for ever and ever, tigger? One or two?

    Have a great day!

    #771221
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @t8
    you said:

    If he is called theos by office, then he is not the God of everyone. A better word would be lord.

    Will EVERYONE be bowing down to Him in the end, t8? Is He Lord of ALL, t8? Ultimately, when all is said and done, who do all the others whom are called theos bow down to and give honor, praise, glory, and dominion for ever and ever? If the Bible says ALL CREATED THINGS IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH AND UNDER THE EARTH do this, then Jesus is a theos who is a theos to everyone and if they also bow down to the Father, that would make two who are called theos who ultimately get the highest recognition.

    You can find this in your Bible too.

    Rev 5:13

    And every created thing which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things that are in them, heard I saying, Unto him that sitteth on the throne,

    and unto the Lamb,

    be the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the dominion, for ever and ever.

    #771223
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @NickHassan
    you said:

    Since you have appointed him a god then perhaps you and other religious folk who do not know his God, the Father.

    Were you done with your thought? Or were you just getting started? Did you want to complete your statement?

    Are you a created being and ultimately will you be among those who are bowing down to the one on the throne and to the Lamb (both are referred to as theos, btw, as you admit)?

    Rev 5:13

    And every created thing which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things that are in them, heard I saying, Unto him that sitteth on the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the dominion, for ever and ever.

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