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[gladtidings]

Islam, Buddism, Hindusim, and etc. are also religions on the uprise that seek to supplant true Christian faith. There are also a lot of other “isms” out there on the move against Christianity. But for those of us who are enlightened, perhaps we should just realize that these forces in the world are directed by “the prince of the Power of the air” and we are not going to stop them; indeed, “it is impossible that offences won't come, but woe unto him through whom they come”. Notice that it was never judiciously determined in the lawful assemblies that Paul and Peter endured (in the book of Acts) that these men spoke out against other religions. The bigger things that men like Paul, Peter, John, James, etc., took issue with was issues regarding the sin of rejecting Jesus The Messiah as Lord (and the gospel of the Kingdom), which leads to living a lifestyle devoid of genuine faith and love.

I agree that there are false teachings in many Christian denominations out there, but once again, perhaps our time would be better spent in getting out there and preaching the gospel, and loving our neighbor, whether they are Muslim, Catholic, Hindu, or New Age.

[gladtidings]

OLD TESTAMENT DEVELOPEMENT OF John 3: CONT'D

I waned to add a another note before we continue: There's a lot other things that the Bible says about being born again in the New Testament. Sometimes, the emphasis is not on regeneration, but rather a “new man” disposition, that is, holy character.

Because of the presence of God's spirit and His Word in the saints, and the effect in a person's life, one could say the the person is “born again” as in I Peter 3: being 'born again”, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God which liveth and abideth forever.” However, the core understanding of what the new birth literally is is first explained by Jesus (not Paul or Peter).

Is the saint of the Church era, that began on the day of Pentacost, born again? Yes, in promise they are, but the literal reality of that concept will not be manifested until the resurrection of the Just. I think too often the Church reads the Bible backwards, and takes the understanding of certain topics (like the new birth) from the New Testament and reads their [assumed] interpretation into the OT without allowing the Hebrew sciptures to define the concept first.

The subject of salvation [and understanding of the new birth] is of the Jews: it's a Judean concept borne out of the Hebrew scriptures : John 4:22: “You worship what you do not know; we [Judeans] worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews [Judeans].

About the hope of the Christian Chruch, Paul speaks in Acts 28:20, that it was “for the hope of Israel” that he was bound in chains.. He wasn't suffering for the hope of flying around on a cloud playing a harp with the angel band. I believe subject of salvation is very vivid [and extemely exciting] for you and me in the church age. We can build ourselves up on it by reading the Old Testament. No longer do we have to wonder what Kingdom of God is about because the Hebrew scriptures develope this concept beautifully. (Ever notice how Jesus never literally says what the Kingdom of God is in the gospels??? (He tells you what it is like, and mkes comparative illustrations to it in the parables. But he didn't have to explain what it was because the Jews knew what it was; they knew the Hebrew scritpures where this concept is first developed.

Anyway, I'm out of time…guess I'll be posting again after the weekend..CHEERS

[gladtidings]

Ezekial 37:11 -14: (CONT'D)

“Then He said to me, “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel; behold, they say, 'Oour bones are dried up and our hope has perished. We are completely cut off.' “Therefore, prophesy ad say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, “Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel. “Then you will know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves and cuased you to come up out of your graves, My people. “I will put My spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, The LORD, have spoken and done it”, declares the LORD. [NASB]

The words “breath” and “spirit” are the same Hebrew word, Ruach, in the text of Ezekial 37:3-10. God breathed His spirit into the flesh of the resurrected bodies. These people were literally, “born of the spirit”.

Spirit is also associated with water in Isaiah 44:3,4: “”For I will pour water on him who is thirsty, And floods on the dry ground. I will pour My spirit on your descendants And My blessing on your offspring. They will spring up among the grass Like willows by the watercourses.”

This section of Isaiah is interesting when you compare it with chapter 66 of the same book: verse 8: “…can the earth be made to bring forth in one day?” “Can a nation be brought forth all at once?”

