Did Jesus pre-exist before his birth on Earth?

Where did Jesus come from?

John 6:38-40
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

The first verse suggests that Jesus came down from Heaven. This seems to contradict that belief which suggests he first existed as a man when he was born into this world. For if Jesus came into existence for the first time when he was conceived through Mary, how could he come down from Heaven? We (Man) came into existence when we are born into this world, but would it be correct to say that we came down from Heaven too? If a verse said that we came down from Heaven, would you think that we pre-existed in Heaven? If so, then why not Jesus?

John 3:17 is another verse that provides support that Jesus came down from Heaven or was sent rather than created.

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

The word ‘send’ is the Greek word ‘apostello’.

apostello {ap-os-tel’-lo}
1) to order (one) to go to a place appointed
2) to send away, dismiss
2a) to allow one to depart, that he may be in a state of liberty
2b) to order one to depart, send off
2c) to drive away

To be sent surely implies existence otherwise you would just say born or created. In fact this word (sent) is similar in meaning and sound to the word Apostle (apostolos), which means “one sent forth with orders”. To be sent forth with order, you must exist.

John 6:62
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

Jesus is clearly stating here that he came from above since he eventually ascended into Heaven to be at the right-hand of God.

How old is Jesus?

John 1:15
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.‘ “

John the Baptist was six months older than Jesus Christ. So it is physically impossible for Christ to be before him in age. If this verse is referencing age, then it shows preexistence. Jesus existed before  John the Baptist in the least.

John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!

Jesus claimed to exist before Abraham, the father of the Jews. The words ‘I am’ mean ‘I exist’. So Jesus claimed existence before Abraham. We can see that Jesus is getting older as we explore the scriptures. But how old?

Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

Here we can see that majesty, power, and authority through Jesus Christ is before all ages (all worlds) and forever more into the future. This strongly implies that Jesus existed even before all things. But can we substantiate this?

Did Jesus exist before all creation?

Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Colossians answers the question outright. It states that “He is before all things“.  But are there other verses that support this idea?

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So there is nothing that was made that didn’t involve Jesus being there. This verse alone answers the question because the universe, angels, and men were made and Jesus was present when they were created according to these verses. In case that is not enough to convince you, I also add another clear verse that says the same thing.

Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Is Jesus the Word of God?

But some say that this is talking about the Word and not all believe that Jesus is the Word of God. They argue that Jesus came from the Word, but is not the Word itself that was with God in John 1:1. If you believe this, then please explain the next two verses within their wider context:

Revelation 19:13
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

Colossians 1:15-18
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

Okay, if you are honest, this is a closed case. God created all things through the Word. Jesus is called the Word of God and also the son of God. We are also told that God created all things through the son of God. Even if you do not believe that Jesus is the Word, then you still have to believe that Jesus pre-existed on account of him being the son of God. But what we know from scripture is that Jesus existed as the Word of God before he came as a man called Jesus. We know that the Word became flesh.

More proof verses

If Jesus pre-existed, then you might expect that even though the above verses are clear, there would be more verses that teach or at least imply that he pre-existed. So let’s see if this is the case.

Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Here we see that Jesus is the offspring of David, yet he is also the root of David, which at appears to show existence before King David. He also claims to be the bright Morning Star and we read in Job how the Morning Stars were present when God created the Earth.

Job 38:6-7
“On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone, When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy? 

Luke 10:18
He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Comparing Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10, some say that Satan and his angels fell to the earth before the birth of Christ as a man. If this was the case, then Jesus saw an event that took place before he was born as a man. However, others argue that Satan hasn’t fallen to the Earth yet, or that he has, but Jesus saw this in a vision. Regardless, it certainly doesn’t contradict that Jesus pre-existed.

Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

The above verse talks about someone who will rule Israel and whose origin is from ancient times. Who but Jesus could fit that description?

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God/Divine.

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ 1:14 Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Clearly, Jesus was with God in the beginning as the Word of God. This places his existence as before all things and thus comes as no surprise that he was there when God created all things.

