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[annie]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Feb. 15 2013,10:20)

TO ALL, I cannot reply to all posters because age and other factors have taken their toll on me. I am inclined to reply to David only because he is the most honest and intelligent person on this board. I have done a thorough study on the word elohim in the scripture and have discovered that inu ending is the plural possessive pronoun-suffix denoting things (plural) which are ours. Examples: abithinu (our fathers) aunthinu (our iniquities) moshinu (our works) chtathinu (our sins) Therefore, eleinu is “our Gods.” Correct translation of Deuteronomy 6:4: “Jehovah our Gods is ONE Jehovah.” I have determined that the translators have rendered eleinu in the singular for theological reasons which are not valid. I have been on other forums since discovering this and no one has been able to refute it. I wish David or whoever the best in trying to refute it.

Hi Jack

In Deuteronomy 6:4, commonly referred to as the Sh'ma, it refers to Adonai Echad, which is the plural form of one, as in a bunch of grapes or a dozen eggs.  It does not mean more than one God or Gods as you put it, and definitely not 3 as in Trinity.  Jesus, the man, was not with God in the beginning, the Word was.  Jesus, the man, was born of Mary, but having the full nature of God became the Living Word.

Shalom
Annie

[annie]

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 16 2012,07:30)

Quote (annie @ Sep. 16 2012,07:16) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 16 2012,04:57) Quote (annie @ Sep. 16 2012,04:53) Hi Ed You are right on when you say that the 8th is the Ottoman Empire.  It was the 7th beast and that empire was abolished in 1924. Shalom, Annie Hi Annie, The seventh empire was the Ottoman Empire, the Eighth Empire (which we are in now) is Muhammadin Isalm. Your brother in Christ, Jesus. Ed J (Joshua 22:34) Ed, Yes the 7th empire was the Ottoman empire.   Revelation 17:11 states:  “As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to perdition.” Whether it will be called the same thing I don't know.  What I do know is, since the Ottoman empire was made up of Arab countries then this tells us that the eighth will be Arab also.  Since the dominant religion is Islam in Arab countries then we also know that the empire that will rule in the end time will be Arab/Muslim.  Since Muslims don't believe in Yeshua as the Messiah, they will gladly follow the beast. Who do you think the harlot is?   Shalom Annie Hi Annie, Mystery Babylon the great is world religions. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Hi Ed

I've heard that very same thing before, as well as the United States because of what Revelation says about it being a wealthy city.  I think because of that people think the US is in prophecy, because NY is called the financial capital of the world.

I do not believe that the US is in prophecy so I don't think it is NY scripture is talking about.  I know because scripture portrays her as a woman people think it is religions.

However, merchants don't get rich selling their wares to religions.  The scripture calls Babylon a city and we know that Babylon is religious, political AND territorial.  That makes me think it is actually a territory in the Middle East.  

The scripture says the woman rides the beast, leading it, as when you ride a horse, you lead it where you want it to go.  Islam is the religion of the beast obviously, so why would all the world's religions be riding it and leading it?

Think about this scripture:
Rev.17:1,2
Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who is seated upon many waters, with whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and with the wine of whose fornication the dwellers on earth have become drunk”

I know that could mean false idolatrous religions, but I don't believe Judaism or Christianity are false religions so much as they just don't have everything right.  Since we know that Islam, Christianity and Judaism make up most of the world, I don't see religions as being the Harlot.  

However, “seated on many waters” and “the wine of whose fornication the dwellers of the earth have become drunk” may give us a clue.  When talking about people, scripture usually refers to seas, not waters.  Obviously “wine” is not really wine.  Now, if you look at Saudi Arabia, it is the only one that is surrounded by 8 waters, it is the richest country in the world as it has most of the world's oil (wine) 25%, (we know that everything today is about oil so it is easy to see the dwellers of the earth have become drunk on her wine), it is an Islamic country, when it talks about the “kings of the world” have committed fornication, we know that Saudi Arabia, with all its riches pays the political world off to keep their silence.  The Clintons, Jimmy Carter, Condoleeza Rice, Colin Powell are a few. Saudi Arabia are the ones who have been funding the terrorists, and all of the terrorists from 9/11 were from Saudi Arabia.  Saudi Arabia plays both sides of the fence.  Notice how it sits back at this time and is quiet while the rest of the Middle East is in an uproar?  No one seems to mention Saudi Arabia through all of this, why?

Its almost as if the beast is allowing Saudi Arabia to lead it for a time, but her time will be short, as they will destroy her when her use is up.

What do you think?

Shalom,
Annie

[annie]

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 16 2012,04:57)

Quote (annie @ Sep. 16 2012,04:53) Hi Ed You are right on when you say that the 8th is the Ottoman Empire.  It was the 7th beast and that empire was abolished in 1924. Shalom, Annie Hi Annie, The seventh empire was the Ottoman Empire, the Eighth Empire (which we are in now) is Muhammadin Isalm. Your brother in Christ, Jesus. Ed J (Joshua 22:34)

Ed,

Yes the 7th empire was the Ottoman empire.  

Revelation 17:11 states:  “As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to perdition.”

Whether it will be called the same thing I don't know.  What I do know is, since the Ottoman empire was made up of Arab countries then this tells us that the eighth will be Arab also.  Since the dominant religion is Islam in Arab countries then we also know that the empire that will rule in the end time will be Arab/Muslim.  Since Muslims don't believe in Yeshua as the Messiah, they will gladly follow the beast.

Who do you think the harlot is?  

Shalom
Annie

[annie]

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 16 2012,01:10)

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 13 2012,07:05) Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 13 2012,06:59) EdJ. The anointed cherub is no more,he has fallen: He is now a fallen angel,a rebeller called satan. The light has gone out, and has turned into darkness. wakeup. Hi Wakeup, “The son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.”      (2 Thess 2:3-4) God bless Ed J Hi Wakeup,  (Link) “Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am God,   I sit in the seat of God (See 2Thess.2:3-4), in the midst of the seas; yet   thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:” (Ezek 28:2)     “Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God?       but thou shalt be a man (See Isaiah 14:16), and no God,       in the hand of (Ed J) him that slayeth thee.” (Ezek 28:9) God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Hi Ed

You are right on when you say that the 8th is the Ottoman Empire.  It was the 7th beast and that empire was abolished in 1924.

