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[Togel]

Gene,

Jesus said: that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father.

We are to honor the Son, JUST AS WE HONOR THE FATHER. How do we honor the Father? We honor the Father as God.
That means, we also are to honor Jesus as God, because we are to honor Jesus as we honor the Father. Not less!

Jesus also said:

Joh 8:50 Yet I do not seek my own glory; there is One who seeks it, and he is the judge.

The Father seeks that Jesus has the Glory… and He will be the judge for whoever do not honor Jesus as He should be honored, i.e.
as the Father is honored.

[Togel]

Gene,

The Gospel is not only “all about the Father” but also about Jesus!
Read this verse:

John 5:22 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,
23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

We ought to honor the Son just like we honor the Father! So, if you think that by honoring only the Father far above Jesus, you are doing what the Father wants, you are definitely INCORRECT! If you do that, you are in fact NOT HONORING the Father! You have to honor the Son as you honor the Father if you want to honor the Father. Honoring highly only the Father (and belittling Jesus, taking Him as a mere man like yourself) means you are NOT honoring the Father. If you do not honor the Father, you canNOT expect to meet Him.

[Togel]

Gene,

Right, we accept ALL verses about Jesus being truly a son of man and more than that, but also THE Son of Man.. if you know what that is!

Trinitarians believe that Jesus is FULLY MAN and also FULLY GOD, which fits the ENTIRE Scripture.

No, I never say that I have no trouble accepting WHAT YOU SAY….. never. I say I have no problem accepting all the verses which say that Jesus is a human being… but what you say is incorrect regarding this, because your logic is this:

IF JESUS IS A MAN THEN HE CANNOT BE GOD! Jesus’ being a human excludes the possibility that He is God.

This logic is typical of heretics, including Muslims… I have debated so many Muslims who always argue that Jesus is a mere man… however, debating with them regarding the deity of Jesus is quite easier than it is with you, because you know the Scriptures better, and already have established ways to twist them and ignore them, while Muslims simply follow their Holy Book that denies Jesus’ deity.

Example, you never address this verse:

Ga 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”

Which shows that Jesus has His own Spirit, who dwells in the billions of believers.. so Jesus’ Spirit is definitely omnipresent! Yes, the Scriptures also tells us that it is the Holy Spirit who dwells in us! Also Paul again wrote:

Ro 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

The Spirit that dwells in the believers is the Spirit of God! So, the Spirit of God’s Son, who is Jesus, is omnipresent, dwelling in the believers’ hearts, and that Spirit is also called the Spirit of God. And we all know that the Spirit of God is eternal! And so Jesus’ Spirit is eternal, and so Jesus is eternal!

This is actually very clear.. but you just ignore it or twist it. And you call me ignoring verses? Or adding words? Which words did I add?

[Togel]

Jodi,

In the New Testaments, there are two groups of verses that describe Jesus:

1. That Jesus is a man
2. That Jesus is divine

I, and all other Trinitarian Christians, have no problem at all accepting the verses describing Jesus as a human being: annointed, born as a baby, son of Mary, son of Joseph, called son of David, hungry, tired, tortured, killed, and you name it.

I and all other Trinitarian Christians also have NO problem at all accepting the 2nd group of verses that tell of Jesus’ divine nature: sinless, later called Himself The Alpha and The Omega, and The First and The Last, and later called the Lord of lords and King of kings, saying that His Spirit and His Father’s spirit will dwell in His believers, etc, etc.

However, you and your gangs here would only accept the 1st group of verses, and reject the 2nd group of verses. You treat the second group of verses by reinterpreting them or twisting their meaning or calling their translation incorrect, or simply by ignoring them.. considering them non-existent.

I already showed you many of these verses, and many of them you just ignored.

Be careful with your theology… repent and be saved.

[Togel]

Jodi,

All right, I think I can say a few more words.

You say that Jesus is a mortal man (“mortal man whose GENESIS is given to you by Matthew”, etc).

