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The Holy Spirit is the spirit of the Father

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Glory of God

The Trinity Doctrine is so preposterous that it contradicts the most basic and simple truths in scripture and causes much confusion and unnecessary division.

For example, the Holy Spirit came to Mary instead of Mary’s husband Joseph. Thus is the Holy Spirit the Father of Jesus, or is the Father? Explain that one with the confusing dogma of the Trinity.

John 15:26
“But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me.

The Holy Spirit is the spirit of the Father and is not another person, nor an equal partner of a triune God.

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  • April 1, 2015 at 9:13 am#792245
    bodhitharta
    Participant

    Scripture says, “the Son of God”, not “God the Son”..

    Have we ever heard, “the Father of God”?

    So there is no ‘God the Son’ nor the ‘Father of God’.

    But that is what the Trinity basically teaches.

    We already know that it is an extra-biblical doctrine though.

    That is brilliant, you are correct you would think if Jesus was God there would definitely been at least one verse that says “the Father of God” because if they are the same essence or being there would be a correlation, I actually do not believe you can find the term the Father of God anywhere except maybe greek mythology

    April 1, 2015 at 9:16 am#792247
    bodhitharta
    Participant

    DavidL

    If you were to be honest as a forum participant you wouldn’t keep dodging my questions, even if you do not want to debate you could still be courteous and answer my questions…they are not difficult.

    Is Ephraim the Firstborn of God?

    April 1, 2015 at 9:19 am#792249
    Proclaimer
    Participant

     But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and be ready always to give an answer to every man who asketh you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear.

    April 1, 2015 at 9:20 am#792250
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi davidl,

    You told us the term trinity is of man.

    Now you teach it as a foundation doctrine.

     

    ummm

    April 1, 2015 at 9:21 am#792251
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi davidl,

    If your god is triune which member is the father of Jesus?

    April 1, 2015 at 9:26 am#792252
    bodhitharta
    Participant

    Hi DavidL

    Genesis 27:24
    And he said, “Art thou my very son Esau?” And he said, “I am.”

    Is Esau also God now that he said “I am”?

    April 1, 2015 at 9:57 am#792254
    kerwin
    Participant

    David L,

    You do not believe Scripture or you would not believe in the Trinity doctrine. The two are in conflict. Scripture tells us Jesus is our not our God. Instead Jesus told his followers that he was going to his Father and their Father and his God and their God (John 20:17). Thus he reveals he is both their brother and has same God as they do. You do not believe that because to believe it is not compatible with the Trinitarian doctrine.

    You can only have one master either the Trinitarian doctrine of Scripture as they are in conflict.

    If you believe Scripture then you believe ‘there is one God and one mediator between human and God and that mediator is the human being Jesus Christ, the same one who sacrificed his mortal life that all humanity has the choice to make peace with God’ (1st Timothy 2:5).

    April 1, 2015 at 10:00 am#792255
    kerwin
    Participant

    Nick,

    Do you expect a rational response from one who admits Jesus stated he had God and Jesus also said was his Father and yet also claims Jesus is equal to that God?

    April 1, 2015 at 10:37 am#792258
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi KW,

    Rationality does not come into it.

    It is the heart where the call is heard.

    April 1, 2015 at 10:59 am#792263
    bodhitharta
    Participant

    Rationality does come into it, the problem is his “heart ” is into the wrong thing

    Genesis 6:5
    And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagining of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

      you need rationality to see the truth

    :

    Luke 24:15
    And it came to pass that while they communed and reasoned together, Jesus Himself drew near and went with them.

    Isaiah 1:17-1921st Century King James Version (KJ21)

    17 learn to do well. Seek judgment, relieve the oppressed; judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

    18 “Come now, and let us reason together,” saith the Lord. “Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

    19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land;

    The first thing to undermine truth is to undermind KNOWLEDGE and REASON, the heart alone cannot be trusted which is why DavidL feels just as commited as you do, if he worked it out using knowledge it would change his heart but he is stuck from a lack of knowledge

    April 1, 2015 at 11:18 am#792265
    kerwin
    Participant

    Nick,

    Rationality does come into it when the reason the lack of reason exist is because it is a fruit of the flesh.

