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[hope2u]

Quote (david @ May 17 2007,19:16)

Quote David this is the reason that your religion is a cult. Because it says that you are the “Elite”, the only saved, the only church, and you have the only true bible. 1.  WJ, you don't know what the word “cult” means, or you don't understand JW's at all. 2.  WJ, the idea that there are many acceptable ways to worship God, many roads all leading to the same place is just not Biblical.  Think back to the early Christians. 3.  WJ, what did the early Christians believe?  Did they believe that those who believed other things than they did, false things were on the right track?  According to the early Christians, and the Bible writers, do you think there are many acceptable versions of Christianity, all teaching different things, and holding to different standards of conduct, yet all on the right road? 4. We have never ever said we have the only true Bible.   Quote Can anyone out side of the JW camp be saved? Earlier, you quoted a site that is completely anit-JW that said something to that effect.  Your quote from them had a couple errors if I remember, one being that we don't believe Jesus is divine (godlike).   Here's what I believe.  Right now, there is really only one group proclaiming the good news of the kingdom in all the earth. (mat 24:14) Only one.  You can say the mormons are doing it too, but they're not doing it in all the earth and there's only one out of every 200 that are missionaries, if I remember correctly.  So, as a group, JW's are the only one's that are doing this work.  (If you say JW's aren't, then who is?  Who is approaching people everywhere?  Who has come to me?) This being the case, that Jehovah has graciously given people eveywhere a chance to hear the greatest news and decide whether they like what they hear. “he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus.  These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction.” (2 thess 1:8,9) What I am saying is this.  If someone hears the good news and does not obey it, or follow it and act on what they hear…if they were given the choice and the chance to follow God and choose not to, if they were warned and disregarded this warning message….if God sends out a message and a person closes their ears, what can we expect? But, there are many who have lived on this earth in periods of dark ages and some places where people just can't get to, that for whatever reason haven't been given this opportunity.  God is just.   So, no, we don't believe as you falsely say. But I do believe that what I know is true, AS YOU DO YOURSELF.   Let me ask you:  Who will be saved?  Those who believe just as you do?  Please answer. Quote David I was trying to have serious dialogue aboiut John 1:1 with you, but you resorted to your same ole practices, and patronizing. Um,  YA.. IF BY NAME CALLING YOU MEAN ME SAYING THIS EXTRAORDINARILY TRUTHFUL FACT: “When you compare what the early Christians did and believed, you'll find it's quite different from your life WJ. Then, I ask: What “name” did I call you? You really haven't discussed John 1:1 with me at all.  You've stated these things: 1.  The majority is right, therefore your translation is wrong. (a fallacious argument.) 2.  Nope, I think that's it.  I thought there was more, but I was wrong. 3.  Oh, right, in addition to number one, you also repeatedly said that JW's are just wrong, because they're wrong, so the NWT must be wrong, because it was translated by them, and they believe wrong things, so it has to be wrong.  (Also, a fallacious argument.) If it bothers you that I point out that how you reason is unreasonable, I can do nothing about that.  I can direct you to several websites that have various lists of fallacies…. Quote Since you are so confident about your “religion” why dont you tell us about your doctrine especially John 1:1 and 14, where Jesus is an angel in the flesh called michael. You say you have tried to discuss John 1:1 with me, but really, the statement above is the sort of thing you've been doing.  I've pointed out several times to many on this thread that I'd actually like to discuss John 1:1.  If you can't do that, please raise your topic in another thread. Quote Why all the secrecy? If it is the truth why not share it? Or is it that it is pearls that is only privy to the JWs. I have, for about 40 pages.  Find it in another thread.  Again, while some falsely claim that JW's are secretive, we are among the most public open organization on the planet.  We actually invite everyone to our meetings, all of them, and we try to do this personally. Quote Now I realize that to deal with John 1:1 and the NWT which is what this thread is about, then we need to discuss the source of the NWT and the motives behind their translation. Then maybe we will see why they didnt go with the proper translation of John 1:1. Ah, there's the bias we have come to know and love!  Actually, I have I believe done the same, tried to point out how every single one of the translators that translated your John 1:1 scriptures just so happened to already be trinitarians.  Hence, “the Word was God.”  So, if you want to go on this journey, I at least can understand your motives.  But the truth is, what it will come down to is you saying: “You translated it this way because of your beliefs” and I will say: “They translated it that way becaus e they are trinitarians.”   And that will go in circles for a few pages. I really had hoped we'd avoid all of these sorts of devices. I just wanted to discuss John 1:1, specifically the NWT.

