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September 5, 2006 at 9:44 am#27391

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Quote (Elidad @ Sep. 03 2006,23:47)

Did the disciples worship Jesus? Should Christians worship someone other than God? Does worship of Jesus prove He is God?

WORSHIP! In the English language it can mean: 1. Reverent homage or service paid to God. 2. Recognition, honor, respect given to men. 3. Great love or adoration for a person or thing. 4. A title of respect for some officials. (such as magistrates or mayors)

In the Bible, the main meaning comes across as much the same.

1. To bow down before. 2. By kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication.

It is used of homage shown to superior rank …. to GOD; and to MEN; and to ANGELS.

WHEN ANGELS OR MEN RECEIVE “WORSHIP” IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT THEY ARE GOD! WORSHIP OF GOD ALONE

It can be seen above that “worship” has several meanings. But there is ONE particular sense in which GOD ALONE is to be worshipped. Worship in this sense applies to no other.

There are many places in the Old Testament where it is clear that The LORD is to be the sole object of divine worship. The LORD (Yahweh) is the ONLY GOD.

“For thou shalt worship NO OTHER GOD: for the LORD, (Yahweh) whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.” (Exodus 34:14)

It is quite clear from many OT references that God the Father is Yahweh, and that Jesus is NOT Yahweh.

I think that we need first to clarify the term “worship” which is the subject of this discussion. What does it really mean?

I have found information in The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia about the term worship. In the Bible there were so many words which are translated in English language as “worship” but there is something very important to notice that we need to be careful in chosing the word to be used for worship.

WORSHIP: Proskuneo(greek) (Strong's Number 4352)

1) to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence.
2) among the Orientals,esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence.
3) in the New Testament by kneeling or prostration to do homage shown to men of superior rank.
1) to the Jewish high priest
2) to GOD
3) to Christ
4) to heavenly beings
5) to demons
According to this reference,
It is rendered 16 times to Jesus as a beneficient superior; at least 24 times to GOD or to Jesus as GOD.

With regard to your question, Does Worship of Jesus prove he is God? My answer is Yes. Why? Let us analyze these verses!

I have sworn by Myself; the word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to Me every knee shall bow,every tounge shall take an oath. Isaiah 45:23

If we will compare this verse to Phill.2:10-11, it says;

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow , of those in heaven ,and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, And that every tounge shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

We will simply notice that in Isaiah the Speaker says ” I have sworn by Myself” ” to Me every knee shall bow” (Myself,Me). It notably means that He SWORN by Himself that to Him (only to Him) every knee shall bow and every tounge shall take an oath.
So why did He commanded angels to worship Jesus? Did GOD violate His very own word?

The answer is “NO.” Jesus is worthy to recieved worship just as the Father because Jesus is of equal essence or nature as the Father. In Zechariah 13:7 the word “fellow” has the Hebrew meaning “equal.”

There is a verse in the Bible that flagrantly saying, “I will not give My glory to another.” So why did God give his glory to another? In the name of Jesus by commanding angels to worship Jesus if Jesus is just only a man.

Also the book of Jeremiah says in chapter 17 verses 5;

Thus says the LORD: “Cursed is the man who trusts in “MAN” and makes his flesh his strength, whose heart departs from the LORD.

But in Book Of Psalms the scripture says;

Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, and you perish in the way, when His wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are those who trust in Him. Ps.2:12 NKJV

Only GOD has the right to recieved worship as Exodus 20:5 says. In the ministry of Jesus Christ here on earth he allowed his believers and even his apostles to worship him without any rejection or hesitation and it happened that Jesus never rebuked any one of them but instead blessed.

In the solid confession of Thomas in John 20:28 “My LORD and my GOD” ( Gk. The LORD of me the GOD of me) Jesus never rebuked Thomas but instead affirmed ” Thomas because you have seen Me,you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”John 20:29

August 24, 2006 at 8:11 am#25488

jmsad07

Participant

Quote (camrezaie @ Aug. 24 2006,04:31)

everything you said in your post was 100% lies… good luck…. i feel sorry for people like you… im going to stay away from people like you and the beliefs that they are trying to teach…. you just told this board a stack of lies why good luck trying to get people to side with you…

Good Day!

I don't like to offened you Carmezaie but that is what I know. Do you know your little booklet “Should You Believe in the Trinity”
The web http://www.bible.ca posted this some qoutation qouted by Watchtower. Let us read it.

1) …the fact has to be faced that New Testament research… has been leading an increasing refutable number New Testament scholars to the conclusion that Jesus…. certainly never believed to himself to be God.” sorry for the inconvenience….Bulletin of John Rylands Library, Vol.50(1967-68)p. 247-261)

2)The bulletin of John Rylands in England notes that according to Chatolic theologians Karl Rahner, while theos is used in scriptures such as John 1:1 in reference to Christ, “in none of these instances is theos used in such a manner as to identify Jesus with him who elsewhere in the New Testament figures as 'ho theos,' that is the Supreme God
And the bulletin adds,
“If the New Testament writters believed it vital that the faithful should confess that Jesus as 'God', is the almost complete absence of just this form of confession in the New Testament explicable.” Bulletin of the John Rylands Library, Vol.50,(1967-68)
p247-261

Hey! that's not the end but they ommit something very vital in the text of Rahner.

