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[Catholic Apologist]

Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 20 2010,13:29)

Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 20 2010,05:30) Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 20 2010,04:05) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 20 2010,03:55) Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 19 2010,11:39) This is Paul writing to Timothy, and in so doing, mentioned the fact that only God is immortal, that no man has seen; if Jesus was God, this verse would not be here. Georg Well lets see, Paul wrote 1 Tim 6:16 long after Jesus Glorification! Are you saying that Jesus is not “Immortal”? Blessings WJ WJ The subject of this debate is, who is our savior? Yes, I believe Jesus now has immortality. Jhn 5:26   For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;   But he did not have it when he was here on earth, and died for us, how could he have died if he was immortal then? Georg There is no debate on who Is our Savior. The apostle John said that the “Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world” (1 John 4:14) “And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.” John said that “we have SEEN and TESTIFY that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.” The apostles didn't “debate” it. They TESTIFIED that Jesus is the Savior of the world. Where does Georg get off debating it? This is why I could never consider anti-trinitarianism. They always end up denying that Jesus is our Savior. thinker thinker There is no debating, not with some one that despises truth. Pro 14:7   Go from the presence of a foolish man, when thou perceivest not in him the lips of knowledge.   Georg

So I guess we should all leave you, Georg!

[Catholic Apologist]

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 27 2010,12:48)

Hi CA: You say: Quote 2.  You DENY the existence of a real, physical, tangible, authoritative Church with power to teach the faith, excommunicate the heretic, ordain bishops and deacons, and shepherd the faithful. I don't deny this, but I do deny that the true church is the Catholic church. Love in Christ, Marty

So where is the authoritative Church we take our disputes as in Matt 18?

In your view?

[Catholic Apologist]

Let's get back on topic.

Do any of you say that the Church is merely invisible?

[Catholic Apologist]

Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 26 2010,04:58)

Quote (mikeangel @ Feb. 25 2010,22:26) Catholic apologist, So I guess the individual who is molested by a priest horrr-ibly that leaves the church out of trama is lost from leaving the church? Also you never answered my post in “invisible church” thread about the secrets and rituals in the k of c, or good friday” cross lie “ Yes, a person who is molested by a priest commits the sin of apostasy if they leave willfully.  This is a grave sin.   Answer me this. Was it Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist who did the molesting?  God forbid and a thousand times NO! So why would a molested person remove themself from the source of life because of someone who HAS? In the Church is the grace of God.  Outside the Church is damnation. If you do not answer me this rightly, I will know who's you are.

mikeangel? Your answer?

[Catholic Apologist]

Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 26 2010,11:43)

Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 26 2010,05:04) Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 18 2010,13:34) Alright children Now listen up, to become a child of Abraham is, now pay attention, is NOT MEANT LITTERAL, it is meant in a “spiritual sense”; you got that? you all know what is meant by, SPIRITUAL? it means, not real!!! Georg You asked for it, Georg.  If you look above, you will notice you said: “Now listen up, to become a child of Abraham is, now pay attention, is NOT MEANT LITTERAL, it is meant in a “spiritual sense”; you got that? you all know what is meant by, SPIRITUAL? it means, not real!!!” THAT is where you said if something is spiritual it is not real.  Please tell me, do you have a bad memory or are you a liar? CA Are you pretending to be so dumb, or are you faking it? When I said not real I meant not his real, flesh and blood, children. Georg Ps, that goes for Nick too.

I refuse to insult you in return.

However, I will ask others to see the inconsistency in Georg's statement. I think we can all see what he really did say.

[Catholic Apologist]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 26 2010,08:37)

Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 25 2010,12:42) Look, you may THINK you are Catholic.  But you sound an awful lot like a Protestant. When you go and start making statements like this: “No one can judge me.” You prove that you have not been properly catechized.  I'm sure you don't realize it, but you are scandalous in your behavior.  You say things like: “There are many traditions that have no basis in scripture.” If you WERE Catholic, you would know that not all apostolic traditions are in Scripture.  (Lent for example) To everyone else: Either this guy is a deceiver and is NOT Catholic at all.  OR even worse, he is a CINO (Catholic in name only) and doesn't know his faith. CA Once upon a time you were Protestant. Do you think God judged you like you do others that are not part of the CC? Blessings WJ

I will point you to St. Paul. Once upon a time he was the Pharisee of pharisees. He was under the law and persecuted the Church.