I think what most are missing is the fact that the same thread runs through the whole Bible from Genesis to Revelation.  When did all the trouble begin?  With Abraham and his two sons!  Isaac was the heir to the promise and Ishmael had 12 sons and became a great nation (the Arabs)  Then it continues with Jacob and Esau.  Jacob got the inheritance and Esau married Canaanite women and the daughters of his uncle Ishmael, thereby joining himself to the Arab nation.  The fight continues to this day and will till the end.

Also, when John was given his revelation he was looking at HIS WORLD AT THE TIME and it didn't include the United States.  The United States is NOT in prophecy!  His world was the Middle East.  Where is Jerusalem?  In the Middle East!  The Ottoman Empire hadn't come yet!  What spiritual city is in direct opposition to Jerusalem?  Mecca!  The 10 kings will be Arabs/Muslims.

Rev.17:8  The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is to ascend from the bottomless pit and go to perdition; and the dwellers on earth WHOSE NAMES HAVE NOT BEEN WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE from the foundation of the world, will marvel to behold the beast, because it was, and is not, and is to come.

What this scripture is saying is the ones who will be enamored by the beast are the ones whose names are NOT written in the book of life, TRUE believers in Yeshua as their Messiah, whose names are written in the book of life, won't be so enamored obviously, as scripture also tells us that saints will be martyred.  Obviously, from this scripture also, it can't be the Roman Empire revived as it distinctly says it “is not”.  Rome was the empire at the time of John's vision so it can't possibly be the Roman Empire!

Even though the Catholics teach many false doctrines, they still preach Yeshua is the Messiah.  The Pope can't be the false prophet or anyone that teaches that Yeshua is Messiah.

Babylon was moved by Constantine to Istanbul Turkey, and it is still there, Magog and Gog are in Turkey (the descendants of Noah set up their territories in Turkey where the arc landed) Who was the son of Noah's son Ham?  Nimrod!  Babylon is religious, political and territorial.  You are right the king of the north will come from Turkey not Europe.

Also, the Muslims are looking for their “Messiah” to come.  We know that Yeshua is the son of GOD, we know he is GOD come in the flesh.  The Muslims however, don't believe that Yeshua is Messiah.  Whoever comes and tells them he is God, they will believe he is!  When you look at what is going on today in the Middle East it is easy to see that all is being set up for that time when he comes to power.  Besides, the number of Muslims is growing at an alarming rate, they will over take the Christians in number easily very soon.

People need to stop looking at the branches and look at the root.  It began with 2 brothers, Isaac and Ishmael and it will end with the descendants of these same 2 brothers!

Shalom,
Annie

[annie]

Quote (TimothyVI @ June 10 2012,06:00)

Hi Annie. For over 50 years I said the same things that you are saying. But I eventually realized that God's word was flawed, so it couldn't possibly be from a god. It has been a continual learning experience since then. I realized that God never did answer any of my prayers, or talk to me like a friend. There is really no personal relationship, I had to imagine all of that stuff just like you are doing now. So don't tell me that I didn't know God, or was never a true Christian. I knew God just like you do, and it is all in your head. Tim

Hi Tim,

I'm not sure I understand what you mean when you say God's Word is flawed.   I know different translations of the Bible are flawed as they use incorrect words as well as having interpretations in parentheses, (which are usually based on false doctrine).

God's Word itself, however, is not flawed.  The word given to the original men who wrote it inspired by the Holy Spirit is not flawed.  The Bible spans a period of 4000 years, written by many different writers, and yet the message remains consistent throughout.  If you have ever played the telephone game, then you know how a message can get so changed when just given to 10 people.  Not to mention that over 300 prophecies written in his word have been fulfilled.

I began to deny God existed, while I was at a young age, and continued to do so for many many years.  I too, used the same arguments you are using.  But having a lot of tribulation in my life, and being so broken in spirit, I turned to him in desperation finally, knowing that no one on earth could help me.  To my shocked amazement, I found that after seeking him, he was real.

It has been a continual learning experience since then.  I do have to disagree with you once again, as God does answer my prayers, and does talk to me like a friend.    And you are wrong, it is not in my head.  

After Jesus baptized me with the Holy Spirit, it was amazing to me how it just seemed like blinders had been taken off my eyes.  I saw and understand all things differently, the world as well as God's Word.  For the first time, I did have a personal relationship with him, as is possible, as God started to reveal himself to me more and more.  

The biggest thing I found he taught me was trust, as you can't have a relationship with out trust.  Trusting God, someone we can't see, or touch, is the hardest thing for us humans to do and yet it is the thing he wants the most from us.  He showed me, after I went through trials and tribulations, exactly where he was while I was going through them, even though I didn't see him or think he was there.  It is all a matter of trusting in him.  It is a common thing to man to blame God for all that goes wrong in life.

No Tim, believe me, I am a witness to his resurrection and he is true, and it is definitely not in my head!  You say that you knew him like I know him.  I don't know how that can be, as knowing him the way I do, I could never deny him as you are.  I never said you weren't a true Christian, nor would I, that sounds like the Accuser to me.

No Tim, I have been loving and following God for well over 30 years.  I have found that he is a wonderful, loving, merciful God and I would have no other!

Shalom

[annie]

Quote (TimothyVI @ June 10 2012,01:55)

Any person, thing or god that is so self centered and narcissistic to proclaims to be evil and deserve death anyone who does not agree with them 100%, even little babies, is EVIL themselves. If I were to worship a god, it would not be this kind of god. You are welcome to it. Tim

Yes, but Tim, you have never experienced the love of God.  I, on the other hand, who have experienced his love, would not have any other God, even if there was one, (which there isn't).

He is so awesome, there are actually no words that are good enough to describe him!  He's better than any complimentary word you can try to apply to him.  

Gee, how can we have such different opinions about the same God?  Maybe because one of us knows him and the other is just assuming he does?

You will never know his love as long as you keep on the same track that you are on.  Give it up Tim, how many times do I have to tell you, you will never understand God and his ways until you know him.  Until then, your comments are just based on ignorance.

The fact that you are on this forum and asking questions about God tells me you are not a total loss yet!  I will pray for you, that God opens your eyes and touches your heart.  You will never be the same if he does, and you will never want to go back to where you are now, of that I can assure you!