    Acts 6:2Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    2 Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.

    reason is a synonym for rational in this passage.

    April 1, 2015 at 11:24 am#792266
    kerwin
    Participant

    Bodhitharta,

    …if he worked it out using knowledge it would change his heart but he is stuck from a lack of knowledge

    That is one reason why God states his people perish from lack of knowledge.

    April 1, 2015 at 11:39 am#792269
    bodhitharta
    Participant

    HI Kerwin

    One of my favorite movie quotes comes from the movie The Prestige(Movie about Magic and illusions)

    Alfred Borden:
    Now you’re looking for the secret. But you won’t find it because of course, you’re not really looking. You don’t really want to work it out. You want to be fooled.

    This is how it is with the trinity and most fantastical theology where a person is more amazed and perplexed than actually comprehending what they are believing in, it’s like arguing with someone that really believes a lady is really cut in half or an elephant really vanishes try as you may if they won’t work it out in their mind you will never convince them otherwise, this is why I continually try to come to some sort of terms with a person on how we can have guidelines to come to a conclusion together without simply keep the (magic trick type of conversations) going on and on.

    It’s like you make a sound argument and suddenly it’s like abracadabra….You ask something simple like is Ephraim the firstborn of God and either you get no answer or you get a completely unasked for response it’s just like exposing a magician and asking him to open up the concealed compartment he has to pretend not to hear you or make some excuse to avoid you spoiling the trick

    April 1, 2015 at 12:07 pm#792271
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Some good points have been made in these latest posts.

    🙂

    April 1, 2015 at 12:18 pm#792273
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    t8

    You foolishly denounce the trinity doctrine as ‘man-made’…casting doubt over Scripture, and undermining an integral part of the Christian faith – yet what you offer as ‘proof” is ironically just as man-made and confused as what you say the trinity is…!!!

    Haven’t you noticed yet that your teaching is based on the study of doctrines and catholic encyclopedias – instead of Scripture…?

    In deploring Catholic doctrine, you have failed to discern truth mixed with tradition ..thus according to your natural comprehension and reasoning, you have essentially rejected and jettisoned the spiritual elements of the trinity along with its traditional aspects – replacing what is inspired (the Deity of Christ), with your own ideas and logical interpretations.. thus you unwittingly suppress and denying the Scriptural revelation of Jesus Christ Himself.. because of your own biased stance on this doctrine as a whole.


    @DavidL    . what you are teaching us is Roman Catholic dogma. Read their creed below and tell me that this isn’t what you teach. I bet you agree with every point, if not, then nearly every point. In the past, men have been killed for not believing this. Today, you can only persecute us for not believing it.

    We believe Jesus Christ the son of God and we believe the Apostles. That is why we trust in scripture rather than man-made creeds. Truth over tradition DavidL. It is clear you have chosen tradition and the Roman Catholic Faith as described below.

    Only those who truly seek will find the truth. The mainstream only find the wide path. Those who love the truth will die for it too if it comes to that. Many have already died for denying this deceptive doctrine and they have died in violent ways not to dissimilar to to the way ISIS kills people. Back then they implored the rack and burning at the stake. Come out of her DavidL. Do not be a partaker of her sins. Believe Yeshua when he said that eternal life was to know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he has sent.

    Here is your faith DavidL and the Roman Catholic Faith otherwise known as the Athanasian Creed. You do not need to teach us this faith, we already know what it entails and have rejected it for good reason.

    Whosoever will be saved, before all things, it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith.  Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.  And the catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the Persons nor dividing the Substance.  For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost.  But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is all one; the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. 

    Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost.  The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Ghost uncreate. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the holy Ghost incomprehensible.  The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal.  And yet they are not three Eternals, but one Eternal. As there are not three Uncreated nor three Incomprehensibles, but one Uncreated and one Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Ghost almighty.  And yet they are not three Eternals, but one Eternal. 

    As there are not three Uncreated nor three Incomprehensibles, but one Uncreated and one Incomprehensible, so likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Ghost almighty.  And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty.

    So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God.  And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.  So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord, and yet not three Lords, but one Lord. 

    For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, so we are forbidden by the catholic religion to say, There be three Gods or three Lords. 