But he did this in ignorance and unbelief. If he had died in an unbelieving state, what would have happened to him?

Good question.

We don't know. But as I have said before, I believe God is merciful especially due to our ignorance.

[Catholic Apologist]

Quote (mikeangel @ Feb. 26 2010,07:24)

CA , you never did answer any of the things in that statement. But first let me say this, As God lives I have been Catholic from birth, I just know and thank God that no man will judge me, God himself will. I have been blessed with knowing some great priest, and cursed with knowing some mean ones. The one I have now doesn't have much compassion, he chastises people during mass openly and out loud.People have left because of him. What about them? What about the guy who was sexually abused? What about the cross veneration ? Are you ever going to stop dodgeing direct questions? It it easier to justify yourself by condemning others because they are not Catholic? What about all the secrets and rituals in the Kof C?  Answer the questions please and stop  side stepping. I left the K of C but if you want to me to prove I am Catholic I could start with telling you the “secrets” of the first degree.  Would that help? I just think that selfrightious Catholics like you give the rest of us meek and humble ones a bad name. May God forgive YOU. Godbless.

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you never did answer any of the things in that statement.

Just don't have endless time and there are a lot of folks here. Sorry about that.

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But first let me say this, As God lives I have been Catholic from birth, I just know and thank God that no man will judge me, God himself will.

Ultimately, yes I will not be sitting in judgment over you when the books are opened. That will be our King Jesus.

But I can “judge” what you say as being either true or false.

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The one I have now doesn't have much compassion, he chastises people during mass openly and out loud.People have left because of him.

People “left” because of Jesus. But you're OK with him, right? Here's a Scripture for you to chew on:

“One of them a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are always liars, evil beasts, slothful bellies. This testimony is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;” – Titus 1:12,13

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What about them?

So you think no one should ever be offended by what is preached? Have you EVER read our history?

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What about the guy who was sexually abused?

Sexual abuse is always scandalous. Removing oneself from the Eucharist is also scandalous.

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What about the cross veneration ?

Go look up the word “venerate”. What about cross veneration. What is wrong?

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It it easier to justify yourself by condemning others because they are not Catholic?

I do not do this.

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What about all the secrets and rituals in the Kof C?

What about them? I have never been involved in that. If they are doing something heretical it should be condemned. But the KofC does not equal the Church.

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I just think that selfrightious Catholics like you give the rest of us meek and humble ones a bad name.

Pointing out error and hypocrisy is not self righteousness. Please point out ONE self righteous statement I have made. Please use quotes.

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May God forgive YOU.

Yes. May God forgive me. I am a sinner. I need forgiveness.

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Godbless.

May God bless you as well.

[Catholic Apologist]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 22 2010,17:05)

Hi CA, I agree with Georg about people calling younger ones child, son, sonny, little missy, etc.  Just a figure of speech.  As for Paul saying “I became your father through the gospel”, I think he was correcting the congregation as a father would his children.  He didn't tell them to call him father.  He didn't say, “Father is my new title in the church”. Do you think this one sentence out of thousands Paul wrote is the basis for your church's hierarchy?   And yes I call my male parent father sometimes, but more often dad.  Do you really think that was what Jesus was talking about?  Or do you think it was more like I posted before? peace and love, mike

So did Peter under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit err when he called the early Jewish spiritual leaders “fathers”?