David,
I wasn't going to get into this with you because I know how set JW's are. However, I just read the list of 42 JW beliefs on their official site and was apalled. The JW list of beliefs are based on scriptures taken completely out of context. I call it cherry picking, looking for only the verses that fit the doctrine. JW is deceived beyond what I thought. You steal the birthrights of Israel by calling yourselves the 144,000 spiritual Israel. What about the thousands of JW's that aren't chosen as part of that elite group?

You say that Mosaic Law is no longer valid, yet God based the end-times of Daniel's prophecy
of seventy-sevens on the Law and Jesus said He came to fulfill the Law. The Law will not be completely fulfilled until the total time of the seventy sevens is completed at the end of the millennium and the Great White Throne Judgment.

JW uses John 3:3 as the born-again experience and never mentions that it is by the Spirit of God in verse 5.
I counted 18 of the 42 beliefs that are blatently false and/or controlling. JW gives a completely wrong understanding of hell which, if correct, would void the need for a second resurrection for judgement at the White Throne Judgment. Satan has very effectively hidden the truth from all who believe the JW tenets.

No matter what stand anyone takes to reveal the truth to you you will defend JW with one of their lies. There is no win-win. The originator of JW is no better than Mohammad, the originator of Islam, who decided to write his own bible because he disagreed with the Torah and Christian teachings and Joseph Smith who cleverly convinced people that he found golden tablets and wrote the book of Mormon or David Koresh who deceived all those people in Waco, TX and caused their deaths. I could go on and on but I don't think it would do any good. False prophets are here to stay until Jesus returns. You are deceived and choose to stay that way. Your only purpose on this forum is to draw people away and get them involved in useless arguement.
If you want to learn the truth get a KJV, NKJV and use Strong's or Young's Concordance, a good Bible Encyclopedia, and BibleGateway. And above all sever your ties with JW completely. I have said all I will say on this issue.

[hope2u]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 17 2007,14:41)

Hi h2u, Thank you. May your voice be clearly heard here. Folk are so confused and disabled by the philosophies of men.

Nick,
Yes there are many philosophies of men. Sometimes I feel angry about that and sometimes my spirit mourns.

You are only standing guard for the truth. We should all be standing guard and protecting it with our lives. I am very glad I found this website. It provides a place to speak openly and freely of my first love where there are like minded souls to hear and unlike minded souls to learn, myself included.
Thank you and God bless you

[hope2u]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 17 2007,14:26)

Quote (hope2u @ May 17 2007,06:30) WJ, I can see how referring to Jesus as a god would change the entire picture of who Christ is and that is the whole purpose of Satan, isn't it?  As hard as it is, there comes a time that each encounter with an unbeliever must come to an end if they choose not to believe.  The greatest problem we have is unbelievers thinking they are believers and following the truth as they see it.  We can only hope that some piece of truth will take root and grow. Hi h4u, You say “We can only hope that some piece of truth will take root and grow. “ Christ is the truth. He told us what truth is. Jn 17 “17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.'   But men offer us things that are not in the bible as truth, such as the trinity theory. We should totally reject such speculations shouldn't we.

Nick,
We are all in different places in our knowledge of God and Jesus. Isn't that right?
When I said “We can only hope that some piece of truth will take root and grow.” I meant exactly that. The entire Bible is God's truth. What strikes one person to seek more truth may not be what strikes another. Therefore, we can only hope and pray that some piece of truth will take root and grow.

