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[ashermoshehthreepointonefour]

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[ashermoshehthreepointonefour]

Quote (chosenone @ Mar. 01 2010,15:24)

Quote (ashermoshehthreepointonefour @ Mar. 01 2010,02:58) May our Father in Heaven shine His Light upon us and guide us! Moshiach NOW! He (God), has, and is now doing so.   Eph.1:11  …according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,   Notice, “operating all”, not just some, but “ALL”. Blessings.

Ok… its just a figure of expression to say that when its a holiday or if you're seeing someone off and things like that…. But, thanks for the scripture.

[ashermoshehthreepointonefour]

May our Father in Heaven shine His Light upon us and guide us! Moshiach NOW!

[ashermoshehthreepointonefour]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 15 2010,08:45)

Hi ASH, Grace and peace came through Jesus Christ. He was made for men the fountain of that Spirit of life[Jn7] Before Christ only the prophets were anointed with that empowering and enabling Spirit.[1Peter1] The prophets all pointed towards the coming of the anointed one of God in whom salvation is found.

Hello,.

Yes Chen (Grace), Shalom (Peace) and Ruach (Spirit) are elements of the Torah. The Messiah coming by these elements were the upper levels of the Torah.

Paul, who was a Pharisee, heavily trained in this, wrote many things regarding these different levels of Torah. The Spirit of Torah, the Torah of Faith, the Torah of Love, The Torah of Liberty, the Torah of Works, etc etc…

1 Peter 1 does not really say what you're implying. That passage is concerning salvation, and how the Prophets prophecized the Messiah and taught about the grace that was coming with the Messiah. The passage says they searched with dilligence. It explains that the Spirit of Messiah in them was alluding to the passion of Messiah, etc. The entire passage says nothing about only the Prophets being anointed with Spirit. The Spirit was always there.

[ashermoshehthreepointonefour]

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 15 2010,10:47)

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 29 2010,09:13) ashermoshehthreepointonefour,Jan. wrote: the topic of this thread The six days of creation: age of the universe -> Scripture & Biblical Doctrine Hi Asher, I have a few questions for you; why do you just ignore them? (THIRD time posted) 1) How does the expansion of space equate to the slowing of time? 2) And if so how can it be calculated? 3) What is this word [kElah] mean? God bless Ed J http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

HI,

I apologize, I honestly did not even realize that you were posting this three times. I just saw this now, I am truly sorry about that. I didnt know. Anyway….

1. universal expansion manipulates time
2. scientists record data that indicates that time is different in different positions in space. they base their calculations on that data.
3. kElah is one of the names of HaShem, the “k” is used when writing a name of G-d, take the “k” away, thats one of the Names. “kElah is the short form of the majestic Elokim.

G-d Bless you as well
ash

[ashermoshehthreepointonefour]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 15 2010,07:04)

Hi ASH, Folk always prefer old wine. More understanding and experience gives men comfort. Walking in the Spirit is far too scary for most as control is by God and not ourselves.

Hi,

But walking in the Spirit is the essence of Judaism. It doesnt disagree with what you are saying.

[ashermoshehthreepointonefour]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 15 2010,07:14)

Hi ASH, He was a jew sent to the jews and he taught them much about their jewish Law. But he came to show a better way. He perfectly fulfilled all the demands of the Law and all who join themselves with him by water and the Spirit can enjoy all the benefits he won in so doing.

This would contradict the scriptures, as it was G-d Himself who gave the Torah, and He called it perfect and that it would be everlasting. There is no way that the Messiah would come to tell people that G-d was wrong about His Law.

The prophecies regarding the Messiah show that the Messiah would teach Torah to the world, even to the Nations. If Yeshua did not do this, and claimed to teach a “better way” that would disqualify him from being the Messiah.

Yeshua stated that the Torah would be in full effect until the heaven and earth pass away, this has not occurred yet. His fulfilling the Torah, is an obligation of every man.

The Bible states, that if any one teaches against the Torah, or to follow another way, is a false prophet. If Yeshua did do this, it would falsify his claim as Messiah and would render him a false prophet.

Clearly this cannot be.

[ashermoshehthreepointonefour]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 15 2010,07:06)

Hi ASH, There is no longer Jew nor gentile but only Christ. Other allegiences matter not a whit.