The imagery of the God's Spirit having the effect of water, that is, of giving life, vitality, and the effect of quickening to the resurrected saints is evident here.

In John3:5 Jesus says: “unless one is born of water and the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Jesus uses the OT imagery of water and spirit to refer to the work of God from above. Also in this section of scripture, Jesus makes reference to wind:

verses 7, 8: “Do not marvel that I said unto you, “you must be born again”, the wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes” So is everyone who is born of the spirit”.

Jews always required signs in order to believe; Jesus is saying that you don't need signs for evidence of this reality. It will be apparent that God, working in His sovereign way, will produce abundant evidence [like the presence of wind] of the working of His spirit even though one cannot ascend up to heaven to ascertain the origins and paths of the spirit. In addition to the words 'breath” & “spirit”, “wind” is also translation of the Hebrew word Ruach. Jesus uses the OT Imagery of “water” and “wind” to refer to the work of God from above.

CONT'D

[gladtidings]

(CONT'D from Pg. 36) OLD TESTAMENT DEVELOPEMENT OF John 3:1-12;

I have some additional insight relating to John 3 that should be shared before moving on.

John 3:3-5: “Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God”. Nicodemas said unto him, 'How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's wound and be born, can he? [NASB]. v5: “Jesus answered, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

As much as I like to insert the words ” born from above” for the words “born again”, I do not think Jesus intended to communicate “form above” to Nicodemas. Jesus was communicating in plain language (and notice Nicodemas' response). The Greek is word ANOTHEN, which can be translated either way. However, when studying the reference texts in the OT [which we will examine shortly], both of these connotations definately exist.

The other point I wanted to make is this: I believe Jesus – the humble man that he was – is treating Nicodemas as a peer, a fellow Rabbi. He is discussing concepts that both of them , as students of the Tanach, Pentateuch, Torah etc., would have had opportunity to discern from reading and meditation. That being said, notice Jesus uses the relative pronoun “one” two times in his new birth descriptions (“unless one is born of water” and “unless one is born again”). This pronoun is directly associated with the word “you” in the phrase: “you must be born again” in verse 7. In other words, Jesus is including himself in the list of those with this kind of need. He doesn't say: “only you, and not me” need to be born again; nor does he say anywhere: “with the exception of The Son of Man, one needs to be born again to see the Kingdom of God.”

I believe Jesus became born again at the time of the resurrection. This came to my mind as I meditated upon several verses in the OT where the event of the new birth is one event, among several others, that happens to the nation during the time period of “the restoration of all things” (Acts 3:21).

Ezekial 36:33-37: “Thus says the LORD GOD, “On the day that I cleanse you from your iniquities, I will cause the cities to be inhabited, and the waste places will be rebuilt. The desolate land will be cultivated instead of being a desolation in the sight of everyone who passes by. “They will say, 'this desolate land has become like the garden of Eden; and the waste, desolate and ruined cities are fortified and inhabited.' “Then the nations that are left round about you will know that I, The LORD, have rebuilt the ruined places and planted that which was desolate; I, the LORD have spoken and will do it.”

Three verses later, we read: Ch 37:3-10 He said to me, “Son of man, can these bones live?” And I answered, “O Lord GOD, You know.” tThen He said to me, “Prophesy over these bones and say to them, 'O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.' “Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones, 'Behold, I will cause breath to enter you that you may come to life. I will put sinews on you, make flesh grow back on you, cover you with skin and put breath in you that you may come allive; and you will know that I am the LORD.'” [It all happened, and in verse 8 we read: “And I looked, and behold, sinews were on them, and flesh grew and skin covered them; but there was no breath in them. v10: So I prophesied as He commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they come to life and stood on their feet, and exceedingly great army.”

[gladtidings]

OLD TESTAMENT DEVELOPEMENT OF JOHN 3:1-12 [CONT'D]

Before examaning Ezekial 37, I thought it might be in order at this point explain how the scriptures portray vivid associations of water and spirit being symbolically related to salvation.

