@lamontre
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Quote (Not3in1 @ June 14 2007,12:49) And there is no escaping that you hold your interpretations and I have mine. Who is right? You? Of course.
Thank you….I agree.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 14 2007,13:05) lamontre >.. I would like to address this issue of miracles with you ,first where did Jesus ever say he did the miracles himself you won't find it it the scriptures, but he said he could do nothing of himself but it was the Father who was in him who does the work not him and a good example of this point was when Lazarus was going to be raised. Jesus told Mary and Martha that if they only belived that they would see the glory of God, now if He would have left it at that, when Lazarus come out they would indeed thought Jesus was God, but immedeatly after Jesus said it he seams to apoligise to God by saying to God that the only reason he said it was so that they would believe that He (GOD) sent him ( Jesus), the miracles God did for Jesus was to show that Jesus was indeed the Messiah. God is the only true mericale worker and no one else. A we by being yoked with the Father can be granted miracles in our lives also. Hope this may help. God bless all who love truth and seek it. 
Again, you are overemphasizing the fact that Jesus was indeed human. Everything he did, he did as a man being obedient to God. Therefore, of course, he was being fully reliant upon God.Just because he was living as a man, does not preclude His nature as God.
Quote (Not3in1 @ June 14 2007,09:51) Quote (lamontre @ June 14 2007,07:56) Thank you for your encouraging words WJ. Joh 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Joh 5:23 That all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father which hath sent him.Note the past and present tense of these words…..
Without the triunity of God, and the deity of Jesus Christ, these words are senseless.
In vs 23, the bolded term “even as” is;
G2531
kath-oce'
From G2596 and G5613; just (or inasmuch) as, that: – according to, (according, even) as, how, when.It has the implication of “when”. So that we could read it to say, that we should honor the Father and the Son, not only in the same manner, but at the same time. How can we heed Jesus words here, without a trinitarian view?
How the implications of such verses can escape some, is beyond me.
1 Cor.15: 24-28“Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
For he must reign UNTIL he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything ” has been put under him, it is clear that this dos not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
WHEN he has done this, THEN the Son himself WILL BE MADE SUBJECT to him who put everything under him, so that GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL.”
***********************
Jesus is to be honored the same as the Father during this time of reign. Then he will also be made subject to the Father SO THAT the Father may be ALL IN ALL.
That is a non-Trinitarian view for you.
Sorry, but once again, you need to remember who Jesus was talking to, and when. The tense of His words would have been understood by the hearers as being spoken directly to them, and about them, and regarding that time.He was to be honored then, at that time, as God; just as now.
There is no escaping the implications, there is only interpreting them away because you don't like what they tell you.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ June 12 2007,10:51)
I can see that this discussion is quickly becoming a lesson in bad communication. Let's cut through all the smoke screens by simply answering the questions that were asked of us – nothing more nothing less. I will start by answering the questions in your latest post.Well Ok, but mischaracterizing my posts is not going to help your case. You need scripture references interpretted in biblical context.
Quote I asked you if you agreed with the Trinitarian whose exegesis of Phillipians 2:6-9 I quoted. You said, “yes”. This is what he wrote, in part: Instead, it is speaking of His humility that moved him, according to the will of the Father, to leave His majestic state in heaven and enter into the humble position of human nature.
If you say that “form of God” refers to his nature, then what did he empty himself of? His nature? Or, his stature? Please add this to the list of questions that you answer.
Your not listening, or perhaps not reading carefully enough. Or prehaps your just pretending not to see what I have said.
Jesus was simply being obedient. He was fully God, and had not lost anything. Read the Philippians passage carefully, and understand what Paul is saying that WE should do, and then you will understand what Jesus did, as God in the flesh.
Quote 2. If you have a son, he will be human in nature, yes? And if God has a son He is in nature?Yes, if I have a son he will be human in nature. As for God, let's look at a few examples of His sons:
Exdous 4:22
“Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the LORD: Israel is My son, My firstborn.'”Can you not see the prophestic significance of this statement??
Jesus was a direct descendant, through Mary. It is so amazingly awsome as to be impossible for any man to arrange.
Quote 1 Chronicles 28:6
“Now He said to me, ‘It is your son Solomon who shall build My house and My courts; for I have chosen him to be My son, and I will be his Father.'”This refers to Jesus, not Solomon. You are seeing scripture exactly the way the blind Pharisees did. Your missing the prophetic nature of these verses. Which is quite understandable to be honest.