The Angel of YHWH

We know from certain scriptures that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and many assume that Jesus gave the Law of God. We are told in Acts:7:30-39 for instance that an Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses through whom God spoke and this is the same Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on the living words (The Law) to Moses.

30 “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.
31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord’s voice:
32 ‘I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.’Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
33 “Then the Lord said to him, ‘Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground.
34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.’
35 “This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, ‘Who made you ruler and judge?’ He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush.
36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert.
37 “This is that Moses who told the Israelites, ‘God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.’
38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
39 “But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.

So is this Angel of the Lord, Jesus? Well it seems possible. Perhaps the correct model to look at is the one mentioned in Revelation 1:1

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Here we can see that the order of the Revelation started with the Originator which is God. He then passed the message to Jesus Christ who in turn sent it to his Angel and then to John. So perhaps it is possible that the angel in Revelation is the same angel mentioned in Acts:7:30-39.

But the Angel of YHWH or Angel of the LORD is described as one like the son of gods.

Daniel 3:24-25
Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astounded and stood up in haste; he said to his high officials, “Was it not three men we cast bound into the midst of the fire?” They replied to the king, “Certainly, O king.” He said, “Look! I see four men loosed and walking about in the midst of the fire without harm, and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods!”

The idea that a preincarnate Jesus was this Angel of the LORD is a popular one. We know that this Angel of the LORD is never mentioned while Jesus is walking the earth which supports this idea. But it could also be a coincidence. One connection that can be made with Jesus being this messenger is found in Judges 13:18.

Manoah said to the angel of the LORD, “What is your name, so that when your words come to pass, we may honor you?” But the angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?”

Now read what Isaiah prophesied in Isaiah 9:6 .

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Clearly, Isaiah was speaking of Jesus Christ and note that he was called Wonderful Counselor. Is there a connection here? Perhaps. What we do know is the word ‘angel’ is the same word messenger in the Old Testament, and while it is held that Jesus is not an angel in kind, we know he certainly was a messenger of YHWH and would be fair to say even ‘The Messenger of YHWH’.

So the idea that he may be this angel is not that far fetched. Some vehemently oppose this idea, but they are not aware that both Jesus and John are called angels in the messenger sense.

More to come here……

More proof that Jesus pre-existed

Rev 3:14
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.

Moving on we read the following in Philippians 2:5-11
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Surely the above verses assumes preexistence.  Look at verse 7: ‘but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness’. This verse points out that Jesus humbled himself to become a (or like a) human and also a servant. So this suggests to us that he preexisted in a higher state because to humble oneself is to become lower. If he started life in this humbled state, then it would be incorrect to say that he humbled himself. Further, he “found himself in appearance as a man” is a weird statement to make if he first existed as a human baby.

This verse is often used in support of the trinity doctrine because of the word ‘equal’. But if you are equal to something it means that you are not that thing, rather you are like that thing. This scripture is also very clear about the following: The Father is God and Jesus is Lord and that God exalted Jesus to the highest place.

A closer look at verse 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Now I am not sure if Jesus was exalted higher than he was before he came to this world or whether he was exalted to the exact position that he had before. But if we look at John 17:5 again we can see that Jesus asked to return to his former glory.

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

The above verse is clear about Christ’s pre-existence in glory before the world began. Just to prove this is not an isolated scripture here is a similar verse:

John 16:28
I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.”

The next verse also confirms that Jesus pre-existed in Heaven.

John 3:12-15
12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man.
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

Ezekiel 8:1-3
1 In the sixth year, in the sixth month on the fifth day, while I was sitting in my house and the elders of Judah were sitting before me, the hand of the Sovereign LORD came upon me there.
2 I looked, and I saw a figure like that of a man. From what appeared to be his waist down he was like fire, and from there up his appearance was as bright as glowing metal.
3 He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance to the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood.