The first miracle God performed for His people after their deliverance from Egypt was to turn bitter water – and therefore undrinkable – into sweet water.  Within a short time span after this, as the nation continued their desert travels, their blight of thirst came upon them again (Exodus 17:1-7)  And once again, God saved His people miraculously with water.

There's a notable ordinance that God instituted right after this first blight of thirst in Exodus 15:22 – 26.  In verse 25 it says:  “There He make a statute and an ordinance for them, and there He tested them and said, 'If you diligently heed the voice of the LORD your God and do what is right in His sight, give ear to His commandments and keep all His statutes, I will put none of the diseases on you which I have brought upon the Egyptians.  For I am the LORD who heals you.”

While it is true, that some of the diseases brought upon Egypt were probably due to God directly afflicting them.  (Like with the “botch of Egypt” = hemmoroids, as well as boils), it is equally true that a good majority of their diseases were brought on as a result of the plagues, by either having unclean water, or having no water at all.  (According to the International Red Cross, most diseases of third world countries are brought on by having unclean water.)

In essence, God is saying, “Look, if you keep my Word (statutes & ordinances), then I will keep you from all those water-borne diseases that came on Egypt.”

The very first Psalm gives some wonderful imagery of water, and its saving, healing, and sustaining qualities.  

In view of these other scriptures, there can be little doubt that the Israelites associated water with salvation:

Isaiah 55:1:  “Ho, everyone who thirsts Come to the Waters; And you who have no money….” v2:  “Why do you spend your money on what is not bread, and your wages for what does not satisfy?  Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good, and let your soul delight itself in abundance [water is included in this abundance – verse 1]”

This section of scritpure addresses God's merciful dealings with Israel's plight in view to two distinct eras.  It was a message of hope both for the immediate need of the Israelite refugees, but it also pointed to a future era of time when God would lavish an abundance upon them that would literally never cost them a dime.  This era of time is during the time of the resurrection, or the time period noted in verse 3 as the time when He will have put His everlasting covenant with them into full effect [verse 3]  “The sure mercies do David”.    CONT'D

[gladtidings]

Dear IM4Truth-

Having considered your objection my posting here, may ask you explain how is it that the topic of the New Birth is unrelated to Biblical covenants???

Isaiah 55:3: “Incline your ear, and come to Me. Hear, and your soul shall live, And I will make an everlasting covenant with you – the sure mercies of David.”

From what I see in the scriptures, “the sure mercies of David” relate to the resurrection of not only David; but also of Jesus Christ under the Davidic Covenant. (Compare l Chronicles 17:10-13 with II Samuel 7:12-16.)

Acts 13:32 – 34: “And we declare to you glad tidings, – that the promise [based on covenant] which was made to the fathers, God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm:

“You are my son, today I have begotten [gave birth to] you. And that HE RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD, no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus: “I will give you the sure mercies of David.” “Therefore, He also says in another Psalm:

“You will not allow your holy one to see corruption.”

[gladtidings]

Hey Mandy!

Yeah, I stole every bit of this info. from the Truth or Tradition site. (Glad Tidings is Pat..Ha! I changed my username.)

Anyway, I'm GLAD your are here, and I'm looking forward to your comments.

[gladtidings]

(Continued from “Truth or Tradition” section “Jesus the name Baptizing” page 4

942 – and all.

The scriptures of the Old Testament beautifully develope the concept of the new birth [or salvation] that Jesus spoke of so often.

In John chapter 3, Jesus expected Nicodemas (who was a Pharisee & teacher of the Law) to understand these concepts as he spoke of them. However, as the record developes, Jesus becomes surprised that Nicodemas had not grasped these truths up unto that point of his career. Certainly, Jesus wouldn't lay an unrealistic expectation on Nicodemas; and in view of the fact that Nicodemas only had the Old Testament scriptures at his disposal, with these scriptures it must be available for us today to glean the truth that Jesus expects one to know about being born of the water and spirit.

