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[vicalcabasa]

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 01 2005,18:55)

Peace greetings ALL!, I myself do not believe that Yahshua (Jesus) pre-existed from the beginning was a co-creator with Father Yahweh and that he was eternal, but that he was begotten of Father Yahweh (born of a woman –  Galatians 4:4; Revelation 12:4). I do not believe that Yahshua was Yahweh's spokesman from the very beginning as is made clear In Hebrews 1:1-2). I also do not believe in the trinity doctrine or the two Yahwehs doctrine. Yahshua Did Not “Pre-exist”

what exactly do you believe, frank?

[vicalcabasa]

WHat about the godhead occurs three times in the scriptures (Acts 17: 29, Rom. 1: 20, Col. 2: 9, KJV).

Is he the father or the triune God?

[vicalcabasa]

Quote (epistemaniac @ July 27 2005,22:37)

ahhhh…. so now you have the gift to see into men's hearts and to know whether or not they have “sincere attitudes”…. I see… well since the ability to see into belongs solely to God; (1 Ki 8:39 NKJV)  “”then hear in heaven Your dwelling place, and forgive, and act, and give to everyone according to all his ways, whose heart You know (for You alone know the hearts of all the sons of men),” then your claim to be able to do what only God can do means that your problems are far more severe then any imaginings you have about how sincere my attitude is in seeking the truth….. more severe even then your denial of the trinity, you seem to be having some sort of identity crises…. if only God can see into the hearts of men, and you claim to see into my heart and know whether or not I am “sincere”…… well… can you see where this is leading?

well, i guess the last sentence was unnecessary. sorry

[vicalcabasa]

Quote (Guest @ July 27 2005,03:55)

Nick, If you do not repent of the denial of His name, you will never be resurrected in His image and glorified. You will be resurrected, but in your old image -minus mutations- for all Adam will be resurrected in their own bodies from the dust of this creation to stand at the judgment. If you have denied Him, He will deny you; and you, whom He died to Redeem and bring back to the glory of the Presence of the Father -in the regenerated version of your own individually designed human being body that He purchased back, on the cross, will be a cast away forever, in the outer darkness, where His light never shines for eternity. Having been made in His image, and personally designed before ever you came into being, from the first Adam, you will now exist forever; but denying His name is unpardonable forever, and so you will never know the glory of His presence that He came to cleanse your soul and redeem your body and spirit back to Himself for. I am redeemed, forever

So if you say Jesus is God. Amen, several scriptures come to mind.
If you say the Holy Spirit is A Person. Yes lots of scriptures too.
If you say Father is God,. No argument on that.
But if you say God is triune in Nature. Huh? Where’s the scriptures.

it is implied in the scriptures?
It is pre-supposed in the scriptures”
You have to connect the dots?
It is the logical conclusion?
Read between the lines?

I do not claim to fully understand the true nature of God.
It is not what I don’t understand in the bible that worry me
But the things that I understand.

And I understand God’s salvation plan for me and you.
So who is Jesus?
He is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.
The name that God has given under heaven and earth whereby man could be save.
This is all we need to know and believe in order for us to be saved.

Any denomination that requires Christians to also accept that god’s nature is triune in order to be saved is tragic.

[vicalcabasa]

Quote (epistemaniac @ July 27 2005,00:23)

“So if Jesus is called the Son of God, where did the title 2nd person of the trinity comes from? Is the revelation of the Bible not enough that we should coin another title or description for him? Or are we adding to the already revealed Word of God?” Don’t even start with the “that word or phrase is not found exactly in the Scripture, so it must be false” line of malarkey. Its fallacious reasoning of the worst sort. You use words and especially phrases to describe your views all the time, in fact in this very thread you spoke of “And this is my point, if I should make my own doctrine on Christology, this is the idea I will pursue”…… and let me tell you, if you didn’t already know, the word “Christology” is not in the Bible anywhere, so if you are free to use words to describe your faith, then it seems very hypocritical of you to not allow others the same privilege. blessings

hi epi,
no new doctrines for me, my point is lets stick to the revealed and complete word of god, the bible.

if we reject the bible scriptures as the source of all truth and sound doctrines and use extra biblical sources, then this what is going to happen. the truth of the scriptures will be open to all kind of interpretation and all sorts of strange doctrines will come up.

anyone who rejects this is because it does not suit well with their doctrines.

