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[igorwulff]

To me it seems that Satan first sinned in the Garden of Eden when lying to Eve and making her go against the will of YHWH. Ezekiel 28:11-19, is at first about the king of Tyre, but to me it seems to be about the one who was working behind this king, the Satan.

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11 The word of the LORD came to me: 12 "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:       " 'You were the model of perfection,       full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 You were in Eden,       the garden of God;       every precious stone adorned you:       ruby, topaz and emerald,       chrysolite, onyx and jasper,       sapphire, [b] turquoise and beryl. [c]       Your settings and mountings [d] were made of gold;       on the day you were created they were prepared. 14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,       for so I ordained you.       You were on the holy mount of God;       you walked among the fiery stones. 15 You were blameless in your ways       from the day you were created       till wickedness was found in you. 16 Through your widespread trade       you were filled with violence,       and you sinned.       So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,       and I expelled you, O guardian cherub,       from among the fiery stones. 17 Your heart became proud       on account of your beauty,       and you corrupted your wisdom       because of your splendor.       So I threw you to the earth;       I made a spectacle of you before kings. 18 By your many sins and dishonest trade       you have desecrated your sanctuaries.       So I made a fire come out from you,       and it consumed you,       and I reduced you to ashes on the ground       in the sight of all who were watching. 19 All the nations who knew you       are appalled at you;       you have come to a horrible end       and will be no more.' "

Since the King of Tyre, wasn't in the guarden of Eden and is descibed as blameless until wickedness was found in him, I think atleast a part of it (the part about eden and such) is about the Satan. What do you think?

[igorwulff]

George,

For the most part I agree with you. But aren't the Jews, these Israelites the first fruits, the people who are Jews in spirit? It is through faith that we can be children/descendants of Abraham.

[igorwulff]

Hello, I’m currently looking through baptism. I myself was baptized with the passage written down in Matthew 28:19. However for me at this time it seems to be very conflicting with the baptism in the name of Jesus (Yeshua, etc…).

There is one Hebrew Matthew manuscript, Shem Tob’s, who was opposed to Christians and might (probably has) have changed certain details in his manuscript, which doesn’t include this way of baptism. So I don’t know how reliable it is, especially since ALL the Greek manuscripts have the formula. But Shem Tob’s manuscript doesn’t have the formula in 28:19, but something like: “Go and make disciples in my name” or similar. Eusebius did quote Matthew 28:19 but never with the baptism in the name of the Father, Son, Spirit, prior to Nicea (325), even though Eusebius didn’t always quote a passage exactly the same way… however it is to me very weird that he didn’t quote Matthew 28:19 correctly for about 20 times or so.

Why if the baptism in Matthew 28:19 is the correct one, is it only named in that exact way only once in the bible? There is only one witness to it, itself. So how do you look towards this? Do you interpret this passage differently?

I’ve copied this from some other site which has all (i think) bible references in the NT towards baptism:
I see now that they didn’t include Matthew 28:19

Code Sample

Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Name could imply authority… or couldn’t it?