Shalom

[annie]

Quote (TimothyVI @ June 09 2012,21:37)

Quote (annie @ June 09 2012,09:49) Let's stick to what is written Tim.  No where in these verses is anything said about children having their heads severed in front of their mother and sisters.  You are the one trying to make him sound worse by putting your spin on it. Numbers 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.   31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.   Come on Annie. How do you think they killed people back then? Give them a sleeping pill. The soldiers killed everyone with a sword. God told them to use a sword. Yeah, I put my spin on it because I imagine a mother standing there with her little son and daughter, holding their hands, when some brute kills her son in front of her and then turns and kills her.  But not to worry, he keeps the little girl for himself. There is nothing in this story that should be considered holy. And people that can turn a blind eye to the atrocity are sick dangerous people. Tim

God makes the rules Tim.  He makes them very clear and frankly, he could care less whether you like them or not, as he is God, not you!  

“But who are you, a man, to answer back to God?  Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me thus?”  Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use?”  Romans 9:20,21

Its pretty simple Tim, if you are not for God then you are against him.  Enemies of God are considered evil and treated as such. Eventually, all evil will be destroyed.  Do you really think God cares how?  If you are considered an enemy of God at the final judgement, you then, as evil, will be thrown in the lake of fire to be destroyed forever. No more chances.

Just think Tim, if you don't repent before you die the first death, then you will be resurrected at the second resurrection, just to be thrown into the lake of fire, to be killed again, for good this time.  Done!  Evil will be no more!  He has told us all things ahead of time.  He has promised evil will be destroyed completely, and his own will live eternally, with him in glory.  Again, Tim, your choice.  

“Blessed and holy is he who shares in the first resurrection!   Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and they shall reign with him a thousand years.”   Revelation 20:6

You won't get anywhere by denying or rebelling.  Like I said Tim, God makes the rules.

[annie]

Quote (TimothyVI @ June 09 2012,02:20)

Quote (princess @ June 08 2012,23:53) Tim, I do believe Anne is referring that if you break the law you can go to Jesus and all your sins will be forgiven now, it is the belief of a Messianic Jew. The old is still held however, anything to do with blood sacrifice for atonement no longer applies. I cannot disagree in taking a day off through the week, I studied the Sabbath intently, and the concept of Sabbath is not to do any work, have anyone else do any work, no spending of monies, the best conversations with my son have come from this, it is due to having no distractions through the day to disrupt. Plus, it is a great tool for time management. Now, religious speaking I would still get stoned (ha), due to I do not give the day to the God that declared it to be his. Even so, the benefit of such practice does well for the body and mind. Hi Princess, Don'tget me wrong. I am all for getting a day off a week. I just do not think I should be stoned to death if for some reason I had to work that day. After all, in the bible a man was stoned to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath. So even now, if you don't go to Jesus your sins are not forgiven, then you are not saved from the stoning. Tim

Would you get off the stoning thing already?  Geez!

If you are in a country that still believes in stoning, and you do something wrong in their eyes while there, you may die a death by stoning.  But otherwise, I think its pretty safe to say that the chances of you dying of anything other than a natural death are slim!

The Bible talks about two deaths.  The first one is now in this world, and the second death is after the millennium, the second resurrection, and judgement day.  The second death is only for those who don't repent and believe in Jesus as Messiah.  That's the death you should be worried about!

Shalom

[annie]

Quote (TimothyVI @ June 07 2012,22:08)

Quote (annie @ June 07 2012,17:50) Please don't take out of context. “but the women and the little ones, the cattle, and everything else in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourselves; and you shall enjoy the spoil of your  enemies, which the LORD your God has given you.”  Deuteronomy 20:14 Lesson taught: Now you know how God regards his enemies!  As enemies of God, the men were considered not worthy of life at all and were killed and the women and children were considered spoil.  He saw them as enemies and nothing else.  You are missing the truth completely if you don't see its all about how he sees his enemies as opposed to those he considers his own.   I see Annie, The little babies that God had slaughtered were his enemies so it was O.K. to have their little heads severed from their bodies in front of their sisters and mothers. Somehow you can make him sound even worse. Tim

Let's stick to what is written Tim.  No where in these verses is anything said about children having their heads severed in front of their mother and sisters.  You are the one trying to make him sound worse by putting your spin on it.

I tell you the truth but you aren't hearing.

He loves and protects his own.  His own are those who turn to the Son, through faith, with a true repentant heart, for the forgiveness of their sins. You can not understand God or the things of God unless you have the Spirit.  The Spirit is what guides you into all truth.  You can not receive the Spirit unless you know the Son in true repentance.  Without the Son you can not know God, for the Son is the one who reveals him to you through the Holy Spirit!

Corinthians 2:14  “The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

If you don't know Jesus, then you don't know God, you can not love God, therefore, you are not his own.  Those who are not his own are considered to be his enemies as they are rebellious, deny him and follow their carnal desires and not him.  He doesn't protect them or do for them.  He's very blatant about it, he holds nothing back.  One very clear message throughout his Word is that he will not, nor can he, accept idolatry in any way shape or form.  In his eyes, if you deny him, then you are following his adversary, thus making you an idolator, hence, making you GOD's adversary as well.

What you are ignoring is the fact that everyone, now, because of Jesus, has the choice to know him and to be his own.  God wants you to choose to love him, be his own and be loved by him.  If that wasn't true he would not have sent Jesus!  No one has to be his enemy!  But, if you choose to be his enemy, then suffer the consequences!   

Another thing you are neglecting.  Just because you don't believe in him doesn't mean he doesn't exist.  Mocking him and his own, just puts you on dangerous ground whether you choose to believe it or not.  There is a judgement day for all whether you believe it or not.  You need to fear him, as his own are told:

“Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God; for it is written, Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”  Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.”
Romans 12:19,21

And again in Hebrews 30,31:  

30″For we know him who said,”Vengeance is mine, I will repay.”  And again, “The Lord will judge his people.”  31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

As I said, you need to fear him. But again, your choice, not his. You have no right to criticize what you don't know.  