[vicalcabasa]

Quote (epistemaniac @ July 26 2005,22:26)

t8, you said “The point is that even if he were equal to God as you are saying then that shows that he is not God. If you are equal to anything then it shows that you are not that thing you are equal too.” Exactly! The point here is that while Jesus is equal to God in regard to His essence, He and the Father are not the same in identity. That is, the Father is not the Son. “E.g., If you come first EQUAL in a race, does that mean that both racers were the same person?” Faulty analogy. God’s nature is utterly unique as to His essence or nature, and thus any attempt to equate God’s nature  with a human footrace is bound to fall short, it happens rather quickly in this case. “If 1 bar of Gold is equal to $5000.00, then are they the same object? Of course not.” This is a confusion of categories. You are taking a physical object, in this case gold, and attempting to show that the ontological and metaphysical categories I am speaking in do not correspond. And while you are correct, it is also irrelevant. In this case a metaphysical being, a being that is spirit, can be spoken of as having one essence while this essence can be at the same time spoken of being in 3 persons without “breaking” the essence itself. And this is where your analogy falls apart, you can't speak of a physical object as being itself (A) and not being itself (~A) , for the object is restricted to a time and space existence, and thus a basic law of reasoning is the simple formula A is A. However, this particualr restriction does not apply to God, who is Spirit. In this case a certain being, whom we call “God”, we could say is A, while always being A in an absolute sense, A can remain A so long as when we speak of it in different ways (say B, C and D, or as Father, Son and Spirit) so long as when we speak of B, C and D we never say that A ceases to be A. The obvious point here is that God is A, and speaking of Him as Father, Son and Holy Spirit never, ever, means that we are have claimed to change the very nature of A to something it is not, ie non A. “If Yeshua is equal to God, then is he God? Of course not. He is like him. The fact that he is equal to God means that he is not God himself.” If Jesus is equal to God, then is He God? Of course. What you are doing is apparently failing to subjectively properly translate the term “God” to “Father”. The only way your sentence “If Yeshua is equal to God, then is he God?” …. could be not true is if we wrote something like “If Yeshua is equal to God, then is he the Father?” Then your answer “Of course not.” would be exactly correct. For Jesus is not in fact the Father. This error comes into Unitarian thinking so much that it is simply amazing. Partly this is due to attempts made to engage in equivocation of terms so as to try and make logical statements or concepts (A is A for instance) into illogical statements (ie the claim that A is A but then claiming that at the same time and in the same relationship A is non-A) . These attempts can probably effective in many cases, and this is sad because people may come away with the idea that you have made an important point when in reality all you have done is to have created a straw man, and then proceeded to knock it down. Feels pretty good I am sure, but really doesn’t accomplish anything meaningful. “Philippians 2:6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, The word “equal” in this verse is the Greek word “isos” which can mean   * similar in amount Or kind   * agree   * equal   * like This verse is simply saying that Jesus has the nature of God and is like God. This is what the rest of the New Testament teaches including John 1:1. Jesus is god (adjective, not noun) by class, not God (noun) in identity . God begat a son in his likeness, the likeness of himself, (Image of God, firstborn). Then through his son he made creation and us.” Yes, this verse is saying that Jesus has the nature of God, you are correct there. Where you fail to connect the dots is to make the natural step in reasoning which says that if Jesus has the same nature as God, He must in fact be God. Just as a human has a child that is of a like nature, so too, the only begotten Son is of the same nature as His Father. Simple really. You could see this obvious point if you would stop trying to read Scriptures through Unitarian shaded glasses. blessings

HI epi,

So using you’re reasoning, if a King has a child, he is the prince and they are both royals. And the prince is heir to the throne so you would treat the prince as you would the king.

But the King is not the prince and the prince is not the king.

But using your own words to reason.
“
Where you fail to connect the dots is to make the natural step in reasoning which says that if Jesus has the same nature as God, He must in fact be God” .

This would mean by your implication that the King is the prince and vice-versa. Which is not.

It does not add up.