In terms of the oneness of Israel (Jew and Noachide) you are correct. However, there is still Jew and Gentile just as there are still male and females.

And the Messiah is still a Jewish concept, which lends credence to the scripture stating that the New Covenant is with Israel and Judah only, the Gentiles grafted in was a conversion into Israel, not into a new nation or a new religion or doctrine. All those things stay the same, the only thing new, is the rebirth of a man/woman through the conversion of the heart.

That is what being born again means, that a person who converts has become a new being, a renewed soul has been instated for that person.

The world was created for Israel's sake, at the deepest level, all is Israel. The Messiah is the head.

[ashermoshehthreepointonefour]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 15 2010,06:59)

Hi ASH, Christ is the reality and rebirth into this perfected Jewish man fulfills for us the requirements for inheriting all the promises made to Abraham.

Im not sure what you are saying. Can you rephrase and clarify?

[ashermoshehthreepointonefour]

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 15 2010,06:09)

ASHER you right but it as to be relevant truth

All truth is relevant. When a story is changed or altered, or important factors are left out, it creates confusion and disarray. One should be alarmed if these things happen, and ask themselves why, if irrelevant, would these truths need to be kept from others, or altered and manipulated? If it was not a big deal why did they do it? It should raise concern, as deception is like an angel of light, it appears to be all sweet and dandy, but when getting to the crux of the matter is nothing but fluff. G-d does not appreciate fluff, G-d is a G-d of truth and nothing but the whole truth.

[ashermoshehthreepointonefour]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 15 2010,05:23)

Hi ASH, The synagogue of satan still attempts to undermine the work of God's Spirit in Christ and the apostles.

Very true…. the synagogue of satan is revealed by a particular line, indicating that the synagogue says they are Jews but are not, and force the people to eat things sacrificed to idols. Can you guess what group this might be?

[ashermoshehthreepointonefour]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 15 2010,05:19)

HiASH, James defines religion differently. Faith is in God and His promises, not the traditions of men. Our hope has been been bound to religious observances.

The traditions of men are things like Christmas, Easter, Sunday Sabbath, Halloween, etc… not the Oral Torah traditions that came from Sinai. It is important to realize that The Apostles were not only in opposition to the corrupted doctrines of the corrupted Jewish religious leaders, but also of the Hellenistic Pagan influences that were coming out of the Greco-Roman factions. The commandments that G-d gave, cannot be equated with traditions of men.

[ashermoshehthreepointonefour]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 12 2010,11:44)

Hi ASH, Are you a Jew still reliant on the law for salvation? If so Jesus discussed such matters with the jews of his time. But the rich young man[mt19] wanted more and was offered the way of Jesus. It is a better way

Hi Nick,

Judaism never relied on Torah observance as the means for salvation, it was always about faith. But faith without works is empty and dead, therefore Torah observance is what follows Faith.

Yeshua was addressing the manipulation of the corrupted religious leaders who were posing a different scenario to the people. He was not changing the system, he was upholding it by opposing the corruptions.

[ashermoshehthreepointonefour]

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 15 2010,04:52)

asher thanks for your explanation,but does it really matters who is who at this point ,Jesus was killed as foretold by the scriptures hundreds of  years before,it fulfills God plan,and proceeding to the final act. the question is more are we part of the plan or are we fighting against it ?? you know i do not take verses out of context ,i know the scriptures were no written with verses, and it is important to understand God view to the whole scriptures old and new,because the old produced the new Testament.

Hi T.

It does matter in very great way. The truth needs to be told like it happened, and when people manipulate the truth and teach a skewed perspective of the truth, it can lead one down the wrong path. We are first hand witnesses to that today, as it has been almost 2,000 years of false doctrine and truth manipulation that has given well-intented believers the wrong picture of what went on in those times. G-d does not leave anything to chance, and He leaves minute details for us to gather to derrive the truth itself. There are just way too many facts that prove this to be true. And this deception was prophecized in the scriptures, but many have yet to realize it.

[ashermoshehthreepointonefour]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 15 2010,04:50)

Hi ASH, True Israel is of faith and not religion.

Hi Nick,

No matter how we slice, we are all subject to our own perspectives, as we each accept a system of beliefs… therefore there is no way to escape the fact that each one of us, have a religion. Religion is a system of beliefs.