On what Scriptural basis did you say that Jesus is a mortal man?

Did you know that Adam was created IMMORTAL? He died ONLY AFTER he sinned.

According to Scriptures, Jesus is sinless. Do you believe that Jesus is sinless?

Peter said: 22 He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth.
Paul said: 2Co 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Jesus himself said: Joh 8:46  Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me?

So, Scriptures clearly tells that Jesus is sinless. If Jesus is sinless, on what basis do you think that he should die? and so you can call him “MORTAL”? While Scriptures is clear that “Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death“? No sin, no death.

Jesus was also conceived without sin because He is technically/biologically, NOT the son of Adam. At the very least, He does not have the Y chromosome of Adam’s. However, it is also very probable that God made the body of Jesus even without Mary’s ovum… so Jesus’ body is like Adam’s, a brand new man, without sin, without the original sin. That’s why Jesus is called the last Adam by Paul.

If Jesus is a sinning person and thus mortal, He will die by Himself. And if He would die by Himself, then He would not have been able to die for us!! If Jesus sinned, He would have died FOR HIS OWN SIN, and therefore He could not have died for us! But no. Jesus would have never died if He was not killed! He was killed FOR US! He was killed BY US! By our sin He was killed. However, God is just, and therefore, the sinless, immortal man MUST NOT die.. because He has no sin! So Jesus is resurrected.

Jesus’ case proves Satan’s guilt, because Satan has always been acting like the self-righteous prosecutor… acting as if he is enforcing the law of God. But here, Satan made the wrong step. He killed Jesus, while Jesus has no sin, and therefore actually does not deserve death. So, Satan is now proven guilty as the murderer as Jesus declared in John 8:44. Thus, Satan is now convicted and defeated. Satan is not the righteous prosecutor but just a murderer, and therefore will be punished.

Jesus is immortal because he never sins. If Jesus never sin, then EVEN BEFORE HIS BAPTISM, before the Holy Spirit came down upon Him, Jesus already NEVER SINNED! Now, show me just one person who can remain sinless from birth to age 30! Nobody. Everybody sins. But Jesus is not. Why? He had not had the Holy Spirit when He was small, in your theory, but He was able to remain sinless. The only answer is because Jesus is divine.

Jesus said that he could do nothing of himself.. now tell me, is there any man who can say that? No! All of us, each of us can do anything of ourselves. We can lie, we can steal, we can blaspheme, etc, etc. But Jesus could not. Jesus could only do what His Father does… and that is NOT SINNING. This also shows that Jesus is God. He is the Son of God from the very beginning… even before His conception as the son of Joseph.

 

 

[Togel]

Jodi,

I really pity you because you just ignore many verses in the Scripture that show that Jesus is the eternal Son of God.

Example:

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.

Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Jesus is the only Son of God… there is no other. We are only adopted sons of God, because we have the Spirit of Jesus in us:

Ro 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!”
Ga 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”

Well, I guess I have shown you guys enough verses in the Scripture that you have intentionally ignored and overlooked in order to stay in your heretical theology. It is up to you whether you will repent and follow the doctrine entirely from the Scripture or follow your own conjectures.. man-made theology. In the end, each of you will have to account for what you believe in from God’s Words during His judgement. There is nothing more I need to say.

[Togel]

Gene,

As usual, you ignore the verses that shows that Jesus has a pre-existence, together with the Father.

The verse by Jude is clear that Jesus was leading the Israelites out of Egypt.

[Togel]

Jodi,

You said “The Spirit of Christ, meaning the Spirit of the Anointed, is the Spirit of God dwelling in Jesus’s spirit.”

I am afraid this is your own conjecture… Paul never says that Jesus has two spirits: himself’s and God’s Spirit in Him.

Read this:

1 Corinth 10:

1 I want you to know, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea,
2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
3 and all ate the same spiritual food,
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ.

Christ was already there when the Israelites were brought out of Egypt…
And then Jude, wrote in

Jude 1:5 Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. (ESV)

Jude said that it was Jesus who led the Israelites out of the land of Egypt!