Rahner, however, goes on to say that ” in none of this instances is ''theos'' used in such a manner as to identify Jesus with him who elsewhere in the New Testament figures as “ho Theos,” that is, the Supreme God. In the article, Does the New Testament Call Jesus God? Expository Times, lxxiii, No. 4 (January 1962) p. 118.)

Notice that the Watchtower ommits the other 5 texts where Rahner says Theos refers to Christ. The second Watchtower qoute after, “AND THE BULLETIN ADDS”, was not the word of Rahner at all, but by Boobyer the Christianity trasher.

OK, Is this evidence not enough to prove that there is “cut and paste theology” in your denomination? I'm just asking! There is a lot of more evidences in the web. http://www.bible.ca.

If you want to read, kindly proceed to that web.

I dont want to comment about what you have said that “what I have posted is 100% lies, but try to read the said booklet and read the posted document in http://www.bible.ca. If I have misrepresented the text there kindly question me.

Sorry, if i hurt you but let me explain. I dont want to attack your denomination. I have read the posted document in page one that displayed the different translation which i consider perverted because most of them is translated by one-man translator and that is very vulneravle to willful perversion. I am a new registered member of this forum and i don't know that this topic has already more than 300 pages of different opinion and commments so it falls into a wrong person.

August 24, 2006 at 8:08 am#25487

jmsad07

Participant

Quote (camrezaie @ Aug. 24 2006,04:31)

Good Day!

Hey! that's not the end but they ommit something very vital in the text of Rahner.

OK, Is this evidence not enough to prove that there is “cut and paste theology” in your denomination? I'm just asking! There is a lot of more evidences in the web. http://www.bible.ca.

If you want to read, kindly proceed to that web.

August 24, 2006 at 3:12 am#25448

jmsad07

Participant

Good Day!

I would like to comment with the different perverted translations presented by a Jehovah's Witness member! Those different translations were manufactured by a single-man translator whose sole desire is just to create deception.
Do you not know that some of your presented translations was biasly made by bible trashers,skeptic,and agnostic but perhaps atheist. If you will search for their credibility you will notice that they were rejected by true and reliable theologians and scholars.
My bible was not forgely made by a single person but by a panel or committe of translators to avoid willful perversion of the texts. Could you trust your theologian's credibility? One of the sites in the web said that the Jehovah's Witness used the HOSTILE WITNESS APPROACH or tantamount to SATANIC QOUTING PRACTICE. This is their web. http://www.bible.ca If you will search for the reliability of your belief in the TRINITY, you will flagrantly found that it is wanting and your argument is based on forgery of untrusted or unreliable theologians.

If you want to say that Trinity is of pagan origin, you were decieved by your minister because if you will know how they quote from an 'evolutionist' not in a 'creationist' you will comprehend and understand that they were not just trashing the trinitarians but the entire Christianity. The desperate acts of your denomination prove that they are compromising for the sake of survival due to the unreliable and faulty doctrines.

I would like to say and warn that you must stop the “cut and paste theology” and faulty and unreliable quoting from the bible trashers and skeptic.

August 22, 2006 at 9:23 am#25257

jmsad07

Participant

Hi!
The word firstborn does not litterally mean a created being but rather:

1) first in position
” Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD: “Israel is My son, My firstborn. Exodus 4:22 NKJV

2) heir
… for I am a Father to Israel, and Ephraim is My firstborn.
Jer.31:9 NKJV

3) supreme
Also I will make him My firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth. Ps.89:27

Many anti-trinitarians claim that Jesus Christ was created being of God but this passages prove that they were all running out of interpretaion.

The mystery in the Bible can not be fathomed by the finite mind of human being if without the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truht. Everyone must need to experience Scriptural illumination so that they could have faith to the mysterious and unseen things. “Christian life is from faith to faith”

If we will search for the passage in the Bible which proves the existence of Jesus in the Old Testament, It is quite difficult task because there is no name Jesus Christ ever mentioned in the old testament but there is a very mysterious personality known as the “Angel of the LORD.” Many theologians believed that the “Angel of the LORD”
is the incarnated Son of God prior to His incarnation.

Let us examine the claim of Jesus Christ of His existence in the Old Testament;

Jesus said,
“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” John 8:56 NKJV

… and he saw it and was glad.
What does this verse mean?
” Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” John 5:57 NKJV
” Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
John 5:58 NKJV

If we will analyze the event during the destruction of Sodom and Gomorah the mysterious LORD appeared to him at the terebinth trees of Mamre;

…and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground,(2)
” My LORD, if I have now found favor in Your sight, do not pass on Your servant.(3)
And Abraham ran to the herd, took a tender calf, gave it to a young man, and he hastened to prepare it.(7)

Are these verses parallel to the gospel of Jonh,
“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” John 8:56 NKJV

The Bible said that God is Spirit, and no one have seen God and live, the spirit does not have flesh and bones but if YAHWEH appeared to Abraham and ate the offered food of Abraham, does it contradict the nature of GOD as stated in the scripture.
… and he stood by them under the tree as they ate.
Gen. 18:8 NKJV
If this event prove the pre-existence of the Son of God then Jesus is really God. (YAHWEH) Is there a man who existed before Abraham and did not experience death.

August 22, 2006 at 9:09 am#25250