This verse is interesting in the sense that the description is very similar to the description of Jesus Christ in Revelation 1:12-18,

12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
13 and among the lampstands was someone “like a son of man,” dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.
14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.
15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.
16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.
18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Have a look at the next verse. 1 Corinthians 11:3 (English-NIV)
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Now the word head in the Greek is ‘kephale’ which can mean head, source or master. Now if we notice the order in a time sense, we have to admit that God is the first as he is the only one who has existed for all eternity with no beginning. We also know from scripture that the man came first and the woman came from the man. So that part is correct if we use a timeline. That just leaves Christ. Did he come between God and Man. I think so, as I believe that all things came from him and this opinion does fit perfectly into this model in a time sense at least. Anyway the word Christ here is ‘Christos’ which means “anointed”. So the anointed is the head of Man.
God > Christ > Man > Woman

If God created all things for his Son and his Son was the channel for that creation to come into being, then we can only assume that Christ existed at this point. As Genesis says: Let us make Man in our image. God was talking to Christ at this point and we know that Christ is the image of God and we are the image of Christ. Therefore the image of the image of God (man) is still the image of God. But Christ is the original and first image and we can only assume again that that image existed before the image of the image. A bit like a mirror that reflects a mirror, the original mirror has to exist in order to reflect the second mirror.

So we know that Christ preexisted before creation and now we will look at some more scriptures that show that he was born before creation itself?

Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

The above verse is quite clear that ALL things were created by or through Jesus.

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So again, there is nothing that was made that didn’t involve Jesus/The Word being there. Only the Father and Son were not made. God has always existed and the Son was born from God before the creation of the universe, before anything was made. The next verse describes clearly who/what was the first of God’s works.

Proverbs 8:22-30
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, {[22] Or ; or } {[22] Or ; or } before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,

This verse is talking about Wisdom, whom many believe is Christ. This scriptures compliments other scriptures that that teach that Jesus was given birth by God and then created all THINGS though him.

So from this verse we can see the following points.

Wisdom was brought forth as the first of Gods works.
Wisdom was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
Wisdom was given birth before creation.
Wisdom was the craftsman at his side and rejoiced in his presence before creation.
Some say that Wisdom isn’t Christ, rather this is just wisdom in a conceptual sense and it is true that wisdom is being spoken of in that way. But from verse 22 onward it changes tempo. With terms like I was given birth, I was the craftsman at his side and I was filled with delight, we have to admit that it seems to be talking about a person. Now have a look at the following verses:

1 Corinthians 1:24 (English-NIV)
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

1 Corinthians 1:30 (English-NIV)
It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God–that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

Let’s look at some other concepts that Jesus personifies:

Jesus is the Truth. Yet truth is also a concept.
Jesus is the Way. Yet the way is also a concept.
Jesus is the Life. Yet life can also be a concept.
Now look at the following mystery:

1 Corinthians 2:6-9
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 No, we speak of God’s secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 However, as it is written:
“No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him”

Ephesians 3:8-10
8 Although I am less than the least of all God’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,

Perhaps another scripture alluding to Jesus being the Wisdom of God.

Finally I leave you with the following OT scripture that suggests that God had a Son before the birth Of Jesus Christ on earth.

Proverbs 30:4
Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 221 through 240 (of 19,165 total)
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  • #56741
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Is 1.19,
    You quote
    Hebrews 3:1-6
    Hebrews 3:1-6
    1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; 2Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. 3For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. 4For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God. 5And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; 6But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

    There are two houses of faith built by Moses and by Christ-the new and the old covenants.

    The builder of both and of all things ultimately is God, by His Spirit.

    Moses taught the words of God and brought the Jewish flock to God.
    He did not build the house for God but was a faithful servant in his appointed duties.
    Christ not only built the new house of faith but also is that house and that house belongs to him.

    He then deserves more glory that the other man Moses.

    No suggestion that Christ is God Himself but rather it is specified that he is son of God, and a High Priest and an apostle of God

    #56759
    Is 1:18
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 27 2007,16:33)
    There are two houses of faith built by Moses and by Christ-the new and the old covenants.


