Was God Manifest in the Flesh?

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

This scripture infers that Jesus is God. Although you could argue that even we should manifest God in our lives knowing full well we are not God. Regardless, this verse is certainly a verse that Trinitarians use as a proof verse, and to the untrained eye, people may well accept that Jesus is God based on this verse alone.

But is this all there is to this matter.

Apparently this verse is controversial because most other translations do not say “God was manifest in the flesh”, rather they say “He was manifest in the flesh”.

So what is going on here. Why does the KJV say ‘God’ and most other translations say ‘He’?

I found this explanation in and thought it would be helpful to share it.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080728123800AALVzER

Thank you so much for this question. It is a very interesting one.

A few weeks ago, I inquired of a Greek translator who often posts on this site, asking him this very same thing. He kindly and carefully explained to me that, first off, one must understand the nomina sacra (sacred names). He explained that these are abbreviations, in early manuscripts, of certain names and titles.

In ancient manuscripts 1 Timothy 3:16 had the word “os” which looks like: “OC” and means “he”.

The nomina sacra of God looks like OC but it has a horizontal line through the middle of the O and a long horizontal line over both letters (as Abernathy, above, explained).

The Greek translator continues, and I quote: “In one old manuscript (Codex Alexandrinus) it seems to the nomina sacra, but an analysis of the manuscript demonstrated that the two horizontal lines were added centuries later.

Many late manuscripts have the nomina sacra, but all manuscripts earlier than about 800AD have OC “He”

So “He was manifest in the flesh” is supported by all the most ancient manuscripts, “God was manifest in the flesh” has no attestation before 800 AD.”

End quote.

Hannah J Paul

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October 6, 2014 at 2:19 am#779360
kerwin
Participant
T8.
It says that HE was taken up into glory. Does your Bible teach that the Holy Spirit was taken up into glory? Mine definitely teaches that Jesus was and is there now.
Acts 7:43Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
43 Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.
The pronouns are translated from a language that does not use them like they are in English. If directly translated they merely tell us that “he” is being substituted for a Koine Greek noun that has the gender of male.
An example of the same root word translated “taken up” is:
Acts 7:43Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
43 Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.
In that case the people had taken up the tabernacle of Moloch. So “it/he/she” was taken up in glory.
So is it believed that the that the pronoun that subjectively translated he by translators commonly believe to be Jesus because 1) the translators subjective translation of the pronoun and 2) trinitarian influenced traditions or because the context of the passage makes it clear it is Jesus.
The bottom line is should we trust those that translate Scripture or should we test the spirit of what they say?
October 6, 2014 at 2:25 am#779361
kerwin
Participant
T,
The gospel was taken up in glory by those that believed. I believe the mystery of godliness is revealed in the gospel to those that believe in Jesus Christ.
October 6, 2014 at 9:51 am#779441
Proclaimer
Participant
lol guys. Everything but Jesus being taken up into glory.
October 6, 2014 at 12:34 pm#779465
NickHassan
Participant
Hi t8,
From the Jordan Jesus of Nazareth is indistinguishable from the Word.
Flesh contributes nothing so the Word is spoken of.
October 6, 2014 at 12:35 pm#779466
NickHassan
Participant
Hi T8,
Indeed the Spirit of Christ returned to heaven.
Then the Spirit was shared with the brothers at Pentecost
October 6, 2014 at 12:53 pm#779467
terraricca
Participant
hi
i believe that the spirit that weny up with Christ was his own spirit ,for if not then what would it be that when up ?
October 6, 2014 at 12:59 pm#779468
NickHassan
Participant
Hi T,
His own spirit left him at calvary.
He was enlivened by the Spirit of life
rom 1 4
October 6, 2014 at 1:28 pm#779470
NickHassan
Participant
Hi,
The flesh contributes nothing
Yet the major confusion among the religious is attributing the words and actions to the flesh man.