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction.  Proverbs 1:7

“And do not fear those who kill the body but can not kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.”  Matthew 10:28

Its pretty simple Tim, he loves his own and hates his enemies. You don't get the whole concept, and frankly, you won't, as these things are spiritually discerned.  You can not understand with human wisdom.  As I said before you will not ever get it without the Spirit.  Only those who possess the Spirit are able to understand the interpretation.

“And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who possess the Spirit.”  1 Corinthians 2:13

Shalom

[annie]

Quote (TimothyVI @ June 06 2012,09:08)

Quote (annie @ June 06 2012,07:07)  And as Wakeup said, if everyone would obey GOD, there would be none of the things that go on today. There also would be a lot fewer little old Walmart greeters because we would have to stone them all to death for working on Sunday. It is God's law and Jesus said in Mat. 5:18, “because I tell you with certainty that until heaven and earth disappear, not one letter or one stroke of a letter will disappear from the Law until everything has been accomplished.” Do you not believe God or Jesus Annie? Tim

Hi Tim,

Its pretty obvious that you don't know as much as you think you know.  

According to God's TORAH/law, Sunday, the first day of the week, is not God's Sabbath, and never has been.  God considers Sunday just a regular work day.  The 7th day of the week is God's Sabbath and has been since creation.  It is the only day GOD blessed and set apart from the other six days.  That hasn't changed.

“So God blessed the seventh day and hallowed it, because on it God rested from all his work which he had done in creation.”  Genesis 2:3

The RCC is the one that officially changed it to Sunday, NOT GOD.  There is no teaching in scripture of the 7th day Sabbath being changed by Yeshua/Jesus to the first day, Sunday.  So GOD could care less if you work on Sunday.

When he came, the Messiah, by his sacrifice on the cross for our sins, took away the curse of death for not following the law. Therefore, what is required by GOD now, instead of stoning, is turning to Yeshua/Jesus in true repentance and following him.  If we do that we are forgiven and given eternal life.

“I am writing to you, little children, because your sins are forgiven for his sake.”  IJohn 2:12

Shalom

[annie]

Quote (TimothyVI @ June 06 2012,09:00)

Quote (annie @ June 06 2012,07:07) Therefore, yes, all slavery is obviously wrong in GOD's eyes, the slavery that went on in the US before the civil war as well as the slavery that goes on still today.  Hi Anne, “Dt.20:14 But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself. “ God has classed the women and little ones right along with the cattle and other posessions, to be taken as spoil. Isn't that obviously wrong in God's  eye? Tim

Hi Tim,

Please don't take out of context.

“but the women and the little ones, the cattle, and everything else in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourselves; and you shall enjoy the spoil of your  enemies, which the LORD your God has given you.”  Deuteronomy 20:14

Lesson taught: Now you know how God regards his enemies!  As enemies of God, the men were considered not worthy of life at all and were killed and the women and children were considered spoil.  He saw them as enemies and nothing else.  You are missing the truth completely if you don't see its all about how he sees his enemies as opposed to those he considers his own.  

God the Father holds women and children in high regard. To know the Father, you need to know the Son.  

“All things have been delivered to me by my Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”  Matthew 11:27

Shalom

[annie]

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ June 06 2012,04:45)

Ed, Your ability to comprehend basic arguments is as questionable as ever. Let me make it simple for you.  Is Leviticus 19:18 in conflict with Leviticus 25:44-46? If not, then your Romans passage is irrelevant. Thanks for playing!

Hi Whatistrue

You need to read these two verses more closely, and understand the culture and time they were given in, namely, at the beginning of the Hebrew nation, before the coming of the Messiah.

What you are not understanding about the two verses in Leviticus is who GOD considered their neighbors to be at that time.  

Leviticus 19:18 “You shall not take vengeance or bear any grudge against the sons of your own people, but you should love your neighbor as yourself:  I am the LORD.”

Their neighbors were those from their own people, not those from other nations.

You have to also remember, that at the time these instructions were given, GOD had chosen the Hebrews as his OWN nation. They were the important ones to him as they were chosen for a specific purpose.  They were to first learn who exactly the one true GOD was and then they were to tell the other nations who the one true GOD was.  Of course, it did not work out quite the way GOD had planned because man followed his carnal nature and turned from GOD instead.  However, at the time these verses were given to the Hebrews, GOD was still teaching them who he was and what he expected from his people.

Now that the Messiah has come, things have now changed and he taught us that we are all one in faith and now  everyone is our neighbor.  And as Wakeup said, if everyone would obey GOD, there would be none of the things that go on today.

Therefore, yes, all slavery is obviously wrong in GOD's eyes, the slavery that went on in the US before the civil war as well as the slavery that goes on still today. 

[annie]

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 23 2012,17:00)

Hi Annie, Quote I do not condemn you nor do I judge you or other Christians for keeping these holidays Maybe you should reread your posts here. Quote As this is an open forum for all to see, as well as you, all I said was that as long as you and others who think its okay to celebrate these holidays, still refuse to see the truth about what SCRIPTURE has to say about these two particular holidays that are taken from pagan days and customs of worship, then continuing is senseless. I think you have a hard time rightly dividing the word of God. I was reading something a 'closet pagan' had written. She said that she put up Christmas trees to disguise the fact that she was a pagan so that her family would think that she was a Christian like them. The pagans know the difference. They know that the Christmas tree is not the same as their Yule tree. They know that Christians worship another God, not their god. I could see your point if they thought that Christians were honoring their gods with their similar customs but they don't, not from what I can tell. Also, the church meets on the first day of the week, not because of honoring a sun god but because of the resurrection being on the first day of the week. That began way before Constantine made it official. Do you think that you should rebuke the Lord for rising from the dead on the same day that the sun god is worshiped? That is an example of a holy event happening on the same day as a pagan event. Go figure. It didn't stop God. He does not work around the pagan days, they did not control Him and why should they then control us? As far as the three days and the three nights go, I understand. I figure that it is possible that Jesus died on a Thursday, though. I also think that it is possible that the saying 'three days and three nights' is a Hebrew idiom not to be taken literally. I also read somewhere that they did not have a zero in their numbers. The early church fathers did not mention anything about a second sabbath in their writings. From what I read, they write of a Friday passion and there was no controversy on that amongst the early church fathers. Maybe I just haven't read about it, idk. I really don't think it is a detail to cause one to discredit the church. We are told that He rose on the first day of the week and that is the day that I celebrate. The Bible doesn't say which day of the week that He died. It comes down to how it can be counted and people count it in different ways, for instance, a part of a day is considered one day by some and only a 12 hour day is considered one day by others. Perhaps the difference between how you perceive all of this and how I perceive this is that you seem to look at the small details whereas I look at the bigger picture. Idk. In other words, to use an English idiom, “Some people can't see the forest for the trees.” A difference in perception is the root of this type of discussion, imo. I think we need to agree to disagree because continuing this seems to be fruitless. Blessings, Kathi

Hi Kathi

Perhaps, you should read my quote again.  You will notice I said, they refuse to hear what SCRIPTURE tells us. Scripture is God's Word not mine.  So the scripture itself is the judge of right and wrong, not me.
 
