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The man who was given visions of the end from the beginning

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  • December 27, 2001 at 4:02 pm#4196
    thehappyman
    Participant

    question : why wasn’t this book "Enoch" included within the "King James Bible"

    February 9, 2002 at 10:11 pm#4197
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Can anyone add to this.
    Historical references would be helpful.

    February 21, 2002 at 4:49 pm#4192
    Daniel
    Participant

    I belive that  Enoch was excluded from both the Jewish and Christian canons because is pseudepigrapha — ascribed to a writer who did not write it.  The Aramaic language used would  indicate an authorship sometime in the 2nd or 3rd century B.C.   Virtually all the books considered over time to be apocryphal (by both Catholics and Protestants) can be expected to contain at least some truth in them. And they may even have some accurate historical accounts of Jesus or the disciples that did not make it into the canon. There are many parallels and similarities between canon and the pseudepigraphical books, but these books were generally rejected because of obvious flaws of one kind or another in doctrine or content that are apparent to virtually all Christian readers who have studied them. They are worth reading and studying, but they are not considered by the Christian community as a whole to be "the infallible word of God".  

    I would say that Enoch is worth a read but only after you have steeped yourself in God’s word.  That will give you the "taste of the true" to allow you to separate that with is congruent with God’s word with that which isn’t.  It is interesting that when the F.B.I. trains bank personnel to recognize counterfeit money, they never actually see or handle counterfeit money — just the real thing.

    Hope this helps!

    Dan

    February 22, 2002 at 2:24 am#4198
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Please point out the obvious flaws in doctrine or content in the Book of Enoch. This will back up the judgement that you have made with this book.
    I am very open minded and teachable.

    February 22, 2002 at 4:41 pm#4193
    Daniel
    Participant

    T8, very cool that you are interested and want to know the detail of the facts.

    Let me say that the early church father’s who determined what is “scripture” and what is not determined that The Book of Enoch’s discrepancy was:

    The new testament states:
    (Jude 14-15 appears to be a quote from 1 Enoch, which is also known as the Apocalypse of Enoch-
    1 Enoch 1:9 And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones to execute judgment upon all, and to destroy all the ungodly; and to convict all flesh of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, and of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.
    Jude 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
    Jude 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

    First, it should be noted that Jude is quoting Enoch himself, not from a book of Enoch. Second, there is apparently some question as to the exact dating of both Jude and 1 Enoch. Jude is by a single author, and is estimated by scholars to have been written from the mid to later half of the 1st century, while 1 Enoch was apparently written by several authors over a time period from about 200 B.C. to about the middle of the first century.

    Since this does seem to allow for at least the possibility that 1 Enoch is actually quoting Jude, it was considered banished from the scriptures.

    Right or wrong about the judgement, it gives the possibility that 1 Enoch is actually quoting Jude.

    Hope this helps,

    Dan

    June 4, 2002 at 6:14 am#4199
    LodeRunner
    Participant

    The biggest argument against the "Book of Enoch" being actually true scripture is the language it is written in and the date it was located. Given that it was writtend in Aramaic, and found c. AD 200, when Enoch lived somewhere between 3000 and 4000 BC, the language it was written in testifies that it was not written by Enoch. Therefore the possiblity that it could be scripture was refuted in the face of the anacronism of the modern language used to write such an assumadely old book.

    June 10, 2002 at 8:23 pm#4194
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    You say that we should reject this book because it is written in a language younger than the period in which Enoch lived. Given this wisdom, would we not have to reject the bible as unauthentic?
    I think that it is understandable that the Book of Enoch would have to be translated or copied many times as the books in the bible have been. Paper wouldnt last that long. Also I saw a documentary on the Dead Sea Scrolls and they mentioned they found about 8 copies of the Book of Enoch. Does anyone know anything about this. Language, age etc.

    June 10, 2002 at 8:47 pm#4200
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Daniel

    Thanx for your post and your reasons for the Book of Enoch not being authentic.

    Your quote "First, it should be noted that Jude is quoting Enoch himself, not from a book of Enoch".

