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[marthinus]

Hi CultB
Just to clear things up I dont believe what the Arians and Jehova Witnesses believe. I do not believe that Jesus was a created being. My Belief is based on what I see and read in scripture, and I ask myself Why did Jesus not just say it in clear unambigous terms that he is God in the same clear way that he said that he was the Son. Why did he not explain the God Head or trinity in clear language to his disciples he would have known that one day there would be people like us debating that very issue and it is not just us, but it has happened through the ages, people burned on the stake because of this. Why is it so hard when it it actually so clear.

marthinus

[marthinus]

Tim2
See 1Corinthians 3:23 and ye are Christ's and Christ is God's This does not say Christ is God.

marthinus

[marthinus]

Hi Tim2

I wrote the following “Had 'theos' as well as 'logos' been preceded by the article the meaning would have been that the Word was completely identical with God, which is impossible if the Word was also 'with God'. What is meant is that the Word shared the nature of God, or was an extension of the personality of God.” I believe as the Son of God he shared the nature and personality of God. Read Col 2:9 (King James) For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead. or as the (New American Standard)reads “For in him all the fullness of Deity (Divine attributes and nature) dwells in bodily form.” These scriptures do not say that Jesus is Deity. If we read 1Corinthians 6:19 What! know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? Does this mean I am the Holy Gost because he dwells in me? Also Read 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 (King James) “For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6 but to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. Why does Paul seperate God in Jesus in this way, Why did he not just use the first part of verse 6. Empasis is also on 'and we in Him' meaning God and 'and we by him' Jesus. But if we read this in the context of John 1:1-18 it makes perfect sense. Can you explain 1Corinthians 15:27-28 I Quote verse 28 'And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. Also read the New American Standard version quite interesting. However I prefer to use the KJV though.

marthinus

[marthinus]

Hi CBuster and Worshipping Jesus

You Quoted “Some on this forum just want to look at Bible verses that are in the context of Christ mission as Messiah but don't like when shown the multitude of scripture identifying Him as the divine Jehovah God.
Jesus Christ is the creator, not a creature and will always be equal to the Father in this sense. Jn 1:1 says, “and the word was God”…. ”

I agree with jou fully that Jesus Christ is the creator in the context of John 1:1-18. You mention Jn 1:1 says, “and the word was God…” Yea this is a stumbling block for many (Jehovas witnesses etc) but let us look at it in depth and in context with rest of the Gospel of John. I used as reference the works of F.F.Bruce.

In the creation narrative at the beginning of Genesis we read repeatedly that 'God said…..and it was so' This can be expressed in other terms, as in Ps 33.6, 'By the word of the LORD the heavens were made'. When this form of language is used , the way is open to personify 'the word of the LORD' and treat it as his agent or messenger. Similarly, alongside the statement that 'the LORD said to Isaiah….' (Isa 7:3) we may be told that 'the word of the LORD came to Isaiah (Isa 38:4). Again, the two statements are synonymous , but the latter of the two 'the word of the LORD' can be pictured as a messanger sent by God to the prophet Isaiah. An even more telling instance of this usage appears in Ps. 107:20. There men are portrayed suffering near-mortal sickness and crying to God for help, whereupon 'He sent forth his word, and healed them, and delivered them from destruction.' It is recognizably a development of the prophetic conception of Gods word as his messenger, unerringly fulfilling his commission, as in Isaiah 55:11 'My word…that goes forth from my mouth …..shall not return to me empty; but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and prosper in the thing for which I send it.'

In the beginning', then, when the universe was brought into existance, the divine Word by which it was brought into existance was already there.(First part of John1:1) And the language which follows shows that John has no mere literary personification in mind. The personal status which he ascribes to the Word is a matter of real existence; (I hope you agree) The relation which the Word bears to God is a personal relation: 'the Word was with God'. This statement has profound theological implications, but these implications are not involved in the choice of the Greek preposition 'pros' (a preposition links nouns, pronouns and phrases to other words in a sentence) to denote 'with'. True in literary Greek this is not a common sense of 'pros' but 'pros' in this sense can be paralleled within the fourfold Gospel in the most ordinary and everyday context. When the Nazarenes say of Jesus in Mark 6:3, are not his sisters here with us?', the Greek word translated 'with' is 'pros' . The Word of God is distinguished from God himself, and yet exists in a close personal relation with him; moreover, the Word shares the very nature of God, for 'the Word was God'.

The structure of the third clause in verse 1, demands the translation 'The Word was God'. Since 'logos' has the article preceding it, it is marked out as the subject. The fact that 'theos' is the first word after the conjunction 'kai' ('and') shows that the main emphasis of the clause lies on it. Had 'theos' as well as 'logos' been preceded by the article the meaning would have been that the Word was completely identical with God, which is impossible if the Word was also 'with God'. What is meant is that the Word shared the nature of God, or was an extension of the personality of God. The NEB paraphrase 'what God was, the Word was', brings out the meaning of the clause as successfully as a paraphrase can. 'John intends that the whole of his gospel shall be read in the light of this verse. The deeds and words of Jesus are the deeds and words of God; if this is not true the book is blasphemous'.

So when heaven and earth were created, there was the Word of God, already existing in the closest association with God and partaking of the essence of God. No matter how far back we may try to push our imagination, we can never reach a point at which we could say of the Divine Word, as Arius did, 'There was once when he was not' (Do you know who Arius was?)

I sincerly hope you understand what I am trying to say.

Marthinus

[marthinus]

Hi CBuster

Thanx for your time and effort of your response. I just want to correct you I never said that Jesus was a created being read John1:14 used (G3439) John 1:18 used (G3439) John3:16 used(G3439) John 3:18(G3439) (Begotten meaning only born Strongs G3439) Begotten can also mean regeneration as in Acts 13:33 Strongs G1080 1Cor 4:15 (G3439). The way I understand it that if you are born of your father you are not his creation correct. I too understand the metaphor used “seated at the right hand of power” read Gen 48:13-19 Jacob blessing Ephraim and Manasseh.

