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[samual]

Greetings!

I've been away for quite some time due to a prolonged battle with cancer; actually, the battle was more with radiation treatment than with the cancer itself. I seem to be recovering slowly and will try to get back on track with our consideration of the Scriptures.

Not to sound overly complaining, but I do believe Nick and Cindy have a encounter underway that really falls under a mutual and personal dislikefor each other rather than a true Scriptural consideration. The Scriptures speak for themselves, via the Holy Spirit as John 14:26; 15:26; 16:13 explains. If we insist on placing our own interpretations above the intent of the passage under examination (and there is no better way that I know of than to call it examination), then we will always arrive at the wrong answer.

The “second death” as you may recall is the only “death” that doesn't get destroyed in “the lake of fire… This is the second death, the lake of fire.” Revelation 20:14 A study of the word “Hades” and its origin will show that Hades was implanted (likely by the early congregation {church} rebels to amplify and frighten the listeners) but, in fact, meant only the common grave of mankind… Sheol, in Hebrew.

Sheol and Death are pictured as being destroyed in the lake of fire. There will be no more graveyards or need for resurrections from the grave, because there simply won't be any. But the “second death” will always remain. Why? Because, should ever the likes of Satan or Adam or as Revelation 21:8 lists surface to disrupt humankind again, they will meet a speedy end in the lake of fire, which is the “second death.” Never again will this world be forced to endure such a prolonged period just to prove some rebel as being right or wrong. God will have been justified forever, thanks to the millenniums of misery soon to end.

Give these pointe serious attention and try to avoid forcing your interpretations to negate the Word of God.

God bless!

[samual]

Nick… Greetings!

What you say is partly true. The reason I caution you ragardling this conclusion is because of what Jesus said in the following parable: Luke 19 about the minas. Check this through and let me know your findings. God bless!

[samual]

Theodorej… Greetings!

Traveling through this subject matter on Natural and Spiritual Israel according to the Scriptural evidence presented it becomes apparent that misconceptions are easily formed due to the Promises of God to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (a covenant) and the New Covenant between Jesus Christ and the Faithful Followers. It seems difficult for the reader to understand how both old and new covenants can be fulfilled when they appear to run contrary.

You mention (rightly) that Israel “is scattered throughout the four corners of the earth.” This statement is true for both Natural and Spiritual Israel, for neither one can ascertain with certainty their ancestral past. Not only that, but false prophets and teachers on both sides have turned truth inside out to confuse those seeking the purity of God’s Word and intent. But even so, there is purpose behind it. See what the Apostle Paul stated:

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 (New American Standard Bible)
“And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.”

As we can see from the religious views of both Natural Jews and many professed Spiritual Jews, neither believe Jesus to be the Son of God; that truth is hidden from them. The largest part of Christendom have Jesus as part of a Triune God, where all parts are equal. This doctrine, of course, is false as Jesus made clear in so many ways; but the lie separates “those who are perishing” from those who worship God in Spirit and Truth.

When considering the Promises of God to the Natural Jews, God has kept His word. See what the Apostle Paul says:

Romans 9:22-28 (New American Standard Bible)
“What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. As He says also in Hosea, ‘I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, 'MY PEOPLE,' AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, 'BELOVED.'” “AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD.” Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED; FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY.”

As can be seen, it isn’t the entire Jewish Nation that would listen to or accept Jesus as the Son of God, but a “remnant that will be saved.” And, as you are aware, the Twelve Apostles were Natural Israelites, all in line with God’s Promises.

But what about Jerusalem? When Jesus actually arrives with His heavenly Armies to cleanse this earth of Satanic rulership and unleash the Day of the fierce wrath of God the Almighty against the wicked and ungodly, will “God’s Kingdom on earth” (the seat of government and worship) be centered in Jerusalem as it was before?

We have evidence to the contrary. See what Jesus stated:

John 4:21-22 (New American Standard Bible)
“Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews…. God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Much of what we have been lead to believe is not in harmony with Scripture. Only by digging deeper in the Word of God and by resting our hope on His opening out eyes to Truth will we ever come out of the darkness and into His everlasting light.

God bless!

[samual]

Georg… Greetings!