    The only 2 options as I see it is that Jude is quoting either an oral or written record. Oral records are very unreliable and are usually exagerated over time to become legends. When the biblical writers are quoting Enoch, I find it difficult to believe that they were quoting an oral record, although I admit it is possible. But that oral record would have to have remained intact for thousands of years, hard to believe that Jude the brother of James would quote an oral record thousands of years old. I do not know of any other scripture that is quoted from an ancient oral record, but the New Testament quotes many times from old written records, Old Testament books. At least that is the pattern for the New Testament.

    You say that scholars say that the book is between 200 B.C. to about the middle of the first century.
    Do you know why scholars say this. I cannot accept this without some proof, especially considering that it cannot be proven that some of the biblical authors didnt quote the Book of Enoch.

    Scientists and Scholars have their reasons, but they are often proven wrong as well.

    Anymore info would be great.

    Thanx for your input.

    June 11, 2002 at 7:00 am#4201
    LodeRunner
    Participant

    I simply used the information presented by Daniel to construct a logical hypothesis:

    1. The book is claimed by some to have been written by Enoch, but it is aproxiamtely dated between the 2nd century BC and the first century AD. <–Conflicting times: Enoch lived very near to Adam, working from genologues in Genesis, we can guess that Enoch was born between 4004 and 3000 B.C. (generally accepted within most churches is that creation took place aproximately 4004 B.C. as worked out by one of the early church fathers, will provide name and date when I return from Europe.).

    2. The book is written in Greek. The only Old Testament scriptures recorded in Greek (Aramaic <sp?>) are Ezra and the chapter in the Book of Daniel written by Nebuchadnezzar. <–Again, conflicting times/language anachronism: whereas all OT scriptures recovered and recorded pre-NT are in Hebrew, the Apocryphal books and this book of Enoch are in a somewhat contemporary language.

    Therefore I conclude on these two reasons that it is correctly excluded from the accepted cannon of Scripture. Of course, I want to see the actual text (translated to English, please 😛 ) just to see. The syntax is usually the give away. The biggest differentiation between OT and NT is the change in Syntax, partly due to the change in language, but also partly due to time. If the book of Enoch uses phrases contemporary with the NT or with the Apocrypha, and phrases that are not found in the OT, then again, it is logical to conclude that it was written much later. And just as scholars can be wrong, so can documentaries (especially PBS and Discovery channel documentaries related to Biblical things, because they assume that evolution is correct and automatically assume that God doesn’t exist, so they treat all Biblical record as a fairy tale until they can prove it to their liking. Ah, the human mind, how it so wants to play God.)

    May 19, 2003 at 5:16 am#4195
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    I saw this from another web site and thought I would include it.

    By Bill Moore

    Until Laurence published his English translation of 1 Enoch in 1821, hardly anyone had ever heard of the Book of Enoch. Today, little has changed. Many have heard of 1 Enoch, but not too many have read it (even among those who are preparing for the ministry). Part of the problem is purely logistical: Bible bookstores do not stock copies of 1 Enoch; translations with critical notes are expensive; and many Christians do not know where to order a copy. But the real problem has to do with a lack of interest. What can be gained from studying 1 Enoch has not been adequately communicated, even among those who stress the importance of reconstructing the life and times of Jesus (i.e. the First Century A.D.). Indeed, there was hardly anyone who had not read 1 Enoch at the time of Christ. This alone should be reason enough to want to study it, even if we accept the classification that Christendom has seen fit to give it: Pseudepigrapha, a term used to describe a writing that claims to be written by someone other than its real author. Such was the practice among those who wished to make public what they believed to be new revelation (so it is theorized) after the Old Testament had been “officially” canonized. The Encyclopedic Dictionary of Judaica has this to say about such books:

    “Pseudepigraphical books … are not accepted in their entirety by any church, only individual books being considered sacred by the Eastern churches, particularly the Ethiopian. The most important are the Books of Enoch, Jubilees, the Ascension of Isaiah, the Assumption of Moses, the Book of Adam and Eve, the Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs.”1.

    1. Wigoder, Geoffrey, ed. Encyclopedic Dictionary of Judaica, “Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha,” Leon Amiel Publisher: New York, 1974, p. 35.

    Regardless how the book of Enoch is classified, the real issue is what influence it had upon those who wrote the New Testament. That it helped shape their expectation of the Messiah’s triumph at the end of the “last days” of the Judean economy is strongly suggested. To what extent 1 Enoch helps us to better understand the New Testament, will determine its value.