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Matthew 3:5-7 People went out to him from Jerusalem and all Judea and the whole region of the Jordan. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River. But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? Matthew 3:11-14 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.Baptism with Holy Spirit and fire.  Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?” Matthew 3:16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. Matthew 21:25 John’s baptism—where did it come from? Was it from heaven, or from men?” Mark 1:4-5 And so John came, baptizing in the desert region and preaching a baptism of Baptism of repentance. repentance for the forgiveness of sins. The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River. Mark 1:8-10 I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.” At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. As Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. Mark 10:38-39 “You don’t know what you are asking,” Jesus said. “Can you drink the cup I drink or be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with?” “We can,” they answered. Jesus said to them, “You will drink the cup I drink and be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with, Mark 11:30 John’s baptism—was it from heaven, or from men? Tell me!” Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. Luke 3:3 He went into all the country around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. Luke 3:7 John said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? Luke 3:16 John answered them all, “I baptize you with water. But one more powerful than I will come, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. Luke 3:21-22 When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.” Luke 12:50 But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is completed! Luke 20:4 John’s baptism—was it from heaven, or from men?” Luke 7:29-30 (All the people, even the tax collectors, when they heard Jesus’ words, acknowledged that God’s way was right, because they had been baptized by John. But the Pharisees and experts in the law rejected God’s purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.) John 1:24-26 Now some Pharisees who had been sent questioned him, “Why then do you baptize if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?” “I baptize with water,” John replied, “but among you stands one you do not know. John 1:33 I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’ John 3:22 After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized. John 4:1-3 The Pharisees heard that Jesus was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John, although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples. When the Lord learned of this, he left Judea and went back once more to Galilee. Acts 1:5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” Acts 1:22 beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.” Acts 2:37-39 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” Acts 2:41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day. Acts 8:12-13 But when they believed Philip as he preached the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw. Acts 8:16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. Acts 8:36 As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. Why shouldn’t I be baptized?” Acts 8:38 And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. Acts 9& #58;18 Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, Acts 10:37 You know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— Acts 10:47-48 Then Peter said, “Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days. Acts 11:16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ Acts 13:24 Before the coming of Jesus, John preached repentance and baptism to all the people of Israel. Acts 16:15 When she and the members of her household were baptized, she invited us to her home. “If you consider me a believer in the Lord,” she said, “come and stay at my house.” And she persuaded us. Acts 16:33 At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his family were baptized. Acts 18:8 Crispus, the synagogue ruler, and his entire household believed in the Lord; and many of the Corinthians who heard him believed and were baptized. Acts 18:25 He had been instructed in the way of the Lord, and he spoke with great fervor and taught about Jesus accurately, though he knew only the baptism of John. Acts 19:3-6 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?” “John’s baptism,” they replied. Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. Acts 22:16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’ Romans 6:3-4 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 1 Corinthians 1:13-17 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. 1 Corinthians 10:1-3 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. They all ate the same spiritual food 1 Corinthians 12:13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 1 Corinthians 15:29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? Galatians 3:26-28 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Ephesians 4:4-6 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. Colossians 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. 1 Peter 3:20-22 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge

[igorwulff]

Marty?

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Galatians 3:6-9 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[c] 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”[d] 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Galatians 3:26-29 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

[igorwulff]

Mike wasn't the next chapter a continuation of two of the three Angels, if I remember correctly? The Bible states that YHWH is spirit, that he is no man nor a son of man, and that he is the invisible God.

Genesis 18:22 – The men turned away and went toward Sodom

Genesis 19:1 – The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening

What is your opinion about the Angel (messenger) of YHWH? Some say he is Yeshua, before his human existence and that he was representative for YHWH, that he spoke for Him.

[igorwulff]

Gene, what about Jude 1:9 and that dispute between Michael and Satan?

[igorwulff]

The word used in most and probably all cases where it says that someone is getting worshiped in the NT is proskuneo:

1. to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
2. among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence
3. in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication
a. used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank
1. to the Jewish high priests
2. to God
3. to Christ
4. to heavenly beings
5. to demons

The meaning of the word is actually showing respect and reference? You could go all the way and say that they were worshiping (as to God) or were just simply showing respect to Yeshua as Messiah, King and Son of God. What do you guys think?

I know that worship can mean something similar, but it's meaning is more towards a diety. hmm…

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Exodus 34:14 Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

The intrepretation of proskuneo and such words is seen in translation:

Acts 10:25
(KJV)
As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him.”

(NIV)
As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence.

I think it also has to do with authority… Peter was just a man and wasn't any higher or better then Cornelius. Yeshua was of-course in a higher position as future King, Messiah and Son of God, he should be respected and honored for that. While honoring Yeshua we honor God. However Yeshua also clearly told us (and was including himself) to only worship the Almighty God.

[igorwulff]

Gene,

Peter was at that very moment opposing Yeshua, so he was called a Satan, perhaps because at that moment he was doing what Satan wanted. Peter is of course a great brother of us, and we all make mistakes, he really loved Yeshua and didn't want him to die and didn't really understood at that moment, what needed to be done.

But Satan is a fallen angel, the bible is very clear on this, especially in the New Testament, but also in the Old Testament.

