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[k4c]

Quote (epistemaniac @ July 05 2005,17:29)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 05 2005,10:11) Hi E, The God that was with God is not that God he was with. Now please also can you be consistent. You say the Word was fully God so you say there are two deities. So are there two deities in one God now or two Gods? I thought you say they are two persons in one God not two individual deities in one God? So is the Son part of a trinity God or a separate deity? Now you say both are Gods to be worshipped as equals? Trinity theory says in fact there are three equal coeternal persons in one God. So is the Holy Spirit also an individual deity to be worshipped? Why did the Spirit then not get a mention in the verse from John? Is the deity of the Spirit a lesser one in your view?   The Spirit does not seem to be mentioned in this way as an individual deity in the Word. Neither are there any verses that even hint that the Spirit is to be worshipped are there? Hello. Where is the equality in all this or do we have to take it all on faith? Confusion reigns!! Sorry but adding that we cannot understand God and that some things are mysterious will not wash. This is pure eyewash. “God is not a God of confusion but of peace” lol… aww now Nick.. you know sometimes I have to marvel at your continual misrepresentation of trinitarianism… I mean, disagree… fine… great… but could you at least have the decency to accurately relate what trinitarians believe? you know full well that our belief is that there are not 2 gods, but rather one God in 3 persons…. and its not that difficult to understand really… that is, that this is the belief… I am not referring to the “how” this can be so, because when we attempt to break beliefs down in ways that move towards bare basic level metaphysical relationships and the great problems of unity and diversity in the universe(s) we have to admit ignorance on enourmous scales as to the “how” most things can be…. we just do know that much really, thats what it comes down to….. and so when the Bible says things of the Son that can only be also true of God the Father, I have to be faithful to the Bible Nick, and not raise my human intellect above the revelation given us by God, and say in all my human pride “I cannot understand it, therefore it cannot be true”… no… I bow both my mind and spirit before God and accept on faith that things are the way He says they are, not the way I say….. so, to reply specifically to “The God that was with God is not that God he was with.” I have to say that once again, you are equivocating… this time on the word “God”… so its one God… ok? got that? don't read further until you understand this Nick… one God… in 3 persons… so there is no such belief as God being with another God…  that is consistent, there is no inconsistency anywhere…. you say ” You say the Word was fully God so you say there are two deities.” No I don't… YOU keep saying that… I say there is one deity you ask “So are there two deities in one God now or two Gods? “ one God Nick… just one…. and this God is triune, the Bible reveals God as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit… elementary really…. you say “I thought you say they are two persons in one God not two individual deities in one God?” nope, never said this, don't put words in my mouth, don't create straw man arguments… you know Nick… the same things that have told you numerous times… but hey, if you can't refute the trinitarian position biblically, perhaps this is your last resort…. misrepresenting etc… and I know resorts can be very nice places to be Nick, but at some point you are going to have to go home… get back to reality and face the actual beliefs that trinitarians have.. and again.. go ahead disagree… in a sense I could care less about that… you are going to believe what ever it is you are convinced of… but Nick, I am not going to stoop to misrepresenting you just because I disagree with you…. I just wish you would stop creating these flimsy caricatures… if you think about it… its really a sin to do that Nick… its lying… lastly you ask “So is the Son part of a trinity God or a separate deity?” the great collection of ministers of God's word who came together to produce Westminster said it like this… Q7:  What is God? A7:  God is a Spirit,[1] in and of himself infinite in being,[2] glory,[3]  blessedness,[4] and perfection;[5] all-sufficient,[6] eternal,[7] unchangeable,[8]  incomprehensible,[9] everywhere present,[10] almighty,[11] knowing all things,[12] most wise,[13] most holy,[14] most just,[15] most merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth.[16] 1.  John 4:24 2.  Exod. 3:14; Job 11:7-9 3.  Acts 7:2 4.  I Tim. 6:15 5.  Matt. 5:48 6.  Gen. 17:1 7.  Psa. 90:2 8.  Mal. 3:6; James 1:17 9.  I Kings 8:27 10. Psa. 139:1-13 11. Rev. 4:8 12. Heb. 4:13; Psa 147:5 13. Rom. 16:27 14. Isa. 6:3; Rev. 15:4 15. Deut. 32:4 16. Exod. 34:6 Q8:  Are there more Gods than one? A8:  There is but one only, the living and true God.[1] 1.  Deut. 6:4; I Cor. 8:4, 6; Jer. 10:10 Q9:  How many persons are there in the Godhead? A9:  There be three persons in the Godhead, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one true, eternal God, the same in substance, equal in power and glory; although distinguished by their personal properties.[1] 1.  I John 5:7; Matt. 3:16-17; 28:19; II Cor. 13:14; John 10:30 Q10:  What are the personal properties of the three persons in the Godhead? A10:  It is proper to the Father to beget the Son,[1] and to the Son to be begotten of the Father,[2] and to the Holy Ghost to proceed from the Father and the Son from all eternity.[3] 1.  Heb. 1:5-6, 8 2.  John 1:14, 18 3.  John 15:26; Gal. 4:6 Q11:  How doth it appear that the Son and the Holy Ghost are God equal with the Father? A11:  The scriptures manifest that the Son and the Holy Ghost are God equal with the Father, ascribing unto them such names,[1] attributes,[2] works,[3] and worship,[4] as are proper to God only. 1.  Isa. 6:3, 5, 8; John 12:41; Acts 5:3-4; 28:25; I John 5:20 2.  John 1:1; 2:24-25; Isa. 9:6; I Cor. 2:10-11 3.  Col. 1:16; Gen. 1:2 4.  Matt. 28:19; II Cor. 13:14