We must listen to the other person and not be too engrossed in enundating them with so much truth that they may not be hearing or won't read because it is TMI (too much information). Build a relationship and learn what it is they are looking for. Then build a little at a time on that.

I am also sometimes guilty of TMI. It is a habit I am working on breaking.

[hope2u]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 17 2007,13:42)

Quote (hope2u @ May 17 2007,07:58) Thank you WJ. However, I lean toward simplistic explanations.  Jesus was a carpenter as his earthly father, Joseph, was a carpenter.  Jesus is deity as his one true father is deity.  His father passed all power to him when he ascended into heaven and received his place on the throne next to his father. As the lamb of God he is the only one anywhere in heaven and earth who can break the seals on the scroll with seven seals.  This is part of the message God gave to Jesus who sent it by the Angel of the Lord to John to write to the churches and record everything he was shown.  I have faith that Jesus and God both know what they are doing and gratitude that I am part of it even though I am an ordinary woman of 68 with only a high school education, but I know that the fulness of the Spirit of God is always at work in me.  My 28 year christian life has been in the study of Bible prophecy most of which I have published on my website.  www.prophecybythebook.com The very first verse that struck me when I started reading the Bible is… Psalm 32:9 Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest (not) they come near unto thee. I let him mold me as he pleases in accordance with his word. Hi h4u, So if deity means god you offer us two. If you foster the trinity belief where is the other deity and how and in which order should they be worshiped? Naah God is ONE-The Father.

Nick,
If you've read any of my posts you would know that I do not foster the trinity position. No matter how I state Father and Son you always come back with some correction of my semantics. There is YHVH the Father and Jesus the Son of YHVH. (The name of God, YHVH, was first given to Moses by God in Exodus 6:2,3– And Elohim spoke to Moses and said to him, “I (am) YHVH;I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as El Shadai, but by my name, YHVH, I was not known to them.”) . YHVH's spirit IS the Holy Spirit of the Bible. There is no third person. To say there is a third person called the Holy Spirit is to say that YHVH has two spirits of equal power. This is not supported in the Bible. What is it you are really asking, Nick?

[hope2u]

Thank you WJ.
However, I lean toward simplistic explanations. Jesus was a carpenter as his earthly father, Joseph, was a carpenter. Jesus is deity as his one true father is deity. His father passed all power to him when he ascended into heaven and received his place on the throne next to his father. As the lamb of God he is the only one anywhere in heaven and earth who can break the seals on the scroll with seven seals. This is part of the message God gave to Jesus who sent it by the Angel of the Lord to John to write to the churches and record everything he was shown. I have faith that Jesus and God both know what they are doing and gratitude that I am part of it even though I am an ordinary woman of 68 with only a high school education, but I know that the fulness of the Spirit of God is always at work in me. My 28 year christian life has been in the study of Bible prophecy most of which I have published on my website. http://www.prophecybythebook.com

The very first verse that struck me when I started reading the Bible is…
Psalm 32:9
Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest (not) they come near unto thee.

I let him mold me as he pleases in accordance with his word.

[hope2u]

WJ,
I can see how referring to Jesus as a god would change the entire picture of who Christ is and that is the whole purpose of Satan, isn't it? As hard as it is, there comes a time that each encounter with an unbeliever must come to an end if they choose not to believe. The greatest problem we have is unbelievers thinking they are believers and following the truth as they see it. We can only hope that some piece of truth will take root and grow.

[hope2u]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 17 2007,05:48)

Quote (hope2u @ May 17 2007,05:23) Sorry! I suffer slips of the finger from time to time.  I meant to write –not Jehovah's Witness. hope2u Quite alright. But the JWs believe they are the true church and are the only ones to be saved on the earth. If you are not part of their religion then they believe… “(Psalm 91:7) “A thousand will fall at your very side And ten thousand at your right hand; To you it will not come near.” All of the Non JWs will fall at their side because they are not in their camp! Here is a quote of what they believe… Jehovah's Witnesses believe they are the only ones who will come through Armageddon. *Anyone who is not a Witness will perish*. They say that at the time of Armageddon the governments of the world will come against the remnant of the 144,000 still alive on earth (spiritual Jerusalem). http://yourbible.ca/index.php?fragid=8 Their bible is part of the few that mistranslate John 1:1. They have their own religion and their own bible and if you dont agree with them you will perish! Sad!

