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[vjesnik]

Quote (Wakeup @ May 28 2014,17:20)

Quote (vjesnik @ May 28 2014,18:10) Quote (Wakeup @ May 28 2014,15:45) Quote (vjesnik @ May 28 2014,16:35) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 28 2014,04:55) Hi VJ, Yes the Spirit of Christ was in the Prophets[1 peter 1.11] and in the desert as you show. And the word was spoken through angels [heb 2.2] And Hebrews 1-2 contrasts Jesus Christ with the angels Hi Nick I showed, actually the scripture shows it was the Christ who was going with them “…and the Rock was Christ.” It is very clear. Here you mix the Spirit of Christ (the Holy Spirit) with the Christ. 1 Peter 1.10-11 is talking about the prophecy and it is the Holy Spirit who brings prophecy. 2 Peter 1; 20-21 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. It is very clear. Vjesnik Vjesnik. THE ROCK *REPRESENTS CHRIST*; AND THE WATER *REPRESENTS* THE HOLY SPIRIT. Can you answer this question? Who created Micha'el? wakeup. wakeup The Father of course. God bless Vjesnik Scriptures says that the Word created all things.  John 1:1   In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, **and the Word was God**.  John 1:2   The same was in the beginning **with God**.  John 1:3   ***All things were made by him***; ***and without him was not any thing made that was       made***. WITHOUT HIM WAS *NOT ANYTHING* MADE THAT WAS MADE. THIS ONLY MEANS THAT MICHA'EL WAS MADE BY THE WORD. THEREFORE MICHA'EL CAN NOT BE THE WORD. Does that make any sense to you? wakeup.

wakeup wakeup

I see you are trying to set up traps for me 
I’m glad for that because anyone looking this thread that is really looking for the truth can see the answer to this.

Your logic is not the right one. Why? I will give you the example from the scripture.

1 Corinthians 15:27 For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him.
It is plain in this text, although it says “all”, it doesn’t include the God himself, the same, in the text you are quoting; it should be plain that it doesn’t include the Word, it includes everything except him who come from the Father, everything that was created through him, but it doesn’t include himself who was created by his Father.

Did you ever read?
Hebrews 3:2   Who is faithful to him that made  him, as was also Moses in all his house. – Greek word 4160. poieó: to make, do , although the Trinitarians translate it as appointed that is not what Greek says.

Hebrews 2:11 For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers, We all have one source, the Father

Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”  He is the Father’s firstborn before even coming into the world.

Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. Again, he is the firstborn of all creation, now don’t ignore the part where it says “of all creation” thus making him the part of God’s creation; although very special one, he is the only begotten Son, the only direct creation of the Father. Now you can use the translation where it says “over all creation”, but that is not what the Greek manuscripts say. Just remember what Jesus said about removing, adding, changing the scriptures!

Revelation 3:14 “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation.
He is the beginning of God’s creation – in Greek arché, does this sound familiar.

Except it or not, there is only one true God, and that is the Father. Jesus is the Son of God.

Son has to come from the Father, otherwise the scriptures wouldn’t be talking about the Father and the Son, but about two or three brothers (depends which view you are holding) without the father.

God bless
Vjesnik

[vjesnik]

Quote (Wakeup @ May 28 2014,15:45)

Quote (vjesnik @ May 28 2014,16:35) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 28 2014,04:55) Hi VJ, Yes the Spirit of Christ was in the Prophets[1 peter 1.11] and in the desert as you show. And the word was spoken through angels [heb 2.2] And Hebrews 1-2 contrasts Jesus Christ with the angels Hi Nick I showed, actually the scripture shows it was the Christ who was going with them “…and the Rock was Christ.” It is very clear. Here you mix the Spirit of Christ (the Holy Spirit) with the Christ. 1 Peter 1.10-11 is talking about the prophecy and it is the Holy Spirit who brings prophecy. 2 Peter 1; 20-21 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. It is very clear. Vjesnik Vjesnik. THE ROCK *REPRESENTS CHRIST*; AND THE WATER *REPRESENTS* THE HOLY SPIRIT. Can you answer this question? Who created Micha'el? wakeup.

wakeup

The Father of course.