[Catholic Apologist]

Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 22 2010,16:31)

CA Have you ever said to a child, not your own child, son? Paul, and the other apostles may have referred to other younger followers as son, but did these ever call the apostles father? And why should my son not call me dad or father? do you know the definition of father: “He who gives life to the son”. Why do you thing Jesus calls his Father, Father? because he received “life” from him. Father, is an authority figure, and that is what the Catholic church is all about, authority. Georg

Did St. Paul ever “beget” anyone in or according to the Gospel?

Have you ever said to a child, not your own child, son?

Jesus didn't say, “You can call your earthly father “father”, that's OK. I'm not talking about THAT”. Did He?

You are cherry picking again.

[Catholic Apologist]

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 22 2010,17:53)

And by the way, I am not being critical.  My desire is God's very best for every individual, and I pray that we may come into unity as the body of Christ, and teach the Word of God in truth. Love in Christ, Marty

So long as everyone agrees with the “Marty version” of Christianity.

Right. I got it.

[Catholic Apologist]

Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 22 2010,16:57)

CA I had steam coming out of my computer reading your post. I never said Constantine “started” the church, in fact I did say, he had persecuted the Christians and the Jews. Did I not say that Peter was executed in Rome? along with Paul? What evidence do you have that your church was called “Catholic” (universal), before Constantine. You ask, could successors be so wrong, so early? Gal 1:6 ¶ I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:    Gal 1:7   Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. I say, that depends on the successor. 1Ti 6:3 ¶ If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;   1Ti 6:4   He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,   1Ti 6:5   Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.   1Ti 6:6   But godliness with contentment is great gain.   1Ti 6:7   For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.   1Ti 6:8   And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.   1Ti 6:9   But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.   1Ti 6:10   For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.   Do you think the Catholic clergy has even read these scriptures? Where do you think I got all those fraudulent facts from? Georg

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I had steam coming out of my computer reading your post.

The wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God

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What evidence do you have that your church was called “Catholic” (universal), before Constantine.

“Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the catholic Church. It is not lawful to baptize or give communion without the consent of the bishop. On the other hand, whatever has his approval is pleasing to God. Thus, whatever is done will be safe and valid.” — St. Ignatius of Antioch written probably AD 98 to 117 (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 8)

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Do you think the Catholic clergy has even read these scriptures?

Of course. The Galatian churches were under St. Paul at this time. So was he speaking of his own unorthodoxy? Hardly. Your argument fails miserably.

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Where do you think I got all those fraudulent facts from?

My guess is:

A. Some conspiracy website void of fact and full of fancy

or

B. Armstrong's own imagination

[Catholic Apologist]

Quote (princess of the king @ Feb. 23 2010,13:45)

CA, leave your vodoo at the door, the next time you come in, your witchcraft is testing my patience.

Goliath was a mocker and a blasphemer too

[Catholic Apologist]

Quote (princess of the king @ Feb. 23 2010,13:40)

Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 22 2010,15:29) Quote (princess of the king @ Feb. 20 2010,13:53) Quote The Church is stable no it is not CA, why would you stand behind this you know it is a lie. your church is falling down all around you. you say you are nothing, how wrong you are. you say you are are unstable, then why do you preach.   break free CA. Get thee behind me, Satan! and the sons of Israel do covertly things that are not right against Jehovah their God, and build for them high places in all their cities, from a tower of the watchers unto the fenced city, and set up for them standing-pillars and shrines on every high height, and under every green tree, and make perfume there in all high places like the nations that Jehovah removed from their presence, and do evil things to provoke Jehovah,

Rebellious Korah is your father

[Catholic Apologist]

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 24 2010,13:45)

Hi CA: It is what Jesus did in his flesh body that matters in that he obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross, and it also what we do as his disciples in his body in obedience to the Word of God that matters.  We should partake of the Eucharist, but no, I will have to disagree with the Catholic church on this subject. Love in Christ, Marty

So you throw your lot in with Christ rejecting Jews and refuse to eat the passover lamb…

[Catholic Apologist]

Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 26 2010,13:35)

Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 26 2010,05:14) Quote (david @ Feb. 22 2010,17:34) I'm just going to go find that scripture where Peter says we should venerate Mary.  Oh, wait, Peter never mentioned Mary at all.  I guess that scripture doesn't exist. Well, Paul wrote a whole lot.  I know he must have said we should venerate Mary.  hmmm.  He doesn't seem to even mention her by name.  He refers to her as “a woman.”—Gal. 4:4. How many books did Paul write?  And nowhere do we find him urging us to “venerate Mary”?  I guess not, since he doesn't even speak of “Mary.” Where Peter and Paul “true” Christians?  Can we learn anything from them? O yeah…um…let me see You can't even substantiate WHERE the Bible came from or what books belong in it. But… Maybe the rest of the forum should see what YOU know about your wacky cult: CA Let me just say this; his cult has more truth then yours. Georg

Georg,

Why am I not surprised to see you siding with the JW's?

You are two peas in a pod.

You know…inconsistencies and all…

[Catholic Apologist]

Quote (Cindy @ Feb. 17 2009,15:36)

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 17 2009,14:45) Hi Nick: Quote Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.   I still believe that God is with Him. He was Babtized the same day I was. We received the Holy Spirit, by the Minister laying hands on us all, one by one. Peace and Love Irene

Irene,

You should stop being a “Georg-ian” and convert to “Christian”.

[Catholic Apologist]

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 22 2010,16:13)

Hi CA, Would you mind telling me what it is you believe that I have claimed regarding the origin of the NT scriptures?

Certainly.

It is obvious that you cannot substantiate for certain WHAT books belong in Sacred Scripture. For example, how do you KNOW Philemon belongs in Scripture?

When was the Canon of Scripture defined? For what purpose?

If you could answer these questions, you would have to admit fault and become Catholic.

[Catholic Apologist]

Quote (david @ Feb. 24 2010,17:01)

Quote CA, Thanks for providing the abundance of contradictory statements in the Watch Tower. Now we know where David gets it from. Thinker, find one instance where I contradict myself.  (Please don't make one up.)  Quotes would be nice.   Catholic apologist, you did this before a few times and I think once for this exact topic.  I understand your predicament.  You have no actual response on topic, no argument against clear scripture.  You are as a child who calls names when backed into a corner.  My next question is:  Don't you think that when you ignore clear statements and instead try to divert attention, that it is obvious you have no scriptural backing? I would like you to prove me wrong.  So I will ask these things again. The earliest Christians did not seem to worship her or hold her up on a pedestal as so many do today.

I understand YOUR predicament. You can't refute the faith, so you set up a straw man so you can knock it down.

We don't worship Mary.

I reject your premise.

As for Paul's non-mention of Mary, you have a faulty view of Scripture. Scripture was not intended to be a comprehensive catechesis book to find out everything you want to know about the faith.

That is what the Church was and is for.

Get in the ark of safety before it is too late.

[Catholic Apologist]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 24 2010,13:30)

Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 23 2010,06:14) CA, Thanks for providing the abundance of contradictory statements in the Watch Tower. Now we know where David gets it from. thinker Hi All, Most of my family is Jehovah's Witnesses.  I'm not because I don't agree with some of their interpretation of Scripture.  But they will be the first ones to say that they have changed their views in light of more research or new facts. Which is better:  To find out you've been doing it wrong and change, or to find out you've been doing it wrong and keep holding on to those wrong beliefs?   And in defense of those wrong beliefs, the Catholics have basically stated that, because their church is so “holy and right”, it takes precedent over the Bible.   Bottom line is that it should all be about what the Word of God teaches, not about a “religion” or man-made traditions.  IMO peace and love mike

In other words…

he prefers the anarchy of Sola Scriptura

[Catholic Apologist]

Quote (david @ Feb. 22 2010,17:34)

I'm just going to go find that scripture where Peter says we should venerate Mary.  Oh, wait, Peter never mentioned Mary at all.  I guess that scripture doesn't exist. Well, Paul wrote a whole lot.  I know he must have said we should venerate Mary.  hmmm.  He doesn't seem to even mention her by name.  He refers to her as “a woman.”—Gal. 4:4. How many books did Paul write?  And nowhere do we find him urging us to “venerate Mary”?  I guess not, since he doesn't even speak of “Mary.” Where Peter and Paul “true” Christians?  Can we learn anything from them?