    Moses is not descibed as having “built” a house in the text. That's a key difference that you have overlooked, and it's critical to the idea the writer was pressing. Read it carefully.

    Quote
    The builder of both and of all things ultimately is God, by His Spirit.


    I agree that the ultimate builder of all things is God. That is not in dispute. However, although you dichotomise The Father and Son in respect to Creation, relegating the Son to an impassive instrument, scripture does not. The Hebrews passage does not contrast Jesus from God, it contrasts Jesus from Moses and equates Him with God.

    For this man [Jesus] was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God

    Quote
    Moses taught the words of God and brought the Jewish flock to God.
    He did not build the house for God but was a faithful servant in his appointed duties.
    Christ not only built the new house of faith but also is that house and that house belongs to him.


    “house of faith”? – where is that written?

    #56790
    TimothyVI
    Participant

    Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 27 2007,10:44)

    Quote (TimothyVI @ June 27 2007,00:11)
    Hi Is,


    Hi Tim, how is it?

    Quote
    In the verse that you quoted, the underlined “for a little while” only appears in perhaps two of the many translations. I think the NLT and one other.

    It's rendered that way in a few more tranlations than two:

    NASB
    9But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

    AMP
    9But we are able to see Jesus, Who was ranked lower than the angels for a little while, crowned with glory and honor because of His having suffered death, in order that by the grace (unmerited favor) of God [to us sinners] He might experience death for every individual person.

    ESV
    9But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

    CEV
    9What we do see is Jesus, who for a little while was made lower than the angels. Because of God's wonderful kindness, Jesus died for everyone. And now that Jesus has suffered and died, he is crowned with glory and honor!

    NLV
    9 But we do see Jesus. For a little while He took a place that was not as important as the angels. But God had loving-favor for everyone. He had Jesus suffer death on a cross for all of us. Then, because of Christ's death on a cross, God gave Him the crown of honor and shining-greatness.

    HCSB
    9 But we do see Jesus— made lower than the angels for a short time so that by God's grace He might taste death for everyone—crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death.

    WE
    9But we do see Jesus! For a short time he was lower than the angels. Because he died, we see him made great and high. He did this so that he could die for every person. God is so good!

    TNIV
    9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

    I see this part of the verse as paralleling those of Phil 2:5-8, 2 Cor 8:9. To me the “humbling” was temporal, the word “made” in Heb 2:9, to me, infers that there was a change in status from a place that was higher (than the angels) to one that was lower.

    Who was made a little lower than the angels. – That is, as a man, or when on earth. His assumed rank was inferior to that of the angels. He took upon himself not the nature of angels Hebrews 2:16, but the nature of man. The apostle is probably here answering some implied objections to the rank which it was claimed that the Lord Jesus had, or which might be urged to the views which he was defending. These objections were mainly two. First, that Jesus was a man; and secondly, that he suffered and died. If that was the fact, it was natural to ask how he could be superior to the angels? How could he have had the rank which was claimed for him? This he answers by showing first, that his condition as a man was “voluntarily” assumed – “he was made lower than the angels;” and secondly, by showing that as a consequence of his sufferings and death, he was immediately crowned with glory and honor. This state of humiliation became him in the great work which he had undertaken, and he was immediately exalted to universal dominion, and as Mediator was raised to a rank far above the angels.
    Barnes' Notes – http://bibletools.org/….s

    Thanks for your thoughts.

    :)


    Hi Is 1:18,

    Wow! I didn't even know some of those versions even existed.
    Thanks for the list.

    This one verse shows why there is so much confusion in the bible. And explains why little ol' me is so confused.

    In the KJV, the NKJV, the NIV, the ASV, the YLT, the DBY and the HNV as well as the Greek interlineary, that phrase “for a little while” doesn't even exist.
    Where did those words come from?