Faith is what brings us to believe what we believe, but one can have faith in something and be utterly wrong about what they have faith in.

[ashermoshehthreepointonefour]

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 11 2010,14:18)

Quote (ashermoshehthreepointonefour @ Jan. 29 2010,01:55) There is no need for a Jew to convert when they are already within the camp. Peace and Love, Ash Hi Asher, John 14:1: Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. ([יהשוע המשיח] YÄ-shü-ă hä-Mäh-shē-äkh!) Romans 11:7-32 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20: Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. Gal:3:28: There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Witnessing to the world in behalf of… יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm! (Psalm 45:17) Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

HI,

The Romans passage is what I was referring to.

In Galatians, we have consider the context. There are still female and male, still slave and free, so there is still Jew and Gentile,

[ashermoshehthreepointonefour]

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 11 2010,13:27)

Hi Asher: Those Torah observant Jews who do not believe with be judged by the Law in the day of judgment.  Many will will believe in this last day when the Gentile church comes to maturity, and doctrines such as the “trinity” are corrected.  Many are believing now, but it is difficult for anyone to believe when there is so much division in the body of Christ. All of Israel will be saved.  That Israel from the Nation of Israel and that Israel that is from the Gentile nations. Again, it is my desire that all will be saved. Love in Christ, Marty

Hi…

Paul himself said that G-d Himself has blinded the Jews, and that G-d will not lift the veil of blindness UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles come in. This is a prophecy.

If G-d Himself blinded them, and if He states and Paul states that this blindness will be in effect UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles come in, that specifically means that when the fullness of the Gentiles come in, then G-d will lift the veil and the Jew will SEE.

G-d's prophecies do not go unfulfilled, it is clearly stating in the texts that the Jews will be saved.

You are right about the false doctrines of Christianity need correction, as there is a massive influx of heretical teachings that have flourished for centuries. The Paganized Hellenized de-Judaified doctrines of Christianity has lead the many believers astray.

The fullness of the Gentiles coming in, means that the Gentiles will one day realize the true roots of its faith, which is Judaism. Until the Gentiles realize that Yeshua was teaching a Jewish religion and not a new one, then it will enable the Gentiles to start coming in.

When the Jews see that Gentiles are coming in, and coming in in its fullness, and they realize that it is because of Yeshua that they are keeping the Torah and coming into the fold, the Jew will see Yeshua.

The tables have turned, before it was all dependent upon the Jew, now, it is dependent upon the Gentile. This is not a bad thing, this is showing that G-d valued all mankind as equals and that He intended all people to be Israel.

[ashermoshehthreepointonefour]

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 14 2010,22:06)

AB i can not see the difference in your view, to me the pharisees and Sadducee's were standing together against Jesus ,i have read anything in the scriptures otherwise,did you ?? and the difference between them is that one believed in the resurrection not the other, the fact that they abandon Gods way this was their down fall and always as been for us all.

T,

The issue is you need to arm yourself with a broader knowledge base on the historical facts which line up with the accounts recorded in scripture. Without understanding the historical backdrop, it is so easy to be swayed by the Greco-Roman manipulation that has brainwashed the secular masses regarding the truth about this issue. People have been taught a rather skewed misleading teachings regarding the other Jewish sects of the day.

The Pharisees who were together with the Seduccees were the corrupted ones from the Shemai Pharisee sect. The Hillel Pharisee sect and the uncorrupted Shemai Pharisees declared that Seducee sect were heretics because the Seducees were heavily influenced by Helenistic doctrines, and because the Seducees reject Oral Torah and the Prophets and the Writings.

It was only a particular group of Pharisees (Shemai) and Seducees that were against Yeshua. Not all of them were. In fact, the very Pharisees and Seduccees who were corrupt were condemned in the Talmud.

If you recall the account in the NT, the certain Pharisees and Seduccees set up an illegal hearing or trial behind the Sanhedrin's back. And there was a Pharisee who spoke out about this against the “bad” Pharisees. He even protested by stating that all the Sanhedrin was not present and that the trial was illegal and wrong. They went against the Torah's laws.