Thank you WJ for your reply. I like that. It is reverse of JW.

Yes it is sad
Satan devised a plan to pull hearts away from God and after they die and realize the truth they cannot change their mind. They are lost forever.
I can't see how creating their own bible by changing some scriptures could negate all of the references in their bible that say it the right way. That would be impossible short of creating an entirely different bible like Joseph Smith did, the book of Morman, which by the way has been revised numerous times to fit the times.
Even the many other translations of the King James version have not changed the Word, maybe stated incorrectly or incompletely but not revised. Again, it is sad but not totally impossible. Everything is possible with YHVH. The seven year tribulation sifting will bring many to Christ. It is the ones who die before then that have no chance.

[hope2u]

Sorry! I suffer slips of the finger from time to time. I meant to write –not Jehovah's Witness.

[hope2u]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 17 2007,04:19)

Quote Listen, there are hundreds of people on here who don't believe the trinity. If you think they're wrong, I want you to show us why each of them shouldn't be trusted.   David Look around! There are more on this sight that dont believe in your false religion and your cultish Bible the NWT, than there are those who are not trinitarians. So that leaves you as the “Elite” right? You are always right, and your religion is the only religion thats right and your NWT is the only true translation. And only the 144000, JWs that are born again, who believe Jesus is Michael the Arch-angel incarnate and who believe God has a god beside him, and that the Holy Spirit is nothing but a force or power of God, and their brain washed followers are right and the rest of the world is wrong. Isnt that what this is all about David? You come here to promote watchtower not to sincerely discuss John 1:1. Your cult is exposed for what it is. You need to repent and leave that cultish religion and follow the true Jesus not Michael the Arch Angel. No fear tactics just truth!

The 144,000 is about the twelve tribes of Israel, Jehovah's Witness.
Pre-tribber's have also robbed the remnant of their true purpose. The general consensus is that the Church will be raptured before the seven years of tribulation begin and the 144,000 remnant of Israel will be left to deal with the tribulation period. However, this remnant has a purpose that most have missed. Prophecy tells us that the remnant will be hidden for the forty-two months of the Antichrist's reign.

The relationship between God and Israel is not finished. In fact, Israel will play a very important part in the completion of prophecy and the commandments of God. At the end of their forty-two months of safety from the Fourth Beast, a.k.a., Antichrist, the twelve tribes will be sealed in the Holy Spirit to meet their Messiah in the air along with the millions of Gentiles and Jews who were sealed before them. The parable of the Workers in the field (Matthew 20:1-17) is parallel to the sealing the of the 144,000. They will be sealed last just before the sound of the last trumpet but will receive the same as those who were sealed before them from the beginning.

Seal six on the scroll with seven seals is about the 144,000 of Israel and a view of the sealing of the 144,000 just before the seventh trumpet sounds. During the last seven years of Daniel's prophecy of seventy-sevens the 144,000 remnant of Israel will be hidden for forty-two months. This time frame coincides with the time of the Antichrist. Here is the reason for their forty-two months of protection: The 144,000 of the twelve tribes of Israel are the appointed representatives of the nation of Israel to be in their sections of land owned by their ancestors for Jubilee. All twelve tribes must be present in order to celebrate Jubilee. The celebration of Jubilee will restore what they lost, end the transgressions of Israel and Jerusalem, bring an end to sin, and establish everlasting righteousness. That is the stated purpose of Jubilee; to make all things new. It is, also, the basis of Daniel's prophecy of seventy-sevens. The last Jubilee is called the Great Day of God and it is the Great Day because it is the millennial reign of Jesus Christ on this earth.