    Even if I disregard whether it was for a little while or not,
    the verse is still confusing. Not only to me but apparently to every one of the translators.
    Some make it sound as if Jesus was made a little lower than the angels because He had to suffer death.
    Some make it sound like Jesus was give glory because He suffered death.
    Some make it sound like He was little lower for a little while.
    Some make it sound like He was made a little lower period.

    How can we use any verse that is this missunderstood as a proof of anything?

    Tim :p

    #56791
    TimothyVI
    Participant

    Oh, by the way Is 1:18,

    Thanks for that link to bible tools.
    I didn't have that. I like it.

    Tim

    #56796
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Is 1.18,
    “For every house is builded by some man”

    “but he that built all things is God”

    Men are vessels, tools used by God.

    #56799

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 28 2007,06:48)
    Hi Is 1.18,
    “For every house is builded by some man”

    “but he that built all things is God”

    Men are vessels, tools used by God.


    NH

    Unless of course you are the Word that is God, by whom “All things were made” and who came in the flesh!

    :)

    #56801
    NickHassan
    Participant

    as Hi W,
    You mean the man,
    The Priest of God,
    The Apostle of God

    as mentioned in these particular verses
    in relationship to God Himself?

    #56805

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 28 2007,08:51)
    as Hi W,
    You mean the man,
    The Priest of God,
    The Apostle of God

    as mentioned in these particular verses
    in relationship to God Himself?


    NH

    Remember, there is only “One Being” called God who created all things!

    Look…

    Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

    Isa 45:21
    Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and *there is no God else beside me*; a just God and a Saviour; *there is none beside me*.

    Isa 46:9
    Remember the former things of old: for *I am God, and there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*, ???

    But You say God created all things through a lessor being who you call a “Son of God” that existed as a son before he was born!

    :O

    #56806
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi W,
    Then how can you resolve scripture without adding to it?

    #56822
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 27 2007,07:05)
    Just like Jesus raising himself from the dead and yet the Father raising him from the dead!


    When Peter and Paul talked about the resurrection, they always said that God raised Jesus from the dead! Giving careful, thoughtful, praise and glory to God for raising their Teacher. They were good Jewish – God – fearing – men who gave praise to God (the Father) for giving such power to men on earth.

    Jesus said he had power to take his life back up again, but he goes on to tell us that that (power) was “committed” to him by his Father. Remember that Jesus can do nothing of himself! Nothing! Jesus even gives this honor to God, the Father. We should too!

    #56825
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ June 27 2007,10:02)
    Hi Nick:

    I have looked at all of these scriptures that you have given me relative to many sons of Gods being with God in the beginning but these scriptures do not attest to that at all.  Also, there is one other scripture relative to a son of God that you did not mention, and so I will quote it below:

    Luke 3:38
    Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God. (Adam was a son of God)

    Gen 6:1 When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose.(I understand these sons of God to be the lineage of Seth)

    Job 1 On another day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them to present himself before him. (NIV says angels not sons of God)

    Job 38:5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? 6 On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone– 7 while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy? (Again NIV says angels, and not sons of God)

    Psalm 82:6 “I said, 'You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.' 7 But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler.” 8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth, for all the nations are your inheritance. (they were called sons of God to whom the word of God was spoken)

    Psalm 89:24 My faithful love will be with him, and through my name his horn will be exalted. 25 I will set his hand over the sea, his right hand over the rivers. 26 He will call out to me, 'You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Savior.' 27 I will also appoint him my firstborn, the most exalted of the kings of the earth. (This may refer to Jesus, but is prophetic.)

    And then you say:

    Quote
    The image of God was of divine nature, a spirit being alike to God.

    Where is this written?

    And besides all of this the scripture states that Jesus is the Only begotten Son of God.  There is only one event in the scripture which relates to this event.

    God Bless


    Amen, 94, AMEN! I'm doing an “Amen jig” to what you have said.

    There is only “one event” that speaks to Jesus becoming the “only begotten Son” and that is the conception and birth of Jesus.

    All other scriptures that speak of Jesus are in the prophetic. The burden of proof, as I see it, is on those who say Jesus preexisted.