It was not the entire council of the Sanhedrin (who were a body of 70 elders) that were present because there would have been priests who would have objected to the trial, especially because it was not held according to the Torah. Most of them didnt even know this trial was taking place, once Caiaphus lead the renegade party, he was already in cahoots with Pontius Pilate… and the ball was already in full blown motion.

Even the Talmud, has spoken on this particular group of Pharisees and Seducees, and its depiction of these men are in complete agreement with the New Testament. The Talmud states that these men were violent, greedy men who robbed both the common people and the common priests, and disregarded their own teachings for their own personal gain. The Talmud clearly says that these men were not a true reflection of their sect and had given them a bad name. The Talmud even touches on how these high priests enriched themselves through their commerce in the Temple:

Talmud says “This Temple market was what in Rabbinic writings is penned ‘the bazaars of the sons of Annas’ (Chanuyot b'nai Chanan), the sons of the High-Priest Annas, who is the other infamous priest in New Testament history besides Caiaphus… from the unrighteousness of the traffic carried on in these Bazaars, and the greed of the owners, the 'Temple-market' was at the time most unpopular in Jewish history. This appears, not only from the conduct and words of the patriarch Shimon (Simeon, the grandson of Hillel) [cf. Ker. i.7] and of Baba ben Buta… [Jerus. Chag. 78a], but from the fact that popular indignation, three years before the destruction of Jerusalem, swept away the Bazaars of the family of Annas, and this, as expressly stated, on account of the sinful greed and violence which characterized their dealings.” [Sanhedrin Beit Cha]

So, once again, we see that there was a seperation amongst these 2 sects, that even in the Talmud it is stated very explicitly as shown quite exponentially in the New Testament.

Even the great historian Josephus wrote about the problems of Caiaphus and Annas, how they formed a corrupt family within the Sanhedrin and disgraced the Jewish people and religion.

Let's not forget that the Hillel Pharisees were on Yeshua's side, such as Nicodemus, Joseph of Aramathea and many others. The Hille Pharisee sect had a much different view than the Shemai Pharisees, and were completely against the “mixing” of Pharisees and Seducees.

Ultimately, it was the Seducees who instigated the execution of Yeshua, not the Pharisees. The Pharisees that Yeshua debated with, are common in Judaism, as one can find debates between Rabbis in the Talmud, in a very similar manner that we see in between Yeshua and the Pharisees.

[ashermoshehthreepointonefour]

Quote (Shania @ Feb. 11 2010,14:29)

Matt 5:33-6:1 33 “Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.' 34 But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37 Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one. 38 “You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'   39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41 If someone forces you to go one mile , go with him two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. 43 “You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. NIV This whole chapter is talking about how love is greater than the law- the purpose of the law was to spur the Jews onto love.  Jesus exposes this and selfish heart motives to follow law in order to feel righteous- but you cannot be righteous w/o love.  If you walk in love, you will fulfill the law.  So the law is not bad, or thrown away, but the purpose is exposed.  We were not called to be religious.. we were called to love.

Not so, the NT and the OT tell us that the Torah's core message is love. Every commandment in the Torah is infused with love, which is why Yeshua stated that the entire Torah hangs on the two greatest commandments. The Torah's message was always about love. It didnt change and was nothing new when Yeshua came. Judaism has always taught that the Torah is about love. A person who keeps Torah without love is not keeping the Torah.

[ashermoshehthreepointonefour]

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 10 2010,09:49)

