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[trettep]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 06 2005,07:32)

Hi eliyah, You really seem to get stuck in a groove do you not? You define sin and lawlessness according to your views and then try to force these views down everybody's throats. You really need to lighten up and realise the Saviour brought a good news message and not your doom and gloom miseries.

Eliyah defined sin just as the scripture has it. Sin is the transgression of the law.

Eliyah, I have been watching this debate. You acknowledge that we are not to sin. I agree. Another sin is to quarrel. When debate become such it become sin.

In understanding the law one should consider a speed limit law for example. The intent of the speed limit law is to reduce injury and death on the highways. That intent would be the Spirit of the Speed limit law. The letter of the speed limit law is something like thou shall not go over 55 miles per hour. So if one is driving in their car and a truck tire comes off and is rapidly rolling towards them and that person in the car decides to break the letter to keep from being injured then they fullfill the intent of the law even though they broke the letter of the law.

Paul says that by Faith we establish the Law. What Paul is saying is similiar to my analogy above. That if we walk in the Spirit we establish the law because we achieve the purpose behind the letter. To give you an idea of what the Pharisees did wrong – consider again the speed limit law above. The Pharisees would have considered the one that broke the letter guilty even though they fulfilled the intent of the law (Spirit). They would have had no mercy. This is what is meant when Jesus said to think not that He came to abolish the law but that He came to fullfill the law. This is what Jesus did. Now the letter of the law is for those under sin – again its sin that is the transgression of the law. But this doesn't mean that Jesus got rid of sin – if it did that would mean that anyone could do anything and not sin. Additionally, why would anyone need to be washed by Jesus blood if sin was done away with. Its by Faith in Jesus blood that one can be saved.

I hope that everyone understands this as its an important topic. Those that are to take part in the first resurrection are to be kings and priests.

Paul

[trettep]

Hi everyone. I have studyed this subject a lot lately and think I stumbled onto a way to understand this more. Think about John 1:1:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Now consider this which isn't in the Bible but evidence of God's work:

In the beginning was the Rib, and the Rib was with Adam, and the Rib was Adam.

In other words I'm drawing a parrallel with the physical creation which is created and not eternal with that which is the spiritual which is eternal. Just as we have an Old Covenant of the flesh we have a New Covenant of the Spirit.

Adam and Eve are said to be of one Flesh. I believe the Word and the Father are one Spirit.

Just trying to give some food for thought.

Paul

[trettep]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 23 2005,03:05)

Quote (trettep @ May 23 2005,00:02) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 22 2005,23:04) Hi trettep, We are only here to search out and share truth as we find it in the bible. There is always dross and we should expect it as we are all human. Perfection is not of our natural capacity and to strive for it in our own strength only leads to frustration. Nick,  Don't put obstacles in others way by telling them that the verses don't say what they do say.  This is the purpose of rebuke – such that one will turn and move toward their hope of salvation and away from fullfilling the lusts of the flesh and other selfish desires. Paul Hi Trettep, Please tell me which scriptures I have denied and I will look at them again. I do get tired of those who tell me a scripture means something and when I analyse it find that instead they have read between the lines and found meanings that are not stated. Then they attack me for not agreeing with them! They have gone from faith into presumption or speculation. Accuracy is essential as this is precious material not to be added to by man.

Nick,

We are warned about people like you in the Bible. I have strongly rebuked you as I should. You have some problems that need to be addressed and I hope you do. I will be avoiding your forum until which time you can come back to Jesus and reverend the Word of God. But I can't help you further if you are going to distort the Word of God. I'm afraid that your intimidated in some manner by the knowledge given to me and its causing you to sin. Because I care for you I remove myself. I hope others reading this will come to your aid – maybe the barrier will be removed and they can reach out to you and give you the help you need.