Your last reply rejected the Scriptural information that refuted the idea that Natural Israel remains in God’s Favor. Both Jesus and the Apostle Paul made the point clear that “all nations” would now be termed New Jerusalem. It isn’t me that is having difficulty understanding the Word of God, but yourself. You are trapped in the idea that Natural Israel of today will be saved from the Day of God’s fierce wrath because of their still being in God’s favor, the idea, of which, was dashed by the words of both Jesus and Paul.

You say: “The fact that Israel has become a nation again, alone, is proof of that. Do you believe they could have done that on their own?”

They did not become a nation again alone; they had the help of the USA and other nations to establish their nation, and that was only due to those nation’s guilt trip for not acting to stop the genocide attempt to wipe the Jews from the planet by Hitler in the mid-1940s. The fact that Israel is again a nation is no proof that God is with them. Just as the ancient Jews dealt with the nations around them rather than obeying God, today’s Jews do likewise. They are merely a part of the ten kings as you will see as events unfold ahead of us.

God bless!

[samual]

Georg… Greetings!

Seeing that there is no inconsistency within the Scriptures, and that Jesus and the Apostles accurately represented the will of God in all their recorded words, I would have you explain to me just what Paul and Jesus meant by saying the following remarks:

Matthew 21:42-43 (New American Standard Bible)
“Jesus said to them, ‘Did you never read in the Scriptures,
'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED,
THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone;
THIS CAME ABOUT FROM THE LORD,
AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES?
Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.”

Galatians 3:28 (New American Standard Bible)
“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”

Jesus was addressing Jews (Matthew 21:45; Paul was speaking to the congregation in general (Galatians 3:26-29).

If the Natural Jews remain in God’s Favor, then Jesus and Paul must have been mistaken and the Gentiles are still out in the cold. Is that your take? I believe the Scriptures support Jesus and Paul and it is you that have the wrong slant on things. Nevertheless, do explain the variance between Jesus and Paul’s comments and that of your Scriptural references.

God bless!

[samual]

Georg… Greetings!

Your Scriptural references from Jeremiah and Ezekiel took place prior and during the Babylon era, when unrepentant Jerusalem refused to heed the warnings from these prophets and were deported to Babylon after their beloved city was taken. (circa 607 BC)

The passages you quoted showed that God would recover them from their captivity in the future. Quite obviously, then, not all were recovered. Many of the Israelites died by Babylonian swords during that time and were never repatriated to their homeland. Only a remnant survived to return to their land. (circa 537) That return ended the 70 years of desolation foretold where Jerusalem would be uninhabited until God brought them back… a remnant… in fulfillment of the Scriptures you referenced.

All this, however, does not alter my last post to you. It isn’t me that argues with your take on Scriptures; no! But the Bible does. You fail to see the spiritual side of things… how God views the New Jerusalem and those that will make up its citizens. Israel now consists of Jew and Gentile in fulfillment of prophecy, as the Scriptures I made reference to explain.

I hope this information can help you see the difference between Natural Jew and Spiritual Jew… sons of Abraham by faith, not by blood.

God bless!

[samual]

Georg… Greetings!

You say: “That covenant had nothing to do with the covenant God made with Abraham.”

I’m afraid that you are mistaken. If you look at what God said to Abraham, you can see the implications that include Abraham’s descendents:

Genesis 17:7 (New American Standard Bible)
“I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.”

The Mosaic Law was added detail, but still applied to the covenant between Abraham and God. This in now way rendered the Scriptures that you quoted as obsolete. What you fail to understand is that the “new Jerusalem” is not made up of natural Israelites only; since Peter received the vision that now included the Gentiles (Acts 10:34-35), “in every nation the man the fears Him (God) and does what is right, is welcome to Him,” not just Israelites.

As previously referenced, Paul made that point very clear:

Galatians 3:28 (New American Standard Bible)
“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”

The “new Jerusalem” consists of men from all nations. Your persistence in refusing that point is somewhat bewildering to me. If I take your insistence that the Bride of Christ consists entirely of natural Jews, then you are calling the Apostles Peter and Paul liars, which I would have to disagree with without a moment of hesitation.

Also, I well know that “other woman” has nothing to do with sex. And if you wish to get technical, “church” is not what the original Jews or Christian groups were called; it was congregation, not church. Other than that, you are correct in your assessment.