Some, even now as they read these pages, will not believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross to save them from the coming wrath of God, much less believe that God would allow such destruction in the last seven years. They will not believe and repent so as to be sealed by the Spirit of God for salvation. Many of these same people believe that being “good” is enough. It is not enough! We must be sealed by the Holy Spirit, also known as being born-again, to heal and renew our hearts so as to be filled with love for the Father who gave his only son to save us from his wrath. He is a loving father who gives his children a choice. It's really very simple. The destruction is coming, it cannot be diverted. We have the choice of being destroyed on the day of Christ's return or to enjoy life everlasting in peace with God. For those who still doubt and think this is nothing more than a myth, please keep in mind that “truth really is stranger than fiction.”

[hope2u]

quote: We receive the power of YHVH's spirit through His son because he is the sinless son of God, who paid the price on the cross for the sin of all mankind from Adam.

Please understand that only those who receive the truth of what Christ did on the cross and accept Him as their Lord and Savior are washed of the sin of Adam by the born-again experience in the power of the Holy Spirit given to believers to reprove and teach the Body of Christ in preparation for the return of His Son when he will resurrect the dead in Christ and those who are still alive and faithful to take them out before he delivers the wrath of God.

[hope2u]

Quote (Tim2 @ April 10 2007,05:03)

Trinity Verses Direct statements of one God and three persons:   (pretty clear support of Trinity) -Direct statements of the oneness of God:        Deut. 6:4, Deut. 4:35, etc. -no other gods:Isaiah  44:6 -Direct statement of three persons who share the one Name of God:           Matthew 28:19 -Direct statement of the oneness of the Father and Son:                              John 10:30 -Direct statements of the deity of the Son:    John 20:28, 1:1, 1:18 -Direct statements of personality of the Spirit:Acts 13:2 John 14:26 Indirect Statements regarding the deity and personality of the Son and Spirit: (tend to support the Trinity) -Indirect statement of deity of the Holy Spirit:      Acts 5:4-5     2 Corinthians 3:17 -Statements showing shared attributes between the Father and the Son:      John 17:10      John 16:15       John 5:18        John 5:19        John 5:21        John 5:23 -Shared glory between the Father and the Son:      John 17:5 cf.  Isaiah 42:8 -Divine attributes of the Son:-Author of life:  Acts 5:15 -omniscience:   John 16:30   John 21:17    -power and wisdom of God:  1 Cor 1:24 -Divine Titles Given to the Son:-Holy One of God:          Mark 1:24 cf.  Isaiah 1:4 -First and Last:         Rev 1:17, 22:13 cf.  Isaiah 44:6 -Lord of Lords:Rev 17:14 cf. 1 Tim 6:15          cf. Psalm 136:3          cf.  Deut. 10:17 -King of Kings:  Rev. 17:14 cf. 1 Tim 6:16 -Saviour:     Titus 2:13                      cf.  Isaiah 43:11           -Statements showing attributes of the Father given to the Son:        John 5:26 -Use of the divine Name by the Son:        John 8:58 -for the Son:Romans 10:13 -Suggestions that the Son came into existence out of the Father: John 16:27-28      John 16:30 -Indirect statements of the unity of the Father and Son:      John 14:11      John 17:21      John 17:23 -Suggestion of shared attributes between Father, Son, and Spirit:John 16:14-15 -(other) OT direct reference to YHWH applied to the Son:      Hebrews 1:6 / Psalm 97:7 Hebrews 1:10 / Psalm 102:25 -every knee shall bow to Jesus on judgment day:   Philippians 2:10-11      cf.  Isaiah 45:23 -the fullness of deity dwells in Jesus:           Colossians 2:9 -Jesus existed in the form of God:         Philippians 2:6 Allusions and Hints to the Trinity: (in light of above verses, these verses can be seen to show the Trinity) -Allusions to the Son’s deity:  Matthew 1:23 -Son’s exclusive knowledge of the Father:           Matthew 11:27       John 1:18 -Spirit’s exclusive knowledge of God:   1 Cor 2:11 -Jesus will be great     Luke 1:32 -Jesus used interchangeably with God:     Luke 8:39 -the image of God as multiple persons in one flesh:                Genesis 1:27, 2:24 -woman out of man and same flesh as man:             Genesis 2:23 Middle Ground: (could go either way) -the Son of God:  God of God, or creation/mode of God?          Matthew 16:16 -firstborn of creation:  as creator or creation?        Colossians 1:15 -image of God:  because He’s God?       Colossians 1:15 Apparent polytheism   (tend to show multiple gods) -multiple gods?        Psalm 82 Apparent Contradictions   (pretty clear, on the face, to contradict Trinity) -The Father greater than the Son:      John 16:28 -The Son not omniscient?                   Mark 13:32 -The Father the only true God:        John 17:3        1 Cor 8:6 Ephesians 4:6 -God the head of Christ:      1 Cor 11:3 -Son will be subject to the Father:    1 Cor 15:28