    For the benefit of those who have not yet read 1 Enoch, a brief description of the text seems apropos considering that 1 Enoch’s 108 chapters might lead one to think that it is a much larger volume than it is — actually about 1100 verses divided into five sections (or books). That 1 Enoch was written at least one-hundred years before Christ seems indicated (among other things) by numerous references to it contained in the Book of Jubilees. For example:

    For thus I have found it written in the books of my forefathers, and in the words of Enoch, and in the words of Noah. (Jub 21.10)

    While certain parts of 1 Enoch, such as “The Book of the Heavenly Luminaries,” can be traced to Chasidic origin in the 2nd Century B.C., most Bible scholars admit that certain parts narrated by Enoch and Noah could have been written much earlier. While fragments indicating a Semitic original have turned up at Qumran, modern translations are based on the several dozen Greek, Latin, and Ethiopic copies discovered at various locations during the last two centuries. By identifying a number of corrupted passages and suspected interpolations, textual critics have made considerable progress in determining what might be called a fairly reliable text. As is the case with the New Testament, no major teaching of the book is seriously affected by any of these “textual variants.”

    Regarding contents, 1 Enoch includes a somewhat fragmented mixture of narrative descriptions, dream visions, celestial journeyings, parables, apocalyptic warnings, allegories of religious history, pronouncements of woe, and diverse exhortations, all of which may be related to the book’s dominant theme: the final judgment of the ungodly at the consummation of the age, at which time the righteous receive their reward.

    One has only to read a little beyond the first five chapters to realize that 1 Enoch expands on the account in Genesis concerning the “sons of God” who lusted after the daughters of men (Gen. 6.1ff). According to 1 Enoch, these were angels (or Watchers), two-hundred of them (6.6). Their leaders (19 in all) are listed by name. That these angels took many wives is only part of the reason for their condemnation. The other part has to do with their teachings — through which the entire race of men became corrupted:

    Semjaza taught enchantments, Armaros the resolving of enchantments, Baraqijal astrology, Kokabel the constellations…. (1 Enoch 8.3)

    While Semjaza is mentioned as being over all the other angels, he is in no wise to be considered the worst of the lot. The angel named Azazel earns that distinction for teaching men to make instruments of warfare and for teaching women the art of jewelry-making and “the beautifying of the eyelids” (8.1-2). Furthermore, “Azazel … taught all unrighteousness on earth and revealed the eternal secrets which were preserved in heaven” (9.6). Thus, “to him ascribe all sin” (10.9). Azazel is therefore first to be bound hand and foot, and cast into darkness for the duration of “seventy generations,” at which time “the judgment which is forever and ever is consummated” (10.4,6,12-13). But all the righteous would be delivered. What then follows is a very sensuous picture of Messianic bliss (10.17-22), the same kind of “prophetic idealism” that often appears in other Old Testament writings.

    Further descriptions of the final judgment, the punishment of the angels, and the rewards of the righteous, are repeated numerous times throughout the remaining chapters, including many chapters which focus upon the coming of the Messiah and the resurrection of the dead. Hence, “be hopeful ye that have died in righteousness” (102.4). For “I know a mystery,” says Enoch, “the spirits of you that have died in righteousness shall live” (103.2,4).

    Enoch’s relationship to the angels that sinned is that of a messenger (cf. Hermes in Greek mythology). Sent by God to the angels who had already been cast into darkness, Enoch is told to preach unto these imprisoned spirits their doom. He also is required to send their petition to heaven where it is denied (12.3-14.6). Enoch is also given to see all that is contained in the holy books (91.2; 103.2; 106.19), about which he is instructed to teach to his son (Methuselah) and also to write everything that had been revealed to him in a book, a book addressed to a righteous generation that should rise up in the last days, prior to the consummation of the age (82.1; 38.1).

    1 Enoch also expands on the giants, or “men of renown,” spoken of in Genesis 6. These are the offspring of the angels. While the giants are destroyed by the flood, evil spirits proceeding from their bodies are permitted to have free rein over the surface of the earth until the final judgment, at which time they would be destroyed along with the angels (15.7-16.2). It is also worth mentioning the numerous woes pronounced against the wicked who were to be overthrown on the great day of judgment. The long woe section (94.6-103.15) provides a detailed description of the wicked, characteristics by which they could be easily identified by the righteous who would be living at the time of the end: among them John, Paul, Peter, James, and Jude.