How many Spirits are in the godhead?

[k4c]

There is coming a time when Jesus returns with all His angelic host.

Matthew 25:31-32 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Who is the Captain of the heavenly host?

It's Michael the archangel the Angel of the LORD and Captain of the heavenly host.

Joshua 5:13-15 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the Lord am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? And the captain of the Lord's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

Revelation 12:7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought.

Jesus, with His voice, the voice of the archangel will shout and the dead shall rise. This will bring about a judgment like never before.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

All will give an account on that day.

Matthew 25:41-43 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

This will be a day when the dead rise out of the dust. Those who are written in the book of life will shine like the stars of heaven but the others, it will be a terrible day for them.

Who do you think brings this all about? Jesus does.

There is a prophecy in the book of Daniel that fortells this day and who brings it all about.

Daniel 12:1-4 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
“But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.''

Did you notice how God tells Daniel to shut up the book until the end, in other words, Michael and Jesus will be a mystery until the book is opened. Well, Jesus has opened the book to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.

Revelation 5:1-5 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Isaiah 63:9 In all their affliction He was afflicted, and the Angel of His Presence saved them; in His love and in His pity He redeemed them; and He bore them and carried them all the days of old.

Exodus 23:20-22 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for My name is in him. But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.

There is so much more but I think it's time for me to kick the dust of my heels.

May the Lord bless you as you seek to know the truth,
John

[k4c]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 13 2005,20:58)

Quote (k4c @ Dec. 13 2005,20:43) Quote (Sultan @ Dec. 13 2005,20:14) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 13 2005,15:01) Hi k4c, So strange that Michael appears by name so infrequently in the bible but some see him everywhere. Good point. Mark 4:11-12 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them. Hi k4c, Are you suggesting that the 'truth' of Jesus being Michael is hidden in parable form? Which parable?

I don't believe you are being true in your questions to me so I'm going to anwser just this one. When you truly come to want to know the truth about Michael and Jesus you will have to ask God and seek for yourself in His word to find the answer.

Matthew 21:33-44 “Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. “Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. “And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. “Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them. “Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, `They will respect my son.' “But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, `This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.' “And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?'' They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.'' Jesus said to them, “Did you never read in the Scriptures: `The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone. This was the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes'? “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. “And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.''

May the Lord bless your studies,
John

[k4c]

Quote (Sultan @ Dec. 13 2005,20:14)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 13 2005,15:01) Hi k4c, So strange that Michael appears by name so infrequently in the bible but some see him everywhere. Good point.