[/quote] Quote (ashermoshehthreepointonefour @ Feb. 09 2010,14:11) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 09 2010,09:31) Quote (ashermoshehthreepointonefour @ Jan. 29 2010,01:55) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 28 2010,15:12) ashermoshehthreepointonefour,Jan. wrote: 942767,Jan. wrote: Hi Asher: You say: Quote None have an interest to convert because the followers of Yeshua remained Jews,  there was no instruction to leave Judaism, only to continue in it. Are you saying that they believe that they will be saved by keeping the Law?  Well they could if they could keep it without violating it in any way. The scriptures state that except a man is born of water and of the Spirit he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. This is what the Apostle Paul had to say: Quote Gal 3:2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? Gal 3:4 Have you suffered so many things in vain–if indeed it was in vain? Gal 3:5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, [does He do it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?– Gal 3:6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” [fn] Gal 3:7 Therefore know that [only] those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, [saying], “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” [fn] Gal 3:9 So then those who [are] of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed [is] everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” [fn] Love in Christ, Marty HI there… I never said anything of the kind. Jews do not believe salvation comes from keeping the Torah of Works which is a common misconception about Jews, salvation comes from the Torah of Faith. Keeping the Torah is the way of life. Judaism does not expect observants to keep the Torah perfectly, no Jew thinks that they can keep it perfectly. Its merely a way of life that takes a life time to grow in and continuously correct and refine. Jews also believe in the Spirit and Faith, and that one is born of water and spirit. All these concepts are not new, and were not new when Yeshua or Paul came to town. These are direct quotes written by Paul… who was a practicing Pharisee Romans (Rominim) 2:13 “because the hearers of the Torah (Law) are not justified before G-d, but the doers of the Torah (Law) shall be justified.” “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the Torah.” Righteousness is counted by faith first. However, the scriptures also say that we cannot be righteous unless we keep the Law. The great mind of Paul, who painstakingly wrote his thesis on the paradoxical issues with the Torah. The Abrahamic promise… the covenant that was made between G-d and Abraham, the father of all nations, is one of the focuses of Christian teaching… we should really consider what the scriptures say in regards to this, as it clearly shows what the role of the believer should be. Faith is how we are justified by G-d, but if we do not keep the Law then our faith is empty and dead… and therefore we cannot be justified. If we look at what Genesis says about Abraham we can see that this pattern very clearly. Genesis (Bereshis) 15:6 “And he (Abraham) believed in HaShem; and he counted it to him for righteousness.” Now that we see that faith is how we are justified, how can we then learn from Abraham's following acts? Lets see what the scriptures say…. Genesis (Bereshis) 26:4-5 “And I will make your seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto your seed all these countries; and in your seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my TORAHs.” Abraham was the first Jew. How? Through faith. Did Abraham then feel that his righteousness through faith warranted him to then not keep G-d's Law? Or did Abraham put his faith into action by keeping the Law? Paul spoke of the Jew who is inwardly, without circumcision (conversion)… this is why Abraham was considered the first Jew… Through faith (before circumcision), his consciousness was Jewish, however…. the scriptures prove that Abraham kept the whole Torah before the Torah was even given. This further proves that a person of faith, ought to keep the Torah. The book of James is clearly saying that. It is clear that Abraham's faith is what lead him to keep the Law. Abraham was given the Torah before it was given on Sinai (Gen 26:5), and this is something that Christianity fails to understand. The Law was established by Abraham, because his faith lead him to desire to keep G-d's Law. Faith or the Abrahamic promise does not nullify the Law, it establishes it. James (Yamei) 2:17 “Even so faith, if it has not works of the Torah, it is dead, being alone. Yeah, a man may say, You have faith, and I have done works: shew me your faith without your works, and I will shew you my faith by my works. You believe  that there is one God; you will do well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But will you know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Do you see how faith wrought with his works, and by works of the Torah was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which says, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of G-d. You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works of the Torah is dead also.” What is the right thing? let's see what Paul says… Romans (Rominim) 7:12 “Wherefore the Torah is holy, and the commandments holy, and just, and good.” Yeshua warns about lawlessness Matthew (Matisyahu) 7:21-23 “Not every one that says unto me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter into the k ingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works?' And then will I profess unto them, 'I never knew you: get away from me, you workers of lawlessness.” Ecclesiastes (Kehilot)12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear G-d, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. The scriptures are warning us about teachers who will lead us astray… again, I must quote the scripture that prophecizes the ways of the anti-christ and what he will do with the Torah… Daniel 7:25 “And he (the anti-christ) shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear down the saints of the most High, and will think to change the appointed times and the Torah: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.” Yeshua said still “If you love me, keep the commandments.” Yeshua also said “If you want eternal life, then keep the commandments.” Paul said “Is the Torah null and void? G-d forbid.” Paul also said “We establish the Torah.” Quote Hi Asher: You say: Quote Judaism does not expect observants to keep the Torah perfectly, no Jew thinks that they can keep it perfectly. Its merely a way of life that takes a life time to grow in and continuously correct and refine. Well, we know then that we are saved by faith so that it might be by grace, and not of works lest any man should boast.  Nevertheless, we do know that faith without works is dead. Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of all those who obeyed God in the OT and for all who come to God through him from the time of his ministry on earth until he comes for the church. And so, when you say that Jews won't convert although they believe, because followers of Yeshua remained Jews, how then can they be saved?  It is the blood that was shed for us that washes away our sins. Love in Christ, Marty Hello brother, Well Im glad you acknowledge faith without works is dead and that faith without boasts is correct and that grace is intact. It is true that Yeshua took away our sins, but just because he came and did the right thing and taught us to do the right thing, doesnt mean that he did that so that we dont have to do the right thing anymore. The church, is all of Israel, Jew and Gentile. There is no need for a Jew to convert when they are already within the camp. It was only necessary for a Gentile to convert (circumcision of heart or flesh if you will). The Bible tells us that Gentiles are grafted into Israel, not the Jews grafted into something else. And yes, there were Jews who were broken off, but will be grafted back in… Yeshua, the Apostles and the Netzari Moshiachim HaDerekh (the original sect that followed Yeshua) never converted to another religion. There was no such instruction to do so, not in the Bible and not in history. A person can be a Torah observant Jew and still be saved by the blood that washed away our sins. Peace and Love, Ash Quote Hi Asher: I am not sure, then what you mean by saying that a Jew does not have to convert. I agree that the church is Israel, which is Jew and gentile.  We are one in the Lord. And so, I guess the question that I have is, do you believe that a Torah observant Jew, in the present era, has to believe that Yeshua is the Son of God and that God has raised him from the dead, and having believed God's testimony regarding what he has done for humanity through Yeshua, do they need to follow this with water baptism to be saved? Love in Christ, Marty What I mean is, a Jew is already home, what would a Jew convert to when he or she is already an Israelite, already a Jew? The New Covenant was about grafting in the lost tribes of Ephrayim back into the fold and about grafting in the Gentiles into the fold. It was the Gentile who had to convert via heart. The Torah Observant Jew in today's era who does not believe in Yeshua will only believe when the fullness of the Gentiles come in, only then will HaShem lift the veil over their eyes as it was HaShem who blinded them from knowing the Messiah. It all depends on what the fullness of the Gentiles come in, which has yet to happen. The Torah Observant Jew in today's era who does believe in Yeshua, is all set. Baptism is something that a Jew does everyday, it is called Tevillah in Hebrew. Now, being immersed in the mikveh in the name of Yeshua, that would obviously be done once they believed in Yeshua. But salvation is not dependent upon baptism-tevilah. Peace always Ash Hi Asher: While I agree, salvation is not dependant on baptism, but is dependant on our faith what God has done for us in the person of His Only Begotten Son and His Christ, water baptism is a work of obedience publically showing that we have believed with a repentant heart.