    These men appear to have been quite familiar with 1 Enoch. Indeed, nothing in the New Testament would indicate that they ever questioned its genuineness or its integrity. But regardless of what anyone might think about the canonicity of 1 Enoch, the fact remains that at least one New Testament writer (Jude) regarded it as Scripture. If he did not, we have to ask why he quoted an entire passage from it saying that “Enoch” said these things:

    And to these also Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of his holy ones, to ex
    ecute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their works of ungodliness which they have ungodly wrought, and of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 14-15)

    Compare the above with the text from 1 Enoch:

    And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones to execute judgment upon all, and to destroy all the ungodly; and to convict all flesh of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, and of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him. (1 Enoch 1.9)

    According to Jude, there were “certain men crept in privily … who were of old, written of beforehand unto this condemnation” (Jude 4). Written of beforehand? Who wrote about their condemnation beforehand? According to Jude, Enoch did. In other words, Jude is saying that Enoch wrote about an event that was to take place, not in his own time, but in Jude’s time, the time of the New Testament. In fact, that is how 1 Enoch begins, with God opening Enoch’s eyes, enabling him to see what should befall the elect, “not for this generation,” Enoch is told by an angel, “but for a remote one which is to come” (1 Enoch 1.2), at which time “there shall be a judgment upon all men” (1.7).

    According to 1 Enoch 10.12, this judgment was to occur “seventy generations” from Enoch, during which time the angels who sinned were to be kept in bonds “until the day of the consummation, the great judgment in which the age shall be consummated” (16.1-2). It should be noted that according to Luke (who claims to have “traced the course of all things accurately from the first” in Luke 1.1-4), there are exactly seventy generations from the generation of Enoch to the generation of Jesus Christ (Luke 3.23-37). In other words, it would not have been presumptuous for Jude to claim that 1 Enoch addressed the concerns of the Christians to whom he wrote. The generation of Jesus Christ had not yet passed away.

    From a preterist perspective, 1 Enoch adds considerable weight to the many passages in the New Testament which clearly indicate that the consummation of the age together with Christ’s second coming took place in A.D. 70 (in the destruction of Jerusalem). This being the case, it should not surprise us to learn that 1 Enoch was banned by Hilary, Jerome, and Augustine and was subsequently lost to Western Christendom for over a thousand years. In short, it was suppressed. Why? Because it could not be made to fit their idea that Christ’s coming had not yet been fulfilled. 1 Enoch’s “seventy generations” was too problematic. It could not be made to stretch beyond the First Century. Copies of 1 Enoch soon disappeared, and were it not for the fact that a number of copies have since been discovered and translated, we would have no knowledge of 1 Enoch outside of the references made to it in the Book of Jubilees, the Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs, and in the writings of the Apostolic Fathers (many of whom regarded 1 Enoch as Scripture: i.e. Barnabas, Athenagoras, Clement of Alexandria, Irenaeus, and Tertullian).

    That Jude regarded 1 Enoch as Scripture can hardly be doubted, not simply because he quotes from it, but also because he makes no distinction between 1 Enoch and other Scriptures. “Now I desire to put you in remembrance,” Jude writes, after which he alludes to two events recorded in the Old Testament and one recorded in 1 Enoch:

    …the Lord, having saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. And angels that kept not their own principality, but left their proper habitation, he hath kept in everlasting bonds under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them…in like manner…are set forth as examples…. (Jude 5-7)

    That Jude would tell his Christian readers to remember something recorded in 1 Enoch is significant. First of all, it indicates that Christians were familiar with 1 Enoch; second, it shows that Christians regarded the contents of 1 Enoch as historically reliable. In other words, it cannot be consistently maintained that Jude’s believing 1 Enoch to be authoritative was an isolated case among the first century Christians.

    Others believed it as well, for instance, Peter (as his reference to events outside the official OT/NT canon shows):

    For if God spared not the angels when they sinned, but cast them down into ####, and committed them to pits of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment. (2 Peter 2.4)

    To what extent other New Testament writers regarded 1 Enoch as Scripture may be determined by comparing their writings with those found in 1 Enoch. A strong possibility of influence upon their thought and diction is evidenced by a great many references found in 1 Enoch which remind one of passages found in the New Testament. The procedure for identifying these closely associated parallels is no different from that used to count the four-hundred allusions to the Old Testament in the book of Revelation.