The Spirit of Jesus is the Spirit of God….

I know that we, believers, also have the Spirit of God in us, but we do not become God and still do not have many of the attributes of God that Jesus had in His time on earth.

[Togel]

Unfortunately, you have in fact added your own twisted interpretation of that verse. Jesus is equalizing Himself with the Father by saying that He and the Father will come and dwell within us. He is claiming omnipresence and omnipotence.

Have you ever found the term ‘the Spirit of Peter’ or ‘the Spirit of Paul’ or the Spirit of Matthew in the Scripture? No! Never! But that’s what you’re trying to say… as if we can be of equal status with Christ entirely! No we can’t… we are just mere human beings but Christ is different, although He has become one of us. Paul equalizes the Spirit of Christ with the Spirit of God:

Ro 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

the Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ.. and so Christ is God. Can you say that of your own spirit? The Spirit of Gene is the Spirit of God? That’s blasphemy!

Again, Thomas called Jesus his Lord and his God.. and Jesus did NOT correct him.. but you guys are trying to correct him in Jesus’ place. You guys are truly lost.. repent before your judgement come… please…

 

[Togel]

Jodi,

You got it wrong Brother… it’s Jesus and the Father making THEIR home IN US! So, the Holy Spirit is basically the Spirit of the Father and the Spirit of Christ, because we know that it is the Holy Spirit that indwells in us.

Ro 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

Dean Braxton, there are a lot of videos in Youtube of his testimonies, when he died from a lot of illnesses, he went to heaven, and when about to enter heave, Jesus looked at him and saw Himself (Jesus) inside him, and so he got in. No Jesus within, and you will not get in.

This shows Jesus’ divinity.

No Christian ever denies that Jesus was a man… yet, He who became man was not mere man like the rest of us.

You definitely cannot explain that verse.. so you should not have asked me to explain that verse.. but actually what ‘we are joint heirs with Christ’ means that we will rule the kingdom together with Christ, to replace the heavenly beings that are currently ruling the kingdom… you can watch Dr. Michael Heiser on that.. including here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7OKTgHhmiM

In short, if you people deny Jesus’ divinity, then you are practically being heretical, because the Scripture clearly says that Jesus is divine, whether or not you accept it.

 

[Togel]

Jodi,
Then explain this verse:

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and WE WILL come to him and make OUR HOME with him.

Jesus and the Father will come and make THEIR home with those who love Jesus. If Jesus is a mere man, this is definitely is a blasphemy!! There are now billions of believers, and in them all there is the Spirit of Jesus and the Father… so, Jesus could not be just a mere man!
Please do not read only ONE side of the Scripture and disregard the OTHER side!

Jesus also has the power to send the Holy Spirit of God… how can a mere man has such a power?

Jesus also said that He will resurrect His Body:

Joh 2:19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 20 The Jews then said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?”
21 But he was speaking about the temple of his body.

So, who raise Jesus from among the dead? God. But Jesus said that He will raise His body.. so that is saying that Jesus is God…

When Thomas called Jesus ho kurios mo kai ho theos mo.. My Lord and My God! John 20:28, Jesus did NOT correct Thomas.. so Jesus approves what Thomas said, which means Jesus, as the Son of God, is also God like the Father.
I am not saying that glory must not go to the Father.. yes, that verse is true, but so are the verses that talks about the Divinity of Jesus.

Jesus is the way to the Father.. but that way is Divine, although our final destination is the Father.

[Togel]

Hi Gene,

Thank you for the welcome 🙂 Actually I was here some years ago…
Yes, I am definitely in the mainstream Trinitarian belief…

Thank you, peace and love to you and yours too 🙂

[Togel]

What are we talking about? This topic is from years ago.. I think we are talking about the divinity of Jesus Christ. People here are Unitarians, right? You do not believe that Jesus is God as much as the Father is God, right? Or what are we talking about?