Mark 4:11-12 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

[k4c]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 13 2005,19:21)

Quote (k4c @ Dec. 13 2005,14:41) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 13 2005,11:13) Hi k4c, So the Word or Logos, the thoughts and words and will of God, were WITH God. You say then that Jesus had his own thoughts and words and will as well as the Father still having His own thoughts and words and will. Does that not sound a little strange to you? Does God still have His own thoughts and words and will that scripture said were with Him and became flesh as the Word? This is getting very confusing, and far from revelation. So Michael was like to us in all ways except sin…and of course that we were never angels. And of course you say it was the thoughts and words and will of God that came in the flesh, or did you not say it was an angel? Are all angels the thoughts and words and will of God or only Michael?   Can you show us where this is all written? These are very basic truths of the Bible. Does not the Spirit bare witness with our spirit that we are God's children. When a person receives the Spirit there is now two spirits within the person. This is when the real battle begins for the believer. The Spirit of God wars against our spirit or sinful nature. Angels as well as man have a free will to worship and express the image of our Creator in how we live. But as you read the Bible you will find not all angels as well as man are obedient to the purpose for which we were created. God is Spirit and unseen. God manifests Himself by way of creation and by sharing Himself with His created beings. This is what is meant by being anointed. Hi k4c, Great. These are basic bible truths, you say, and so soon you will show us them in the bible. God is spirit.The Word IS the thoughts and words and will of God and is separate from God. However God still HAS thoughts and words and will and so DOES the thoughts and words and will OF the thoughts and words and will of God. Is this your gospel? You contrast men with angels. Scripture says Jesus was a man. But you say he was also an angel? God asked some rhetorical questions which require no answer in Hebrews-for example. Heb 1.13 ” But to which of the ANGELS has He ever said 'Sit at My right hand, until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet' Are they not ALL ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?” But I can see your hand going up in the audience to say “I know. Michael” Look k4c I know you are sincere and trying honestly to find the truth and I do not wish to insult your intellect. I don't know how to reach out to you but I hope by reflecting what you are saying back to you you can get a better balanced perspective so we can work together to find the truth.

I'm prabably wasting my time sharing these things.

God sent His Son from heaven to take on sinful flesh. I think you believe this.

Who was His Son?

According to the Scriptures, it's Michael.

Hebrews 1:13 is not a rhetorical question.

God has never said to an angel, sit at my right hand untill I make your enemises your footstool, but He also didn't say this to just any man.

God was making a new man in Jesus from Michael. When Jesus was begotten (raised from the dead) He was not an angel but rather He was a flesh and blood man. It was at Jesus' resurrection when He was seated at the right hand of the Father. It was at this time when the Father said this to His Son.

Hebrews10:12-13 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, then to wait until his enemies should be made a stool for his feet.

[k4c]

Quote (Sultan @ Dec. 13 2005,16:42)