    The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.  The Son is of the Father alone, not made nor created but begotten.  The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son, neither made nor created nor begotten, but proceeding. 

    So, there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts.  And in this Trinity none is before or after another; none is greater or less than another; but the whole three Persons are coeternal together and coequal, so that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshiped. 

    Any person, therefore, that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity. 

    Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that we also believe faithfully the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.  For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God of the Substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man of the substance of His mother, born in the world; Perfect God and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.  Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood; who although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but one Christ;  one, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking the manhood into God;  one altogether; not by confusion of Substance, but by unity of Person. 

    For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead;  He ascended into heaven; He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty; from whence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.  At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies and shall give an account of their own works.  And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. 
    This is the catholic faith; which except you believe faithfully and firmly, you cannot be saved.”

    This is also DavidL’s faith as testified by his posts in these forums.

    April 2, 2015 at 5:40 am#792390
    DavidL
    Participant

    Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood; who although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but one Christ;  one, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking the manhood into God;  one altogether; not by confusion of Substance, but by unity of Person. 

    The Catholics make more sense than you t8..!!

    ..you say:

    We believe Jesus Christ the son of God and we believe the Apostles. That is why we trust in scripture rather than man-made creeds.

    Unfortunately this statement of yours is a straight out lie…!

    You do not believe Jesus, or the Apostles…nor is your trust in Scripture.. but like the cults, you have twisted and changed Scripture to form your own theology – and this lie is what you trust in.

    It is clear you have chosen tradition and the Roman Catholic Faith

    Your thinking is as corrupted as your doctrine – I have explained to you in simple terms my understanding of the trinity, none of which is formed from Catholic teaching, but rather flows out of my relationship with the Word.. of which I have no need to change.

    Only those who truly seek will find the truth

    The truth is not comprehended by your logic, t8 – you claim to have truth, but again this is false..thus you have become an impostor peddling your own false doctrine..!!

    Believe Yeshua when he said that eternal life was to know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he has sent.

    Like Arius before you, you ignorantly believe this verse proves your false teaching, when in reality (if you had eyes to see) it actually confirms the unity of the Son with the Father – a oneness you actually deny.

     

    You think you have tested the trinity – but you’ve missed the mark completely..!!

    What you should test is your own doctrine, because, as any Spirit filled believer will show you – you have messed up big time.!!

    April 2, 2015 at 6:14 am#792391
    kerwin
    Participant

    DavidL,

    Jesus told his disciples “I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.(John 20:17 AV of the KJV)

    • His words tell us he has someone he calls “my Father”.
    • The one he calls “my Father” is the same one that he affirms is the disciples Father.
    • His words tell us he has someone he calls “my God”.
    • The one he calls “my God” is the same one that he affirms is the disciples God.
    • His words imply he is the Brother of his disciples since he has the same Father as they do.

    You claim Jesus is equal to his Father in that he is God but that cannot be if God the Father is his God as he claims. Both statements cannot be true. Either God the Father is Jesus’ God as both Scripture and Jesus claim or Jesus is God coequal to God the Father as your teaching claim. Both teachings cannot be true. I choose the words of Jesus as my master instead of your chosen teaching.

    April 2, 2015 at 7:01 am#792395
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi davidl,

    What trinity?

    Is it in the bible?

    April 2, 2015 at 7:15 am#792399
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi davidl,

    Your adaptation of God destroys the planned relationship you can have with the Father and the Son in Christ by the Spirit.

    Instead you made an icon to put on the shelf.

    April 2, 2015 at 8:55 am#792414
    bodhitharta
    Participant

    Kerwin

    That was brilliant but I have found that DavidL will blank out instead of actually see what you are saying he loves “chastising” Nick because Nick stays pretty basic in his response, He chastises t8 because t8 allows conjecture as part of his argument which allows DavidL to do the same….DavidL is in love with Magic and he doesn’t want to work out his theology because it will be exposed and I don’t blame him because he needs to believe that his salvation is magical.

    Jesus told his disciples “I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.(John 20:17 AV of the KJV)

    DavidL what did Jesus mean by saying he worships God and not telling them “I ascend because I am God”

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