You rightly said: “The Israelites were the only people that knew the true God, YHWH.”

Romans 3:1-2 (New American Standard Bible)
“Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.”

However, that did not guarantee their compliance with the laws of God or their obedience to His covenant. See what the Apostle Paul stated:

Romans 3:9-17 (New American Standard Bible)
“What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; as it is written,
‘THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE. HEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING, THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS; WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS; THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD, DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS, AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.”

For the above reasons, the natural Jews lost out on being the sole possessors as God’s earthly representatives and the way was opened to include also the Gentiles. (Revelation 14:1-4)

God bless!

[samual]

Nick and Georg… Greetings!

What you say is Scripturally true in a sense as can be seen from the following verse:

Revelation 21:14 (New American Standard Bible)
“And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”

As you know, the twelve Apostles were all Israelites, natural Jews, as were many more during the first Century. In that sense, then, “a remnant shall be saved.” Also, the promises of God to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob we fulfilled.

However, you must factor in the “new covenant” that Jesus instituted during the last Passover with those Apostles. That event signified the end of the Mosaic Covenant and began a new relationship with God and Christ Jesus under the Kingdom of God on earth. This arrangement now contained both “Jew and Greek” and that brought another promise of God to Abraham into focus:

Genesis 22:18 (New American Standard Bible)
“In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.”

Since the Natural Israelites lost out as being an entire Nation that held prominence as priests over the spirituality of the world, now the gentiles (all nations) would play a part of the priesthood. That is the difference between the old and the new. Again, Paul made this point very clear:

Galatians 3:28 (New American Standard Bible)
“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”

God, through Jesus, brought them together to form the New Jerusalem as stated in the following verse:

Revelation 21:2 (New American Standard Bible)
“And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.”

This New Jerusalem is made up from people “of all nations” that were “purchased from among men” instead of just the Natural Israelites:

Revelation 14:4 (New American Standard Bible)
“These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb.”

As can be deduced from these Scriptures, the old Jewish Political System that remains to this day, is no more than another player in the “kings of the earth” that line up against Jesus in the scenario depicted in Revelation 19:11-21.

I know you find that hard to accept, but I am certain of its accuracy in relation to Scripture.

God bless!

[samual]

Nick and Georg… Greetings!

There are things written that obviously are difficult to comprehend for many that study the Scriptures. The relationship between ancient Israel and God as it was in the past is just one of those.

You made reference to several passages to support your view that Natural Israel remains in God’s favor. Let’s examine a couple of them for clarity:

“Romans 9:6
But it is not as though the word of God has failed For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;”

This passage from the Apostle Paul draws out more than what you have concluded. As Paul says, “For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel.” And, if you read the first few verses of his comments, you can see what the point was:

Romans 9:1-4 (New American Standard Bible)
“I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises… .”

Here Paul conceded that “my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites” as “accursed, separated from Christ” because they did not accept “THE DELIVERER… FROM ZION” who, of course, was Jesus. (Romans 11:26)

The Apostle Peter said the following:

Acts 3:22-23 (New American Standard Bible)
“Moses said, 'THE LORD GOD WILL RAISE UP FOR YOU A PROPHET LIKE ME FROM YOUR BRETHREN; TO HIM YOU SHALL GIVE HEED to everything He says to you. And it will be that every soul that does not heed that prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’”

The Israelites failed to heed that prophet, Jesus, hence the reason for that Nation of Israel losing out on the promises of God, and the necessity of a “New Covenant” that was initiated at the last supper between Jesus and His Disciples. (Luke 22:17-20) That “new covenant” is between God and those Spiritual Israelites who embrace Jesus as the Son of God as the Scripture relates:

1 Peter 2:4-6 (New American Standard Bible)
“And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God, you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For this is contained in Scripture: ‘BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER stone, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.’”

When reading about the Israel of God, you must understand that the Scriptures speak of the “New Israel” the new nation consisting of both natural Jew and Greek, just as the Apostle Paul related here:

Galatians 3:28-29 (New American Standard Bible)
“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.”

God bless!

[samual]

Georg… Greetings!

I can agree with much of your understanding about the upcoming end of this system of things, but not this comment:

“Rev. 21:8 has no relevance to the previous scripture. These are the kind of people who in this life have done such evil crimes, that after they were resurrected they could not, or would not repent; they ended up in the lake of fire.”

