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[life_of_praise]

Mercy, I think you need to read the Scriptures that I have posted. John the Divine did not say that he bowed out of fear and awe. That is not what he said.

And lastly cubes, as for this site, no, I'm not leaving. 🙂 As for this thread yes, you're not going to change my mind or vice versa. Other things were pointed out but certain things were focused on…and that's fine.

I asked the Lord to show me and He did. I trust what I have learned via the Holy Spirit. But going on about something that neither one of us is going to bend on is rather pointless. I'm not trying to be rude so please don't take it as such.

See you around on other threads! God Bless you!

[life_of_praise]

Cubes…you seem to have left out worship.

John the Divine…whoever that may be… bowed down and started worshipping. That angel had to tell him at different times(twice) not to do that.

Again, if you guys choose to continue on with Revelations…that's fine… but my study…led by the Holy Spirit has showed me too many red, red flags.

The end of times was already revealed to us by Jesus and the OT prophets.

No need for the prophecies to be re-prophesized.

Jesus made it clear about the end times. And His warning about let no man deceive you…is good enough for me.

I'm gonna stick with that.

Have a good one and may God Bless you!

🙂

[life_of_praise]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 03 2006,01:43)

Hi lop, Other christians feed happily on this good food and it is you who have found it distasteful. We do not judge it or John and need to justify our adherence to it because it is greater than us being written by the Spirit of God.

And many…many Christians ignore that book. Say it's confusing…doesn't make sense.

If you want to feed on the Book of Revelations…then by all means, do it.

But I'll stick with who Jesus actually quoted from…Daniel.

The Prophet our Heavenly Father gave visions too and were
explained

[life_of_praise]

Lord Jesus Christ already explained that in Matthew 24

That's why He starts out with

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

He's telling us right there…in Matthew, Mark and Luke what to look for..the signs. Right there!

Quoting Daniel…Lord Jesus Christ tells us…Mat 24:15 When you therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoever reads, let him understand:)

Go back to Daniel…matches up. His prophecy and what our Lord Jesus Christ says.

Jesus not once quoted from the book of Revelation…but He did quote from Daniel. If it's from Jesus…don't you think He would have quoted Scriptures from His own revelation?

Hmmmm….

That's says a lot!

[life_of_praise]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 03 2006,01:30)

Hi lop, Jesus did not quote from any of the gospels or the letters of the apostles either. Did those speak the Words of God, or should only the OT be taken without a grain of salt?

Jesus quoted from the Old Testament.

The Gospels were written about Jesus and all the wonderful things He said and done.

The letters…Jesus was sitting on the right hand of God.

Revelations…tried to take from the 3 OT books…claim it was a revelation of some sort.

Again..Revelations prophesizes what was already prophesized.

Prophesizing a prophesy.

[life_of_praise]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 03 2006,01:11)

Quote (david @ Oct. 03 2006,00:37) Quote Why is he bowing to angels? Because an angel is very powerful creature, and one that if you suddenly saw it in it's glory, may cause you to fall to the ground.  But he was corrected. Quote Rev 22:8  And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship [Gk proskyneo] before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. The word proskyneo can be translated in a number of ways.  It simply means to bow down, show obeisance, honor and respect and can mean to worship.  Your Bible translator believes in the trinity.  So, he wants to show Jesus being worthy of worship and hence, being God.  That is translational bias.  Please see the “worship” thread on Jesus.   A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John 1:1 This angel presented it in signs to John.  In this verse: Quote Rev 1:10  I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, We see that by inspiration John came to be in the Lord's day.  Remember, the angel was presenting it in signs.  So in 4:2 it seems that in an instant of time, John is spiritually transported by God’s spirit (active force) to the very throne of Jehovah. Hi david, I think it more likely that it was a vision seen by John while on earth as God cannot be seen by man. Anyone who is repulsed by this book is showing they have yet to be blessed by the gift of God's Spirit. Ask for it LOP.

Now stop.

I've prayed, studied and have compared and studied and prayed and of course asked the Holy Spirit guide me to truth.

Can you honestly say that you have asked the Lord to do that with you in Revelations and really put forth the effort to study?

Anytime someone sees things differently…the first thing people say is well they don't have the Holy Spirit. That's as bad as certain denominations say…well they were never saved to begin with.

That's wrong to say and wrong to do.

And to be honest, all I see is lame excuses to why John the Divine bows to angels and both times the angels tell him not to do that.

There's no excuse for John to say “like unto”. He's either the Son of man or He's not. The prophets in the OT said that because they have never…never seen Jesus.

This John is supposedly was with Jesus. One would think He would know Jesus.