And also here you admit that you arrive in the conclusion that god is triune in nature by CONNECTIONG THE DOT BY NATURAL STEP IN REASONING,

Its Not by scriptures but by DEDUCTION.

You declare that God is IMMUTABLE

But then go on to mutate god in 3 persons or is it being.

That is not logical.

You use logic only if it suits your beliefs
But ignored it when not.

This my friend is not a sincere attitude in seeking the truth.

[vicalcabasa]

Quote (Guest @ July 26 2005,17:02)

Quote (Guest @ July 26 2005,11:59) Main Entry: equal·i·ty Pronunciation: i-'kwä-l&-tE Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural -ties 1 : the quality or state of being equal 2 : EQUATION 2a Main Entry: 1equal Pronunciation: 'E-kw&l Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English, from Latin aequalis, from aequus level, equal 1 a (1) : of the same measure, quantity, amount, or number as another (2) : identical in mathematical value or logical denotation : EQUIVALENT b : like in quality, nature, or status c : like for each member of a group, class, or society 2 : regarding or affecting all objects in the same way : IMPARTIAL 3 : free from extremes: as a : tranquil in mind or mood b : not showing variation in appearance, structure, or proportion 4 a : capable of meeting the requirements of a situation or a task b : SUITABLE synonym see SAME 8 entries found for same. To select an entry, click on it.  same[1,adjective]same[2,pronoun]same[3,adverb]boat[1,noun]breathtar[2,transitive verb]time[1,noun]token[1,noun]   Main Entry: 1same Pronunciation: 'sAm Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English, from Old Norse samr; akin to Old High German sama same, Latin simulis like, simul together, at the same time, similis like, sem- one, Greek homos same, hama together, hen-, heis one 1 a : resembling in every relevant respect b : conforming in every respect — used with as 2 a : being one without addition, change, or discontinuance : IDENTICAL b : being the one under discussion or already referred to 3 : corresponding so closely as to be indistinguishable 4 : equal in size, shape, value, or importance — usually used with the or a demonstrative (as that, those) in all senses synonyms SAME, SELFSAME, VERY, IDENTICAL, EQUIVALENT, EQUAL mean not different or not differing from one another. SAME may imply and SELFSAME always implies that the things under consideration are one thing and not two or more things . VERY, like SELFSAME, may imply identity, or, like SAME, may imply likeness in kind . IDENTICAL may imply selfsameness or suggest absolute agreement in all details . EQUIVALENT implies amounting to the same thing in worth or significance . EQUAL implies being identical in value, magnitude, or some specified quality . YHWH, ELOHIM created all things in heaven and earth in six days, all the host of them, both the spiritual realm and the physical realm were created in the six days, both the angelic beings who inhabit the spiritual realm and the sun, moon and stars, were created in the six days by YHWH Elohim. In the created heaven, He created a throne, and on that throne, YHWH of hosts reigned in glory over His creation from the beginning, in the only similitude visible to angels or Adam kind, the second Person of the YHWH of hosts, who came down from that throne in His glory to come ‘incarnate‘ in the New Man, the Israel Man human body that was prepared for Him by His Spirit, the third Person of the YHWH of hosts, and prepared in the womb of the virgin for His habitation as the Human who would be the Redeemer-Kinsman of the Adam and the Adam‘s dominion that YHWH had given the Adam. If Nick  would be schooled in the word of God -from the beginning- he'd know the truth about the prepared throne in the created heaven and Who it is who sat there and came incarnate and ascended in the New creation human body, of the New Man, the Israel, who is still 'in flesh' in His human habitation that He humbled Himself to inhabit as a servant for our salvation for those of us who are Believers in Him, Who is the 'Fellow' with the Father. The throne of God is now occupied by a human being, who is YHWH of hosts incarnate, and glorified; it is the throne that He sat upon as YHWH of hosts from the creation of that throne in the created heaven. When He takes His great power and reigns over this earth as the Son of Man, when He returns on His throne of glory, then He will sit upon the throne of David, the throne of Firstborn that has been promised since the beginning that He inherits as the  Only begotten human being, of the Father.

Hi IST,

This is not scriptures. It sounded more like a narrative based on the bible.
And my always question is ..