Quote (k4c @ Dec. 13 2005,04:53) Quote (Sultan @ Dec. 13 2005,02:34) Quote (k4c @ Dec. 12 2005,19:31) Quote (Sultan @ Dec. 12 2005,19:16) Quote (k4c @ Dec. 12 2005,14:04) Quote (Sultan @ Dec. 12 2005,14:51) K4C, I'm still waiting for my scripture that says Jesus is Michael. I hope you're not waiting for a new bible translation to come out with the verse in it (joke). Do you believe Jesus preexisted? If so, how? I'm still waiting for my scripture. If what you believe is biblical why are you trying to ask me questions? Please give me the scripture and the debate is over or maybe there is no scripture, and so we have to speculate until we can rationalize that Jesus was Michael. John 1:1 and 1:14 tell us how Jesus existed before coming in the flesh. See how easy that was. No speculation, I'm not answering your question with a question, I'm just giving you the scripture. I have given several dozen of Scriptures throughout this forum. I'll have to go step by step so it will be easier to grasp. Do you believe Jesus preexisted? I answered this already with yes, based on John 1:1 and 1:14. They tell us how Jesus existed before coming in the flesh. See how easy that was. No speculation, I'm not answering your question with a question, I'm just giving you the scripture.  Also Phil.2:5-8. You explaining stuff to me tells me that you started with a pre-conceived idea, and then tried to prove it was right, but you cannot simply give me the scriptures, because they will not agree with you without manipulation. You have been taught that the (word) John 1:1 is referring to Jesus. The word (word) in John 1:1 is the word (logos). This word (logos) has to do with (will, thought, words) and is referring to YAHWEH's (thoughts, will, words). I totally agree that the word became flesh in that Jesus was obedient to the (word) in expressing or living out the will or word of God. When we see Jesus we see the Father because Jesus was obedient in expressing the Father name or character through obeying the Father's word. We can see the same thing in us. When we obey the words of Jesus people will see Jesus when they see us. One very important factor people leave out in teaching or believing Jesus is totally the word in flesh making Him co-eternal and co-equal with YAHWEH and that is, Jesus had His own (will, thoughts and words) along with His Father's. What made Jesus the perfect sacrifice is that He continued in odedience to His Father's will even unto death. Hebrews 5:8-9 Though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,. Philippians 2:8-9 And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross.  Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name. Michael, the archangel the sinless Son of God came down from heaven and took on sinful flesh. He was truly tempted to live His own life as a man the way He wanted. He was tempted in all areas as we are to resist the will of God and do His own thing but rather He humbled Himself in obedience even unto death vs being proud and rebellious like us. It's not what I have been taught, it is what the Bible says. I did not say “that the Word was refering to Jesus”. The Word is refering to the Word, and the Word was the form of God in which Jesus existed before coming in the flesh. In John 1:3 the Bible says that all things were created by the Word, Col. 1:13-18 reads,” He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.”. Now are you going to tell me that the Word,Jesus, and Michael created all things. That is erroneous. Your belief system is also erroneous since you have not produced my scripture that I have asked for. You have proven to me that your conclusion is based on “vain speculation”, and it is found wanting. Every question you have asked me I have given you what the Bible says. Every question I have asked you, you have either answered it with another question or ignored it.

Understanding Michael and Jesus is not something that will come with just one answered question. It takes studying and allowing the Father to reveal that fact that (Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God).

One of the confusions regarding Jesus is that people are taught that Jesus created the heaven and earth we now live in. This is not a biblically sound statement. YAHWEH created the heaven and earth we now live in but through Jesus YAHWEH is creating a new and heaven and earth wherein dwells righteousness. This new heaven and earth will be called the kingdom of God. He also created a new man through His Son.

If you notice in Colossians how the first thing that is mentioned is this kingdom. This kingdom is what God created through Jesus. It's not saying Jesus created THE heaven and THE earth. It says through Jesus these things were created IN heaven and ON earth. It's a governmental kingdom dealing with principalities and powers. Jesus is before all things not in the sense of time but rather superiority as being head of the church. Jesus is the firstborn from the dead pertaining to this coming kingdom.

There is much to understand regarding Michael and Jesus so to just give you one verse that covers everything would be hard to do. I'm sure it took years for you build the faith you have now so how do you expect me to change what you believe in one verse.

The bottom line is that God sent His Son from heaven to take on sinful flesh. The Son is not the Father and the Father is not the Son. So who is this Son that YAHWEH sent from heaven?

Do you know His name?

Prov
erbs 30:4 Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son's name, If you know?

[k4c]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 13 2005,11:13)

Hi k4c, So the Word or Logos, the thoughts and words and will of God, were WITH God. You say then that Jesus had his own thoughts and words and will as well as the Father still having His own thoughts and words and will. Does that not sound a little strange to you? Does God still have His own thoughts and words and will that scripture said were with Him and became flesh as the Word? This is getting very confusing, and far from revelation. So Michael was like to us in all ways except sin…and of course that we were never angels. And of course you say it was the thoughts and words and will of God that came in the flesh, or did you not say it was an angel? Are all angels the thoughts and words and will of God or only Michael?   Can you show us where this is all written?

These are very basic truths of the Bible.

Does not the Spirit bare witness with our spirit that we are God's children.

When a person receives the Spirit there is now two spirits within the person. This is when the real battle begins for the believer.