And if he wasn't sure…since he said “like unto”…why is someone going to drop to their need and face to the ground and worship?

Something doesn't add up folks…and it's not that I haven't received the Holy Spirit.

Open your eyes and study and ask the Lord to lead you.

[life_of_praise]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 03 2006,01:13)

hi LOP, There are seven[the perfect number] churches shown in Rev 2-3.

Cross reference to where in the Bible? Revelations?

Nah. Sorry.

Again, Jesus never quoted from Revelations. He quoted from the OT and what was given to the Prophets by God, our Heavenly Father.

[life_of_praise]

Quote (david @ Oct. 03 2006,00:37)

Quote Why is he bowing to angels? Because an angel is very powerful creature, and one that if you suddenly saw it in it's glory, may cause you to fall to the ground.  But he was corrected. Quote Rev 22:8  And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship [Gk proskyneo] before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. The word proskyneo can be translated in a number of ways.  It simply means to bow down, show obeisance, honor and respect and can mean to worship.  Your Bible translator believes in the trinity.  So, he wants to show Jesus being worthy of worship and hence, being God.  That is translational bias.  Please see the “worship” thread on Jesus.   A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John 1:1 This angel presented it in signs to John.  In this verse: Quote Rev 1:10  I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, We see that by inspiration John came to be in the Lord's day.  Remember, the angel was presenting it in signs.  So in 4:2 it seems that in an instant of time, John is spiritually transported by God’s spirit (active force) to the very throne of Jehovah.

He was with Jesus. Witnessed the things Jesus did.

Sorry, but the excuses are not cutting it.

There's no excuse for him to bow and start worshipping angels…twice.

Rev 22:9 Then he said unto me, See you do it not: for I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of them who keep the words of this book: worship God.

That's after he started to worship the angel. The angel said don't do that…..worship God.

That Scripture clears things up. He was bowing to worship the angel…and he did that twice. This is the man that was supposedly with Jesus.

The angel presented it in sign…and God did the same thing back in the OT and the prophecies were explained.

He was in the spirit…and then in the spirit again. Again, why is he going in and out of the spirit?

You're only comprehending parts of what I posted. Not all.

Again..what are the 7 spirits of God and is only mentioned in Revelations?

[life_of_praise]

“phrasology”

Sounds good to me! Lol.

[life_of_praise]

Quote (david @ Oct. 03 2006,00:23)

DANIEL 7:13 ““I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One.” “someone like a son of man.”  It's not just revelation that uses that phrasology. (is that a word?)

David,

The prophets in the OT never seen Jesus. So of course, they are going to say like unto the Son of man.

This John…who's suppose to be the author of the Gospel of John should not be saying “like unto….”.

He was with Jesus. He should know who He is. He should know better than to bow to angels too.

[life_of_praise]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 03 2006,00:03)

Quote (life_of_praise @ Oct. 02 2006,23:54) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 02 2006,23:45) Quote (life_of_praise @ Oct. 02 2006,23:24) Daniel, Ezekiel and Zechariah. Revelation was created from those books. Books that were from these Prophets…and the prophecies given to them by God. Early Christians rejected Revelations…I see why…and they were wise to do so. hmm. Are there any other books we should dispose of while we at it? Revelations will do. Prophets in the OT and Jesus already covered the end of times. Hi lop, Is this wise? Is there no truth in the book you see at all? Is it lies? It purports to be from God Himself. Rev 1 ” 1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: “

Hello Nick!

Nick study Revelations and at the same time study the 3 books I have mentioned from the OT.

Also, what Jesus said in Matthew 24.

I can honestly say I studied and studied and John the Divine created a book taken from what was already prophesized in the OT and by Jesus. But he did a bad job and one heck of a confusing job at it.

John the Divine is in the Spirit…and later on..back in the Spirit.

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit; and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

In Rev 1, he was supposedly already in the spirit….why did he get out of the spirit and then had to get back into the spirit???

Why is he bowing to angels?

Rev 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.

You gotta ask yourself…who is the John and who gave him this revelation?

Compared to all the other books in the Bible…this book is waaaaaaaaaaay out there. The other books make sense.

[life_of_praise]

Quote (david @ Oct. 02 2006,23:33)

Lop, you have a few times stated this: Quote Did Jesus ever say that He would kill anyones children? Jesus never talked like that…ever. Revelations never mentions the Holy Spirit…not one time. It says Spirit…but never the Holy Spirit. The end times was already prophesized. Jesus quoted from Daniel…not Revelations. Daniel 12 It's not speaking of killing children, but of killing jezebel's children, people who followed Jezebells ways. I believe there are about 20 Bible books that don't specifically use the expression: “holy spirit.”  This does not in itself mean that all those books are not inspired of God. Yes, the end times were already prophesied.  Jesus quoted from Daniel.  The Greek scriptures in general quote from the Hebrew scriptures.  Revelation has references from the Hebrew Scriptures.