What I was making reference to was the attitudes of those described in this verse, not that it applied directly to Revelation 19:11-21. As you say, “God's wrath on the world is not “the great tribulation”, although there will much tribulation, and very few men are left” which equates to what I have been saying all along… there will be “very few men left.”

Why, then, are there “very few men left?” Because they fit the description of Revelation 21:8 and will not survive the battle of Armageddon when the wicked and ungodly are destroyed. God will not allow these types to enter into the new World Government, else there would be nothing new in the New World, and evil doers would still remain to cause further chaos.

As for the great tribulation not happening, time will tell whether or not that will happen in the near future. I suspect it will, you suspect it won’t. We will watch and see.

God bless!

[samual]

Nick… Greetings!

You appear to be convinced that Natural Israel remains in God’s favor and reject all Scriptural reference that refutes that claim. By so doing, Nick, you negate the sacrifice Jesus made on behalf all mankind.

Both Jesus and the Apostle Paul made it very clear that this arrangement was no longer in effect when they said:

Matthew 21:43 (New American Standard Bible)
“Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.”

Luke 3:8 (New American Standard Bible)
“Therefore bear fruits in keeping with repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our father,' for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham.”

Galatians 3:28 (New American Standard Bible)
“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”

The “people producing the fruit of it” (the kingdom) is no longer limited to the Israelite Nation, but encompasses all nations (people from all nations) that believe and obey Christ Jesus by following His lead. Natural Israel has been replaced by Spiritual Israel, those that, like Abraham, have faith in the promises of God and accept Jesus as their redeemer and Son of God. Once you understand these points, you can proceed to the deeper things of God.

God bless!

[samual]

Georg… Greetings!

You are correct in your assessment and application of the timing of events mentioned. However, I was attempting to draw out the implications stated so clearly in Revelation 21:8 as they relate to Revelation 19:11-21.

If we go back to other Scriptures, perhaps you can better see what I meant:

Matthew 24:37-39 (New American Standard Bible)
“For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.”

Genesis 6:5 (New American Standard Bible)
“Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.”

Genesis 6:13 (New American Standard Bible)
“Then God said to Noah, ‘The end of all flesh has come before Me; for the earth is filled with violence because of them; and behold, I am about to destroy them with the earth.’”

Genesis 7:1 (New American Standard Bible)
“Then the LORD said to Noah, ‘Enter the ark, you and all your household, for you alone I have seen to be righteous before Me in this time.’”

As these Scriptures point out, there is a criteria that must be met for survival through the great tribulation that culminates in the day “of the fierce wrath of God the Almighty.” (Revelation 19:15) This time period in which we now live is being assessed as to who will be saved and who will not. As Revelation 19:11-21 and 21:8 indicates, those falling into the categories listed will not survive this upcoming war. Survivors will not be such by chance. They will have to meet a strict criteria, as is brought out clearly in the following Scriptures:

Revelation 19:20 (New American Standard Bible)
“And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.”

Revelation 14:9-10 (New American Standard Bible)
“Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, ‘If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.’”

Contrasted to Noah’s day, those survivors will be a great crowd or multitude, as the Scripture points out. (Revelation 7:9,14) However, when weighed with the current world population, more in tune with the Day of Noah and the eight surviving souls.

God bless!

[samual]

Nick… Greetings!

Your reply indicates to me that you are on the right track in what you understand about Revelation 19:11-21, but with one slight deviation, I believe. Let me explain from what the Scriptures tell us:

Revelation 19:15 (New American Standard Bible)
“From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.”

Revelation 19:19 (New American Standard Bible)
“And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.”

Verse 15 depicts future events when Jesus Christ arrives to take control of this earth away from the worldly “nations” on the day when “He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.” This event, as you will notice, encompasses all “the kings of the earth and their armies” not just those around Jerusalem.