The Spirit of God wars against our spirit or sinful nature.

Angels as well as man have a free will to worship and express the image of our Creator in how we live. But as you read the Bible you will find not all angels as well as man are obedient to the purpose for which we were created.

God is Spirit and unseen. God manifests Himself by way of creation and by sharing Himself with His created beings. This is what is meant by being anointed.

[k4c]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 13 2005,02:06)

Quote (k4c @ Dec. 13 2005,00:57) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 13 2005,00:40) Quote (k4c @ Dec. 13 2005,00:26) Quote (Bastian @ Dec. 12 2005,20:55) Hi Nick and All, In Daniel Michael is one of the chief princes. That means that there are others like him, he is not unique. He is the prince over Israel that is what sets him apart. He contended with the devil over the body of Moses. I find it odd when Michael became a flesh being made a little lower then the angels he commanded demons, he had power over them, but not when he was their equal as a spirit being, interesting. Be well, B. That word (one) can also be (first). If interpreted in light of Scripture the word would be (first) as in the beginning of God's creation. Revelation 3:14  “And to the angel of the church in La-odicea write: 'The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.   Does not the Bible say that Jesus was made a little lower than angels and yet He still commands demons. How can this be so? I'll tell you how, because anointed Him to do so. Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power; how he went about doing good and healing all that were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.   Even the Apostles themselves casted out demons, healed the sick and raised the dead just as Jesus did. The miracles the Apostles did were so powerful that it caused the people of their day to say, 'The gods have come down to us in human form'. Does this sound familiar? Acts 14:10-11 So, Paul shouted, “Stand up on your feet!'' The man jumped up and began walking around.  And when the crowds saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in Lycaonian, “The gods have come down to us in the likeness of men!” No not quite k4c, Heb 2.7 ” You have MADE him for a little while lower than the angels” does not mean when he was begotten he was lower than the angels. It must be taken alongside Phil 2.5-6 where it says “he emptied himself taking the form of a bondservant, and being MADE in the likeness of men” That making was his partaking of flesh and becoming man. He clearly had life in himself before that time or there would be no mention of any change. Jesus has life in Himself now because His Father gave this power to Him. John 5:26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. Regarding Philippians, Jesus is the image of God, not eqaul to God but rather His image. As He states, to equal with God is not a thing that can be had. Jesus is the image of God. God's only begotten Son. Jesus knowing this He did not exalt Himself as God like the first Adam did but rather He submitted Himself to His Father's will in that He became a servant. Hebrews 5:8-9 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him. Hi k4c, So as a man in what way is Jesus an image of his Father? We are made in the image of God but he is the exact image. Is there anything in his appearance or personal power that resembles God? Not according to Isaiah, in fact the opposite. Is 53.2f ” For he grew up before Him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of parched ground; he has no stately form or majesty that we should look upon him, nor appearance that we should be attracted to him. He was despised and forsaken of men, a  man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; and like one from whom men hide their face. He was despised and we didi not esteem him” He had his own glory seen only by spiritual eyes and eyes of faith. That glorious vessel was filled too with the greatest manifestation and power of God. Jn 1.14 ” and the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw his glory, glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth” Michael was an angel so could not be made lower than himself. God often uses his servant angels to achieve His will.But He sent his beloved only begotten Son to us. By the way where does scripture say Michael is that only begotten son or God's chief representative or the Angel of His presence. Sooner or later if you wish to teach anything in a biblical forum you had best find some better scriptural evidence.

An image is NEVER the true thing but rather it's the image of the true thing. Jesus was the expressed image of His Father in that He was obedient in expressing His Father's name or character to us. When we see Jesus we see the Father because Jesus was obedient in expressing the Father's name. We see the same thing in us, when we obey the words of Jesus people will see Jesus when they see us. Remember, in the same way Jesus was sent, He sends us. Jesus was the ambassador of His Father in the same way we will be ambssadors for Jesus.

2 Corinthians 5:20 Therefore we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God.

John 20:21 Then Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.''