God bless
Vjesnik

[vjesnik]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 28 2014,06:44)

Hi JV, You quote Exodus 23; 20-22 “Behold, I send an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared. Pay careful attention to him and obey his voice; do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgression, for my name is in him. “ Yes the angel of the Lord went before them, not Jesus Christ.

Hi Nick

…and once again Nick, it clearly says “…and the Rock was Christ.”
Please notice they have to pay careful attention to him, obey him, not rebel against him, because he will not forgive their transgressions, so you see he has the power to forgive or not forgive sins!

Here’s another text about the same being where we see he has the power to save.
Isaiah 63:9 In all their distress he too was distressed, and the angel of his presence saved them…
There is only one person that fits all this and it is the Christ.

God bless
Vjesnik

[vjesnik]

Quote (kerwin @ May 28 2014,05:38)

Quote (vjesnik @ May 27 2014,23:50) Quote (kerwin @ May 28 2014,02:56) vjesnik, Quote Is the archangel Michael the same person as Jesus? Jesus is not an angel as God did not subject the world to come to angels but it is subjected to Jesus. kerwin 1 Corinthians 10; 1-4 For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers,  that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ. Exodus 23; 20-22 “Behold, I send an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared. Pay careful attention to him and obey his voice; do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgression, for my name is in him. Acts 7; 38 This is the one (Moses) who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him at Mount Sinai… Exodus 34; 27-28 And the Lord said to Moses, “Write these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.” So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights. He neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments. God bless vjesnik, Please credit the version you are quoting from.  If you have a favorite then I would address you in it provide it was not one of the thought for thought versions I find heavily biased. Hebrews 2:5 New English Translation (NET) 5 For he did not put the world to come, about which we are speaking, under the control of angels. Scripture cannot be broken so the passages you quote and Hebrews 2:5 cannot contradict each other.  They must agree on all points they have in common. Nick already pointed out a good interpretation that resolves your Scripture in such a way as they do not imply that Jesus is an angel.  In this way his interpretation is in harmony with Hebrews 2:5.

Hi kerwin

I like to study the originals because you can find out which words were completely mistranslated to support the doctrine of trinity, but in this case I used English Standard Version.

For it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come but to his only begotten Son. There is no contradictions here it fits perfectly. These texts do not prove he is not the same being. He is talking about the other angels and about the Son of man, he had exalted position from the beginning and everything was made through him and for him.

God bless
Vjesnik

[vjesnik]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 28 2014,05:15)

Hi JV, Heb  1 1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: 4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. 13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? 14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation? Jesus was for a time less than and now is greater than the angels. But he was never ONE OF the angels

Nick
You said : “But he was never ONE OF the angels”
I think that people don’t understand he is sometimes called an angel because they perceive the angels as the lowest beings, which is pure traditional view.
Let me explain, although he is called an angel, in the scripture it is very clear that he is not “just any angel”, he is not “just angel”, he is very special one as his title and the name say: Archangel Michael, meaning – The First Angel – Messenger, who is like God. What does the Bible says about Jesus: Colossians 1:15 “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.” Basically the exact same thing.
So the texts you quoted do not contradict this.

God bless
Vjesnik

[vjesnik]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 28 2014,05:00)

Hi VJ, Daniel 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia. Daniel 10:21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince. Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. So he is the great prince of the Jewish people, one of the chief princes. Of course Jesus Christ is over all these angels and the jews and gentiles are one in him.

Nick
If you want me to further comment on this texts and show you more points for my case, it is important for me to know who do you believe is talking to Daniel in these texts?

He is the great prince of Daniels people, which are all believers, not just Jews, as we are adopted into Gods family and at that time it was the same. The people who believed where adopted into God’s family.
Isaiah 56:3 Let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the LORD say, “The LORD will surely separate me from his people”…

So if they are two different persons that means we have two princes.

As for “one of the chief princes” I already explained it in my first post. Echad means one or first, and although it is translated as the one, more correct translation would be the First because the texts is signifying how special He is. Being the First one, of course he would be in charge of all angels. Jesus is also called the First 

God bless
Vjesnik

[vjesnik]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 28 2014,04:55)

Hi VJ, Yes the Spirit of Christ was in the Prophets[1 peter 1.11] and in the desert as you show. And the word was spoken through angels [heb 2.2] And Hebrews 1-2 contrasts Jesus Christ with the angels

Hi Nick
I showed, actually the scripture shows it was the Christ who was going with them “…and the Rock was Christ.” It is very clear.