Of interest, too, is that those “kings and their armies” are “assembled to make war against Him” (Jesus) which must indicate some action taking place prior to this “war” that gathers these “kings” against those remaining “faithful and chosen” followers of Jesus Christ, for as Jesus said, “The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’”
Matthew 25:40 (New American Standard Bible)

It also appears to me that you believe Jerusalem will be rescued from the upcoming tribulation. However, Nick, the Scriptures do not suggest this idea to be true. Recall this passage:

Matthew 21:42-43 (New American Standard Bible)
“Jesus said to them, ‘Did you never read in the Scriptures,
'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED,
THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone;
THIS CAME ABOUT FROM THE LORD,
AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES'?
Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.”
The “people producing the fruit of it” (the kingdom of God) is no longer the natural Jews, as even the Apostle Paul made clear:

Galatians 3:27-29 (New American Standard Bible)
“For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.”

For their rejection of Jesus they lost out on the position they once held as God’s representatives. That places them among the “kings of the earth and their armies” and “against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.” They will receive no protection during this upcoming “war” and the “fierce wrath of God the Almighty.”

Food for thought. God bless!

[samual]

To All… Greetings!

If, then, we understand that Revelation 14:1,4 directly relates to the “elect” or the “chosen ones” who have been “purchased from among men” to reign as “kings and priests” with Christ Jesus over the earth for “a thousand years” what about those who will be earthly subjects of God's Kingdom on earth? Who are they? I leave you with Revelation 19:11-21 and 21:8 to consider. God bless!

[samual]

To All… Greetings!

Getting back to the “second death” I think we should consider a couple of Scriptures that will open up another view of what it means:

Revelation 2:11 (New American Standard Bible)
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.”

Revelation 20:6 (New American Standard Bible)
“Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.”

1 Corinthians 15:52-54 (New American Standard Bible)
“…in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, ‘DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.’”

Revelation 21:8 (New American Standard Bible)
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Revelation 20:14 (New American Standard Bible)
“Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire This is the second death, the lake of fire.”

Since this last Scripture makes it very clear that “the lake of fire… is the second death” from which there is no resurrection, and those that
“will not be hurt by the second death” are those that “overcome,” we have to look further into the Scriptures to understand just who these that “overcome” really are.

The Apostle John gives us a hint:

1 John 5:4 (New American Standard Bible)
“For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world–our faith.”

Jesus made the following statement:

John 16:33 (New American Standard Bible)
“These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world.”

Again, this statement begs the question: “How does one overcome the world?

And the answer is:

Revelation 2:26 (New American Standard Bible)
“He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS… .”

How, then, is this “authority over the nations” factored into it?

Revelation 3:21 (New American Standard Bible)
“He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.”

Obviously, the only way these that “overcome” can achieve this authority is by being among the “first resurrection,” those that have “put on immortality” and can no longer be “hurt by the second death.”
These are the ones “the bride of Christ” that will co-rule with Christ as ‘kings and priests” over the earth for a thousand years.

Of interest, too, is the Scripture that has already been considered, but worth a second look:

Revelation 20:14 (New American Standard Bible)
“Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire This is the second death, the lake of fire.”

This verse tells us that “death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire” which is “the second death.” Nowhere does this verse suggest that the “second death” is ever eliminated. Therefore, since those of the first resurrection have put on immortality and can no longer die, those that can suffer the second death must be those that remain on earth as subjects of the Kingdom of God.

Your thoughts are awaited. God bless!

[samual]

Georg… Greetings!

There seems to be a couple of spots in your comments that lead me to believe that you misunderstood my point. I’ll try to address them again but with more clarity.

The first remark you made was this: “You say the 200 million are angels, you say the third part of men were killed by the angels.”

Although the “200 million” referred to in Revelation Chapter 9:16 seem to relate back to verse 3, there appears to be a difference. First off, verse 3 takes place when the Fifth Trumpet sounds; verse 16 occurs during the sounding of the Sixth Trumpet. This variance indicates a time change between the two events. Another point of difference to consider is that during the Fifth Trumpet Sounding these “scorpions” as stated, “were not permitted to kill anyone.” (Verse 5) while the “four angels” (verse 15) during the Sixth Trumpet sounding, “were released so that they might kill a third of mankind.”

Did I say they were angels? Not so! The Scriptures did. Read for yourself.

The next point you mentioned was this: “Israel is not one of the heads/kings the woman is sitting on, besides, by the time John received this vision, the nation Israel no longer existed.”