[Togel]

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and WE WILL come to him and make OUR HOME with him.

[Togel]

T8,

It’s been very long… been very busy with projects, and evangelizing the Moslems… you know what? Debating with them does not feel too much different from debating with you! They like to use Bible verses that you use, to prove that Jesus is not God. LOL!

I don’t remember quite much the plot of our discussion, but what I remember is that you twist the meaning of many verses into your own doctrine of unitarianism. The Bible clearly writes that Thomas said to Jesus My Lord and My God, but you tried to give a different meaning to that.

We also read that the Scripture clearly says that YHWH visited Abraham in human form, and you said that that is not God, practically saying that YHWH is not God, or that the Scripture (OT) is wrong, or a lesser revelation than the NT.

You have not addressed the Isaiah verse where Isaiah saw the LORD sitting on His Throne. You cannot say that this is another “agent”. I think you will twist this again into somewhat Isaiah saw only a vision not reality or that Isaiah is a lesser revelation. Something like that.

You should also read John 14:23

23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

If Jesus is only “the image” of the Father in the sense that He is nobody, not a God personality, then he could not have said that and be truthful. Jesus said that He (Jesus) and the Father would come and live with anyone who loves Jesus. If Jesus is not God, this is simply impossible. Because there are billions of believers who loves Jesus, and there will be billions of Jesus… without Jesus being omnipotent and omnipresent, just like the Father, this will be impossible.

Also Paul said that in Jesus dwells the full deity. He did not say “half deity” or “part deity” or “sub-deity”… what does that mean? He clearly says that the Spirit that lives in the human body of Jesus was fully God. And Paul knows that this God is not the Father. So Paul was saying that Jesus, God the Son, is fully deity, and dwells in that human body called Jesus.

But I guess you will take all efforts possible to twist these verses or “impose” your doctrine into these verses so that these verses do not read like they should any more. You will then be unable to read the Scripture as it is written. So, I guess I will leave you at that. I am afraid that you will finally got totally lost in your understanding of the Scripture because you cannot read it as it is any more, but instead twist everything to fit your theology.

 

[Togel]

T8,

You are totally missing the point!

Jesus knew exactly that the God of Israel had been seen by people; He had visited Abraham in human form, He had been seen by Moses (Moses saw God’s back) and Israeli elders, and seen by Isaiah on His throne with the seraphim and cherubim around. Therefore, when John wrote “no one has seen God”, Jesus explained that it is not “God” in the meaning that you are assuming, but simply “the Father”. Otherwise, John’s statement would totally contradict the established and accepted Scripture, the Old Testament, which is as important as the New Testament. Jesus knew that the God of Israel had been seen by Abraham, Moses, and Isaiah, because it was He, Jesus, the Son Himself, who visited Abraham, and it was also Him whom Moses, and Israeli elders, and Isaiah saw! And I know that you don’t deny this, because the Father is invisible, and so only the Son can declare Him, and the Son had declared the Father to these people.

And these people knew very well that YHWH that they saw was the Elohim (God, theos, if you like) of Israel, and they were not wrong, otherwise they would have been corrected, and this proves that Jesus, the Son, is also an El (God), part of the Elohim (God in plural form) of Israel.

That’s why, Jesus said in John 8:24  “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

Who do you think Jesus is claiming to be in the verse above? “I am He” or simply “I Am”, the name of God in the Old Testament, because that’s who He is! That is the title or name that YHWH assumes many times in the OT. And read it carefully because Jesus said that if you do not believe that Jesus is “I Am”, you will die in your sins. That’s Jesus saying, not me, so don’t you say that I am putting words in Jesus’ mouth. I am not. It is written as it is.

Now, if you quote 1 Corinthian 8:5-6 to prove that the person of God is only one, i.e. the Father, I am afraid you are wrong:

5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords),
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

Read verse 5,  and you see that Paul is differentiating the one God, the Father, not from the Son, but from the other gods, and lords the many other nations. The false gods. Paul is not denying Trinity here, but simply enforces the true identity of the true God. In fact, Paul is confirming the very imporant role of the Lord Jesus Christ, through whom all are all things. If Jesus is created, this is simply impossible.