Paul

[trettep]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 23 2005,00:10)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 22 2005,01:08) Quote (trettep @ May 21 2005,23:06) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 21 2005,22:40) Hi trettep, We know from Genesis God commanded Adam and spoke to Adam. Adam knew who his father was and knew his Father. There is little evidence he knew the thoughts of God or followed those thoughts or instructions. Certainly it does not say man had the Holy Spirit. Instead we are compared with animals-both given life by the breath of God. Do you agree animals do not have the Holy Spirit? As Paul told the Athenians God is close to every man and Genesis says “the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters”.But scripture does not say man was made “with the Holy Spirit”. I believe Adam was like any natural man and had no inherent advantage ,as you seem to suggest, over any man born now. Nick, Rom 8:14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Luk 3:38  Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God. Paul Hi, Does scripture say ” all who are sons of God have the Spirit of God”? No Does scripture say “all who have the Spirit of God are sons of God”? No Scripture says “all who are LED by the Spirit of God are sons of God.” So you have reversed the scripture and reduced it and yet claim it shows your meaning. It does not. Scripture says there are other sons of God in Job 1,2 and 38. Do you say they also must have the Spirit of God? Are they not greater than Adam, a mere man? Or, because you say Adam had the Spirit you also claim he was as great as Jesus and greater than the angels? Does everyone who has the Spirit follow the Spirit? No some will lose the Spirit as Revelation tells us. You cannot twist scripture safely, trettep, though I am sure you did it out of ignorance. trettep, I would ask you to look again at what I said here if you love the Word as you claim you do and I do not. Take your time and please do not divert into bluster or accusation but honestly look at my reply and answer it line by line.

Nick,

Now your saying that Not all Sons of God have the Holy Spirit. Now your saying that not all who have the Spirit of God are the Sons of God.

Think about that Nick.

Paul

[trettep]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 22 2005,23:04)

Hi trettep, We are only here to search out and share truth as we find it in the bible. There is always dross and we should expect it as we are all human. Perfection is not of our natural capacity and to strive for it in our own strength only leads to frustration.

Nick,

Don't put obstacles in others way by telling them that the verses don't say what they do say. This is the purpose of rebuke – such that one will turn and move toward their hope of salvation and away from fullfilling the lusts of the flesh and other selfish desires.

Paul

[trettep]

Nick,

I'm not sure who is “us” in your statement. I look out for humility and should also. I don't set myself up for a model of humility but I'm trying to as you should be also. You should be a model of everything that Jesus is. That is the purpose of man. Nick, for all I know God has hardened your heart to test me. Therefore, I better pass the test – likewise don't you think you be as wise in your perception of me?

Paul

[trettep]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 22 2005,20:39)

Quote (trettep @ May 22 2005,13:20) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 22 2005,08:08) Quote (trettep @ May 22 2005,02:18) Nick,  I rebuked you from the Word of God and you denied every verse was valid. Then you say: “Scriptural evidence is preferable to human inference as in all these matters.” Tit 1:16  They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. Nick – that verse reminds me of you.  You are professing to know God but deny him.  When you deny the Word of God – you deny Jesus.  You can't say that a verse doesn't say what it clearly says.  If you have a problem with translation or understanding a word then its understandable.  But to say that it doesn't mean what it says is denial. Now I have rebuked you sharply in order that you might look at those verses again and evaluate them – look for the Truth and have zeal for it.  If the verses don't say what you want them to say – its not the Word of God's fault.  Its your failure in understanding.  The Word of God is not to conform to you – but you to the Word of God.   Paul No trettep, I do not deny the Word of God. I deny your speculations and teachings which do not line up with the Word of God in my view. As usual you seem to show yourself as unteachable and intransigient in your views and we again have to agree to disagree..OK? Nick, You did deny it.  You denied the verses said what they said.  You didn't say you didn't understand them or know their meaning.  You attacked the credibility of the verses saying they couldn't be so.  Here, I am giving you very useful instruction on the topic and points to consider.  You don't reply with any refutable verses that are strong enough to counter the verses I supplied.  You then get mad and discounted the very verses I gave you and said they didn't say what they said.  That is denial!   Now, I don't know your motives Nick but if you don't like me and therefore attack the Truth – do you think your doing yourself good?  Would you let your dislike for someone fester up inside you and commit you to argue against the Word of God?  I sure hope that is not the case.  If you truely wish to learn Nick then you need to re-evaluate your acceptance of the Truth!  You can dislike me all you want – I'm very use to it.  If I disliked you Nick – which I don't, – I would never let you cause me to sin or error against the Truth.  I say it because I care.  I don't understand your motives otherwise – maybe your trying to protect what you know and because I posted something that counters it – you therefore attack it instead of investigating it.  I'm not sure.  You must always accept the Truth and not just when its convienient for you. Paul Hi trettep, You seem to define TRUTH as yourself and take personally any suggestion that such is not the case. I have no reason to dislike you or even get angry with you and I am sure if you reread my posts my only problem is your loose and cavalier attitude to scripture and your need to teach when you yet have so much to learn.

