EdJ,

I’m not interested in participating in the debate going on in this thread. I’ll post my input now, but this will be my only post.

Isaiah is a prophetic book, which means it’s Hebrew poetry. All Hebrew poetry is written in bifidic form and in chiasmic form. All prophetic books are like this. As a result, mainstream Christianity hasn’t a clue how to start looking at them and assessing their prophecies. So just about all prophetic beliefs are incorrect and disprovable. I’m not interested in addressing that right now, though. If you’d like to see the bifidic and chiasmic form of Isaiah, a good place to start is here for the bifid form:

Bifids & Chiasms – Ellis Skolfield

It’ll show the bifidic and chiasmic form of Isaiah, Daniel, and Revelation. That’s where I start first when I want the broad meaning of the chapters I’m reading in. Next, I get more specific with the chiasms. Here’s a link to show Isaiah’s chiasms:

Literary Structure of Isaiah (Chiasms)

You’ll notice that the bifid structure of the book gives you the chapters toward the end of Isaiah that mirror those from the beginning. So one must read the mirroring chapters to get a better understanding of the early chapters. In this case, chapters 13-23 are about Gentile nations, and chapters 46-48 mirror those chapters and are also about the Gentile nations. In the Chiasms, you’ll see the more specific subjects grouped together.

That should help your study a little.

As for Isaiah Ch 14, it starts with Jacob being freed from Babylon. Then it says Israel will proceed to taunt the King of Babylon. So vs 4-21 are the taunt. Here’s the key part:

Isaiah 14:15-20

But you are brought down to Sheol,

<span class=”indent-1″><span class=”indent-1-breaks”>    </span><span class=”text Isa-14-15″>to the far reaches of the pit.</span></span>
<span id=”en-ESV-17945″ class=”text Isa-14-16″><sup class=”versenum”>16 </sup>Those who see you will stare at you</span>
<span class=”indent-1″><span class=”indent-1-breaks”>    </span><span class=”text Isa-14-16″>and ponder over you:</span></span>
<span class=”text Isa-14-16″>‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble,</span>
<span class=”indent-1″><span class=”indent-1-breaks”>    </span><span class=”text Isa-14-16″>who shook kingdoms,</span></span>
<span id=”en-ESV-17946″ class=”text Isa-14-17″><sup class=”versenum”>17 </sup>who made the world like a desert</span>
<span class=”indent-1″><span class=”indent-1-breaks”>    </span><span class=”text Isa-14-17″>and overthrew its cities,</span></span>
<span class=”indent-1″><span class=”indent-1-breaks”>    </span><span class=”text Isa-14-17″>who did not let his prisoners go home?’</span></span>
<span id=”en-ESV-17947″ class=”text Isa-14-18″><sup class=”versenum”>18 </sup>All the kings of the nations lie in glory,</span>
<span class=”indent-1″><span class=”indent-1-breaks”>    </span><span class=”text Isa-14-18″>each in his own tomb;<sup class=”footnote” style=”box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;” data-fn=”#fen-ESV-17947d” data-link=””></sup></span></span>
<span id=”en-ESV-17948″ class=”text Isa-14-19″><sup class=”versenum”>19 </sup>but you are cast out, away from your grave,</span>
<span class=”indent-1″><span class=”indent-1-breaks”>    </span><span class=”text Isa-14-19″>like a loathed branch,</span></span>
<span class=”text Isa-14-19″>clothed with the slain, those pierced by the sword,</span>
<span class=”indent-1″><span class=”indent-1-breaks”>    </span><span class=”text Isa-14-19″>who go down to the stones of the pit,</span></span>
<span class=”indent-1″><span class=”indent-1-breaks”>    </span><span class=”text Isa-14-19″>like a dead body trampled underfoot.</span></span>
<span id=”en-ESV-17949″ class=”text Isa-14-20″><sup class=”versenum”>20 </sup>You will not be joined with them in burial,</span>
<span class=”indent-1″><span class=”indent-1-breaks”>    </span><span class=”text Isa-14-20″>because you have destroyed your land,</span></span>
<span class=”indent-1″><span class=”indent-1-breaks”>    </span><span class=”text Isa-14-20″>you have slain your people.</span></span>