OLD TESTAMENT DEVELOPEMENT of John 3:1-12:

In Isaiah 66:5-14, the prophet speaks of a time when Yahweh will judge Israel's ungodly priests and rulers (those who afflicted their own brethren with a prolonged misery). God offers comfort the humble ones who endured this tribulation with a wonderful promise in verses 7 & 8:

'Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. Who has heard such a thing? who has seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in a one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: “shall I cause to bring forth and shut the womb?” saith the LORD.

The birth process described in these verses is rather quick. Evidently, there's no labor pain involved, for the baby comes out before the labor sets in. 'Who has heard of such a thing?” was a good question by the prophet. The point is, a whole nation of people are going to be born in a day; indeed, the earth will bring them forth!

the previous chapters of Isaiah really build up to this birthday of Zion with some wonderful prophecies relating to the regeneration (resurrection) of the nation.

Isaiah 60:19-22: The sun shall no longer be your light by day, Nor for brightness shall the moon give light, but the LORD will be your everlasting light….For the LORD shall be your everlasting light, and the days of your mourning shall be ended.' Also, your people shall be all righteous; They shall inherit the land forever, and branch of My planting, the work of My hands, that I may be glorified.”

Ezekial 37:1-14 (Valley of the dry bones) gives some specific details concerning the new birth. CONT'D

[gladtidings]

(Continued from “Truth or Tradition” section “Jesus the name Baptizing” page 4

942 – and all.

The scriptures of the Old Testament beautifully develope the concept of the new birth [or salvation] that Jesus spoke of so often.

In John chapter 3, Jesus expected Nicodemas (who was a Pharisee & teacher of the Law) to understand these concepts as he spoke of them. However, as the record developes, Jesus becomes surprised that Nicodemas had not grasped these truths up unto that point of his career. Certainly, Jesus wouldn't lay an unrealistic expectation on Nicodemas; and in view of the fact that Nicodemas only had the Old Testament scriptures at his disposal, with these scriptures it must be available for us today to glean the truth that Jesus expects one to know about being born of the water and spirit.

OLD TESTAMENT DEVELOPEMENT of John 3:1-12:

In Isaiah 66:5-14, the prophet speaks of a time when Yahweh will judge Israel's ungodly priests and rulers (those who afflicted their own brethren with a prolonged misery). God offers comfort the humble ones who endured this tribulation with a wonderful promise in verses 7 & 8:

'Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. Who has heard such a thing? who has seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in a one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: “shall I cause to bring forth and shut the womb?” saith the LORD.

The birth process described in these verses is rather quick. Evidently, there's no labor pain involved, for the baby comes out before the labor sets in. 'Who has heard of such a thing?” was a good question by the prophet. The point is, a whole nation of people are going to be born in a day; indeed, the earth will bring them forth!

the previous chapters of Isaiah really build up to this birthday of Zion with some wonderful prophecies relating to the regeneration (resurrection) of the nation.

Isaiah 60:19-22: The sun shall no longer be your light by day, Nor for brightness shall the moon give light, but the LORD will be your everlasting light….For the LORD shall be your everlasting light, and the days of your mourning shall be ended.' Also, your people shall be all righteous; They shall inherit the land forever, and branch of My planting, the work of My hands, that I may be glorified.”

Ezekial 37:1-14 (Valley of the dry bones) gives some specific details concerning the new birth. CONT'D

[gladtidings]

942 & Anybody else interested participating in the recent posts about John chapter 3 (concerning being born again).

WJ has a point…It looks like this post topic has become unrelated to baptism, so, I moving my next few postings over the the “scripture & doctrine section dealing with covenants… Hope to see you there!

[gladtidings]

942 & Anybody else interested participating in the recent posts about John chapter 3 (concerning being born again).

WJ has a point…It looks like this post topic has become unrelated to baptism, so, I moving my next few postings over the the “scripture & doctrine section dealing with covenants… Hope to see you there!

[gladtidings]

A question about interpretation: John Chapter 3.