No Nick, God manifested the Truth in Jesus Christ who is the Word of God. The very thing that you put no trust in. For if you had you would have revered the very verses that I presented to you and investigated those things whether what they said was true instead of saying that what clearly is said it not so.

Additionally, I humble myself and admit when I error and give others thanks for showing me the Truth – something you should take note of.

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….8;st=50

You should do the same to thank others for showing you the truth. Its easy to get exhalted by the truth and everyone needs humility.

Paul

[trettep]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 22 2005,20:33)

Quote (trettep @ May 22 2005,13:05) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 22 2005,08:04) Quote (trettep @ May 22 2005,00:53) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 22 2005,00:16) Hi trettep, The evidence that Adam had the Holy Spirit is not shown by fruit in his actions. Nor is it shown in scripture but you have inferred it from the fact he is said to be a son of God. Should you not rely on scriptural evidence? Why does God not say he blew the Holy Spirit into him instead of “the breath of God” which we share with the animals? James called Abraham our father[2.21] Was he a child of Abraham? Scripture says he is because he is a descendant. So also with Paul in Romans 4.12. Neither did Jesus dispute that the Jews were sons of Abraham by descent[Jn 8.39]. But they followed another father by their actions and that is more important to God. Are we children of Adam? Because of him we are all condemned to die unless we join with the only begotten Son of God.We are sons of Adam which makes us, by the principles of scripture, sons of God. But that odes not give us the Spirit. We must be born again of Water and the Spirit to receive our new adoption as sons of God. Nick,  I resent you calling what God created inperfect but I know its only because you lack knowledge.  For you say that scripture is incorrect and argue against scripture saying it didn't apply in that case.  I think your have a problem and can't admit that your wrong.   For if Adam didn't have the Holy Spirit then you paint him as carnally created and at emnity against God not able to even fullfil the commandments given to him by God.  For everyone knows that carnal man could not do the works of righteousness.  Therefore, you make God out to perform functions in vain.  You deny that Adam was given a chance to fullfill righteousness.  My advice to you is to repent.  I'm here to help if you desire. Paul Hi trettep, Gen 1.31 ” God saw all that He had made, and behold it was very good” Not perfect. Very good. Where does it say “perfect”? I would like to gain this knowledge which you say I lack. I will believe that Adam had the Holy Spirit as soon as you can show me that it is written. What works of righteousness did this “spiritual” man do? You must know of some to make this statement surely? Actually scripture does not say he was a spiritual man but a natural man, and earthy man. 1Cor 15.45 ” So it is written 'The first man Adam became a living soul' The last Adam became a life giving spirit. However the spiritual is not first, but the NATURAL:then the spiritual.THE FIRST MAN IS FROM THE EARTH, EARTHY: the second man is from heaven. As is the EARTHY, so also are those who are earthy;and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. Just as we have borne the image of the EARTHY, we will also bear the image of the heavenly” Nick,  “good” is perfect – from God.   Gen 1:4  And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. Is the Light not “perfect” either? This a flaw you seem to have Nick.  You think God can do imperfection. Paul Hi trettep, Clearly you are unaware that God has defined three standards in scripture and “good” does not mean “perfect” Rom 12.1f ” Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is that which is GOOD and ACCEPTABLE and PERFECT.” Jesus was truly humble of heart and though he was the Holy one of God said of the Father ” there is only One who is good”

No Nick – your wrong! There is only one outcome of what God does and that is perfection. Those words are ALL describing God's will.