    In closing, we will list a few of the more significant statements in 1 Enoch which have close parallels in the New Testament writings. We believe these need much closer examination in the interests of not only seeing the intertestamental background of the New Testament writings, but to help understand the preterist view as well.

    1.9    
    Quoted by Jude (see above).

    10.7    
    “the healing of the earth” (cf. Rom. 8:18-21).

    12.1
    “the great glory sat…more brightly than the sun…no flesh could behold him” (cf. 1 Tim. 6:16).

    12-14    
    Enoch preaches to the spirits in prison that waited in the days of Noah (cf. 1 Pet. 3:18-20).

    15.7    
    Angels not marrying or being given in marriage (cf. Lk. 20.35).

    16.1-2    
    Evil spirits permitted to destroy until the consummation of the age (cf. Mat. 8:29).

    19.3
    “the end of all things” (cf. 1 Pet. 4:7).

    22.7
    Souls crying out for judgment (cf. Rev. 6:9-10).

    25.3-5
    Description of the tree of life restored (cf. Rev. 22:1ff).

    38.2
    The appearance of “the Righteous One” is linked to the appearance of the “light” (cf. John 1).

    38.4
    “those that possess the earth shall no longer be powerful and exalted” (cf. 1 Cor. 2:6).

    38.4
    “For the Lord of Spirits has caused His light to appear on the face of the holy, righteous, and elect” (cf. 2 Cor. 3:18ff).

    41.2
    “mansions of the elect” (cf. John 14:2).

    46.3
    “This is the Son of Man…who revealeth all the treasures of that which is hidden” (cf. Col. 2:3; John 4).

    48-51
    Numerous New Testament echoes:

    48.4
    “Light of the Gentiles”;

    48.3    
    “those who have fallen asleep in righteousness”;

    48.4
    “he shall judge the secret things”;

    48.5
    “All…shall fall down and worship him”;

    48.6    
    “chosen hidden before Him before the creation of the world”;

    48.6    
    “in his name they are saved…according to his good pleasure”;

    50.3a    
    “through his name shall they be saved”;

    50.3b    
    “all the secrets of wisdom and counsel… the Lord of Spirits hath given to him”.

    56.5-8
    “in those days the angels shall return…shall stir up the kings…shall go up and tread under foot the land of His elect ones…shall be swallowed up” (cf. Rev. 20).

    58.5
    “And after this it shall be said to the holy in heaven that they should seek out the secrets of righteousness, the heritage of faith. For it has become bright as sun upon earth and darkness is past” (cf. Eph. 3:10; 1 Pet. 1:12; Rom. 13:12).

    62.2
    “the word of his mouth slays all the sinners” (cf. Rev. 19:15).

    62.4
    “as on a woman in travail” (cf. Mark 13:8).

    62.5
    “when they see the Son of Man sitting on the throne of his glory” (Mt. 25:31).

    62.5-11
    The Lord will execute vengeance upon “those who rule the world”
    (1 Cor. 2:6).

    62.12
    “wrath of the Lord of Spirits resteth upon them, and His sword is drunk with their blood” (cf. Revelation).

    62.13-16
    “The righteous and elect shall be saved on that day…and with that Son of Man shall they eat…shall have risen from the earth…clothed with garments of glory…and…shall not grow old” (cf. Mt. 26:29; 1 Thess. 4:17; 2 Cor. 5:1-2).

    71.5
    Translated into heaven, Enoch sees “a structure built of crystals and…tongues of living fire” (Rev. 21:11; Acts 2:3-4).

    71.15
    “the world to come” (cf. Heb. 2:5).

    71.16
    “they shall not be separated from him forever and ever and ever” (cf. Rom. 8:35ff).

    90.26-27
    The fate of the sinners: to be thrown into Gehenna — “this abyss was to the right of that house” (cf. Mt. 23:33).

    90.29
    The Lord of the sheep brings “a new house greater and loftier than the first” (cf. Heb. 3:6; 13:14).

    91.3-4
    The “double heart” (cf. Jas. 1:8).