Do you really have to change terminologies and words originally used by the scriptures?

The only begotten human being of the father?????

Remember. A little yeast corrupts the whole dough.

And a little variation can corrupt the truth.

[vicalcabasa]

Quote (Guest @ July 26 2005,21:40)

Quote (epistemaniac @ July 26 2005,21:22) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 26 2005,05:34) Hi E, “He did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped” Now simple reading of that phrase suggests he is not currently equal wiith God. It suggests he has to grasp equality to have it. Certainly the greek supports that idea as 'Hapazo” and it's related greek words means to “take by force”, to “steal” or “rob” or “pillage”-all words that suggest violence and taking what does not belong by right. Do those phrases suit your view of the nature of Christ? Is he not meek and humble of heart? Is he not submissive and obedient?. How anyone can read this verse and read it as the Christ having equality with God and deciding not to hold on to it beats me. the simple reading is that since He is equal to God, He does not need to grasp after equality, as it is already His…. Exodus 24: 9 Then Moses went up, also Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, 10 and they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very heavens in its clarity. 11 But on the nobles of the children of Israel He did not lay His hand. So they saw God, and they ate and drank. The God who is YHWH of hosts who was to come (Jesus Christ), is the God in whose image Adam was made. The word declares that Adam was made in the image and likeness of God, who was to come, the YHWH of hosts incarnate -that means ‘in flesh‘. When He, YHWH of hosts -the second Person of the One YHWH, who was Himself the glory of God-  came, He came in the likeness of sinful flesh, but without sin, as the Firstborn of the New Man creation, the Israel-kind, brother to Adam and Adam’s legal Kinsman-Redeemer who had the legal right by birth -from the virgin woman’s womb- and the power of Life in Himself, to redeem his brother, Adam: and Adam’s seed, and all Adam’s lost corrupted cursed kingdom that the Father had given Adam and Adam had sold into sin and slavery (Adam’s fall brought the curse to his entire kingdom also, and it needed redemption).. ““““““““ Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. Adam, the first human, is the figure of Him that was to come; that One who was to come is YHWH of hosts, the second Person of the YHWH, who sat upon His created throne in His created heaven as the glory of God in Person. “““““““ Jam 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. We were made in the likeness of God for the purpose of being temples for His Presence of glory to inhabit, as sons of Elohim.  ““““` Num 12:6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, [and] will speak unto him in a dream. Num 12:7 My servant Moses [is] not so, who [is] faithful in all mine house. Num 12:8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?  YHWH of hosts spoke to Moses, mouth to mouth, and Moses saw His likeness -His similitude. ~~~~~~~~~` 1Cr 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover [his] head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. Adam was made in the image and glory of God, as Elohim’s son, and the glory has departed, with which the Adam was crowned, and that is the first death that brought physical death upon the Adam, so that he would not live forever in the cursed clay vessel, humiliated, shamed, glory-less; but the glory is what the Last Adam came to Ransom us back for, for the Father. ~~~~~~~~~ Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; -Jesus; YESHUA, came to redeem us back for glory. ~~~~~~~~~ Ezekiel saw the similitude of YHWH, the Pre-incarnate LORD Jesus Christ in His glory on His throne and returning to the millennial temple in Jerusalem in the Person of the risen glorified LORD Jesus Christ. Eze 1:26 And above 04605 the firmament 07549 that [was] over their heads 07218 [was] the likeness 01823 of a throne 03678, as the appearance 04758 of a sapphire 05601 stone 068: and upon the likeness 01823 of the throne 03678 [was] the likeness 01823 as the appearance 04758 of a man 0120 above 04605 upon it. Eze 1:28 As the appearance 04758 of the bow 07198 that is in the cloud 06051 in the day 03117 of rain 01653, so [was] the appearance 04758 of the brightness 05051 round about 05439. This [was] the appearance 04758 of the likeness 01823 of the glory 03519 of the LORD 03068. And when I saw 07200 [it], I fell 05307 upon my face 06440, and I heard 08085 a voice 06963 of one that spake 01696 . Eze 8:2 Then I beheld 07200 , and lo a likeness 01823 as the appearance 04758 of fire 0784: from the appearance 04758 of his loins 04975 even downward 04295, fire 0784; and from his loins 04975 even upward 04605, as the appearance 04758 of brightness 02096, as the colour 05869 of amber 02830. Eze 8:4 And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel [was] there, according to the vision that I saw in the plain. Eze 10:1 Then I looked 07200 , and, behold, in the firmament 07549 that was above the head 07218 of the cherubims 03742 there appeared 07200 over them as it were a sapphire 05601 stone 068, as the appearance 04758 of the likeness 01823 of a throne 03678. [had] the writer's inkhorn by his side; Eze 10:19 And the cherubims lifted up their wings, and mounted up from the earth in my sight: when they went out, the wheels also [were] beside them, and [every one] stood at the door of the east gate of the LORD'S house; and the glory of the God of Israel [was] over them above. Eze 11:22 Then did the cherubims lift up their wings, and the wheels beside them; and the glory of the God of Israel [was] over them above. Eze 43:2 And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east: and his voice [was] like a noise of many waters: and the earth shined with his glory. Jesus returns in Person in Ezekiel 43 to sit upon His throne in the rebuilt temple as God in flesh, YHWH of hosts incarnate. ~“` Gen 1:26 And God 0430 said 0559 , Let us make 06213 man 0120 in our image 06754, after our likeness 01823: and let them have dominion 07287 over the fish 01710 of the sea 03220, and over the fowl 05775 of the air 08064, and over the cattle 0929, and over all the earth 0776, and over every creeping thing 07431 that creepeth 07430 upon the earth 0776. Gen 5:1 This 02088 [is] the book 05612 of the generations 08435 of Adam 0121. In the day 03117 that God 0430 created 01254 man 0120, in the likeness 01823 of God 0430 made 06213 he him; ~~~~~~~~~~~~ If we receive Jesus Christ as LORD and Savior, repent of our sins and call upon His name, He will give us His spirit of regeneration and we shall be resurrected in His image. Psa 17:15 As for me, I will behold 02372 thy face 06440 in righteous ness 06664: I shall be satisfied 07646 , when I awake 06974 , with thy likeness 08544. His purpose in coming is to bring us back to the glory we first housed, in our being, and that is the Redemption He finished the work for, by the blood of the New Man, YHWH of Hosts incarnate -in flesh- shed upon the altar of sacrificew, the cross: He is our God who has become our YESHUA; our YHWH in flesh -who has come to rescue His own. Jam 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