Paul

[trettep]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 22 2005,09:32)

Quote (trettep @ May 22 2005,02:18) Nick,  I rebuked you from the Word of God and you denied every verse was valid. Then you say: “Scriptural evidence is preferable to human inference as in all these matters.” Tit 1:16  They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. Nick – that verse reminds me of you.  You are professing to know God but deny him.  When you deny the Word of God – you deny Jesus.  You can't say that a verse doesn't say what it clearly says.  If you have a problem with translation or understanding a word then its understandable.  But to say that it doesn't mean what it says is denial. Now I have rebuked you sharply in order that you might look at those verses again and evaluate them – look for the Truth and have zeal for it.  If the verses don't say what you want them to say – its not the Word of God's fault.  Its your failure in understanding.  The Word of God is not to conform to you – but you to the Word of God.   Paul Hi trettep, Tit 1.10f-2.1 ” For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers….To the pure all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled. They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed But for you, speak the things which are fitting for sound doctrine.” You say these words apply to me? Perhaps you know me or my fruit to say such things? Surely you would not apply those verses to me on the basis of my words alone? On the basis of my honest search for biblically supportable doctrine rather than vain speculation and personal spiritual revelation? Clearly you have great personal confidence in your own standing before God to make such judgements. God bless you trettep.

Nick,

 You arguing with yourself as I never wrote all the rest of those verses.  I also don't believe the rest of those fitting to you either.  Look at my post you will see I only said your state reminds me of one verse in that chapter:

Tit 1:16  They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

That is only 1 verse.  I then I said you remind me of that verse.  I believe you to profess that you know God and I have observed you deny him (The Word of God).  As for the rest of that verse – I know not wether those things be applicable to you.

Also, Nick – I observed those things I mentioned and have been instructed by the Word of God to rebuke those that do such (and I have and am doing so). I also desire that someone rebuke me in the same manner. Rebuke is an act of love. When one puts their hand on the burner – the pain is their friend to save the hand. Now if this rebuke causes you grief then you understand not that I'm trying to keep you from denying the Truth.

Paul

[trettep]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 22 2005,08:08)

Quote (trettep @ May 22 2005,02:18) Nick,  I rebuked you from the Word of God and you denied every verse was valid. Then you say: “Scriptural evidence is preferable to human inference as in all these matters.” Tit 1:16  They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. Nick – that verse reminds me of you.  You are professing to know God but deny him.  When you deny the Word of God – you deny Jesus.  You can't say that a verse doesn't say what it clearly says.  If you have a problem with translation or understanding a word then its understandable.  But to say that it doesn't mean what it says is denial. Now I have rebuked you sharply in order that you might look at those verses again and evaluate them – look for the Truth and have zeal for it.  If the verses don't say what you want them to say – its not the Word of God's fault.  Its your failure in understanding.  The Word of God is not to conform to you – but you to the Word of God.   Paul No trettep, I do not deny the Word of God. I deny your speculations and teachings which do not line up with the Word of God in my view. As usual you seem to show yourself as unteachable and intransigient in your views and we again have to agree to disagree..OK?

Nick,

You did deny it. You denied the verses said what they said. You didn't say you didn't understand them or know their meaning. You attacked the credibility of the verses saying they couldn't be so. Here, I am giving you very useful instruction on the topic and points to consider. You don't reply with any refutable verses that are strong enough to counter the verses I supplied. You then get mad and discounted the very verses I gave you and said they didn't say what they said. That is denial!