If you recheck my comment you will find that I was alluding to the fact that Israel was not one of the “heads/kings” but was, by her actions, a part of the “woman” that makes up Babylon the Great, merely a segment of false religion. How often did God refer to “her” as a harlot or an adulterous woman? She fits in very well.

Your next point of contention: “All these dead saints, from all nations, came out of great tribulation, no were does the Bible say, “the” great tribulation.”

Perhaps you are reading your Scriptures from another translation. They sometimes miss a word or two when comparing Scripture with Scripture, however, they are still making reference to the same thing. But here are the translations that do contain the word “the”:

Revelation 7:14 (New American Standard Bible)
“I said to him, ‘My lord, you know.’ And he said to me, ‘These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.’”

Revelation 7:14 (Darby Translation)
“And I said to him, My lord, *thou* knowest. And he said to me, These are they who come out of the great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and have made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”

Revelation 7:14 (American Standard Version)
“And I say unto him, My lord, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they that come of the great tribulation, and they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”

Revelation 7:14 (Young's Literal Translation)
“…and I have said to him, ‘Sir, thou hast known;’ and he said to me, ‘These are those who are coming out of the great tribulation, and they did wash their robes, and they made their robes white in the blood of the Lamb… .’”

Just a few references to let you know that I haven’t doctored up the passage to prove my point.

Your next question: “Do you think any one will recognize the opening stages?”

The stage is already being setup for this event. Only those that “keep awake” to world events as they unfold with Scriptural prophecy will recognize the time of the end. The rest will remain blind until it’s too late.

Your thoughts are awaited. God bless!

[samual]

Georg… Greetings!

Let me take another look at this your questions:

“An army 200 million strong? I did not say it could not be possible; the question is, would it be necessarily? Also, today were military is being deployed over oceans; do you think a river would cause a problem to cross?”

The first point that comes to mind, dealing with the first question “would it be necessary?”, is that the record tells us that it was “the four angels” that “were released so that they might kill a third of mankind.” (Revelation 9:14-15) Also of note is the point that what these “four angels” used to kill off a third of mankind was termed “plagues” which you have associated with World War 2 and its military hardware. Of interest, too, is the reason why these “plagues” were sent against mankind: “so as not to worship demons, and the idols of gold and of silver and brass and of stone and of wood.” (verse 20)

Obviously, this releasing of plagues was an attack against the idolatry so rampant throughout the world and seems to have more to do with spirituality than physical warfare. For that reason, then, I tend toward seeing metaphoric dialogue that pertains to the Worldwide spiritual condition that went contrary to God’s intention.

Second question: “Was it necessary?”

If we look back into Scriptural History, we can see just how potent the power of angels really is:

2 Kings 19:35 (New American Standard Bible)
“Then it happened that night that the angel of the LORD went out and struck 185,000 in the camp of the Assyrians; and when men rose early in the morning, behold, all of them were dead.”

It doesn’t appear necessary to engage 200 million angels to clean up a third of mankind when just one angel can do such a thorough job as that listed above.

The next point that you raise I have to both agree and to disagree with; let’s see your comment:

“This woman/church is showing to sit on all worldly kingdoms, meaning, all kingdoms have been influenced by false religion.

With all due respect, the nation Israel, or Jerusalem, have nothing to do with the whore of Rev. 17.”

I do agree with you that this “woman” represents false religion; false religion, of course, represents “all” religions that teach or believe what is contrary to God’s Word. Having said that, how is it that the Nation of Israel, as you say, “have nothing to do with the Whore?” Do they not teach their flock (orthodox Judaism) against Christ as being God’s Only Begotten Son? I see no difference between them and any other false religion. Besides, look how God views them:

Jeremiah 3:8 (New American Standard Bible)
“And I saw that for all the adulteries of faithless Israel, I had sent her away and given her a writ of divorce, yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear; but she went and was a harlot also.”

Jeremiah 3:6 (New American Standard Bible)
“Then the LORD said to me in the days of Josiah the king, ‘Have you seen what faithless Israel did? She went up on every high hill and under every green tree, and she was a harlot there.’”
Has anything really changed with the Nation of Israel? I think not. So they, too, are very much a part of Babylon the Great, as is also true of Christendom.

This is your Scriptural quote that I wish to explore more fully:

“Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands… ” (and) “Mat. 24:21 is for the Jews only.”