Jesus fully expected Nicodemas to understand what he was saying about being born again in this section of scripture; in fact, he was surprised that Nicodemas didn't. What did Nicodemas have to go on in order for him to understand the concepts that Jesus was articulating? At that time, I do not think he any of the New Testament books of the Bible that we have today. So, I'm assuming he only thing he had to go on was the writings of the Hebrew scriptures [ called the Old Testament].

On account of this, I wonder if the understanding that Jesus expected Nicodemas to have we also should be able to glean by study and prayerful consideration of the OT? I'm not saying that we shouldn't consult the NT for additional insight, but it seems pretty plain to me that if Jesus expected Nicodemas to know and understand these things according to the revelation of truth found in the Old Testament, perhaps this is the place we should go first in order to understand these concepts.

I believe we can get this understanding, and in my next few posts, I'm going to attempt to explain verses out of Ezekial, Isaiah, and other places that I believe allude to the new birth.

[gladtidings]

Also, bear in mind, even though God has made awesome promises to His people (that is, to Abraham's seed [whether direct descendants, or those who are of faith], it's all by Grace.

On two occassions, the angelic greeting to Mary included that fact that she had found favor with God. The basis of her being encouraged was that “The Lord was with her” which is also equal to the saying: “Thou hast found favor with God” in Luke 1:27-31.

[gladtidings]

Hey Mandy,

I'll be praying for your desire to start or find a fellowship in your area. By theway, I changed my username (as you can see).

942- I've really enjoyed reading and considering your recent posts. Thanks for your insights on John 3 and baptism.

It makes sense in what you are saying about being born of the water, inferring that it is being born of the Word. This concept of the Word being the seed [as you showed in I Peter] is also carried through in the Parable or the Sower:

“the seed is the Word of God. Those by the wayside are those who have heard; then cometh the devil and takes away the word that was sown in their heart…” – Luke 8:11 & ff.

After reading and thinking about John 3 a bit more, some additional insights came to my mind that I thought I'd share with and anyone reading this. I'd like to hear what your take is on this stuff.

In his opening dialogue with Jesus, I think Nicodemas makes an interesting compliment – if not, a high one – to Jesus in saying, “God is with you”. Years ago, I did a study on the significance of this phrase [along with “I am with you, and: “the LORD is with you”]. Basically, I traced its usages back to the book of Genesis beginning with the Abrahamic Covenant (and its passing on to Issac and Jacob). I also traced it throughout other sections of scripture where this phrase is used to encourage Moses, Joshua, the judges, etc. and then on through to the NT. (If you have never done this, I highly recommend taking the time to do it; there's some great insights in understanding what's being implied in this encouraging phrase.)

In essence, this is what I found in this study: Among other the reasons, this phrase provides tremendous encouragement because it is often used in connection with the covenant name of God, Yahweh. When God says, “I am with you”, in essence, what He is saying is that I am with you because I want you to be a partaker of the covenant that I made with Abraham. (I believe that the Jews at this time understood that the Abrahamic Covenant was the very foundation of all the succesive covenants God made with His people .

Included in the substantial list of promises He gave to His people (beginning with the Abrahamic Covenant) is the promise of everlasting life. The first time this promise is made is in Genesis 13:14-17: “Now lift up your eyes and look from the place where you are, northward and southward, and eastward and westward; for all the land which you see, I will give to you [Abraham] and to your descendants forever.”

I think the praise Nicodemas is extending to Jesus is along these lines: “Rabbi [teacher], we know that you are a teacher come from God [you've been enlightened and are a “sent one” , commissioned by God], and have been doing these awesome signs because GOD IS WITH YOU.

Jesus takes this compliment and raises the bar to a truer perspective. In essence, his response is: “unless you are born from above [born again] (which is the greater attainment than merely being one who is commisioned from above), you shall not see the Kingdom of God.”

Note: The term: “Kingdom of God' was understood by the Jews as being this time period when God will plant His people in the geographical area that He pointed out Abraham, so that they will never be removed again. (Jesus wasn't kidding when he said: “The meek will inherit the earth”.)

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