[k4c]

Quote (Sultan @ Dec. 13 2005,02:34)

Quote (k4c @ Dec. 12 2005,19:31) Quote (Sultan @ Dec. 12 2005,19:16) Quote (k4c @ Dec. 12 2005,14:04) Quote (Sultan @ Dec. 12 2005,14:51) K4C, I'm still waiting for my scripture that says Jesus is Michael. I hope you're not waiting for a new bible translation to come out with the verse in it (joke). Do you believe Jesus preexisted? If so, how? I'm still waiting for my scripture. If what you believe is biblical why are you trying to ask me questions? Please give me the scripture and the debate is over or maybe there is no scripture, and so we have to speculate until we can rationalize that Jesus was Michael. John 1:1 and 1:14 tell us how Jesus existed before coming in the flesh. See how easy that was. No speculation, I'm not answering your question with a question, I'm just giving you the scripture. I have given several dozen of Scriptures throughout this forum. I'll have to go step by step so it will be easier to grasp. Do you believe Jesus preexisted? I answered this already with yes, based on John 1:1 and 1:14. They tell us how Jesus existed before coming in the flesh. See how easy that was. No speculation, I'm not answering your question with a question, I'm just giving you the scripture.  Also Phil.2:5-8. You explaining stuff to me tells me that you started with a pre-conceived idea, and then tried to prove it was right, but you cannot simply give me the scriptures, because they will not agree with you without manipulation.

You have been taught that the (word) John 1:1 is referring to Jesus. The word (word) in John 1:1 is the word (logos). This word (logos) has to do with (will, thought, words) and is referring to YAHWEH's (thoughts, will, words).

I totally agree that the word became flesh in that Jesus was obedient to the (word) in expressing or living out the will or word of God. When we see Jesus we see the Father because Jesus was obedient in expressing the Father name or character through obeying the Father's word. We can see the same thing in us. When we obey the words of Jesus people will see Jesus when they see us.

One very important factor people leave out in teaching or believing Jesus is totally the word in flesh making Him co-eternal and co-equal with YAHWEH and that is, Jesus had His own (will, thoughts and words) along with His Father's. What made Jesus the perfect sacrifice is that He continued in odedience to His Father's will even unto death.

Hebrews 5:8-9 Though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,.

Philippians 2:8-9 And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name.

Michael, the archangel the sinless Son of God came down from heaven and took on sinful flesh. He was truly tempted to live His own life as a man the way He wanted. He was tempted in all areas as we are to resist the will of God and do His own thing but rather He humbled Himself in obedience even unto death vs being proud and rebellious like us.

[k4c]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 13 2005,00:40)

Quote (k4c @ Dec. 13 2005,00:26) Quote (Bastian @ Dec. 12 2005,20:55) Hi Nick and All, In Daniel Michael is one of the chief princes. That means that there are others like him, he is not unique. He is the prince over Israel that is what sets him apart. He contended with the devil over the body of Moses. I find it odd when Michael became a flesh being made a little lower then the angels he commanded demons, he had power over them, but not when he was their equal as a spirit being, interesting. Be well, B. That word (one) can also be (first). If interpreted in light of Scripture the word would be (first) as in the beginning of God's creation. Revelation 3:14  “And to the angel of the church in La-odicea write: 'The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.   Does not the Bible say that Jesus was made a little lower than angels and yet He still commands demons. How can this be so? I'll tell you how, because anointed Him to do so. Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power; how he went about doing good and healing all that were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.   Even the Apostles themselves casted out demons, healed the sick and raised the dead just as Jesus did. The miracles the Apostles did were so powerful that it caused the people of their day to say, 'The gods have come down to us in human form'. Does this sound familiar? Acts 14:10-11 So, Paul shouted, “Stand up on your feet!'' The man jumped up and began walking around.  And when the crowds saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in Lycaonian, “The gods have come down to us in the likeness of men!” No not quite k4c, Heb 2.7 ” You have MADE him for a little while lower than the angels” does not mean when he was begotten he was lower than the angels. It must be taken alongside Phil 2.5-6 where it says “he emptied himself taking the form of a bondservant, and being MADE in the likeness of men” That making was his partaking of flesh and becoming man. He clearly had life in himself before that time or there would be no mention of any change.