Of course it has references…the writer poorly copied Daniel, Ezekiel and Zechariah.

The point I'm making is that Jesus never talked like that…except in Revelations..and doesn't know who the Son of man is.

[life_of_praise]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 02 2006,23:45)

Quote (life_of_praise @ Oct. 02 2006,23:24) Daniel, Ezekiel and Zechariah. Revelation was created from those books. Books that were from these Prophets…and the prophecies given to them by God. Early Christians rejected Revelations…I see why…and they were wise to do so. hmm. Are there any other books we should dispose of while we at it?

Revelations will do.

Prophets in the OT and Jesus already covered the end of times.

[life_of_praise]

Quote (david @ Oct. 02 2006,23:19)

Hi Lop. First, I'd like to say that I'm sorry that your Nickname will be Lop.  It's just easier to write.  Lop.   Also, you write: Quote Also, In Daniel, God said the Books were sealed.  So why are the books open. God is not a liar. DANIEL 12:9-10 “And he went on to say: “Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of [the] end. Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will certainly act wickedly, and no wicked ones at all will understand; but the ones having insight will understand.” So, these words of Daniels would not be understood until the time of the end, or the “last days” as Paul called it, or the “conclusion of the system of things [world]” as Jesus called it. Quote All that is in Revelations has already been prophesized by Daniel, Ezekiel, Zechariah.   There is definitely some overlap. Quote Also, Jesus never said He would kill anyone children. Rev 2:23  And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he who searches the minds and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. Jesus never talked like that. Never. Referring to “that woman Jezebel,” Jesus says: “And her children I will kill with deadly plague, so that all the congregations will know that I am he who searches the kidneys and hearts, and I will give to you individually according to your deeds.” (Revelation 2:23 This symbolic book of Revelation is not speaking of literal children here.  It's speaking of “Jezebel's” children, those who follow her ways. Jesus has allowed Jezebel and her children time to repent, but they persist in their immoral ways and hence must receive judgment. There is a powerful message here for Christians today. Those who imitate Jezebel, whether men or women, and thus become her children by violating Bible principles on headship and morality or by being headstrong so as to ignore theocratic order, are spiritually in a dangerously sick condition. Quote Now, many say that this John is the same as the John who wrote the Gospel. Well…if that was the case, then John would know who Jesus is. Rev 1:13  And in the midst of the seven lampstands one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girded about the breast with a golden belt. Does he not know who Jesus is? He should. Now, in the Old Testament it is understandable for the prophets to say “like unto the Son of man”. They never seen Christ. But John did. Lop, he's referred to as the “son of man” quite a bit in the Greek scriptures (NT) as well, probably 80 or 90 times.  In the book of John, John calls him the Son of man 13 times.  It's one of Jesus descriptive titles.   Quote Another thing, in Revelations who is the Lamb? It never says Lamb of God…but just Lamb. And look how this lamb is described… Rev 5:6  And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. Jesus does not have seven eyes and/or seven horns. And what are the 7 spirits of God? Is it somehow belittling or undignified to represent the glorified Jesus as “a lamb as though it had been slaughtered”? Not at all! The fact that Jesus stayed faithful to the death was a major defeat for Satan and a great triumph for Jehovah God. Representing Jesus in this way vividly portrays his conquest of Satan’s world and is a reminder of the deep love that Jehovah and Jesus have for mankind. (John 3:16; 15:13; compare Colossians 2:15.) Jesus is thus pointed to as the promised Seed, outstandingly qualified to open the scroll.—Genesis 3:15. 12 What else adds to our appreciation of this “lamb”? He has seven horns. Horns in the Bible are often a symbol of power or authority, and seven would indicate completeness. (Compare 1 Samuel 2:1, 10; Psalm 112:9; 148:14.) Hence, the Lamb’s seven horns represent the fullness of power that Jehovah has entrusted to Jesus. He is “far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name named, not only in this system of things, but also in that to come.” (Ephesians 1:20-23; 1 Peter 3:22) Jesus has particularly exercised power, governmental power, since 1914 when Jehovah enthroned him as heavenly King.—Psalm 2:6. 13 Moreover, Jesus is filled to completeness with holy spirit, as pictured by the Lamb’s seven eyes, which “mean the seven spirits of God.” Jesus is a channel through whom the fullness of Jehovah’s active force flows to His earthly servants. (Titus 3:6) Evidently, it is by this same spirit that he sees from heaven what is happening here on earth. Like his Father, Jesus has perfect discernment. Nothing escapes his notice. (Compare Psalm 11:4; Zechariah 4:10.) Quote Another thing, why is it that Christians bypass or say the book of revelations doesn't make sense…confusing. God is not the author of confusion. Right, and there is a scripture that says he is not a God of confusion. REVELATION 1:1 “A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John,” Notice that Revelation was presented in signs “to show his slaves” (and not the world in general) what would take place. The truth is, many people let themselves be blinded by Satan, the god of this system of things (2 cor 4:4)  So, there's mass confusion, as satan wants. david