Baptism was always a custom that was performed by an Israelite, so yes, it is part of the Torah.

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You are not making any sense by saying that the Torah observant Jew will be saved without believing in God's testimony regarding His Son and His Christ.

You misunderstood what I meant.

It was HaShem who blinded the Jews from knowing the Messiah, and this was a prophecy, He blinded them but will not lift the veil until the fullness of the Gentiles come in. This has yet to happen. So the Jew does not have anything to worry about, whether they believe in Yeshua now or not, they are still worshipping the Father and are keeping the commandments. In a sense, they are already following Yeshua. When the fullness of the Gentiles come in, then they will see and then all will be well.

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If that were so, why then would the Apostle Paul indicate that those Jews who did not believe in Yeshua were broken because of unbelief.

The Jew is still following the Father, so they are far better off than anyone who does not believe in Yeshua. But they will believe when G-d lifts the blinding.

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And what of the following scriptures: Quote John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the wor ld through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Or this one: Quote 1 John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. 10He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. Of course, my desire is that every man be saved, and that is why I live and preach the gospel. Love in Christ, Marty

Please refer to what I said above, all in G-d's timing. The task now rests on the Gentiles, when the fullness of the Gentiles have come in, then G-d will give the Jew the sight to see. This is all G-d's doing, He blinded the Jew from knowing the Messiah but in return for that He blessed the Jew with the insight of the Torah. G-d has a master plan as you know.

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