Quote Job 38:6-7
“To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?”Well now this is simply ignorance of scripture. Son(s) of God are what believers are. The only begotten Son of God is a different animal altogether.
Quote Romans 8:14
“For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.”It appears God's sons come in many forms.
Son(s) yes…..only begotten Son of God?? Well, I made that point already. It is only by being IN CHRIST that men qualify as sons of God, and can be lead by the Spirit of God.
Quote 3. You are now avoiding the issue. When did the first and the last ever die? I didn't realize that I had to state the obvious. Jesus died sometime around 33 A.D, give or take a few years, but rose from the grave three days after his death. In other words, he was dead, and then he was alive.
Revelations 2:8
“8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write,
‘These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life:”LOL! Still refuse to address the real issue don't you?
Isa 41:4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.
Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
This is he who claims to have died in the verse from Rev 1.
Your doctrine has a real problem.
I know you have to see it.
Quote 4. What would perfect obedience look like for the only begotten Son of God?? Would it not be “perfect”? Yes, it would be perfect. Your point?
You know what my point is. If God the Father said to God the Son, “you are not to know that” then he would not. That does not limit his ability, it in fact expands it well beyond anything any normal man could accomplish. Ever tried to “unknow” something??
Quote 5. And so you now ask these questions of people, for what purpose?? This was a rhetorical question, I presume, but I will answer it anyway. I ask questions in the hopes that people will actually stop and think about the answer. Many times, they don't.
:shrug
Quote 6. This is a failure on your part to understand what actually happened to Jesus, after His death. Do you not believe in life after death?? I believe in the resurrection of the dead.
Revelation 20:5
“5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.”Now, here are my questions:
1. Do you agree with this Trinitarian, who represents the orthodox view of the Trinity? If not, what scriptural evidence do you use to support your position? (I ask this again, just in case you wish to change your mind after re-reading the quote carefully.)
I answered it the first time, and I believe all my statements have scriptural support. If not, let me know, I'll get back to it. It's all in the scriptures.
Quote 2.
Can God's power be limited by human nature? If not, then what does Jesus' lack of power have to do with his human condition?No, but perfect obedience from a perfect God can limit anything. This is like asking, “Can God make a rock so heavy he cannot lift it?”
Quote 3. How is it possible that Jesus lacked wisdom at any point in time, as Luke 2:52 clearly demonstrates? Obedience, simple, perefect obedience.
Quote 4. So, you would say, “yes”, God, in the person of Jesus, can die? 5. If you say that “form of God” refers to his nature, then what did he empty himself of? His nature? Or, his stature?
Niether. 🙂 Jesus acted in perfect obedience. Simple.
Ahhh, finally….I will skip the irrelevent introduction and get right to the meat of the discussion;
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ June 12 2007,05:32) First, I note that this response (Phil 2:5-8) does not specifically address the question that I asked. Of course it does. You just don't like what it says.
Quote There's no point in quoting the question if your answer is unaffected by it. If, however, your intent was to say this: “…Jesus gave up some of His divine attributes while He was a man here on earth. These attributes were omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence.“
No, as I do not subscribe to that, but thanks for the assumption.
It says Christ Jesus existed in the form of God, and humbled himself to become a man. That does not say that he “gave up” anything, but voluntarily allowed the Father to dictate to Him His life, knowledge, position, mission etc. This makes him our example, which explains Pauls refence in vs 5.
Quote Do you agree with this Trinitarian Yes, I do.
Quote By the way, my interpretation of the Phillipians passage is as follows: To me, these verses speak of Yeshua's stature not his nature.
The “form” of God refers to stature??
G3444
μορφή
morphē
mor-fay'
Perhaps from the base of G3313 (through the idea of adjustment of parts); shape; figuratively nature: – form.Quote As the Messiah, the Son of God, he was above all other men, but he humbled himself in service of men in order to do his Father's will, ultimately for the redemption of mankind. A logical question (if I may?)
If you have a son, he will be human in nature, yes?
And if God has a son He is
in nature?Each after his own kind, is I believe God's law.
Quote If you read the account of his wilderness temptation by Satan, you can see that Satan's primary objective was to get him to assert his the privileges of his stature in place of fulfilling his humble mission. I agree with that. Turning stones into bread is hardly a temptation for a “regular” man though.