And if you believe that the latter revelation is greater, you should be very careful, because you are very close to becoming the follower of Joseph Smith (or are you already?) or Muhammad, both of who believe that their latter revelation is GREATER and more correct than the earlier revelation: the OT and the NT. This assumption simply does not work, and is simply your creation in order to justify your theology.

The plurality of the persons of God is already revealed many times in the Old Testament. They are there if you just would read.

[Togel]

T8,

I do not disagree with the Scripture or their writers, but I disagree with YOUR INTERPRETATION of their writings.

When John writes that no one has seen God, John meant to say that none has seen the Father. Jesus explains this Himself:

John 6:46 “Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.

So, I clearly believes more in Jesus’ interpretation of John’s writing that no one has ever seen God, than your interpretation.

But there is ONE GOD that people has seen, in the past and even in Jesus, time, that is the Son, the only God who declared the Father.

Whom do you think was talking to Moses, and whose back do you think Moses see? The Father’s?

And the Lord said, “Behold, there is a place by me where you shall stand on the rock, and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by. Then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back…

Of course not the Father’s back. He is invisible. Even Moses could not see Him. If the Father’s back is visible, then He is not invisible. So, this is clearly God the Son whom Moses saw. He is the Elohim of Israel, whether or not you acknowledge.

That’s why the writer of Hebrew writes that it was the Son who created the heaven and earth, because God the Son is the God of Israel. He is the God that Abraham, Moses, and Isaiah saw.

In His full Glory, nobody could see His Face and live. I guess He had to sort of “reduce” His glory in order that people could see Him and live. In other words, God could allow some people to see Him and live. However, this God is not the invisible Father, because no matter what the Father will never be seen. However, God the Son could make Himself visible, and even becomes incarnate.

This same God, the Son, also calls Himself, the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End, to Isaiah and to John. The Almighty also uses these names, but for you, these two names have different meanings when used by the Almighty and by Jesus. How come? Clearly you read your interpretation ONTO the Scripture instead of letting the Scripture speaks for itself.

Clearly, you are placing your logic above the Scripture.

And once again, remember that Jesus says Himself: You see me, you see the Father (meaning: You see me, you see God, because the Father is God). And you dare to reinterpret that into something else. I am sorry Brother, I guess you disagree with Jesus in order to maintain your theology based on your wrong interpretation of Paul’s and John’s writing.

Now, when you quote this, and wants to use “the only God” to refer only to the Father, you need to see the other translations as well:

(ESV) 1Ti 1:17 To the King of ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

(NKJV) 1Ti 1:17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

(AV) 1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

So, clearly “the only God” can mean “God who alone is”.

It’s like the Shema Yisrael,  where “echad” means not the absolute oneness of God, but that there is only one true God, i.e. YHWH, the Elohim of Israel.

 

[Togel]

T8,

You said:

In the Old Testament, people saw YHWH when they saw the angel of the LORD.

==========

Sorry Brother, I think your statement above does not represent what is written in Genesis 18, Exodus 24, and Isaiah. It is clearly written there that Abraham, Moses, and Isaiah saw GOD (YHWH or YHVH, the Elohim of Israel). These verses are clear enough.

Isaiah 6:1

1  In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord (YHWH) sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple.
2 Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.
3 And one cried to another and said: “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; The whole earth is full of His glory!”

So, Isaiah clearly did not see an angel of the Lord. I agree that there is a special Angel of the Lord, which is very likely Christ before His incarnation, but these verses are not talking about this Angel of the Lord but the Lord Himself, sitting on the throne with the seraphim.

You are trying to reduce these verses into somewhat “erroneous” because it is a lesser revelation than the New Testament. I disagree, I prefer taking these verses as they are.