Hi B,

That’s strange. I always thought that it was the God’s Son who died for us.

[vicalcabasa]

Quote (Cubes @ July 26 2005,18:13)

Quote (Guest @ July 24 2005,23:29) Quote (vicalcabasa @ July 24 2005,17:04) You don't count your WORD as another person, do you?  Do people relate to your WORD in one way and to you in another way? The simple answer of course is both NO. So what do we have here? We have one God, One Person Speaking. Just one and only God speaking all things into existence. Isn’t that how John 1 said it about the LOGOS of God? That all things were created through him? Remember Genesis 1? And GOD SAID let there be ….. So there is no triune mystery in the being of god. HE came from God and returned to God just as what the bible said. John 1 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. Use of personal pronouns = a person. To Guest:  Yes, Jesus is a person.   To Vic:  True that, Jesus proceeds from God being begotten of him, and has now returned to be with the God who spoke him into being and begat him…sitting at God's right hand like it is written… even in John 1:1!  He is with God and is not the God that he is with!

yes, i never meant the word of god as an inanimate thing.

He is a person, but the idea still remains.

he was from the father, we was with the father and he is of the father's.

[vicalcabasa]

Quote (Cubes @ July 26 2005,18:13)

Quote (Guest @ July 24 2005,23:29) Quote (vicalcabasa @ July 24 2005,17:04) You don't count your WORD as another person, do you?  Do people relate to your WORD in one way and to you in another way? The simple answer of course is both NO. So what do we have here? We have one God, One Person Speaking. Just one and only God speaking all things into existence. Isn’t that how John 1 said it about the LOGOS of God? That all things were created through him? Remember Genesis 1? And GOD SAID let there be ….. So there is no triune mystery in the being of god. HE came from God and returned to God just as what the bible said. John 1 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. Use of personal pronouns = a person. To Guest:  Yes, Jesus is a person.   To Vic:  True that, Jesus proceeds from God being begotten of him, and has now returned to be with the God who spoke him into being and begat him…sitting at God's right hand like it is written… even in John 1:1!  He is with God and is not the God that he is with!

yes, i never meant it to sound the word of god as an inanimate thing.

though the point i was making is quite clear.