Here you mix the Spirit of Christ (the Holy Spirit) with the Christ. 1 Peter 1.10-11 is talking about the prophecy and it is the Holy Spirit who brings prophecy. 2 Peter 1; 20-21 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. It is very clear.

Vjesnik

[vjesnik]

Quote (kerwin @ May 28 2014,02:56)

vjesnik, Quote Is the archangel Michael the same person as Jesus? Jesus is not an angel as God did not subject the world to come to angels but it is subjected to Jesus.

kerwin

1 Corinthians 10; 1-4 For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ.

Exodus 23; 20-22 “Behold, I send an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared. Pay careful attention to him and obey his voice; do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgression, for my name is in him.

Acts 7; 38 This is the one (Moses) who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him at Mount Sinai…

Exodus 34; 27-28 And the Lord said to Moses, “Write these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.” So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights. He neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

God bless

[vjesnik]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 28 2014,03:02)

Hi, This false doctrine comes from poor, one verse, inferential scriptural analysis. It shows how scriptural study must be done with care or it makes fools of us.

Nick

There is more than one verse that I quoted brother Nick, and you are saying it is only one. You are saying untruths and just your opinion. Yet there is absolutely no scriptural evidence that you bring.

[vjesnik]

Quote (Wakeup @ May 28 2014,02:49)

Vjesnik. First of all. What bible are you studying? Because jesus was never called an angel in scripture. Daniel also quoted that Micha'el is ONE OF the four chief angels. wakeup.

wakeup

I read the Bible in my language, but no worry you can find it all of the versions. the Lord is called an angel, the angel, the angel of the Lord, many times. I give you tree examples in the first post, but there are many more.

About Daniel, he never said that he is one of four, never.
Can you please show me the text saying “one of four” –
that is pure tradition.

God bless
Vjesnik

[vjesnik]

Quote (Wakeup @ May 28 2014,02:15)

Vjesnik. I know the jw's teach that doctrine. Just ponder on this scripture. John 1. WITHOUT HIM WAS *NOT ANYTHING* MADE THAT WAS MADE. MICHA''EL AND THE OTHER ANGELS WERE MADE BY THE WORD. That should dismiss that false doctrine. The Word of God that was made flesh; is named Jesus. And the Word was from everlasting. Micha'el is not. wakeup.

Hi wakeup

First to tell you I'm not JW.

You quoted John 1;3 to prove your point, but it doesn't do you a favor. I don't know if you really read my post or just replied without reading it.
Your view creates many problems…
Let me explain, the Word of God is called an angel in the old testament many times. The archangel means the first angel or cheaf angel. If archangel Michael is the First Angel, for you to be correct the word of God should be angel number 0.
Second thing is that the archangel is above the angel. As scripture clearly calls Lord an angel many times, that would mean that the Lord (the Word – Jesus) created someone who is above him. Doesn't make any sense.

[vjesnik]

I see John 1:1 exactly the way he meant to write it.
There is the God  (only true God) and God (the Son of God)

We can find confirmation to this further in the text, although we have to look into Greek and not rely
on trinitarian translations, but rather on the originals.

<>
King James Version
15John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
(1096. ginomai: to come into being, to happen, to become. It is the same word used in John 1:3, to describe that world come into being through Yeshua).

<>
King James Version
30This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
(the same as above)

John is not talking about his earthly birth because Jesus was born after him.
These texts fit perfectly with Colossians 1:15

15Who (Yeshua) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
(Greek: [the] firstborn of all creation)

Now the question is, why is come into being translated as preferred or appointed?
To me it is very clear why.

Further to this there is punctuation problem in John 1:3-4.
Although there were not many punctuation in the Greek originals, many early texts with punctuations have it in different place than we have it in our bibles today.
Today we have punctuation in verse 3 after “ ὃ γέγονεν ”(which has come into being), although in the Greek this structure doesn’t make sense.
So why, the punctuation is not in the place where it is in the early texts, and where it will make sense in the Greek?
This is how we have it now:
All things came into being through him, and apart from him, not one thing came into being which has come into being.  In him was life, and the life was the light of men.