Now, I don't know your motives Nick but if you don't like me and therefore attack the Truth – do you think your doing yourself good? Would you let your dislike for someone fester up inside you and commit you to argue against the Word of God? I sure hope that is not the case. If you truely wish to learn Nick then you need to re-evaluate your acceptance of the Truth! You can dislike me all you want – I'm very use to it. If I disliked you Nick – which I don't, – I would never let you cause me to sin or error against the Truth. I say it because I care. I don't understand your motives otherwise – maybe your trying to protect what you know and because I posted something that counters it – you therefore attack it instead of investigating it. I'm not sure. You must always accept the Truth and not just when its convienient for you.

Paul

[trettep]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 22 2005,08:04)

Quote (trettep @ May 22 2005,00:53) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 22 2005,00:16) Hi trettep, The evidence that Adam had the Holy Spirit is not shown by fruit in his actions. Nor is it shown in scripture but you have inferred it from the fact he is said to be a son of God. Should you not rely on scriptural evidence? Why does God not say he blew the Holy Spirit into him instead of “the breath of God” which we share with the animals? James called Abraham our father[2.21] Was he a child of Abraham? Scripture says he is because he is a descendant. So also with Paul in Romans 4.12. Neither did Jesus dispute that the Jews were sons of Abraham by descent[Jn 8.39]. But they followed another father by their actions and that is more important to God. Are we children of Adam? Because of him we are all condemned to die unless we join with the only begotten Son of God.We are sons of Adam which makes us, by the principles of scripture, sons of God. But that odes not give us the Spirit. We must be born again of Water and the Spirit to receive our new adoption as sons of God. Nick,  I resent you calling what God created inperfect but I know its only because you lack knowledge.  For you say that scripture is incorrect and argue against scripture saying it didn't apply in that case.  I think your have a problem and can't admit that your wrong.   For if Adam didn't have the Holy Spirit then you paint him as carnally created and at emnity against God not able to even fullfil the commandments given to him by God.  For everyone knows that carnal man could not do the works of righteousness.  Therefore, you make God out to perform functions in vain.  You deny that Adam was given a chance to fullfill righteousness.  My advice to you is to repent.  I'm here to help if you desire. Paul Hi trettep, Gen 1.31 ” God saw all that He had made, and behold it was very good” Not perfect. Very good. Where does it say “perfect”? I would like to gain this knowledge which you say I lack. I will believe that Adam had the Holy Spirit as soon as you can show me that it is written. What works of righteousness did this “spiritual” man do? You must know of some to make this statement surely? Actually scripture does not say he was a spiritual man but a natural man, and earthy man. 1Cor 15.45 ” So it is written 'The first man Adam became a living soul' The last Adam became a life giving spirit. However the spiritual is not first, but the NATURAL:then the spiritual.THE FIRST MAN IS FROM THE EARTH, EARTHY: the second man is from heaven. As is the EARTHY, so also are those who are earthy;and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. Just as we have borne the image of the EARTHY, we will also bear the image of the heavenly”

Nick,

“good” is perfect – from God.

Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

Is the Light not “perfect” either?

This a flaw you seem to have Nick. You think God can do imperfection.

Paul

[trettep]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 22 2005,06:27)