It says the kings of the nations lie in glory, each in his own tomb–earlier it says they’re in “sheol” (Sheol is not necessarily a bad thing to the Ancient Hebrews–it literally means the “unseen,” but refers to death in general, not necessarily hell). These kings are saying to the king of Babylon that he has come down to death just like them and he’s just as weak as they are now. So, instead of residing on the earth, the king is in the realm of death. However, it says the king will not be joined in death with the his people or the other kings because of the atrocities he committed. It sounds like he’ll be judged rather than rest in peace with the other kings. The branch of Jesse is Jesus and the line of David. But this king’s branch is cast off. Remember Hebrews talking about how we shouldn’t think too highly of ourselves because just as we were grafted into the natural olive tree, we can just as easily be cast off? That’s the type of casting off this branch is talking about with the king of Babylon. The cast-off branches are burned. So it’s saying this king is going to go through purification in hell for what he’s done, because apparently, he’s resistant to God.

If you ask a Jew today what these verses mean, they’ll tell you that they’re talking about the king of Babylon. And they may well be correct. They do not believe they’re talking about Satan, because Satan is a Western religion idea. Satan just means “the adversary.” He’s spoken of as a man, sometimes, or an “individual,” but that’s common in Hebrew writings. It’s just figurative. They believe all demons are “the enemy,” and that there is not one specific one called “Lucifer” or anything like that. I tend to side with them regarding demons–I don’t think there is a singular “Lucifer” that rules all of the demons. Ezekiel 25 has a prophecy that sounds like it’s talking about Satan, but again, when you ask a Jew about that prophecy, he says it’s about demons in general. It’s only confusing to us because we don’t understand Hebrew poetry, sayings, and metaphor very well. Therefore, I can’t be certain exactly who the king of Babylon represents.

I can be sure that the king of Babylon does not represent the futurist idea of the antichrist. The only place the antichrist is mentioned by name is in 1 John 2:18, 1 John 2:22, 1 John 4:3, and 2 John 1:7. There’s no way someone can honestly read those verses with an open mind and say that the antichrist is a single person. Those verses clearly state that the antichrist is a spirit, and that anyone who denies Christ is the son of God is an antichrist. Those verses show how there are many spirits of antichrist. Everything else about “he” or “him” that people think is the antichrist are just people’s misunderstanding of prophecy. Again, I don’t want to get into prophecy–the subject is too broad to discuss. I might be willing to post a little about it in a new thread or two, but I will not reply about it once I post. The subject is too controversial and too time consuming. Moving on…

Overall, this bifid section of Isaiah is talking about how the oppressors of Israel being cast down. If you look at the mirroring chapters of the bifid (Isaiah 46-48), the subjects are as follows:

Chapter 46 – The Idols of Babylon and the one true God

Chapter 47 – The Humiliation (humbling) of Babylon (humbling is a very good and helpful thing, but it is not pleasant)

Chapter 48 a) Israel Refined for God’s Glory

Chapter 48 b) The Lord’s Call to Israel

The subject matter of those is all about Babylon. Is it about the future Mystery Babylon? That’s hard to say since I haven’t studied this stuff in a while. It’s difficult to tell, sometimes, without a lot of study and structuring work. So, I’d say Isaiah 14:19-20 is mirroring Isaiah 46-48 regarding Babylon’s humbling and Israel’s refinement.

Most importantly, what does it matter? If someone is right and someone is wrong about this, what value does it truly make in your life right now? Will it give you a good feeling to be right? Good for you. Have fun with that momentary feeling. I’m not concerned with feeling good. Personally, I’m concerned with experiencing God directly. I have much better discernment of truth when I’m more connected with Him. And that takes a lot of emotional work. It’s a daily thing that must be consistent. If any of you ever get tired of debating and want to do some emotional work to get closer to God so you’ll have better insight from Him, I recommend The Presence Process (Second/Revised Edition) by Michael Brown. I’ve found no better way than that book to “work out my salvation” (mature my heart to connect with God).

This is my one and only post in this thread. Good luck with your conversation. Maybe something I’ve added will help a little.