And this is how the text may read, with the punctuation in the right place:
All things came into being through him, and apart from him, not one thing came into being.
Who come into being in him was life, and the life was the light of men.

This is in the agreement with scriptures above and many other scriptures.

Now, the question is do we have a right to freely translate and/or change things in the bible for the sake of the doctrine? What Jesus said about this?

Believing that Jesus is the firstborn of all creation, that he come into being, doesn’t make Him smaller, neither it takes away anything from what God has done through Him, or from what Jesus has done for us. He is still my Lord and saviour, The Son of God.
God bless

[vjesnik]

Quote

What is the difference between colossians 1:15 in KJV which says: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: and  your bible . Quote   Col 1:15-16 is basically saying, “Jesus HAS TO BE the firstborn of all creation, BECAUSE all [other] things were created THROUGH him.” To me first born of all creation is quite different from the first born of every creature,since scientifacally we are well advanced, and we all know that some kind of humans at least has been on earth since  three and a half million years, and the bible states that the first man Adam was created only six thousand years ago? The first born of all creation gives us an impression that Jesus spirit was the very first creature as a spirit ever created,and then Jesus created all the creatures. which it doesn't work since Jesus created all whatever was created.Even all the spiritual creatures.

Actually “first born of all creation” is correct. Will you convert now   ?
Millions of years…some kind of humans …that are just theories!!!
God bless
vjesnik

[vjesnik]

Quote

vjesnik, Read these scriptures, and you yourself decide what Jesus is according to the Father. Hebrews 1:7 And to the angels indeed he saith: He that maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 But to the Son: Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of justice is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved justice, and hated iniquity: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 10 And: Thou in the beginning, O Lord, didst found the earth: and the works of thy hands are the heavens. 11 They shall perish, but thou shalt continue: and they shall all grow old as a garment. 12 And as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: but thou art the selfsame, and thy years shall not fail. peace and love in Jesus Christ Charles

Hi Charles
Sorry I can't comment on all texts (my English isn't so good, it would probably take me a week to do that ).
So I will comment just one
9 Thou hast loved justice, and hated iniquity: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
By definition to be equal to God, the God that is equal could not have God, unless they are both gods of each other; and we can not find any example of that in the bible. In the case that they are gods one to each other by definition they could not be true gods any more because to be true God means that you are above everyone and everything. So this text is a perfect answer to the question who Jesus is relation to the Father. However I do understand why some people could think that’s the case and i will try to explain that when i get some time.
Also note that Jesus was anointed by Father.
Dear brothers and sisters, true doctrine have to fit in all Bible not just parts of it.

Let me finish with the words of our Lord and saviour: And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. (John 17:3)

God bless
vjesnik

[vjesnik]

Quote

I might start another thread for that question – unless you want to.  We could start at Genesis, and work through every prophecy of Jesus to see if the Father ever claimed him to be God Himself.  And then move on to the words of the Father in the NT.

Hi Mike
Feel free to start another thread.

God bless
vjesnik

[vjesnik]

Thanks Ed

God bless
vjesnik

[vjesnik]

An earlier text:

Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him. But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries. For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off. Exodus 23:20-23

People are commanded to obey this Angel, He has the authority to forgive/or not to forgive transgressions and Gods name is in Him.

God bless
vjesnik
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. (John 17:3)

[vjesnik]

There are a lot of opinions on who Jesus is and lot of biblical texts that different doctrines interpret differently. So how to know which interpretations are right?
To me most wise would be to start with this question: who God the Father says Jesus was/is? Once we have the answer to this question it would be wise to conclude that all interpretations/doctrines that doesn’t fit Fathers words are false.

God bless
vjesnik

[vjesnik]

“God” is title and not a name. “God” is a term that is used to describe supreme being with authority (good or bad), but also false gods, carved images…
When we are talking about only true God bible is very clear about that: “And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.”(John 17:3) So there is only one true God (Father), but there are also others who are called gods and they are not all false gods.  Jesus is called God: “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” (Isaiah 9:6)
Also God can appoint someone to be god: “And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.” (Exodus 7:1)
So there are other gods and they are not all self called or so called gods.
It is important to read verses in context and understand if they are talking about God/gods, false gods or about only true God.

Sorry about my English
God bless
vjesnik

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