Let me start with Strong’s Concordance explanation of God (eloheem).
Eloheem is (gods) in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.
And this is Strong’s Concordance explanation of LORD (YHVH).
From H1961; (the) self existent or eternal; Jehovah (I prefer Yahavah) Jewish national name of God.

God’s name, YHVH, was actually given to Moses in Exodus 6:2,3– And Elohim spoke to Moses and said to him, “I (am) YHVH;I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as El Shadai, but by my name, YHVH,I was not known to them.”

In Psalm 119 each chapter is headed by a letter of the Hebrew alphabet. Each of the letters of YHVH came from ancient pictographs. Y is the Hebrew yod or yud and the pictograph is a simple line drawing of an open hand. H is the Hebrew hey and the pictograph is a stick person kneeled with upraised hands. The V is the Hebrew vav and the pictograph is a circle representing a slave hook or ring. Get the picture of the meaning of YHVH?

Y is the Righteousness of God (hand of God)–Psalms 119:73-80; Ezekiel 20:33-38
H is to Humble yourselves before God (stick person with upraised hands)–Psalms 119:33-40;Romans 1:16-19
V is the command to Serve the Lord (slave ring)–Psalms 119:41-48; Amos 4:2
H is Humble yourselves before God (hand of God)–Nehemiah 8:6; 1Kings 8:54

We know that the Hebrew people, a.k.a. Israel, were not polytheists. They lived in the middle of nations around them that were polytheists. Those nations were constantly trying to impose their polytheist beliefs onto Israel. Israel, being a theist (one God) nation, was constantly warned by God through His prophets to remember that He is the one and only God, ergo, your very first reference: Deut. 6:4 (KJV)—4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD (YHVH) our God (eloheem—self existent, eternal, mighty, exceeding) is one LORD (YHVH): 5 And thou shalt love the LORD (YHVH) thy God (eloheem—self existent, eternal, mighty, exceeding) with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

The way I see it is that the spirit of antichrist that possessed the polytheistic nations of old is still at work and trying to make one self existent, eternal, mighty, exceedingly great God into three. Can’t be done according to what the Bible says. Anyone who chooses to believe that eloheem in reference to YHVH means more than one is being deceived.

One more thought to share and this one is based partly on logic. Gen 1:26—‘And God (eloheem—self existent, eternal, mighty, exceeding) said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.”

Why YHVH gave it to Moses to write, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness” is a mystery and probably should remain a mystery until we have an absolute answer. In the mean time we know that we are m
ade in His image, a spirit being with one spirit (soul and spirit being the same). The point is that YHVH has one spirit and man was made to have one spirit. To say that the Holy Spirit is a separate spirit apart from YHVH with all the power of YHVH is to say our God is polytheistic when the truth is that He is one mighty, self existent, eternal, exceedingly great God and Jesus is His Son. Jesus is the son of God and born a sinless man and is not self existent. We receive the power of YHVH's spirit through His son because he is the sinless son of God, who paid the price on the cross for the sin of all mankind from Adam. If God hasn’t stated an answer to our questions in be Bible then it should be left alone to be answered by him when we see him. He didn't give us the date of Jesus' birth either, so man created a date that happens to be the same birthdate as Antiochus IV of Syria who desecrated the altar in the temple with pig's blood and tried to Helenize Israel. I for one don't appreciate the association for any reason, even if it may have been done to counter the influence of what Antiochus IV did before Christ.
usourour