Quote (trettep @ May 22 2005,01:43) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 22 2005,01:08) Quote (trettep @ May 21 2005,23:06) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 21 2005,22:40) Hi trettep, We know from Genesis God commanded Adam and spoke to Adam. Adam knew who his father was and knew his Father. There is little evidence he knew the thoughts of God or followed those thoughts or instructions. Certainly it does not say man had the Holy Spirit. Instead we are compared with animals-both given life by the breath of God. Do you agree animals do not have the Holy Spirit? As Paul told the Athenians God is close to every man and Genesis says “the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters”.But scripture does not say man was made “with the Holy Spirit”. I believe Adam was like any natural man and had no inherent advantage ,as you seem to suggest, over any man born now. Nick, Rom 8:14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Luk 3:38  Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God. Paul Hi, Does scripture say ” all who are sons of God have the Spirit of God”? No Does scripture say “all who have the Spirit of God are sons of God”? No Scripture says “all who are LED by the Spirit of God are sons of God.” So you have reversed the scripture and reduced it and yet claim it shows your meaning. It does not. Scripture says there are other sons of God in Job 1,2 and 38. Do you say they also must have the Spirit of God? Are they not greater than Adam, a mere man? Or, because you say Adam had the Spirit you also claim he was as great as Jesus and greater than the angels? Does everyone who has the Spirit follow the Spirit? No some will lose the Spirit as Revelation tells us. You cannot twist scripture safely, trettep, though I am sure you did it out of ignorance. Nick, Again you try to keep saying the scriptures don't mean what they say.  Here is another one for you to refute: Gal 4:6  And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. You going to still refute the Word of God? Paul Hi trettep, In context:Gal 3.23f-4.7 ” But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the Law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For all of you who were baptised into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female;for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise. Now I say, as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave, although he is owner of everything, but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the Father. So also we, while we are children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of this world. But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. Because you are sons God sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts crying 'Abba!Father!” Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God” So who is this written primarily to? The Jews as they are those under the Law and gentiles are outside the Law. They are those who inherit the promise as do gentiles in Jesus. When was the Spirit sent into the hearts of the sons of God? In the fullness of time when God sent His Son into the world. So did Adam share the Spirit in this way? No. It was not the fullness of time. It is not your judgement that concerns me trettep.

Its your judgement that concerns me Nick. You just condemned many ancestors including Noah, Enoch, Shem, and Adam.

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Now can you find where Noah is said to have the Holy Spirit? Can you? So based on Joh 3:5 would you say that he is not going to enter into the Kingdom of God? How about the others?

Paul

[trettep]

Quote (Artizan007 @ May 21 2005,22:34)

Hey Trettep, Thanks for that, that is exactly what i was saying in my post. How can the trinity theory be correct when there are so many scriptures to the contrary. When you used the word {you} in [if you believe in the trinity you have been deceived], did you mean me or {you} as in people in general. I believe God is in heaven, i believe Jesus is the Son of God and i do not believe in a Trinity like the majority of the Church does. However i believe that there is ONE God the Father and there is ONE Lord Jesus Christ. My point was how can we read scriptures like the one I stated and so many others where even the Lamb sings a song to the ONLY GOD who is ALMIGHTY. I do not understand your statement, can you clarify. Have a good day….

Artizan007,

When I replied to you and said (You) – I really did mean – you. However, I would say that to anyone that believes in the Trinity for the only way one can believe in the Trinity is through deception in my opinion.

Paul

[trettep]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 22 2005,01:49)

Quote (trettep @ May 22 2005,00:53) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 22 2005,00:16) Hi trettep, The evidence that Adam had the Holy Spirit is not shown by fruit in his actions. Nor is it shown in scripture but you have inferred it from the fact he is said to be a son of God. Should you not rely on scriptural evidence? Why does God not say he blew the Holy Spirit into him instead of “the breath of God” which we share with the animals? James called Abraham our father[2.21] Was he a child of Abraham? Scripture says he is because he is a descendant. So also with Paul in Romans 4.12. Neither did Jesus dispute that the Jews were sons of Abraham by descent[Jn 8.39]. But they followed another father by their actions and that is more important to God. Are we children of Adam? Because of him we are all condemned to die unless we join with the only begotten Son of God.We are sons of Adam which makes us, by the principles of scripture, sons of God. But that odes not give us the Spirit. We must be born again of Water and the Spirit to receive our new adoption as sons of God. Nick,  I resent you calling what God created inperfect but I know its only because you lack knowledge.  For you say that scripture is incorrect and argue against scripture saying it didn't apply in that case.  I think your have a problem and can't admit that your wrong.   For if Adam didn't have the Holy Spirit then you paint him as carnally created and at emnity against God not able to even fullfil the commandments given to him by God.  For everyone knows that carnal man could not do the works of righteousness.  Therefore, you make God out to perform functions in vain.  You deny that Adam was given a chance to fullfill righteousness.  My advice to you is to repent.  I'm here to help if you desire. Paul Hi, I would love to hear from others on trettep's premise that Adam was created perfect And Adam had the Holy Spirit. Scriptural evidence is preferable to human inference as in all these matters.