To get back to John 10:33 On his works, apart from his words, they might have been able to put a different interpretation, but his words were unambiguous. While he subordinated himself to God, as the Son to the Father, yet he claimed to be one with the father, placing himself on the other side of the chasm that seperated God from man, the Creator from the creature. The logic of their argument seemed incapable of refutation: this was blasphemy, an offence that involved the whole community in serious guilt, unless the perpertrator were put away from among his people, 'cut off from Israel'. However as readers of the Gospel of John we know better, we can follow it's record of the sayings and actions of Jesus in the light of the prologue, (John 1:1-18)from which we have already learned that Jesus is the incarnate Word, that Word which in the beginning was with God and was God. We have learned to that Jesus is uniquely the Son who has his being in the Father's bosom and has come forth from God to make Him known in the world.(John 1:18) High as His claims are, then they are grounded in the truth of his being and his mission: his works are the works of God; his words are the words of God. He is not 'making himself God'; he is not making himself anything, but in word and work he is showing himself to be what he truly is – the Son sent by the Father to bring light and life to mankind. (F.F. Bruce The Gospel of John)

Marthinus

[marthinus]

Tim2
Thanx for your posting I would just like to explain from my perspective I do not take away or add to any of the scriptures, I base my belief on what I read in the scriptures, as that is the only truth I can go by It is the blue print for my salvation and my hope in Jesus. I believe that the scriptures is only one aspect (a very imortant one) of being a Christian or being a believer. I too believe in a living God with whom I have a personal relationship on a daily basis, I believe that this relationship that I have with God was made possible through Jesus Christ by Him dying on the cross for my sins. I have experienced God on a daily basis in my life and my work, the changes that took place within my being after accepting Jesus Christ as my Saviour, the radical change of world view that is what afirms my faith in God and proves to me that He is real and that he loves me. Experiencing the Holy Spirit working in me, changing me, guideing me, teaching me, this real experience is often dificult to explain to non believers and we are often mocked by people of the world because of this change that happens when we turn to God through Jesus.

marthinus

[marthinus]

Hi Cult buster

In all honesty if you read Mark 14:61 The high priest asked Jesus whether he is the Son of the blessed One (I presume God is here the Blessed One) And Jesus answers him Yes I am (admitting that he is the son of the Blessed One) In verse 62 He (Jesus) also tells the high priest that he will SEE (the high priest and his co accusers) the Son of Man (whom I percieve to be Jesus) to sit on the right hand of Power (Right Hand of Power I percieve to be God) Now Can you honestly without any doubt say that Jesus said that he is God English is my second language and I certainly don't read it that way.

Marthinus

[marthinus]

To Tim2
Dont you think your attitude is unbecoming of a true believer in Christ, Nick Hassan has answered hundreds of questions even the most trivial ones, never getting angry, personal or sarcastic. This website is testamony to his indurance, patience and his love of God and his Son Jesus Christ. Thank you Nick for helping me to see the Truth. Tim2 go and read Prov 8:22-36 and Psalm 22, also read 1Corinthians 1:3-9

Marthinus

[marthinus]

Hi Cult Buster

Exactly because he was begotten of God Before creation. We can go through all these and start this forum al over again.

Lets look at John 5:18 I dont see where Jesus calls himself God, He was however calling God his own Father (We agree on this), the Jews made the assumption that he was making himself equal with God not Jesus.

Lets look at John 10:30-33 You must read on to verse 36 the emphasis on whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said I am the Son of God? (Note the question mark, Jesus is repeating the acusation in verse 33 and then repeating what he meant, because I said I am the Son of God)

Look at John 14:28-31 and explain what Jesus meant when he said the following: rejoice because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Read Psalm 110
Very very important Read Psalm 22 Tel me who this is about (verse 16 to 19) also what was Jesus words on the cross Matthew 27:46 Dont you think Psalm 22:1 is remarkably similar and that verse 16 to 19 is a coincidance. Who is the LORD in verse 19 and who is praying? Verse 22

Working on the rest of the scriptures

Love you in Christ Jesus

marthinus

[marthinus]

Hi Cult Buster

Jesus was conceived by the Holy Ghost (Matthew 1:18 and 20), ie the Holy Ghost is the Father of Jesus. In Matthew 3:16-17 The Spirit confirms, is witness to the fact that Jesus is his Son. Then read 1 John 5:9-12. Do we want to make God a Lair? Through these scriptures (easy to interpret) in Matthew we can therefore say that the Father and the Holy Ghost is one. (Correct me if I am wrong) God the Father and God is a Spirit (John 4:24) how can there be two seperate Spirits or persons acording to the trinity doctrine. Also you guys argue your doctrine around two or three verses which are all highly debateable as is seen in this forum, when 99.9% of the text speaks the contrary in clear unambiguous terms. Can we honestly ask our self the question. Is it reasonable to build any Doctrine on such a weak foundation? (Read 2John verse 9 and take it very serious as it is a matter of life and death). Also can any part of God the Allmighty die is he not immortal according to the scripture, it just does not add up.

Love you in Christ Jesus
Marthinus

Always remember the three H's when studying the scriptures: Be Hungry, Be Honest, Be Humble

[marthinus]

To charity

Does that mean Jesus is God and that he will be with us for ever? Or that God the father is with us and that Immanuel is the afirmation of this, his new covenant.

[marthinus]

To all in this debate

Can any of you translate the word “Immanuel” to me in Matthew 1:23 ?

Marthinus

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