    #56826
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 27 2007,10:55)
    Scrpiture say that “all things” came by/through Jesus (John 1:3, Col 1:16), therefore it's quite natural to assume that He is uncreated.


    Isaiah,

    You are a good teacher. Tell me why I cannot believe that all things came through Jesus and that means *through the plan or will of Jesus*? Why do we have to “assume” that he is uncreated?

    #56828
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 27 2007,15:25)
    To me John 1:3, Col 1:16 and Heb 1:2 show that the prehuman Jesus was involved in Creation,


    But HOW was he involved?

    #56829
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi not3,
    Those who accept trinity cannot align this God with the OT.
    They must say the God of the NT supercedes the revelation of God in the OT.
    They must actually reject the OT in favour of the NT yet a good storeman uses both.
    They say they see glimpses of their god in the OT but can never find anything written about such a being.
    As you show this god is a new and strange unbiblical god.
    We should abhor such teaching about new gods.
    WE have a true God.
    His son told us.

    #56830
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 27 2007,15:25)
    In the context of the Chapter it unequivocally shows that Yeshua was the literal Creator, HE laid the foundations of the Earth, the Heavens are the works of HIS hands.


    Sorry, I asked my question too soon before I read all of your post! You answered it here in the quote above.

    Wow. I'm a bit speechless, brother……..

    As a Trinitarian, are you saying that “God” laid the foundations with “his own hand” and that that hand was the hand of Jesus?

    I'm kinda scared to get the answer to this question….

    #56831
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi 94,
    God is a spirit being of soul and spirit.

    4The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD's throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.

    5The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

    Christ is the image of God, and the firstborn of every creature.

    Col1
    ” 15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:” .

    #56832
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Is 1.18,
    You say
    “In the context of the Chapter it unequivocally shows that Yeshua was the literal Creator, HE laid the foundations of the Earth, the Heavens are the works of HIS hands.”

    Creators create.
    Builders lay created foundations.

    #56833
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 28 2007,15:37)
    They say they see glimpses of their god in the OT but can never find anything written about such a being.


    Well, I certainly have not found anything about this Trinity God in the OT – and God knows I've tried. Oh! Have I tried and tried….over tears…..over fasting……over beer! Ha! Everything, and yet nothing.

    Only this – there is One God – the Father – and one Lord – Jesus Christ.

    #56841

    Quote (Not3in1 @ June 28 2007,15:27)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 27 2007,07:05)
    Just like Jesus raising himself from the dead and yet the Father raising him from the dead!


    When Peter and Paul talked about the resurrection, they always said that God raised Jesus from the dead!  Giving careful, thoughtful, praise and glory to God for raising their Teacher.  They were good Jewish – God – fearing – men who gave praise to God (the Father) for giving such power to men on earth.

    Jesus said he had power to take his life back up again, but he goes on to tell us that that (power) was “committed” to him by his Father.  Remember that Jesus can do nothing of himself!  Nothing!  Jesus even gives this honor to God, the Father.  We should too!


    not3

    You say…

    Quote

    Jesus said he had power to take his life back up again, but he goes on to tell us that that (power) was “committed” to him by his Father.

    Not quite. Jesus in this incident didnt say that “The power” was committed to him.

    The power was already his.

    Jn 10:18
    No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

    This passage aligns beautifully with Phil. 2 and John 1:1,14 Jesus came down form heaven, leaving the glory he shared with the Father to take on the likeness of sinfull flesh.

    He came to “do the will” of the Father!

    Not3 can you name a being that had the power or could claim to raise himself from the dead?

    Would this not be a contradiction to the disciples own words if Jesus was not the Word/God in the flesh, the Lord from heaven.

    One God.

    Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

    You see the scriptures also claim that the Spirit of God raised Jesus.

    And we know who that Spirit is dont we?

    ???

    #56842
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi W,
    Is this the ONE Spirit of God or the person called the Spirit?

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