A correction for you Nick. I believe that Adam was created and walked perfect up until he disobeyed God.

I also believe that even now if someone has the Holy Spirit and willfully sins that they blasphemy the Holy Spirit and can be subject to Judgement. Therefore, unless there is a reconciliation (a covering) for the sin – Adam would be doomed eternally. But I believe that mankind will prevail and produce brethren for the Lord Jesus and more Children unto God and thus redeem Adam and Eve.

1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Notice that word “covered” above. Sins are not covered for those that have been Born Again – there sins are completely removed and forgotten. Sins are “covered” for those that cannot be forgiven of sins. That is what happens to those that blasphemy the Holy Spirit.

Paul

[trettep]

Nick,

I rebuked you from the Word of God and you denied every verse was valid.

Then you say:

“Scriptural evidence is preferable to human inference as in all these matters.”

Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Nick – that verse reminds me of you. You are professing to know God but deny him. When you deny the Word of God – you deny Jesus. You can't say that a verse doesn't say what it clearly says. If you have a problem with translation or understanding a word then its understandable. But to say that it doesn't mean what it says is denial.

Now I have rebuked you sharply in order that you might look at those verses again and evaluate them – look for the Truth and have zeal for it. If the verses don't say what you want them to say – its not the Word of God's fault. Its your failure in understanding. The Word of God is not to conform to you – but you to the Word of God.

Paul

[trettep]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 22 2005,01:08)

Quote (trettep @ May 21 2005,23:06) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 21 2005,22:40) Hi trettep, We know from Genesis God commanded Adam and spoke to Adam. Adam knew who his father was and knew his Father. There is little evidence he knew the thoughts of God or followed those thoughts or instructions. Certainly it does not say man had the Holy Spirit. Instead we are compared with animals-both given life by the breath of God. Do you agree animals do not have the Holy Spirit? As Paul told the Athenians God is close to every man and Genesis says “the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters”.But scripture does not say man was made “with the Holy Spirit”. I believe Adam was like any natural man and had no inherent advantage ,as you seem to suggest, over any man born now. Nick, Rom 8:14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Luk 3:38  Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God. Paul Hi, Does scripture say ” all who are sons of God have the Spirit of God”? No Does scripture say “all who have the Spirit of God are sons of God”? No Scripture says “all who are LED by the Spirit of God are sons of God.” So you have reversed the scripture and reduced it and yet claim it shows your meaning. It does not. Scripture says there are other sons of God in Job 1,2 and 38. Do you say they also must have the Spirit of God? Are they not greater than Adam, a mere man? Or, because you say Adam had the Spirit you also claim he was as great as Jesus and greater than the angels? Does everyone who has the Spirit follow the Spirit? No some will lose the Spirit as Revelation tells us. You cannot twist scripture safely, trettep, though I am sure you did it out of ignorance.

Nick,

Again you try to keep saying the scriptures don't mean what they say. Here is another one for you to refute:

Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

You going to still refute the Word of God?

Paul

[trettep]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 22 2005,00:16)

Hi trettep, The evidence that Adam had the Holy Spirit is not shown by fruit in his actions. Nor is it shown in scripture but you have inferred it from the fact he is said to be a son of God. Should you not rely on scriptural evidence? Why does God not say he blew the Holy Spirit into him instead of “the breath of God” which we share with the animals? James called Abraham our father[2.21] Was he a child of Abraham? Scripture says he is because he is a descendant. So also with Paul in Romans 4.12. Neither did Jesus dispute that the Jews were sons of Abraham by descent[Jn 8.39]. But they followed another father by their actions and that is more important to God. Are we children of Adam? Because of him we are all condemned to die unless we join with the only begotten Son of God.We are sons of Adam which makes us, by the principles of scripture, sons of God. But that odes not give us the Spirit. We must be born again of Water and the Spirit to receive our new adoption as sons of God.