[hope2u]

HN,
I realize your need to test and am pleased that you do. I am very strong on the need to test everything by God's Word. I am beginning to see some changes in the Body, perhaps because more are realizing the need to test.
Most of the people I know and have known don't question the doctrines they follow, such at the deadly pre-trib and trinity doctrines. I have been ostracized many times because I don't believe in them and give Bible based reasons for not believing them. Tim LaHaye told me I am leading people to hell.
I am thrilled to find others who don't believe that the Holy Spirit is a separate person from YHVH. God has a name, is a person and has only one Spirit who gives us new life and one Son, Jesus, who is our Lord and savior. There are only two, not three, and they are one (meaning Jesus is of one mind with and obedient to his father, God, in the Spirit of God). They are one in the Spirit of God. So you see the person we all know as the Holy Spirit is the person of YHVH. I, for one, am honored to be sealed in the name of God and Jesus and to have both with me by the power of the Spirit of YHVH 24/7. If you wonder why I continually use YHVH, it is to give honor and glory to him. The title of “God” is too generic and we do not have a generic god.
Just a random thought on closing…Isn't it odd that a church full of people can sing the song, “We are one in the Spirit, we are one in the Lord” and still believe in the Trinity and pre-trib?
Praises, honor and glory to our Lord Jesus Christ and our father, YHVH

[hope2u]

Jesus said he came to fulfill the Law. John the Baptist was in the line of priests and Jesus was in the line of kings. In the Law the high priest washed in the temple laver before entering the Holy Place. The baptism in water performed by John for Jesus was part of the fulfillment of the Law he spoke of. It was prophesied in Isaiah 11:1 that a branch from Jesse, who we know is Jesus, would have the Spirit of the Lord rest on him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and strength, the spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord. This did happen when Jesus came up out of the water. By being baptised in water he signified the priesthood and being anointed in the Spirit of God he signified rebirth. In John 3:3 Jesus said “unless one is born-again he cannot see the kingdom of God. The Body of Christ is a priesthood of believers and ministers of God's Word. John 3:5-8 Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, You must be born again. The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
Being born of the Spirit is the same as receiving a seal with the Father's name on it. In the tribulation period people will receive the seal of 666. The faithful in Christ will be sealed by the Father's name, Jesus name and the name of New Jerusalem. Does salvation depend on water baptism? Water baptism is an outward sign of intent but it is the baptism of the Holy Spirit that saves. If there is no water available would that nullify your decision for Christ? No! I didn't feel complete until I was baptised in water. I had a pool in my back yard and wanted my friends in Christ to baptise me then and there. They wouldn't do it. They said I had to wait. They were wrong. It was several months later that I was baptised in water but I had the Spirit of God from the moment I confessed Jesus and my Lord and Savior. I know this because I was suddenly able to read the Bible when I couldn't before. I was hungry to read it and soak up every word. Satan fought hard to change my mind but I wouldn't then and will never go back. It isn't what is outside that counts, it is what is inside. What is in your heart is the decision maker for Father and Son to seal the believer in their name for preparation of His return and that call to “come up here.” Being sealed in the Spirit is the beginning of wisdom and understanding, counsel and knowledge, strength and the fear of the Lord.
As Peter said, “…grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen

[hope2u]