Could God make it any clearer that Jesus was only a vessel for the Spirit?
October 7, 2014 at 12:25 am#779517
Proclaimer
Participant
Acts 1:9
And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
In John 6:61-63 he claims that he will ascend to the place he was before:
When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
In John 20:17 Jesus tells Mary Magdalene
“Do not hold on to Me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am returning to my Father and your Father, to My God and your God.
Ephesians 4:8-10
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Acts 2:30-33
Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.
October 7, 2014 at 12:31 am#779518
Proclaimer
Participant
Yes, the HolySpirit – which *IS* God manifested in the flesh. (see Acts 5:3-4)
Your not making sense EdJ.
October 7, 2014 at 12:39 am#779520
Proclaimer
Participant
Who among you can deny that the son was taken up into God’s glory.
For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.
October 7, 2014 at 1:21 am#779526
Ed J
Participant
Your not making sense EdJ.
Hi T8,
What would you like me to clarify?
October 7, 2014 at 1:22 am#779527
Ed J
Participant
Who among you can deny that the son was taken up into God’s glory.
Certainly not me.
October 7, 2014 at 5:03 am#779538
kerwin
Participant
T8,
Who among you can deny that the son was taken up into God’s glory.
Asking that question is different than claiming the words “taken up in glory” are always taking about Jesus Anointed. The answer to the first is true but the second assertion is false because other things can be taking up in glory.
Paul is being vague in his statement.
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
Then he describes they mystery of godliness by saying
1) God was manifest in the flesh: This statement is true as God was first revealed in flesh of Jesus and then when the new covenant began and afterwards he was revealed in the flesh of those that chose to live by the Spirit.
3) justified in the Spirit: This is true as Jesus and later his believers were revealed to be right in their actions by the power the power of the Spirit.
4) seen of angels: The angels bear witness to all that occurs.
5) preached unto the Gentiles the gospel all it contains was preached to the Gentiles after Jesus messengers bore witness to it and were sent by Jesus to the nations.
6) believed on in the world: like the one above this is more of the gospel and all it contains.
7) received up into glory: Jesus was received up in glory and so was the gospel but Jesus was received before the gospel was preached to the Gentiles while the Gentiles took up the gospel and everything in it after it was preached to them.
Paul does not mention Jesus but he does mention the “mystery of godliness” and that sounds to me as if he was speaking directly about “the mystery of godliness”.
October 7, 2014 at 10:12 pm#779658
Proclaimer
Participant
1) God was manifest in the flesh: This statement is true as God was first revealed in flesh of Jesus and then when the new covenant began and afterwards he was revealed in the flesh of those that chose to live by the Spirit.
Kerwin, are you not concerned that most translators say: ‘HE’ instead of God?
You seem to be like many here, taking a different view for the sake of being different, when the simple and obvious view is ignored because that would be too status quo.
Jesus ticks all the boxes here and denying that he was manifest in the flesh or became a man is not of God’s spirit. Not saying you deny he came in the flesh, but you deny that it is saying it here. And as for your view that God was taken up into glory, well I cannot wish you good luck with that one.
This reminds me of the Trinity debate. Some say God is only the Father like Paul stated in his letters, but then we have the opposite people that choose anything but one God the Father. We have a Binitarian, had some fierce Trinitarians, and we even have believe it or not a Quadratarian thanks to EdJ putting his hand up there. Nobody here is a Quinatarian yet, perhaps you can help out with that one or corner that market for Quinatarians?
Making a joke of course, but seems fitting to be funny given all the opposite people that come here.
October 7, 2014 at 10:45 pm#779666
Ed J
Participant
We have a Binitarian, had some fierce Trinitarians, and we even have believe it or not a Quadratarian thanks to EdJ putting his hand up there. Nobody here is a Quinatarian yet, perhaps you can help out with that one or corner that market for Quinatarians?
Hi T8,
It bothers you when people misrepresent what you believe because it is the weakness in YOUR character.
I told you I could make you understand my view if you took the time to discuss it with me.
I guess you’re too busy arguing over misconceptions to bother. 🙂
___________
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org _________________________________________________________________________________________________________
”Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.” – JEHOVAH GOD
October 7, 2014 at 10:55 pm#779670
Ed J
Participant
Hi T8,
Now would be a good time for you to mention Gematria,
certainly that will add credibility to your argument. 🙂
___________
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org _________________________________________________________________________________________________________
”Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.” – JEHOVAH GOD
October 8, 2014 at 6:44 pm#779886
Proclaimer
Participant
EdJ, I have read your view on 4 a number of times. Each time it appears you are combining the Trinity with one God and arriving at 4 and saying that both the Trinity and the One God view are correct. And then you support it with something about a four-square or four-something.
To be honest it is as clear as mud. But you make the case that 3+1=4. I call it the Quadratarian view for easy reference. Whatever, for US, there is one God the Father. He is the one true God.
I am in the US camp that Paul refers to with regards to who is God and how many are God.
October 8, 2014 at 6:51 pm#779887
Proclaimer
Participant
As for me mentioning Gematria to give credibility for my argument. I couldn’t think of a more foolish thing to promote. It would encourage all manner of false doctrine. You could say what you want, and then spend time making some sums out of it and then hello, a solid argument. I think not. Jesus nor anyone else did this. What matters is the truth, not pseudo-mathematics.
October 9, 2014 at 2:58 am#779992
kerwin
Participant
T8,
Kerwin, are you not concerned that most translators say: ‘HE’ instead of God?
I go by feelings and frankly the common translation does not sound correct because if I were to right the same words about Jesus I would do it in the order of what happened and not randomly.
Jesus was taken up in glory before the message of salvation was preached to the Gentiles not afterwards.
Then there is the fact that Paul did not say he was speaking of Jesus. His statement instead was the mystery of godliness is great.
The mystery of how to be like God in true righteousness and holiness is great. I has been manifesting in the flesh since it first manifested in Jesus, angels have been witnessing it, this mystery has been preached to the Gentile and you can still hear it from Scripture if you have ears to hear, many have continued to take it up in glory.
Without Jesus who is the pioneer and perfecter of the true faith it would not be.
I do not trust translators though they seem to be right the vast majority of the time. That I attribute to God more than to the translators credibility.
I find it a weaker message to translate it the traditional way but accept for hiding the importance of the mystery of godliness it seems consistent with Scripture though the meaning some give it is not.
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