[vicalcabasa]

Quote (epistemaniac @ July 26 2005,05:26)

vic, a passage that speaks of the equality of the Son with the Father is (Phil 2:6 NASB)  “who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,” Jesus existed in the form of God…. pretty straightforward right? “Christ existed in the “form of God” (morphe, Gk., v. 6) which signifies the nature of God, His character, the very essence of His deity. “Did not consider it robbery to be equal with God” (v. 6) is an expression which means “did not think it necessary to grasp at deity.” No ambition to become God could plague Christ since He was in fact God! He, therefore, did not give up His deity, but He did, for a time, surrender His heavenly glory. The Lord Jesus as the possessor of divine essence takes the “form of a bondservant” (v. 7) (morphen doulou, Gk., lit. “the nature or essence of a slave”). He sets aside His divine glory, but not His divine nature, and takes upon Himself the true attributes of man. As Christ preexisted in the “form of God,” He then took upon Himself the “likeness of men.” His humanity is real; yet His being is still that of deity. The incarnation was not a subtraction of deity, but an addition of humanity. Christ sets aside the outward expression of His deity when expressing Himself as a bondservant. The purpose for this obedience and emptying is stated with clarity. Jesus humbled Himself to become obedient unto the death of the cross. Once again the preeminence of the atonement and consequent salvation is emphasized by the Scriptures.” (Believer's Study Bible) Looking at your points, one by one though, just to see if they actually provide any documentation against the equality in nature between the Father and the Son, its easy to see that your points are all very easily refuted….. 1.  “ I was brought forth …” The wisdom of God speaking in prov 8 2.   I came from the Father 3.   The Father has sent me 4.   The Father is greater than I 5.   God and Father above all 6.   Christ being subjected to God 7.   Christ sitting in the right hand of God. 8.   The Spirit going forth from the Father 9.   The Father created all things thru Him 10.  HE was at the bosom of the Father Every one of these points is refuted by the very next verses after the one I quoted above: (Phil 2:7-8 NASB)  “but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. {8} And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.” Do you see that? Christ willingly submitted Himself to a position of humility, so every one of your points is answered by the fact that during the incarnation, the Son placed Himself in a place of humility. But this fact does nothing to His ontological status, all your allusions point to differences in economy, differences in roles, not to differences in essence. The Bible says (Col 2:9 NASB)  “For in Him all the fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form,” See that? ALL…. ALL…. ALL.. the fullness of deity is in Christ… all that it means to be deity is in Him, He is what God is. The Bible says (Heb 1:8 NKJV)  “But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.” See that? The Son is called “God”, can’t get much plainer than that. blessings

I checked Phil 2:6 from a Trinitarian bible commentator. He said the passage means God and Jesus are equally divine. (wycliffe’s)

But okay given, JESUS Possesses Attributes Which Only God Has
HE has Names and titles of deity.
He received worship, and don’t mind if Thomas called him my God.
And God called him God (The LORD said to his Son, Thy throne O God…)

But on the same breath he was always quick to say that father is greater. He will always depict himself as subject to the father, his God.
And Jesus is not the Father whom he called the true God
So clearly by his own declaration Jesus is not the one true God but possess all the quality of being such.

HAVE you also wondered why throughout the Bible the main titles of JESUS from yesterday (pre-existent/OT) today (NT) and forever (REV) are

The Word of God
The Son of God
The Lamb of God

How come his main titles were always “OF GOD” and not God itself?
And the scriptures never plainly taught that Jesus is GOD himself or else there would be no discussion like this.

Is it because the Bible doesn’t want us to err that Christianity is polytheistic, in different form with Christian labels?

How do we reconcile these scriptures?

And this is my point, if I should make my own doctrine on Christology, this is the idea I will pursue.