Lop is cool. 🙂

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and revealed it by his angel unto his servant John:

Jesus told us what to expect in the end in Matthew. He already covered and didn't use symbols.

John the Divine refers to himself in third person.

When prophecies were given…they were always explained.

What Revelations does is prophesize what has already been prophesized…but poorly and in a confusing, confusing manner.

David…I know Jesus is referred to as the Son of Man…

This person…John the Divine say “like unto
the Son of man”

It's either the Son of man or it's not. Which is it?

And remember, if this is the actual John…he would know

Nowhere in the Bible…except Revelations…is the 7 spirits of God ever mentioned.

What are the 7 Spirits?

[life_of_praise]

Daniel, Ezekiel and Zechariah.

Revelation was created from those books.

Books that were from these Prophets…and the prophecies given to them by God.

Early Christians rejected Revelations…I see why…and they were wise to do so.

[life_of_praise]

Did Jesus ever say that He would kill anyones children?

Jesus never talked like that…ever.

Revelations never mentions the Holy Spirit…not one time.

It says Spirit…but never the Holy Spirit.

The end times was already prophesized. Jesus quoted from Daniel…not Revelations.

Daniel 12

[life_of_praise]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 02 2006,21:45)

Hi lop, You say “Rev 5:6  And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.” This shows that the Spirit of Christ derives totally from and through Christ now unto his body on earth expressed to the seven churches and their angels.

Nick, you're about as sweet as can be…don't worry, I am a female..lololol…but no.

This was about a book and who is worthy to open the book.

And this Lamb was able too. Whatever this Lamb is with the many eyes and horns.

Again..you have this Lamb…and you have another like unto the Son of man.

[life_of_praise]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 02 2006,21:41)

Hi lop, You say “Now, many say that this John is the same as the John who wrote the Gospel. Well…if that was the case, then John would know who Jesus is. Rev 1:13  And in the midst of the seven lampstands one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girded about the breast with a golden belt. “ This is Jesus, the man from heaven in his new heavenly body, not the battered and torn weak one of flesh that John knew him in.

Nick…that description was poorly taken from Daniel.

Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and its wheels as burning fire.

Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spoke: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Again…already prophesized. God gave it to Daniel.

[life_of_praise]

I understand what you're saying….but the end of times was already prophesized. That prophecy was given to Daniel.

Jesus told us in Matthew, Luke and Mark about the end of times…and quoted from Daniel.

In Matthew, Jesus said…

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Now, In Revelations, we have someone who is like unto the Son of man.

Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven lampstands one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girded about the breast with a golden belt.

Like unto?? So John has no idea who this person is??

Then you have..

Rev 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightning and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Then you have a Lamb…not the Lamb of God..but a Lamb.
Who has 7 eyes and 7 horns…which are suppose to be the 7 spirits of God

Who is this Lamb with the horns and eyes? Is it being said that Jesus looks like this?

Then, you have this John the Divine who falls on his knees to worship angels.

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See you do it not: I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Rev 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.

Rev 22:9 Then he said unto me, See you do it not: for I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of them who keep the words of this book: worship God.

Two times this John person fell to his knees and started worshipping the angels….

He also fell to knees with the person like unto the Son of man…not the Son of man..but one like unto…Rev 1:17

we have one like unto the Son of man…and he looks like this…

Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden lampstands;

Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven lampstands one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girded about the breast with a golden belt.

Rev 1:14 His head and his hair were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

Rev 1:15 And his feet like unto fine bronze, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

And you have this Lamb…with the 7 eyes and 7 horns…

??

Tis quite confusing…better yet…who are these people or things?

Remember…what Jesus said…

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

[life_of_praise]

Daniel…I believe it starts at 7 on thru 12 the last chapter is the prophecy to the end of times.

In Matthew 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13. Jesus talks about the end of times and quotes from Daniel.

Revelations prophesizes what has already been prophesized by someone calle John the Divine…take from Daniel, Ezekiel and Zechariah.

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