Doesn’t your conclusion that the “great tribulation” is for the Jews only conflict with “of all nations?” I think you are mistaken. The Great Tribulation encompasses the entire Globe, not just one locale or nation, but as the verse makes clear, “all nations, and kindreds, and peoples, and tongues.” By restricting this event to the Jews only, you detract from the intent of God.

Also, you say: “Jacob is Israel, the children of Daniels people are the Jews, they are God's elect.”

The Scriptures tell us something different; as the Apostle Paul relates:

Romans 2:28-29 (New American Standard Bible)
“For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.”

Galatians 3:27-29 (New American Standard Bible)
“For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.”

The “New Covenant” was made to cover all nations, uniting all nations under one banner as Spiritual Israelites. Therefore, as the Scriptures insist, the “Great Tribulation’” remains for all nations to face, yet in the future. As the Scripture points out, the only even that holds off this Day of God’s fierce wrath” is this:

Revelation 7:3 (New American Standard Bible)
“…saying, ‘Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads.’”

Matthew 24:14 (New American Standard Bible)
“This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.”

As I see it, that search for the elect or bond-servants is all that remains to be completed prior to God’s Day of Wrath, which will begin with the “great Tribulation.” During the opening stages of that day, Babylon the Great will be crushed out of existence by the Eighth King and the “ten horns.” (Revelation 17:9-13)

As always, I await your response. God Bless!

[samual]

Georg… Greetings!

I find your work on “The Seven Trumpets and The Seven Bowls” quite fascinating. You have placed all these events in the past with diligence toward historical accounts that seem to line up very well with recorded Scriptural prophecy. However, although I do not profess to understand all the metaphoric dialogue within the Scriptures, and especially the Revelation account, I remain skeptical of some points you listed as having taken place in the past, as well as your conclusions.

Let me examine this comment:

“In Rev. 9:16 we are given a number of 200 million; are we then to assume that the Assyrians had an army exceeding 200 million? The Huns were in fact called an army of horsemen because of their fighting skills on horseback. But if we take this number literal, we should also ask some “literal” questions. Could there have been an army of 200 million men in the 5th century, or any century for that matter? Who would have commanded it? And how? Would such an army have been logistically possible? Would such an army have been necessary? The same questions apply if we think that this is an army of the future. Think about it; in today’s specialized, mechanized, and computerized military of every branch, what country could and would want to mobilize an army that size? Besides, would 200 million soldiers plus their equipment even fit in the Valley of Megiddo?”

Looking back into the timeframe of the “Huns” an army of 200 million, I believe, was very unlikely. (Not that I have any such evidence to support or deny this point.) Dealing with Revelation 9:16, verse 18 states that “a third of mankind was killed by these plagues.” Since I am unaware of any census having been taken during that time, I cannot but suspect that a “third of mankind” being killed was unlikely.

But as for your “literal” question: “Could there have been an army of 200 million men in the 5th century, or any century for that matter?” what about our present time? I am certain that you know that China has an estimated population of 1.3 Billion, most, of which, are combat ready at a moment’s notice. Two hundred Million militants would be easily mustered should the need arise, and even a greater number than that. Depending on geographical evidence of today, could this massive army more aptly apply to our modern day situation, in particular, China and its anti-god communistic values? Revelation 16:12

Your remark, “Great Babylon is symbolic for all false religion” aligns with Scriptural evidence. (Revelation 17 &18) The Preterist View that Babylon The Great was none other than 1st Century Jerusalem and was climaxed in that City’s destruction by the Roman Army, limit’s these events to the Jewish Nation. This wouldn’t cover “all” false religion so I can not agree with their conclusion.

This is your comment taken from your post of the 29th of December 2008:

“The woman sitting on the beast in Rev. 17:3 symbolizes religion/church. Sitting on the seven heads/governments shows that religion has influenced all governments.
The pope is the Antichrist of the Bible, he did everything that Rev. 13 said he would do. He is the image of the beast/Rome; he caused the image to speak/rule; he made war with the saints, persecuted them for 1,260 years. He began to rule in 565 AD, and was dethroned by Napoleon in 1813 AD.