However, I see that you understand that Abraham, Moses, and Isaiah clearly see Jesus before His incarnation, because the Father is invisible, and the only God, i.e. the Son of God declared the Father.

Isaiah clearly saw Jesus on the throne of God. He knew this Lord to be YHWH, the Elohim of Israel. So, I too believe that Jesus was the Elohim of Israel, YHWH.

What about the Father? The Father is also YHWH, but since He is invisible, nobody has seen Him, and can never see Him.

If Moses, Abraham, and Isaiah believe that the Lord they saw was YHWH or the Elohim of Israel, which now we know to be God, how could God not correct them if they were wrong?

Please also look at “Holy, Holy, Holy”… why 3 times? Not 2 times? Not 4 times? 2 times in the entire Bible we see the angels saying “Holy, Holy, Holy” (3 times) to our God. Once is in the New Testament (Rev 4:8).

Also, let’s see it from the perspective of the NT, I guess you already are aware of this as well:

Jesus said 3 times that whoever sees Him (Jesus), saw the Father, the One who sent Him:

John 14:7,9

7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”
8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Joh 12:45 “And he who sees Me sees Him who sent Me.

So, let’s see it from the perspective of the Father. Do you think the Father agrees with Jesus’ words above? I believe He does. So, the Father could very well have said “If you want to see Me, see Jesus, my Son. If you see Him, you see Me”.

Or, we can put it this way: The Father could have said “If you want to see God (Me), look at Jesus”.

This way, we can see that Jesus is God. Otherwise, the Father could not have said that, and Jesus could not have said the above.

Believing that Jesus is less than God is a blasphemy, because we will be considering the visible image of the invisible God to be not God, whereas the Son Himself says that if you want to see the Father (who is undoubtedly God), look at me, a statement with which, I believe, the Father agrees.

Imagine this: The Father says “You want to see Me (God), look at Jesus (less than God)”. Then the Father is lying, but He does not lie. So, Jesus must be God. Not the Father, but God.

 

[Togel]

T8,

Great! Finally you are willing to address this, instead of just ignoring this. I appreciate your willingness to do this.

I see that your reasoning is very close to the truth, but I think you are still missing a few points simply because you are tied to your theology.

When faced with such opposing/contradictory information from the Scripture:

1. God is visible, seen by men (OT)

Please don’t say “you say that one of them was YHWH himself” because it is not me saying, but the Scripture EXPLICITLY saying that:

Genesis 18:1  Then the LORD appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day.

It does not say “the messenger of the Lord” or “the Angel of the LORD”, but “THE LORD”.

Also here:

Exodus 24:10  and they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very heavens in its clarity. 11  But on the nobles of the children of Israel He did not lay His hand. So they saw God, and they ate and drank.

Isaiah 6:1   In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple.

2  Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.

The above verses also do not say “Angel of the Lord” or “messenger of the Lord” but THE LORD, sitting on His Throne! with the seraphims.

 

2. God is invisible, no man has seen Him

We have 1 of 3 possible positions to take:

1. Believe that A is right, and so B is somewhat wrong
2. Believe that B is right, and so A is somewhat wrong
3. Believe that A and B is right, just an explanation is needed

You seem to take the position of 2, by reading the NT idea into OT and thus declaring that OT is somewhat inaccurate. The OT verses clearly says GOD of Israel, and YHWH by name, but you are trying to impose the B position onto A. Your position is confirmed by your statement that NT is a greater revelation than NT. Who says so? There will no NT without the OT. The OT is the law that laid the foundation for the NT. The atonement for sin is laid down in the OT and fulfilled in the NT. So, you basically saying that the OT is not valid, and by invalidating the OT, you are invalidating the entire Scripture. And this is not right.

My position is simple, i.e. the 3rd position. Both revelations are right. Only an explanation is needed, and this explanation is given by Jesus.

When John wrote:

John 1:18 (English-KJV)
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Jesus provides the explanation:

John 6:46 (English-NIV)
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

Actually John already explains that as well:

John 1:18 (ESV) No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.