    91.7
    The increase of sin and violence comes prior to the Lord’s coming in judgment (cf. Luke 21:9; 2 Thess. 2:3).

    91.10
    “And all the righteous shall arise from their sleep” (cf. 1 Thess. 4:15).

    93.1-16
    The “Apocalypse of Weeks” depicts the rise of “an apostate generation” and its destruction, after which a “new heaven” appears (cf. Mt. 23:36; 2 Pet. 3:13).

    94.8-9
    “Woe to you ye rich, for ye have trusted in your riches….Ye have committed blasphemy and unrighteousness and have become ready for the day of slaughter and the day of darkness and the day of great judgment” (cf. Jas. 5:1ff).

    95.4-7
    “Woe to you …” (cf. Matt. 23).

    96:1
    “suddenly shall the sinners perish before you” (cf. 1 Thess. 5:1-3)

    99.2
    “they shall be trodden under foot” (cf. Rom. 16:20).

    100.3
    “horse shall walk up to the breast in the blood of sinners” (cf. Rev. 14:20).

    100.5
    “though the righteous sleep a long sleep, they have nought to fear” (cf. 1 Thess. 4:13ff).

    100:9
    “In blazing flames burning worse than fire shall ye burn” (cf. 2 Thess. 1:7; Heb. 10:27; 12:18, 29; Rev. 18:8; 20:9)

    103.8
    “the great judgment shall be for all the generations of the world” (cf. Mt. 23:32ff).

    104.1
    “in heaven the angels remember you for good before the glory of the Great One” (cf. Mt. 18:10); “ye shall shine as the lights of heaven” (cf. Phil. 2:15); “cast not away your hope” (cf. Heb. 10:23ff).

    105.2
    “For I and My Son will be united with them forever” (cf. John 14:23).

    107.1
    “generation upon generation shall transgress till a generation of righteousness arises” (cf. Acts 2).

    108.2
    “in the last days” (cf. 1 Tim. 4:1; 2 Tim. 3:1; Heb. 1:2).

    108.7
    “written…that the angels may read them” (cf. Eph. 3:10; 1 Pet. 1:12).

    108.11-13
    “I will transform those who were born in darkness….And I will bring forth in shining light those who have loved my holy name, and I will seat each on the throne of my honor” (cf. 1 Cor. 15:51; Eph. 2:6; Col. 1:13; Mt. 19:28).

    Click here to read the book of Enoch.

    May 4, 2004 at 11:59 pm#4202
    MichaelTheeArchAngel
    Participant

    The book of Enoch was written about 167BC by a unknown prophet. It was oreginally written in hebrew and was found in the dead sea scrolls. It was used by both Jews and Christians until about 700AD. The book of Enoch literally says that it is a parable, so there is no deception. The Catholic church determined that the book of Enoch was to reveiling and it should no longer be used. There are some corruptions in the text, but they have been marked as such.

    May 7, 2004 at 3:01 am#4203
    ringo111
    Participant

    This book, seems to contain many right sayings about GoD's justice on ungodly people, It was written after the other books in the bible. But apart from that seems to be the spawn of insanity, contrary to scripture in many regards.
    As it seems , the book is based from an older manuscript, but the rest seems to be muddled insanity.

    Someone pointed out that angels, Do Not Marry!! Nor are given in marrage. Do not marry means just that!! A “fallen angel” is still an angel!! and Jesus said they do not Marry.

    Someone said Demons arnt angels, But Satan is?? It does not say that in the bible, that is a made up belief, and Even If Satan were an angel, then why wouldnt he be shagging people now??

    Cant you see this is a trick from satan!!!?!?!!

    Satan wants people to think that he can make women pregnant so some women at some stage in our human history, will freak out and kill they're babies cause they think they are demons.

    I read Enoch a while ago, I'd have to re-read it to point out other obvious flaws.

    May 7, 2004 at 12:13 pm#4204
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    ringo111,

    How do you explain the following biblical verses.

    Jude 14-15
    “In the seventh (generation) from Adam Enoch also prophesied these things, saying: 'Behold, the Lord came with his holy myriads, to execute judgment on all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners spoke against him'.”

    How did Jude know that Enoch prophecied this, if it is not in any other biblical book, but is in the Book of Enoch?