“With them indeed is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah which says: 'You shall indeed hear but never understand, and you shall indeed see but never perceive.  For this people's heart has grown dull, and their ears are heavy of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should perceive with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and turn to me to heal them.' ” Matt.13:14,15

Yes, the differences between us IS in the details.  You happen to think that the details of HOW we worship are small and insignificant, and the big picture, worship, is the thing. Therefore, it really doesn't matter to you HOW you worship, as long as you worship, so you follow whatever the Church tells you about these two holidays as well as the change of God's commandment of keeping the 7th day Sabbath.

I, on the other hand, happen to think the details of HOW we worship make all the difference to the worship itself, as God tells us not only to worship Him, but He also tells us HOW we are to worship Him.  So obviously, HE thinks the details are important to our worship.  So I choose to follow how He wants to be worshiped, according to scripture, His Word, and not according to everything the Church tells me.  For the Christian Church has replaced God's commandments with their man made holidays and rules.

 I don't think Yeshua would have said something that He didn't mean, so I don't think he was using a “Hebrew idiom” as you say, but actually meant 3 days and 3 nights.  I also know that God did NOT change the 7th day Sabbath (and He, himself, is the only one with the authority to change it) or Yeshua and His disciples would have taught it.  The Catholic Church freely admits they are the ones who changed it to Sunday.  This, based only on assumption by the Church that He rose on Sunday, as again, there is no scriptural evidence to that. With Him being put in the ground just before sundown on Wednesday, would mean that YHWH raised Him just before sundown on the 7th day Sabbath, not on Sunday.  Since Yeshua walked among his people for 40 days after his resurrection, I would think if he wanted us to now keep Sunday in honor of his resurrection instead of the 7th day Sabbath he would have said so. According to historians of the time, as well as scripture, Yeshua's disciples, including Paul kept the 7th day Sabbath as well as the Feasts.  The fact that people started keeping Sunday doesn't mean they were following the truth.  Yeshua taught the truth and since his disciples didn't follow the teaching of Sunday, then I don't consider it to be the truth.  As Yeshua tells us,

“False Christs and false prophets will arise and show signs and wonders to lead astray, if possible, the elect.  But take heed; I HAVE TOLD YOU ALL THINGS BEFOREHAND.”  Mark 13:22,23

My practice is to check everything taught against scripture.  If the teaching is in there, fine, but if it is not then I search to make sure its in line with scripture, if it isn't in line with what scripture teaches then I throw it out.  Scripture will always agree with scripture, there are no contradictions in it.

“Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica for they received the word with all eagerness, examining the scriptures daily to see if these things were so.”  Acts 17:11

All I have done is to try to show you what scripture says about worship taken from pagan days and customs, ( which describe the two holidays of Christmas and Easter exactly), what you choose to do, of course, is entirely up to you.

YHWH Shalom

[annie]

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 21 2012,14:12)

Annie, I think we have to go with our convictions. I do not share your conviction that Christmas and Easter are wrong. We are commanded to preach the gospel and Christmas and Easter are the two most attended days that people go to church. Many un-churched people attend church at that time as well as choir performances, etc. that might otherwise not go and hear the gospel preached. The seasons are filled with the gospel story. You claim that they are imitations of the real thing and I say they are celebrations of actual events in the Bible. The feasts mention the Messiah, Christmas and Easter identify the Messiah. The devoted, unbelieving Jews still celebrate the feasts and miss Jesus. I think it is great to celebrate the Jewish feasts if that is what you want to do but to judge those who celebrate Christmas and Easter as doing something evil is downright wrong and you place a heavy burden on those that celebrate. I considered all of these arguments a few years ago and they almost took my joy away. I believe a religious spirit can be behind all the judging. It all seems like the attitude that the Pharisees had. I wish you would realize that there is another perspective. God turns all things for good for those who love Him…He replaces bad with good. If we went around in fear that you want to generate about doing something that pagans would do then we can't even cut some flowers and put them in a vase. I will not be controlled by the fear that you want to bring, Annie. You can just keep it. I will hold fast to my convictions and be led by the Holy Spirit when He leads me to celebrate freely Christmas and Easter along with Christians all over the world…these celebrations can be about preaching the gospel and that is a command. Sure there are those in the world that do not celebrate like Spirit led Christians do but instead worry about gift giving and end up getting drunk about it. If you are led by the Spirit, you will give gifts that are given and received in love. I have been led to give wonderful gifts at Christmas time, like a puppy for my newly widowed mother who tells me over and over what a wonderful present that was. This year I made her a gift and she has gone on and on about it. My kids who were home got only one gift from us but appreciated it so. Gift giving and celebrating and all that we do are to be Spirit led. I'm done giving gifts just out of obligation. It is very freeing to give gifts as led by the Spirit. I truly enjoy giving gifts that are so enjoyed by others. Sometimes gifts are just a jar of gourmet popcorn, a plate of cookies or something small like that. People appreciate just being thought about. Gifts don't have to be big. I think it is a shame that you want to make people feel guilty for worshiping Jesus as their Lord and Savior and celebrating His birth as well as His resurrection on Christmas and Easter. Christians are to love others not condemn. I'm sure that satan would love for people to take Christ out of Christmas and Easter. That seems to be what you what you are doing. While you pray for me, you might consider asking the Lord if there is a religious spirit that drives you to condemn the majority of Christians all over the world over spreading the gospel through celebrating the story of His birth and resurrection at Christmas and Easter. You place a very unnecessary burden, imo. The gospel has specifically been told in my home on these holidays…the activities of Christmas and Easter that we partake in tell us who the Messiah is and that isn't mentioned in the feasts. Please lets leave it at that…agree to disagree. You don't need to be corroborating about me with your insults with other members here. That is gossip and tickling itching ears and not what we are to do to those who also seek to follow Jesus (or anyone else for that matter). May you receive God's richest blessings, Kathi