They are Father and Son. I honor both and have no need to qualify how much I honor either one or both. I will not be pulled into picky discussions. It is the picky discussions that cause division in the Body of Christ. There are far more important ways to use the time we have left before Jesus returns, regardless of when that is. When a person dies without the truth of Father and Son, that is YHVH and Jesus and the born-again experience in the Spirit of YHVH, that person doesn't have a second chance to see their error and change. When the call is made for the first resurrection, those who seek and believe the truth as it is written in the Bible will rise to meet Jesus and have eternal life with Father and Son. Those who believe lies and seek their truth from human understanding will stay for the second resurrection after the millennium and suffer eternal separation from Father and Son in a very ugly uncomfortable place called hell. Like I said, those living in the Spirit of God have access to God's wisdom, understanding, knowledge, counsel, and strength. We have that access because of what Jesus did for us on the cross. And because he received glory, honor and power after his ascension, we who believe in him and ask forgivness for our sins receive the Spirit of God. Yes, I honor Father and Son. I stake my life on their truth and will not deny either of them to the point of death, forced or natural.
I am not a member of any denomination. I will not honor denominational differences. I attend church because beleivers need fellowship. I also do not believe in the pre-tribulation rapture or that Rome has anything to do with the Antichrist of the Tribulation period. I believe the 144,000 of Israel have a very special purpose for that time and into the millennium. I would guess that at least 95% of all believers are not even prepared to enter the last seven years of Daniel's 70-7's much less even know what to look for. If you want anything more from me you will have to read my website.
My Webpage

[hope2u]

To all in this chain of discussion:
I don't know if you realize it or not, but this is exactly the kind of disagreement and argument that Satan sits back and has a good laugh at. Degrees in theology and languages doesn't determine a person's understanding of the Scriptures. The only university that counts is the Holy Spirit university in which He is the only professor and teacher. And as remarkable as it is he is able to teach each and every person who calls on Him through Jesus Christ. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and soul and your neighbor as yourself. That is the ten commandments in one sentence and it very clearly says that we are to love and obey God whether you call him Jehovah (which is a misnomer), Yahweh, or Yahavah (YHVH). You see YHVH is God's name. Jesus is the son of YHVH. Maybe that is too simple for all of you scholars out there, I don't know. Jesus was in God's plan from the beginning. Draw your own conclusions, but don't argue about picky things that draw you away from the truth and listening to YHVH. He is the creator, our teacher, Father of those who believe in his son and have become born-again by the power of YHVH's Spirit and the greatest friend you can ever have. He is our source to his wisdom, knowledge, understanding, counsel, strength and knowing that you should have the fear of the Lord in your heart because he knows everything about each and every one of you. How do you think he feels about all of your comparisons of great scholars and human knowledge????

[hope2u]

Quote (david @ May 14 2007,20:38)

Notice he said: “And the Word was a god” OR “And the Word was divine.”  I can, if pressed, explain at length why these two translations amount to the same thing FOR JOHN. The truth is, there doesn't seem to be an absolute perfect way to translate this verse, given the difference in thought and language with English and Greek.  But these two translations come as close as possible.

If I am not mistaken, translators also depend heavily on the contextual use of a word, phrase, or group of phrases when the grammatical translation is difficult. I think this is one of those times. Based on John's total presentation of Jesus, the intention of his opening statement is to drive home the fact that Jesus was and is totally from God, in God and speaks God's word to the world. In that context Jesus was in the beginning with God and he was and is the Word of God.
I believe that trying to find the exact meaning of a word or phrase can sometimes become more important than understanding the intent and context of how it is being used. In much the same way the Jews had difficulty accepting the message Jesus was delivering from God and they tried to stone him because of it. That is a facet of human nature that still exists today.

[hope2u]

I made a post but can't find it, so maybe I didn't send it.
Anyway, hello.
You said my post was interesting. Please give your meaning. Interesting good or interesting way off?

[hope2u]

John 1:1,2—In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  He was in the beginning with God.

Jesus, the son of God (YHVH), is the reason for everything coming into being.  He is the reason God created all things.  In a manner of speaking, Jesus was in the loins of his father in the beginning.  In that sense he was the Word and the Word was God.  Because he was not yet born He existed in God’s word.  John 1:14—And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

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