    You then say that “Someone pointed out that angels, Do Not Marry!! Nor are given in marrage”.

    But if Jesus is liking us to Angels who do not marry, then surely he is referring to the Elect Angels as his reference was to his elect on earth. I am sure he wasn't likening his elect to the fallen angels. If Angels did marry and have offspring, then they abandoned their former positions and did things that they were not suppose to. Of course we know that Fallen Angels rebelled against God in many ways and taking wives from men appears to be one of their sins.

    Genesis 6:1-8
    1 When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them,
    2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose.
    3 Then the LORD said, “My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days will be a hundred and twenty years.”
    4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days-and also afterward-when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.
    5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.
    6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain.
    7 So the LORD said, “I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth-men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air-for I am grieved that I have made them.”
    8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.      

    So how do you explain this verse?

    May 10, 2004 at 5:14 pm#4205
    Anonymous
    Guest

    The words (messenger-s of God) is translated, angel. People here on earth are also called sons of God. When viewing a parable dont be to literal.

    May 14, 2004 at 1:33 am#4206
    ringo111
    Participant

    Quote

    ringo111,

    How do you explain the following biblical verses.

    Jude 14-15
    “In the seventh (generation) from Adam Enoch also prophesied these things, saying: 'Behold, the Lord came with his holy myriads, to execute judgment on all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners spoke against him'.”

    How did Jude know that Enoch prophecied this, if it is not in any other biblical book, but is in the Book of Enoch?

    Simple, someone could have rewritten the book of Enoch, taking true parts and mixing it with many lies. Making sure that the included the writings of bible writers.

    Thats why i said , many of it seems true about GoD the Justice on ungodly people, But the rest seems to have been made up.

    Quote

    You then say that “Someone pointed out that angels, Do Not Marry!! Nor are given in marrage”.

    But if Jesus is liking us to Angels who do not marry, then surely he is referring to the Elect Angels as his reference was to his elect on earth. I am sure he wasn't likening his elect to the fallen angels. If Angels did marry and have offspring, then they abandoned their former positions and did things that they were not suppose to. Of course we know that Fallen Angels rebelled against God in many ways and taking wives from men appears to be one of their sins.

    Matthew 22
    30At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

    Luke 20
    34Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35But those who are considered worthy of taking part in that age and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection.

    Hmm, Yes, I see. Matt 22 suggests that It may only be angels in heaven that are given in marriage.

    Luke 20 states that angels in general will not be maried or given in marriage.

    I put to you this! GoD made man First, But did he make the anatomy for reproduction first before he made Eve. GoD made Man and Woman to gain in number by repoduction. But is not the only way people are made, John the baptist said, god could raise children out of the rocks for abraham(like he did Adam) Seen as GoD does not make angels in heaven to repoduce in this fashon, It would seem that GoD did not give angels the parts to reproduce.
    But maybe angels were another race b4 they were angels, and did reproduce, Or maybe GoD made them with that part but not to use it.
    This just opens up alot of questions, not many answers. Apart from,
    *We will not be married or given in marriage.
    *Angels in heaven are not permitted to either (not knowing if they even have the parts or not)
    *Angels dont die.

    Ok, an interesting thing about what the writter of jude writes, Im not sure if its in what we are calling “the book of enoch” Angels that SiN, are held in Everlasting chains Untill Judgment day. That means that Satan Cannot be an angel, neither the demons, ^_^

    And could make the story in “enoch” more plausable that angels of heaven had sex and offspring with human women. The reason why satan isnt doing it Because he cant- and wouldnt be in the position he is if he was once an angels, because he'd be bound with everlasting chains.

    But then, thats not the end of that line of thinking, Because then someone could say, Satan may be bound to the earth and heaven.

    Arg, too many posibilities! I dont think we're given enough information about all these things! Were just given enough info to live a godly life in Jesus example.

    Quote

    Genesis 6:1-8
    1 When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them,
    2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose.
    3 Then the LORD said, “My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days will be a hundred and twenty years.”
    4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days-and also afterward-when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.
    5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.
    6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain.
    7 So the LORD said, “I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth-men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air-for I am grieved that I have made them.”
    8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

    So how do you explain this verse?

    Sons of GoD, could be men, or other beings, It may be suggesting other beings, But then GoDs punishment, and reason as to why he will destroy the inhabitance of the earth is because of Men. So yes as far as I can see, It is plausable using this scripture, But indecisive.