Dan 11:36 And the king (Napoleon) shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god (ruler), and shall speak marvelous things against the God of gods (ruler of rulers, the pope), and shall prosper till the indignation (humiliation) be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

Napoleon imprisoned the pope in 1809 and made him sign a document, turning the Papal states and other powers over to him, the pope was then released in 1813.”

I do not question your dates of events, just your conclusion. The reason for this is found in the following passage:

Revelation 17:15-16 (New American Standard Bible)
“And he said to me, ‘The waters which you saw where the harlot sits, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues. And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire.”

From this passage we can see that it is “peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues” involved during the time of Babylon the Great’s destruction. Not just Rome and France, but “nations.” For that reason I suspect Napoleon was merely a blimp on the chart during the 1800s.
Babylon the Great still sits “As a Queen” (Revelation 18:7) and has yet to be burnt up with fire. (Revelation 17:16) I know that the language is symbolic… true! But the effect of this symbolism will be real. Making Babylon the Great “desolate and naked” as the Scripture relates, can be accomplished by the “ten kings” via such a simple maneuver as taxation. Perhaps as events are playing out these days by the many lawsuits brought against various Christian Denominations because of sexual misconduct practiced over so many decades. But one thing is certain: Babylon will Fall in the near future. (Revelation 18:8)

Your statement: “Mat.24:21 speaks of the greatest tribulation the Jews ever had endure; it happened during the reign of Adolph Hitler, and had Germany won the war, there would be no flesh/Jew alive today.”

As you are aware, some consider the greatest Tribulation the Jews ever endured was in the 1st Century when Roman Armies totally destroyed their Holy City and its temple. But as you say, Hitler wiped out more Jews than the Romans. Still, there’s a problem here. See where the source of that problem resides:

Revelation 7:9 (New American Standard Bible)
“After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands… .”

The “great tribulation” spoken of by Jesus at Matthew 24:21 is reiterated here. It must be noted that “this great multitude… from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues” is not restricted to the Israelite Nation. Therefore, the great tribulation referred to must point into the future. I suspect very strongly that that future is not far off.

Do send me your thoughts on this post. God bless!

[samual]

Samual… Greetings!

As you likely are quite aware, the entire Bible contains much metaphoric language, especially the Revelation account by John. But Jesus and the Apostles accepted the Scriptures as the Word of God; and seeing that God never lies, what is written within the Bible, is the truth. However, it does require reasoning to ascertain the facts.

Take the Rich man and Lazarus allegory, for example. The Scriptures make it very clear that there is no consciousness when the soul dies. This point is made many times: Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10 Psalms 146:4 Ezekiel 18:4,20.

What Jesus was trying to get across was the fact that there is no way for the dead to change places with the living, that today is the time to make amends for past actions. Once judgment has been passed, there will be no opportunity left to change the verdict.

The Second Death, as it goes, is merely a state of non-existence, where the body dissolves away to dust and never has another chance to live again. It’s gone forever. The 144,000 (Revelation 14:1-5; 20:4-6) that are “purchased from among men” are given immortality and are no longer subject to the Second Death. Their loyalty to God and Christ will never be questioned again. Not so with those of the Second Resurrection. Should they ever rebel against God in the future, they will experience the second death from which there is no further resurrection. They will simply be gone forever. Revelation 20:14-15

Eternal Torment means that their deaths will be forever. God does not literally torture anyone. These are simply metaphoric expression that were written this was to drive home the importance of falling victim to the Second Death.

I hope this helps you see the Truth of God’s Word and its application to our future in God’s Kingdom on earth.

God bless!

[samual]

Georg… Greetings!

I have read through your “Seven Trumpets and Seven Bowls” Post and will do so again very shortly before I make any comment.

I do have a comment on the remarks you gave to Nick about people posting to state their views and not wanting to learn anything. It strikes me as a bit unfair. Now, I cannot speak for them, but I believe people place their views on boards like this to “test out” their belief, not just to air them for acclaim. Scripturally speaking, they are encouraged to “test the spirits to see whether they are from God.” 1 John 4:1 Also, in 1 Thessalonians 5:21 we are counseled to “examine everything carefully…” making certain that our understanding of God’s Word is “as it ought.” 1 Corinthians 8:2
Anyway, that is my thought on your comment. I don’t mean to criticize, merely to suggest consideration for those that seem set in their belief. (2 Timothy 2:24-26)

God bless!

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