Hi Kathi,
You are wrong in thinking I am trying to make you feel guilty about worshiping Christ.  I do not condemn you nor do I judge you or other Christians for keeping these holidays, as I myself did the same for 30 years and felt the same way you do now.  I know how much I love Christ and want to please Him and I truly believed in my heart (as you do) that I was doing this by keeping these holidays, so why would I question your love for Him, or cast doubt upon your worship of Him just because you keep these holidays?  I wouldn't.  If I condemn you then I also condemn myself.  By pointing out what God's Word says about these two particular holidays is a condemnation of the celebration of the holidays themselves, not of you.  Nothing is being said towards you personally, but at and about these two holidays alone.  The truth of scripture condemns these two holidays not me!  If you are being convicted of guilt, as I was, it is not from me but from the truth of the scriptures themselves. All I have done is pointed them out to you.  Please don't kill the messenger!

 I just wanted to share with other brothers and sisters in Christ, what I learned from Him, because of their love for him also and out of love IN Him and for no other reason. I know exactly how you feel as I felt the same way, as you do now, for years.  All I did was point out the real truth about these holidays according to scripture and the fact that they are not what God wants us to do in worship of Him, again according to scripture.  I, personally didn't accuse you of anything, especially of having a religious spirit.

Please read Deut.12.  They were told to destroy everything pagan and do according to the LORD in the place of His choosing.  Notice in verse 28 how He says, “…when you do what is good and right in the sight of the LORD your God.

The truth is found in scriptures and if you compare the scriptures to the truth of the actual holidays (not what you consider them to be) of Easter and Christmas, the holidays themselves, their dates and the customs associated with them can not be found in the very scripture used to explain them, thus leaving a lot of questions as to their actual truth in regards to the truth of scripture.  One of the main questions – how do these holidays identify Yeshua/Jesus as Messiah?  What I found out was that the holidays don't, as He Himself said the only proof to His true identity would be 3days and 3 nights in the grave.  No matter how you look at how the holiday of Easter is celebrated and taught, you can not come to 3 days and 3 nights as described in the Bible.  God called the light day and the darkness night.  Thus a day is 12 hours and a night is 12 hours, the two added together give us 1 FULL DAY.  So He meant 3 FULL DAYS in the grave.  Notice how He said, 3 nights and 3 days.  He wanted there to be no mistake that there would be three 24 hour periods in the grave. So, if you are trying to tell someone, who has no idea who the savior is, that Yeshua/Jesus is the savior, and they ask for proof, what is your proof, since they don't know his saving love yet?  How can you say He is identified in Easter when the actual 'traditional' celebration Christians themselves keep of Easter as well as the days leading to the actual day of 'Easter' itself, doesn't completely agree with the actual scripture they use to describe this holiday?  They teach His last supper and arrest on Thursday evening, His trial, death and burial on Friday and His resurrection on Sunday morning.  How can you say the holiday 'Easter' identifies the true Messiah when the actual 'Easter' story as celebrated doesn't prove He was in the grave 3 days and 3 nights as He himself stated was the ONLY proof that would be given as to His TRUE identity a
s Messiah? No matter how hard you try, according to how the holiday is actually celebrated, there is no way you can get that He was in the grave a full 3 days and 3 nights as He said He would be. This is a very important thing, not to be disregarded, as the Pharisees themselves put a guard of their own at His grave, just so His statement couldn't be proven, as that alone would be able to tell His true identity!  

However, the true story as recorded in scripture, which coincided with the celebration of Passover (not the made up one of Easter), proves His TRUE identity.  You can not tell the story of Yeshua's death, burial, and resurrection with out telling the Passover story, as Him being the Passover Lamb and our final sacrifice for sin, is the fulfillment of Passover.   Especially since now we have the modern technology of NASA, as God's months are determined by the moon not the sun as in our calendar today, they can and have proved that Passover that year was on Wednesday, not any other day.  And the Bible itself proves that He wasn't actually born in or around December as Christmas describes.  So, actually you are wrong when you say that these holidays show His identity.   They clearly do not as the scripture used to describe these two holidays both prove otherwise.

That's all I am trying to do by pointing out the discrepancies of these two holidays with actual scripture itself, including the scripture to describe the holidays themselves.  They are not in alignment with His Word no matter how we try to argue the fact that they are.  And there is no comparison of these two holidays to Purim and Hanukkah, as you and others have tried to do.  As far as the celebration of Purim and Hanukkah are concerned, even though not commanded by God, these holidays are not, nor were they ever, celebrated on the date of a well known pagan holiday, nor do they use the customs of any pagan holiday to worship God on these holidays.  If they had, they too would have gone against scripture and our LORD definitely would not have celebrated them as recorded in John 10 when He celebrated Hanukkah.  There is a big difference!

As this is an open forum for all to see, as well as you, all I said was that as long as you and others who think its okay to celebrate these holidays, still refuse to see the truth about what SCRIPTURE has to say about these two particular holidays that are taken from pagan days and customs of worship, then continuing is senseless.

YHWH Shalom

[annie]

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 21 2012,00:24)

People all over the world can sing this from their heart but not many here. This is a major problem here. I can't imagine why anyone that believes in Jesus' name wouldn't celebrate His birth and resurrection, it truly is beyond me.

I am not told to celebrate His birth in the scriptures, however, I do celebrate the gift from the Father, of Yeshua our Messiah, everyday with my praises and prayers from my heart.

I no longer celebrate Christmas and Easter but I instead keep His Feasts, as commanded in scripture as well as the only new commandment He gave us, which was to remember His death and what He did for us in our stead with the bread and wine.

The Feast of Passover (which includes the first 4 feasts) is all about His death, burial, and resurrection as He is the spiritual fulfillment of the Exodus story of God's salvation of Israel.  