[igorwulff]

Verses like these really tell a lot about who Yeshua was and is in relation to YHWH.

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Hebrews 5:7-10 who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, 8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, 10 called by God as High Priest “according to the order of Melchizedek,”

[igorwulff]

Hey JustAskin! 

Well I was trying to say, and it might be possibly that I interpret passages differently then you sometimes, but definetly from JW and TT, that of-course the last one is true.

The thing Paul is trying to say is, if I remember correctly is that we should have the same humble attitude. We shouldn't be like Satan who had a lot of power and wanted to become equal to YHWH, but be like Yeshua, who even with his power and glory as firstcreation didn't seek at any time equality with God, but instead lowered himself below the Angels and died for sinful men, out of love for His Father and us and was raised again by God.

But what is wrong with saying that Yeshua was in the form of God, or was similar in form of God, when he is also called the Image of God? Clearly both identify Yeshua as someone else then God, it just depends how you (want to) read it… will think about it.  

[igorwulff]

How do you think about Philippians 2:6?

(NIV)
Who, being in very nature[a] God,
     did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

a. Or in the form of

(NKJV)
who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God

I think that in this vers the NIV translated it rather wel… Yeshua is the Image of God, to be called the “morphe” means more something like shape/form. In context the NIV translation also appears to be better then most others, like KJV… ah the pressure translators have to sell more books.

[igorwulff]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 16 2010,09:57)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 15 2010,16:41) Hi TT, The Spirit of the living God indwelled Jesus and he is the fountain for that eternal life for men. Jn7 Come to him as talking about theoretical stuff just makes you a philosopher. You can know the God of jesus but you cannot know a committee god. You can know God only by knowing Jesus who is God, “one with the Father and the Holy Spirit”! WJ

We can also become one with Yeshua and with God, does this means according to your way of thinking that we also will become God Almighty?

Are you saying that Yeshua was God on Earth? The bible teaches several things about who and what God is, and clearly Yeshua can't be Almighty God as a human being. I'm now not talking about pre-existence and stuff like that. We also know that Yeshua has and will receive all kinds of things from God and that Yeshua is sitting at the right hand of YHWH. However the bible clearly states that Yeshua lowered himself before YHWH and became lower then the Angels for a while.

[igorwulff]

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1 Corinthians 1:10 Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name. 16 Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.

[igorwulff]

No I didn't, WJ.

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1 John 5:11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

[igorwulff]

Hmm.. wel lets see

1 John 4:7
Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.

1 John 5:11
And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

So it is the God of Yeshua who gives us eternal life through/in his Son. I think my interpretation of “this is the True God and eternal life” are right.

[igorwulff]

Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 16 2010,08:47)

And your “God is your throne” mistranslation has no validity in grammar. It has no validity in context either. The whole passage is about the excellence of the Son. thinker

About the grammer.. I'm looking into it.  

[igorwulff]

Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 16 2010,08:09)

Quote (igorwulff @ Feb. 16 2010,07:05) TT, Quote houtos 1) this, these, etc. Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 356 AV — this 157, these 59, he 31, the same 28, this man 25, she 12, they 10, misc 34 “This (Jesus Christ) is the true God and eternal life.” So what's your point? thinker

Well it shows that a different interpretation is more likely.

[igorwulff]

And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

that we mag know HIM… The Son of God has given/gives us understanding and let us know who the Father is:

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John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent

that we may know HIM that is true… clearly John is revering to the God of Jesus.

[igorwulff]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 16 2010,08:19)

Quote (igorwulff @ Feb. 15 2010,15:11) Either God is saying that Yeshua is the greatest of Creation (which excludes YHWH, because he isn't created)… Igor Jesus is also excluded from creation… All things came into being through Him, and “**APART FROM HIM NOTHING CAME INTO BEING** that has come into being. John 1:3 Blessings WJ

firstborn of creation, beginning of the creation of God.  

[igorwulff]

Well at this moment I'm thinking of two things, Thinker,

Either God is saying that Yeshua is the greatest of Creation (which excludes YHWH, because he isn't created)… or the vers is mistranslated and should be, will require a bit of further studying.

God is your throne forever and ever

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