O yeah…um…let me see

You can't even substantiate WHERE the Bible came from or what books belong in it.

But…

Maybe the rest of the forum should see what YOU know about your wacky cult:

Furthermore, not only do we find that people cannot see the Divine Plan in studying the Bible by itself, but we see, also, that if anyone lays the Scripture Studies aside, even after he has used them, after he has become familiar with them, after he has read them for ten years – if he lays them aside and ignores them and goes to the Bible alone, though he has understood his Bible for ten years, our experience shows that within two years he goes into darkness. On the other hand, if he had merely read the Scripture Studies with their references, and had not read a page of the Bible, as such, he would be in the light at the end of the two years, because he would have the light of the Scriptures. (The Watchtower; 9/15/1910; pp. 298)

But if each of us were left to himself just because he has a copy of the Bible and were to direct his movements independently as he thought he understood the Word, what? It is likely, or possible, that there would be a great deal of confusion or working in competition among us. Hence, besides individually possessing God’s Word, we need a theocratic organization. Yes, besides having God’s spirit of illumination, a Christian needs Jehovah’s theocratic organization in order to understand the Bible. (The Watchtower; 6/15/1951; pp. 375)

The world is full of Bibles, which Book contains the commandments of God. Why, then, do the people not know which way to go? Because they do not also have the teaching or law of the mother, which is light. Jehovah God has provided his holy written Word for all mankind and it contains all the information that is needed for men in taking a course leading to life. But God has not arranged for that Word to speak independently or to shine forth life-giving truths by itself. His Word says: “Light is sown for the righteous.” (Ps. 97:11) It is through his organization that God provides this light that the proverb says is the teaching or law of the mother. If we are to walk in the light of truth we must recognize not only Jehovah God as our Father but his organization as our mother. (The Watchtower; 5/1/1957; pp. 274)

Thus the Bible is an organizational book and belongs to the Christian congregation as an organization, not to individuals, regardless of how sincerely they may believe that they can interpret the Bible. For this reason the Bible cannot be properly understood without Jehovah’s visible organization in mind. (The Watchtower; 10/1/1967; pp. 587)

Only this organization functions for Jehovah’s purpose and to his praise. To it alone God’s Sacred Word, the Bible, is not a sealed book. (The Watchtower; 7/1/1973; pp. 402)

They say that it is sufficient to read the Bible exclusively, either alone or in small groups at home. But, strangely, through such ‘Bible reading,’ they have reverted right back to the apostate doctrines that commentaries by Christendom’s clergy were teaching 100 years ago,… (The Watchtower; 8/15/1981; pp. 29)

No matter where we may live on earth, God’s Word continues to serve as a light to our path and a lamp to our roadway as to our conduct and beliefs. (Ps. 119:105) But Jehovah God has also provided his visible organization, his “faithful and discreet slave,” made up of spirit anointed ones, to help Christians in all nations to understand and apply properly the Bible in their lives. Unless we are in touch with this channel of communication that God is using, we will not progress along the road to life, no matter how much Bible reading we do. (The Watchtower; 12/1/1981; pp. 27)

We have the opportunity to show love for our brothers who take the lead in the congregation or in connection with Jehovah’s visible organization worldwide. This includes being loyal to “the faithful and discreet slave.” (Matthew 24:45-47) Let us face the fact that no matter how much Bible reading we have done, we would never have learned the truth on our own. (The Watchtower; 12/1/1990; pp. 19)

Channel to understanding the Bible… All who want to understand the Bible should appreciate that the “greatly diversified wisdom of God” can become known only through Jehovah’s channel of communication, the faithful and discreet slave. (The Watchtower; 10/1/1994; pp. 8)

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