Michael was made a little lower then angels for the suffering of death.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

In Michael lowering Himself taking on sinful flesh He was becoming one of us.

Hebrews 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil.

Remember, God sent His Son from heaven to save mankind. Michael is God's Son and the Angel of God's presence or God's chief representative.

Isaiah 63:9 In all their affliction He was afflicted, and the Angel of His Presence saved them; in His love and in His pity He redeemed them; and He bore them and carried them all the days of old.

[k4c]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 13 2005,00:40)

Quote (k4c @ Dec. 13 2005,00:26) Quote (Bastian @ Dec. 12 2005,20:55) Hi Nick and All, In Daniel Michael is one of the chief princes. That means that there are others like him, he is not unique. He is the prince over Israel that is what sets him apart. He contended with the devil over the body of Moses. I find it odd when Michael became a flesh being made a little lower then the angels he commanded demons, he had power over them, but not when he was their equal as a spirit being, interesting. Be well, B. That word (one) can also be (first). If interpreted in light of Scripture the word would be (first) as in the beginning of God's creation. Revelation 3:14  “And to the angel of the church in La-odicea write: 'The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.   Does not the Bible say that Jesus was made a little lower than angels and yet He still commands demons. How can this be so? I'll tell you how, because anointed Him to do so. Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power; how he went about doing good and healing all that were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.   Even the Apostles themselves casted out demons, healed the sick and raised the dead just as Jesus did. The miracles the Apostles did were so powerful that it caused the people of their day to say, 'The gods have come down to us in human form'. Does this sound familiar? Acts 14:10-11 So, Paul shouted, “Stand up on your feet!'' The man jumped up and began walking around.  And when the crowds saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in Lycaonian, “The gods have come down to us in the likeness of men!” No not quite k4c, Heb 2.7 ” You have MADE him for a little while lower than the angels” does not mean when he was begotten he was lower than the angels. It must be taken alongside Phil 2.5-6 where it says “he emptied himself taking the form of a bondservant, and being MADE in the likeness of men” That making was his partaking of flesh and becoming man. He clearly had life in himself before that time or there would be no mention of any change.

Jesus has life in Himself now because His Father gave this power to Him.

John 5:26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.

Regarding Philippians, Jesus is the image of God, not eqaul to God but rather His image. As He states, to equal with God is not a thing that can be had. Jesus is the image of God. God's only begotten Son. Jesus knowing this He did not exalt Himself as God like the first Adam did but rather He submitted Himself to His Father's will in that He became a servant.

Hebrews 5:8-9 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

[k4c]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 12 2005,19:30)

Do you believe Jesus preexisted? If so, how?[/quote] Hi k4c, What do you mean? Do you mean that existence only begins at physical birth? If so you say God does not exist.

I don't think my question was too hard. Maybe if I ask it slower.

Do you believe Jesus preexisted?

[k4c]

Quote (Sultan @ Dec. 12 2005,19:16)

Quote (k4c @ Dec. 12 2005,14:04) Quote (Sultan @ Dec. 12 2005,14:51) K4C, I'm still waiting for my scripture that says Jesus is Michael. I hope you're not waiting for a new bible translation to come out with the verse in it (joke). Do you believe Jesus preexisted? If so, how? I'm still waiting for my scripture. If what you believe is biblical why are you trying to ask me questions? Please give me the scripture and the debate is over or maybe there is no scripture, and so we have to speculate until we can rationalize that Jesus was Michael. John 1:1 and 1:14 tell us how Jesus existed before coming in the flesh. See how easy that was. No speculation, I'm not answering your question with a question, I'm just giving you the scripture.

I have given several dozen of Scriptures throughout this forum. I'll have to go step by step so it will be easier to grasp.

Do you believe Jesus preexisted?

[k4c]

Quote (Bastian @ Dec. 12 2005,20:55)

Hi Nick and All, In Daniel Michael is one of the chief princes. That means that there are others like him, he is not unique. He is the prince over Israel that is what sets him apart. He contended with the devil over the body of Moses. I find it odd when Michael became a flesh being made a little lower then the angels he commanded demons, he had power over them, but not when he was their equal as a spirit being, interesting. Be well, B.