Here, you can rightly apply your “method”, By replacing God with the Father:

No man hath seen the Father (God) at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

So, why dont’ you? :-)) It is in alignment with what Jesus Himself said: No one has seen the Father.

Therefore, I totally agree with your statement:

================

What men saw was the closest thing to seeing the invisible God, that is Jesus Christ,

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So, from your statement above, we can conclude that the YHWH who visited Abraham, and seen by Moses and Isaiah was clearly the Son, who become incarnate and named Jesus Christ. Right? He was called YHWH, the Elohim of Israel. I believe this is what you wanted to say right? Because the Father is invisible, and nobody has seen Him except Jesus, then the Elohim of Israel, YHWH, that these OT people saw was clearly not the Father, but the Son, who was visible, and yet, He was called YHWH.

That is why He said in Isaiah 48:12

12  “Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last.

And He repeated that in Revelation, several times.

 

Then you said:

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If you understand this, then you do not need to force Jesus to become the only God who we know is invisible. Rather, he is the son of that God, the image of that God, the exact representation of that God.

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I am NOT forcing Jesus to become the “only” God. The Modalists do. They BELIEVE that Jesus is the only God, who was the Father, who is then became the Holy Spirit. For me, it is clear that the Father is invisible, His name is YHWH, Jesus is His Image, visible (when He wants to be visible), who is the Elohim of Israel, and His name is also YHWH, but having a distinct personality to the Father.

So, clearly, Jesus is God, but is distinct from the Father who is invisible.

So perhaps my question to you again is this: Is the Son of God not God? Is the Image of God not God? If not God, then what is He? A being less than God? Not equal to God? (this is clearly rebutted by the Scripture, because Paul says that Jesus is equal to God). So, you are placing the Son below God and above the angel? Is that so?

In doing so, you have to remember that the Son is also YHWH, and so dare you call YHWH to be inferior to the Father?

And in doing so, remember this also; you quoted this verse:

1 Timothy 6:15-16 (English-NIV)
15 which God will bring about in his own time, God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,

So, God is the King of Kings and Lord of lords. Guess what, the Lamb/the Son/Jesus also has that attribute:

Revelation 17:14  “These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.”

Revelation 19:13, 16 – 13  He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God…………….16  And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

So, please do not just stick to verses that seem to show the Son’s inferiority to the Father and ignoring the verses that show the Son’s equality with the Father, because it was the Son’s mission on earth to become “slave/bondservant”, emptying Himself, to become inferior to the Father, and even inferior to angels!! but look also to His Status before His coming to earth (OT), sitting on the throne with seraphims around Him, and AFTER His return to His glory in heaven (Revelation) where the Son shares the same attributes and name with the God the Father: the First and the Last, the Alpha and the Omega, the Temple of Heaven, the Light in Heaven, the King of kings, the Lord of lords, sitting on one same throne with the Father.

 

[Togel]

T8,

You said:

If 5+3=8, then know that 5 and 3 are not 8 themselves. If a football team is equal to another, then by reason of that, it is not the same team, but two different teams.

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Trinitarians are not just saying that Jesus is the Father. Modalists do say that.

We say that Jesus is the Father and is NOT the Father.

You say that Jesus is NOT the Father period.

Based on the Scripture, if we take everything, we learn that Jesus is and is not the Father. So, your position and that of Modalists are, once again, only half correct.

I actually really want to see you, Unitarians and Modalists, have a debate on the nature of Jesus… must be good to watch, LOL! People who only take parts of the Scipture and consider it the whole truth!

And don’t ask me this: What are you trying to do with our Jesus? Devoid him of his unique identity? Why create him as one part of the three part God made into an image crafted from a theological mind?

Jesus explicitly said this:

John 5:23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father….. (NIV)

You seem like to want to honor the Son, Jesus, lower than you honor the Father, do you?

You are violating Jesus words here….

 

[Author]

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