Nick,

I resent you calling what God created inperfect but I know its only because you lack knowledge. For you say that scripture is incorrect and argue against scripture saying it didn't apply in that case. I think your have a problem and can't admit that your wrong. For if Adam didn't have the Holy Spirit then you paint him as carnally created and at emnity against God not able to even fullfil the commandments given to him by God. For everyone knows that carnal man could not do the works of righteousness. Therefore, you make God out to perform functions in vain. You deny that Adam was given a chance to fullfill righteousness. My advice to you is to repent. I'm here to help if you desire.

Paul

[trettep]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 21 2005,23:21)

Hi trettep, Of course Adam was a son of God. That is a natural fact. He had no other father.That does not say he had the Holy Spirit. We are sons of God by adoption not natural sons [except as sons of Adam]. If you are correct then in saying Adam was a son of God as he had the Spirit is to say we do not need the Spirit as we already have it too as sons of Adam and sons of God. To take a new Testament scripture and apply it in retrospect to try to show Adam was a son of God by the Spirit is to twist scripture. It ignores the more obvious reason. It ignores the fact he always was a son of God.

Nick,

I just gave you two verses that you are disputing from the Word of God. It clearly shows that Adam is a Son of God and that Sons of God are led by the Holy Spirit. Your not disputing me – your disputing the Word of God.

Additionally, this comment you stated:

“If you are correct then in saying Adam was a son of God as he had the Spirit is to say we do not need the Spirit as we already have it too as sons of Adam and sons of God.”

The Holy Spirit was NEVER something passed by natural means. Then you say I twist scripture because I applied a New Testament verse in retrospect. Lets look at the verse in question again:

Luk 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

As I see that verse – it says that Adam is a Son of God. I didn't make it up – you will have to contend with it in your own Bible. If anyone applied the statement “Son of God” to “Adam” it was not me! It was the Word of God – you need to accept that! Maybe your uncomfortable with being refuted so clearly by the Word of God! Now lets look at the other verse:

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Now you say how can that be applied to Adam. Very simple – the verse I just quoted previously shows that Adam is a Son of God – and this verse says that Sons of God are those led by the Spirit of God. That is a very clear association. Don't you agree that Adam is a Son of God? Don't you agree that Sons of God are led by the Holy Spirit?

You are arguing against the Word of God! Trying to make them say them NOT say what they so clearly DO say!

Paul

[trettep]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 21 2005,22:52)

Quote (trettep @ May 21 2005,20:53) I liken the Holy Spirit unto Holy Instinct.  Its a gift unlearned.  That when one is Born Again they are a newborn babe and can begin to discern spiritual things.  Now there doesn't appear to be a limit to what God gives you of that Instinct.  Instinct is Ability.  Like when a newborn infant knows to suck on the nipple.  I hasn't been taught but rather received this knowledge. Paul Hi trettep, Surely the Holy Spirit is more than Holy instinct? It is a Spirit of power and grace and knowledge and wisdom. It is given to transform our minds and hearts and enable us to serve and worship God and continue the work of the saviour on earth.

By the way you should read my post before you comment. You'll notice I said its not a limitation. Its ability! I can only say this is what I have spiritual discerned it to be.

Paul

[trettep]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 21 2005,22:52)

Quote (trettep @ May 21 2005,20:53) I liken the Holy Spirit unto Holy Instinct.  Its a gift unlearned.  That when one is Born Again they are a newborn babe and can begin to discern spiritual things.  Now there doesn't appear to be a limit to what God gives you of that Instinct.  Instinct is Ability.  Like when a newborn infant knows to suck on the nipple.  I hasn't been taught but rather received this knowledge. Paul Hi trettep, Surely the Holy Spirit is more than Holy instinct? It is a Spirit of power and grace and knowledge and wisdom. It is given to transform our minds and hearts and enable us to serve and worship God and continue the work of the saviour on earth.

Can you support that with scripture Nick.

Paul

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