That word (one) can also be (first). If interpreted in light of Scripture the word would be (first) as in the beginning of God's creation.

Revelation 3:14 “And to the angel of the church in La-odicea write: 'The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.

Does not the Bible say that Jesus was made a little lower than angels and yet He still commands demons. How can this be so? I'll tell you how, because anointed Him to do so.

Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power; how he went about doing good and healing all that were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.

Even the Apostles themselves casted out demons, healed the sick and raised the dead just as Jesus did. The miracles the Apostles did were so powerful that it caused the people of their day to say, 'The gods have come down to us in human form'. Does this sound familiar?

Acts 14:10-11 So, Paul shouted, “Stand up on your feet!'' The man jumped up and began walking around. And when the crowds saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in Lycaonian, “The gods have come down to us in the likeness of men!”

[k4c]

Quote (Sultan @ Dec. 12 2005,14:51)

K4C, I'm still waiting for my scripture that says Jesus is Michael. I hope you're not waiting for a new bible translation to come out with the verse in it (joke).

Do you believe Jesus preexisted?

If so, how?

[k4c]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 12 2005,17:37)

Hi k4c, We often hear in these forums your plaintive cry that “if you were of God you would accept what I say”. Everyone thinks they are right.We have weighed your words and found them of man, not God. You are speaking with the voice of a stranger[Jn 10] You have gone beyond the teaching of Christ[2Jn] Your teachings do not remind us of Christ's[Jn 16] It is you that has abandoned the safe path of revealed truth and are preferring your own inspirations. You are into baseless speculations 1Tim 1.4, Rom 1.21, 2Tim 2.23. We all need the Spirit to guide our feet but we also need the map of Scripture to know the spirit is the Spirit of God.

Nick,

Do you believe Jesus is eternally co-equal in all things with His Father?

If so, teach me how you came to this belief.

[k4c]

Quote (Sultan @ Dec. 12 2005,02:30)

Quote (k4c @ Dec. 11 2005,13:31) Don't say His name is Jesus because the name Jesus was given to Him by His earthy family. Matthew 1:20-21 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. “And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.'' Jesus' earthly family did not give Him His name. The scripture that you quote says that the angel of the Lord gave Jesus His name. Please just simply give me the scripture that says Jesus is Michael. Your belief system is exactly the same as the trinity, a bunch of speculation and preconceived ideas. It sounds to me that you just exchanged one false doctrine for another. Even though you're saying you're not a  JW you are believing their false teaching. So if I'm wrong give me the verse of scripture.

You missed my point.

I understand the angel told Jesus' family what name to call Him but that name, Jesus, came to be through His birth as the Son of man. What was Jesus' name before He took on sinful flesh?

Proverbs 30:4 Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son's name, If you know?

[k4c]

A big part of salvation is the the setting free by way of truth.

John 8:32 “And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.''

Has God reveals truth He is watching for the acceptance of it by the person. If there is true repentance in a person God will reveal more truth to the person. This is how God draws His people out of the world, this is how God save His people.

Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal things, but the glory of kings is to search things out.

If you study the way God works you will see that He hides truth from some by way of parables, but to those who come to Him truly seeking His wisdom He will reveal the deeper truths.

Matthew 13:9-17 “He who has ears to hear, let him hear!'' and the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?'' He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. “For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. “Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. “And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: `Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, and seeing you will see and not perceive; for the heart of this people has grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, lest they should understand with their heart and turn, so that I should heal them.' “But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; “for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

John 14:21 The one who obeys me is the one who loves me; and because he loves me, my Father will love him; and I will too, and I will reveal myself to him.''

[k4c]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 11 2005,19:12)

Hi k4c, The angel of the Lord is only identified as “the angel of the Lord” To go beyond this is to enter the fascinating but useless world of speculation.

This is where you fall short…

I'll give you another clue.

Judges 13:18 And the Angel of the Lord said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?''

[k4c]

Don't say His name is Jesus because the name Jesus was given to Him by His earthy family.

Matthew 1:20-21 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. “And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.''

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