    Jesus said GoD called People 'Sons Of GoD'

    Michael Had a good point, It seems, a scholarly view on this particular wording 'SonS of GoD' would be good to account for.

    Quote

    MichaelTheeArchAngel
    The words (messenger-s of God) is translated, angel. People here on earth are also called sons of God. When viewing a parable dont be to literal.

    I dont understand, why say 'dont be to literal' ?? You are saying literally , 'son of GoD' means man. Jesus also says that men are Sons Of GoD.

    Conclusion- The evidence leans more toward 'Sons Of GoD' is talking about men. And very slim evidence to suggest, 'sons of God' were angels.

    May 14, 2004 at 6:15 am#4207
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Angels often appear as men when they come to this world.

    Hebrews 13:2
    Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it.

    Perhaps they have the ability to take on a human body, in similar fashion that men wear a space suits in space. Perhaps a human body is needed in order to operate as a physical being in this realm. Otherwise you would just walk through walls and emanate light if you were not subject to physical laws such as electromagnetism.

    Also descriptions of angels in heaven describe creatures of heavenly splendour and on the earth they are often described like men. So there is a difference in description related to what realm they are operating in.

    Luke 24:4
    While they were perplexed about this, behold, two men suddenly stood near them in dazzling clothing;

    John 20:12
    and she saw two angels in white sitting, one at the head and one at the feet, where the body of Jesus had been lying.

    Same with Jesus who had an ordinary human body and a spirtual body when he rose from the dead, or a human body with a spirtual dimension that wasn't in subjection to physical law. On earth he appears like any other man, but in Heaven he is emanating God's glory.

    So perhaps these fallen angels were able to take on human form. I am not sure either way.

    I think the real question here is “Who are the Nephilim”?

    Genesis 6:4  
    The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward,

    May 14, 2004 at 4:11 pm#4208
    ringo111
    Participant

    Well, I know ppl that have seen winged angels. So yeah- I think they either appear as men to our eyes, but theyre true form has wings- Or that some Have wings & Some dont.

    ^_^

    But as long as we egknoledge GoD has angels, it doesnt matter if we think they have wings or not. ^^;;

    I guess you dont even need to egknowledge angels exist. Allthough that would be strange to believe that.

    May 17, 2004 at 4:49 pm#4209
    Anonymous
    Guest

    The prophets in the bible saw angels with wings only in dreams or visions, and used the word wings parabolically. If a person sees a person with wings than their having a dreamvision. People do not literally have wings. God said let us make man in our image.

    May 18, 2004 at 6:29 am#4210
    ringo111
    Participant

    Why on earth would someone see somthing that isnt there???
    Why would god make ppl see wings on angels if they dont exist on angels – vision or no vision they are still there.

    In tha bible If something is ment to be a metaphore then it says that it is a metaphore- at least somewhere in the book- So those are the two posibilities-

    If you say that wings are just nothing, even if you see them- Thats just plain ignorant. But its not only people in visions- People in real life- real time- not in vision state.

    As for people with wings??? Where does it ever say ppl have wings???

    I still conclude that it is not necissary to believe this- Angels are sent quikly no-matter how the transport. Or appearance.

    May 19, 2004 at 4:17 pm#4211
    MichaelTheeArchAngel
    Participant

    Quote (ringo111 @ May 18 2004,01:29)
    Why on earth would someone see somthing that isnt there???
    Why would god make ppl see wings on angels if they dont exist on angels – vision or no vision they are still there.

    In tha bible If something is ment to be a metaphore then it says that it is a metaphore- at least somewhere in the book- So those are the two posibilities-

    If you say that wings are just nothing, even if you see them- Thats just plain ignorant. But its not only people in visions- People in real life- real time- not in vision state.

    As for people with wings??? Where does it ever say ppl have wings???

    I still conclude that it is not necissary to believe this- Angels are sent quikly no-matter how the transport. Or appearance.


    Your being to literal, perhaps you should look up the word (PARABLE). Many christians imagen vain things about what scripture says. A parable is like solving a riddle it requires a spirit of discernment. In dreams and parables and visions both the literal and parabolic apply, and a person needs to be able to discern the difference.

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