You are wrong in what you say about most people on here, and not wanting to celebrate Yeshua.  Just because people don't celebrate Christmas and Easter doesn't mean they don't celebrate His death, and resurrection.  The Feasts of the Lord celebrate the story of God's redemption of mankind through Yeshua our Messiah!  So every time we celebrate the Feasts of the Lord we are celebrating our Lord and Savior Yeshua!

The celebration of the Feasts of the Lord has brought so much more meaning to my faith.  I realize now why Christmas and Easter just didn't cut it anymore (I celebrated Christmas and Easter for almost 30 years).  But wow!  What a wonderful revelation when I discovered how the first 4 feasts told the WHOLE story, right to the littlest detail, from Moses, to the fulfillment of what was told to Moses, our Messiah!  Then I realized how the Passover Seder itself told the story so beautifully as it was amazing to me how Yeshua fit perfectly into every element of the Seder! The pieces now fit so wonderfully my faith came more alive I just can't explain, but there is just no denying that He is in the Passover Feast and that it is a celebration of HIM!  But of course it is extremely clear now, as He IS the Jewish Messiah and now that this is so clear to me, I also find it rather ironic that Jews who still don't yet believe Yeshua is their Messiah, still celebrate Him every year at Passover and don't even know it!

 I found that Passover is a much more meaningful way to celebrate what my LORD and SAVIOR has done for me than the celebrations of Christmas and Easter.  I really didn't know what I was missing and was angry at the Christian Church for teaching falsely as well as at myself for following and allowing myself to be deceived.

 Maybe many on here who try to get you to see the truth about Christmas and Easter have had the same experience as me, and like me, want you to experience your love for and faith in your Savior like you never have before!  Can't do that though with out giving up Christmas and Easter as they aren't the real thing even though you think they are.  Along with my revelation of the Feasts came also the conviction of guilt for celebrating the imitations of the enemy which called for repentance.  They are strictly an imitation of the real thing, I found that out for myself and I will keep you in my prayers that someday you will find out for yourself.

Shalom

[annie]

Quote (david @ Mar. 16 2012,13:17)

Quote (david @ Mar. 16 2012,12:49) Quote Even the pagans are aware of this because Christians have 'stomped on their parade,' so to speak and they see the difference. They aren't happy about it. Why do you believe this? You are not stomping on their parade. YOU ARE ENDORSING IT.  YOU ARE PROMOTING IT.  YOU ARE COMBINING IT WITH YOUR OWN BELIEFS AND POPULARIZING IT.   The only difference is the name changes to these things.  Christmas, Easter, halloween, etc. As has been pointed out, with Easter, you didn't even try to hard.  “Easter” comes from the name of a false god.   Is this you stomping on paganism?  Or, promoting it? “3. Do many witches celebrate Christmas (in a secular present-giving way) as well? [LR] I should think that almost all of them do. Calls to ban Christmas and not celebrate it have always come from within sections of the Christian community (e.g., the Jehovah’s Witnesses) who, quite rightly, see Christmas as a Pagan festival.” http://www.witchology.com/contents/interviews/yule_winter_solstice.php I'm not sure why you think pagans would be mad that you are popularizing their holiday.  The fact that you attached Christ to it, does not bother pagans.  It bothers Christ.  (See Bible)

You are absolutely right David.  By twisting and turning the truth, Lightenup (and other Christians like her), has been able to convince herself that she is following God and giving Him glory and honor when she celebrates these holidays.  Unfortunately, all people do by celebrating these pagan customs is giving glory to the ENEMY, not GOD!

They refuse to see and hear the truth.  The truth is, (actually the RCC doesn't deny this) Christians haven't REPLACED the pagan holidays as Lightenup claims, but have DISGUISED the holidays to look Christian and not pagan.  All the RCC did was REPLACE the feasts of God with pagan holidays and DISGUISED them by changing their names and dressing them up in scripture.  If you take a dog and dress it up like a cat, under the disguise it is still a dog!  Or as the quote says, “a rose by any other name would smell as sweet”, it doesn't matter what you change the name to, it is still a rose!  Same for these pagan holidays.  No matter how you twist and turn it they are still pagan holidays and they are still looked at by our GOD as pagan holidays.  No matter how much they want to argue this is not the truth, unfortunately, according to scripture, their argument is in vain as is their worship.

[annie]

Quote (seekingtruth @ Mar. 17 2012,10:25)

Quote (annie @ Mar. 16 2012,20:43) Quote (shimmer @ Mar. 16 2012,11:26) Hi Annie. Good posts BTW Some here like to encourage others to be a part of the world and it's ways.  Best to just let them be, they will not see it. Hi Shimmer, Yes, I agree.  They follow the teachings of men but are deceived.  If they are stubborn and not open to the truth, they will never see it.  All in HIS timing as He knows when and if they will be willing to receive the truth. “For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth, and wander into myths.  As for you, always be steady endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. 2Tim. 4:3-5 We are to still tell them the truth but if they are not willing to receive it we are to dust off our shoes and move on, as nothing we tell them will make a difference to them.  All you end up doing is repeating yourself and in the end they still didn't hear a word you said! “And if any one will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet as you leave that house or town.”  Matt.10:14 Annie, First of all welcome I would have to say if you came;  Healing the sick. Bringing the dead back to life. Healing people who have leprosy. And forcing demons out of people. and told me to celebrate Christmas was wrong I would pay a lot more attention. Instead you pass judgment on a person for Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. while we are told; Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand. Wm

The quotes you use have been used previously.  You can check out my reply to them.  But for now I will say that the scriptures you quote are taken out of context and do not fit this discussion at all as they pertain to something different entirely.  Scripture being taken out of context and misinterpreted is a huge problem as unfortunately, it is commonly done and confuses and leads the believer astray.

There is a vast difference between judging and rebuking a brother.  You would do best to study the scripture you quote and see.

The word 'judge' is used too widely and too frequently.  Brothers rebuke brothers when they see they are going AGAINST God according to scripture.  Christmas and Easter are very plainly AGAINST God according to scripture, so those who still practice these customs are being REBUKED by their brothers, NOT judged! 

Check out the scriptures you use again.

[annie]

Quote (shimmer @ Mar. 16 2012,11:26)

Hi Annie. Good posts BTW Some here like to encourage others to be a part of the world and it's ways.  Best to just let them be, they will not see it.