JESUS is the ALTER EGO of the INVISIBLE, UNAPPROACHABLE, SPIRIT GOD over His creation.

To my mind this will solve a lot of problems why Jesus is God and not “the God” at the same time WITHOUT VIOLATING THE IMMUTABILITY OF ONE GOD.

But then again, if I would just simply accept the doctrine that the bible had already established for us,  I would just simply accept and believe its description, that…

JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD.

And if you believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God…

Let God be true and all men….opinion makers.

So if Jesus is called the Son of God, where did the title 2nd person of the trinity comes from?
Is the revelation of the Bible not enough that we should coin another title or description for him? Or are we adding to the already revealed Word of God?

[vicalcabasa]

You’re beliefs are well crafted and very elaborate. I give that to you. But all of this is still founded in your view that The Father is equal to the Son and equal to the Spirit. Three beings in one Godhead.

Let me enumerate some popular passages…

1.  “ I was brought forth …” The wisdom of God speaking in prov 8
2.   I came from the Father
3.   The Father has sent me
4.   The Father is greater than I
5.   God and Father above all
6.   Christ being subjected to God
7.   Christ sitting in the right hand of God.
8.   The Spirit going forth from the Father
9.   The Father created all things thru Him
10.  HE was at the bosom of the Father

These were the WORDS the BIBLE used to describe Jesus with relation to the Father?

Do the verses above convey equality?  Do we understand Jesus the way the writers of the bible understood them? Honestly not. And yet the bible chose to use those words. (The verses seem more likely to convey that the spirit and the word came out from God, NOT as if the three were standing side by side as the trinity would convey)

2 Tim 2:2
2 And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable men who will also be qualified to teach others NIV

What’s wrong if we teach these exactly as they were written?

Why teach a “version” of the message of the bible by teaching with words like co-equal, 1st person, 2nd person, 3rd person, and trinity? The Bible never used these words. It is coined by men. Therefore its human teachings, not the bible’s.

1 John 1:3-4
We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4. NIV

Jesus said that he came that we may know the Father, The One True God and that we may understand Him.

Now you have a doctrine that say God is One in three beings. But they are not really three but one. You see how difficult and complicated the doctrine has sounded to be?

So a little yeast can corrupt the whole dough.

Let’s all keep searching for the truth continually learning to properly divide the word of God.

[vicalcabasa]

Quote (Guest @ July 25 2005,06:32)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 25 2005,05:30) Hi, So our new heavenly body is like to his, cut and torn and punctured? That does not seem like an imperishable body to me. 1Cor 15.50 ” Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable” Jesus Christ was flesh and blood like us. He needed to eat and drink and rest and sleep. That was not the heavenly body but one just like ours. No he fully shared our status as man in a natural perishable body till he was resurrected up to the Father. Nick, He was bruised for us, we will not be bruised. He has the scars, not the bleeding wounds. We get our own body regenerated in His image and likeness, and that is the adoption. The nation of Israel will look upon His scars and ask Him where He got them when they return to Him. Jesus is the flesh, then we are the spirit of antichrist. He rose in the same body that he came human blood. But the Adam kind, called the flesh and blood of the passage, the perishable, the will not inherit the kingdom of God. “Handle me and see that it is I myself, for a spirit does not have flesh”. His body did not perish and could not perish, as there was no sin in it and no defilement of the clay of this cursed creation. He had life in Himself, as the YHWH of hosts incarnate, and did not need to eat oif the tree of life as Adam did. When the pre-incarnate LORD Jesus Christ came to destroy Sodom He ate meat, bread, butter and milk, with Abraham. When He rose from the dead He ate and drank with the disciples and showed Hiumself alive by many infallible proofs. Angels eat,

Heb 4:15
15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are-yet was without sin.
NIV

Heb 2:14-18
14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death-that is, the devil- 15

18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.
NIV

The bible said that Jesus was human in all respect just like us, feels hungry, has emotions, gets tired and grew old. He was fully human. Any doctrines that teach otherwise is antichrist. The difference is he never gave in to temptations that is why he is sinless and therefore an acceptable sacrifice to God for the forgiveness of our sins.