Quote lamontre wrote:
Phi 2:5 For think this within you, which mind was also in Christ Jesus,
Phi 2:6 who subsisting in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God,
Phi 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a slave, having become in the likeness of men
Phi 2:8 and being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself,<—something I am sure you know little about) having become obedient until death, even the death of a cross.Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest not being able to sympathize with our weaknesses but One having been tried in all respects according to our likeness, apart from sin.
Rom 8:3 For the Law being powerless, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh,
Again, this does not answer the fundamental question. Put another way:
Can God's power be limited by human nature? If not, then what does Jesus' lack of power have to do with his human condition?
Gods power was not limited. Jesus was obedient, not limited. Please read the scriptures I quoted very carefully.
Quote By the way, you seem to be emphasizing that Jesus is a “likeness” of human flesh. Do you mean to imply that he wasn't really completely human, (i.e weak and capable of sin), but only appeared to be? Unless you know of another man who was concieved through a virgin woman by God Himself, then you will have to concede that point. He represents the new creation. He did not carry the sin of Adam. His temptations had to come from without. You will find no reference that suggests he lusted after riches, or women, or that he struggled with homosexual (or any other sexual) lusts and temptations that we might endure. He was tempted in all points as we are, that is, “lust of the flesh, lust of the eye, and the pride of life” in his temptations before Satan alone. He needed nothing more to fulfill His role in being “touched with the feeling of our infirmaties”.
Quote lamontre wrote:
Luk 2:52 And Jesus progressed in wisdom and stature and favor before God and men.Phi 2:5 For think this within you, which mind was also in Christ Jesus,
Phi 2:6 who subsisting in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God,
Phi 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a slave, having become in the likeness of men
Phi 2:8 and being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself,<—something I am sure you know little about) having become obedient until death, even the death of a cross.Rev 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
Rev 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: (see Isa 41:4)
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.Lets hear your interpretation? When did the first and the last ever die in your opinion???
I think thats strike 3….but lets allow you a few more trys.
Quote The passage that I reference and the passage that you quote are two different time periods. That's a good dance, but it changes nothing. You are now avoiding the issue. When did the first and the last ever die?
Quote My actual question was, how is it possible that Jesus lacked wisdom at any point in time, as Luke 2:52 clearly demonstrates? How your Revelation passage shows that Jesus did not lack wisdom while on earth is not at all clear to me. As I say, you need to read the scripture references VERY carefully. Jesus was simply being obedient. What would perfect obedience look like for the only begotten Son of God?? Would it not be “perfect”?
Mat 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
Mat 26:54 But how then shall the Scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?Surely there are no “regular” men who would say that in such a situation.
Quote By the way, you asked when “the first and last [died]”. Do you mean to imply that Jesus did not die for our sins, or that Jesus is not the first and the last. I think you know exactly what I mean, because that question makes no sense according to what I wrote.
Quote lamontre wrote: Phi 2:5 For think this within you, which mind was also in Christ Jesus,
Phi 2:6 who subsisting in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God,
Phi 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a slave, having become in the likeness of men
Phi 2:8 and being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself,<—something I am sure you know little about) having become obedient until death, even the death of a cross.Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Joh 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.I bet you would have joined them in gathering stones to throw wouldn't you??
Quote Again, I am going to have to plead total ignorance as to how your response even relates to the question. That's because you refuse to see the relevence of the Phillipians passage I have quoted over and over again.
But on this particular point, I would like to add that the believers perfection also comes in the ressurrection, and so, I am not sure why you find that reference so hard to understand. Jesus too, was ressurrected.
Quote WorshippingJesus, (a Trinitarian poster on this site), had a very well reasoned response to this question, and I conceded his point many pages ago. Find it and read it. And so you now ask these questions of people, for what purpose??
Quote lamontre wrote: You need to answer that one. The scriptures either make Jesus a liar, and a possible lunatics, or he is the first and the last who died, and is alive forever more. I know, you don't like that, and that says allot about who you have placed your faith in. You have placed your faith in a false god….a false Jesus. You believe another gospel, which was never given to the saints
So, you would say, “yes”, God, in the person of Jesus, can die?
This is a failure on your part to understand what actually happened to Jesus, after His death. Do you not believe in life after death??
Quote My God is immortal. He exists from eternity to eternity, and did not die anywhere in between. If we do not share this same God, then I mourn for you. Mourne, if you feel it necessary. Your god is not the God revealed in the scriptures.
Take care.