The bible said his body will not see decay and rightly so because before it could be, on the third day God raised him up from the dead. The resurrected body was same in appearance but definitely not in substance. Because the resurrected body of Jesus Christ now can defy laws of physics. He can at will appear and disappear. He can walk through rooms though all passages were closed.

Though before the resurrection he worked miracles that defy physical laws, he made it clear that this is by faith. But the post resurrected body defy physics because his body now has a different nature, but he said that that body is not yet it. He would assume a glorified body once he gets back to the father. He just appeared like this so that the disciples would believe him, that though we die we shall also live if we believe in him.

But also remember that he has a glorified body even before the resurrection. Peter, James and John were witnesses to that in the mount of transfiguration. And when he ascended to heaven he has also a different glorious appearance as was described by john in the book of revelation.

And when he returned, we will see him as he is, and share his glory, his life, his nature and his inheritance.

[vicalcabasa]

So the bible is right!

One God and Father of all

One Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ

and One Spirit united .

but not the 3 in 1 variety.

[vicalcabasa]

Quote (Cubes @ July 23 2005,22:54)

Quote (Guest @ July 23 2005,18:11) Quote (vicalcabasa @ July 23 2005,10:05) Quote (Cubes @ July 22 2005,20:19) You don't count your spirit as another person, do you?  Do people relate to your spirit in one way and to you in another way? hi cubes, I think IAR should really answer this question. I thought I had made plain the sense. Adam is created in the image and likeness of God (but is now a dead to God temple). Adam is a living soul, with a spirit (made for the habitation of his Presence of glory) and inhabiting a human body of clay. Adam is the name of the entire race of human beings created as a triune being in the beginning. Hi IAR: Sorry, I still don't get how that relates to your spirit and how others perceive you?

And Cubes…

If we apply the same question to the Word of God. If I may

You don't count your WORD as another person, do you?  Do people relate to your WORD in one way and to you in another way?

The simple answer of course is both NO.
So what do we have here?

We have one God, One Person Speaking.

Just one and only God speaking all things into existence.

Isn’t that how John 1 said it about the LOGOS of God?

That all things were created through him?

Remember Genesis 1?

And GOD SAID let there be …..

So there is no triune mystery in the being of god.

HE came from God and returned to God just as what the bible said.

[vicalcabasa]

Quote (Guest @ July 23 2005,17:18)

His goings forth have been from everlasting -from eternity- says God; and only God inhabits eternity; all other creatures whom He created have their dwelling place created for them to inhabit; but eternity has no beginning, for God inhabits eternity, and God has no beginning; and from eternity, YHWH of hosts has gone forth; and in His goings forth He has gone forth as YHWH of hosts who sat upon His throne of glory –

hi (,

i agree that his going forth is from eternity.
that is the when of his going forth.

but if he has a going forth, from  what, where or whom is that going forth?

[vicalcabasa]

Quote (Cubes @ July 22 2005,20:19)

You don't count your spirit as another person, do you?  Do people relate to your spirit in one way and to you in another way?

hi cubes,

I think IAR should really answer this question.

[vicalcabasa]

Hi I am redeemed,

You're understanding of the verse Here o Israel, the LORD our GOD is ONE LORD, is there are three divine beings in these phrase if are to look to its original hebrew wordings.

How come the jews have never understood it that way afterall it was their native language.? never explained it that way. never teach it that way. even up to the time of jesus or up to now.

[vicalcabasa]

Quote (liljon @ July 22 2005,17:31)

Spirit is Person. The bible describes him as one. Jesus is YHWH because The bible says he is.

hi i,

isn't it that the Holy Spirit derives it personality and divinity from the FAther?

[vicalcabasa]

Quote (Guest @ July 22 2005,20:41)

Please note: YHWH of hosts is sent by YHWH of hosts, and YHWH of hosts is coming to dwell in your midst (in Jerusalem); sent by YHWH of hosts. If you deny this, then are you claiming a created angel is YHWH of hosts, sent by YHWH of hosts? So you have two Persons, YHWH of hosts, one sent, the other sends. One comes, the other does not come.

hi,

so one YWHW is Jesus pre incarnate. so how did YWHW of Host (JESUS pre-incarnate) came into being? can you tell.

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