Hi Shimmer,

Yes, I agree.  They follow the teachings of men but are deceived.  If they are stubborn and not open to the truth, they will never see it.  All in HIS timing as He knows when and if they will be willing to receive the truth.

“For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth, and wander into myths.  As for you, always be steady endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. 2Tim. 4:3-5

We are to still tell them the truth but if they are not willing to receive it we are to dust off our shoes and move on, as nothing we tell them will make a difference to them.  All you end up doing is repeating yourself and in the end they still didn't hear a word you said!

“And if any one will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet as you leave that house or town.”  Matt.10:14

[annie]

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 12 2012,12:48)

Quote (david @ Mar. 12 2012,07:03) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 11 2012,18:52) David, If you believe eggs and rabbits are pagan objects then to you they are.  I was not taught such things. On Easter I have payed a search and find game for eggs.  It did not have anything to do with fertility. I was taught the Easter Bunny was a cuddly creature that brought eggs and candy.  Nothing about fertility there as well. I was taught that Samson's mother prayed for fertility. I do like to eat eggs and some see rabbits as pets.  I also like to pray. Kerwin, notice the many posts where I capitalized the word “INTRINSICALLY.” As I have repeatedly said, I don't believe eggs are intrinsically bad. Nor bunnies, obviously. I DON'T BELIEVE THEY ARE PAGAN OBJECTS! And, on your second thought, it doesn't matter what you were taught. If someone is taught that Satan is good, or that racism is good, on being taught otherwise, they should now act in accord with what the actual truth is, not what they were taught.  Right? I eat eggs for breakfast.  I love eggs.  They are great.   But if in 1483, someone decided that on every sept 15, they would worship Satan while wearing yellow hats and eating pink popcorn and chocolate, and this became a tradition that developed from this paganism, would it be good to take that same day and out on a yellow hat and for “fun” eat popcorn and chocolate.   You now say that you are free to eat pink popcorn and of course you are.  But what purpose does it serve if for the sake of your freedom, you appear to be imitating pagans by imitating their customs on the day of that celebration? David, I look on these issues as judging another's servant. As you stated they are not intrinsically evil so whatever one chooses to do it for the Lord. A custom is of no matter.  What is important is the desires of one's heart.   Live by the Spirit of Love and those customs will serve God.

Hi Kerwin,

When we see a brother or sister in Christ doing something that is AGAINST what GOD tells us, as believers, to do, we are told to rebuke him.    

“Take heed to yourselves; if your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him; Luke17:3

When a brother sins according to GOD's word and we tell him, it is rebuking, not judging.  We are considered judging (and not rebuking) our brethren in Christ, when neither brother is wrong in GOD's eyes in what they are doing, yet one tries to tell the other that they are wrong because they don't do it the same way as them.

Which Paul explains in Romans 14.  As far as what Paul is saying about 'judging another's servant', he is really REBUKING the more mature servant!  What he is saying is the less mature may not do something quite the way you do it but if what they are doing is NOT GOING AGAINST GOD, we are to let them alone as it only depends then on one's own conscience as to what is wrong.  In the case of Romans 14 it was all about food sacrificed to idols, Paul explains that the eating or abstaining is up to the believer as neither way is considered a sin by GOD.  It was considered judging because the less mature believer wasn't sinning against GOD but only against the mature believer's own conscience.  The mature believers were in the wrong and were rebuked by Paul.

So when we see another brother or sister in Christ sinning against God we are to rebuke them and tell them where they are wrong. In the case of copying pagan means of worship, we are told, in His Word, it is wrong and a sin as it is against GOD.

“Be careful to heed all these words which I command you, that it may go well with you and with your children after you for ever, when you do what is good and right in the sight of the LORD your God.  “When the LORD your God cuts off before you the nations whom you go in to dispossess, and you dispossess them and dwell in their land, take heed that you be not ensnared to follow them, after they have been destroyed before you, and that you do not inquire about their gods, saying, 'How did these nations serve their gods? – that I also may do likewise'  You shall not do so to the LORD your God; for every abominable thing which the LORD hates they have done for their gods; Deuteronomy 12:28-31

So according to this passage, (there are others as well, but I will only use this one for now) it is AGAINST GOD if we take the objects and customs that pagans used to worship their gods and use them to the LORD our God.  Take notice He told them to DESTROY everything pagan, not use them in a different way!  All you have to do is google Easter and Christmas and you will see that not only the objects that they used in Babylon are being used by Christians today, but the same dates are being used as well!  YOU may not see them as pagan objects or holidays but GOD still does!

You may not have been taught that they were considered pagan but that doesn't mean that what you were taught was right according to God's Word.  Not all customs/traditions are bad and against GOD.  But there are some that aren't good and according to the LORD.  Those that are not according to His Word we are told NOT to do!  So customs do matter!  What matters about them is that what ever customs we follow we better make sure they are in alignment with God's Word!  You need to check out for yourself whether these two traditions/customs are in alignment with everything in His Word.

“And why do you transgress the commandment of God for sake of your tradition?”  “So for the sake of your tradition, you have made void the word of God.”  Matthew 15: 3,6

“This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.”  Matthew 15:8,9

You say “all that matters is the desire of the heart”?  What about the desire of Gods heart?  Why do we not think of Him and what He wants?  Why is it always about us?

He tells us in His Word what His heart wants (His commandments) but instead, we do what WE want and try to justify it by saying, “He knows my heart”.  Yes, you are right, He does! In the verse above, Yeshua is saying that your heart is far from Him, you are only doing lip service! Your worship is in vain! Why?  Because you are ignoring His commands (His heart), your heart desires instead to disobey Him and follow your own precepts as if they were HIS doctrine.  So yes, you are right, He certainly does know your heart!   If you were loving Him with your WHOLE heart, you would want to do what pleases HIM, not yourself!

In the instance of Christmas and Easter, they are precepts of men based on pagan roots and not the doctrine of GOD!  So what you are doing, by insisting on keeping these customs that are not from God, is NOT 'living in the Spirit of Love'. 'Living in the Spirit of Love would be obeying Him.  And the only thing these particular customs will do is keep you in DISOBEDIENCE to GOD!  

[annie]

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2012,09:15)

People can choose to be pagan hunters and paganize what God has made good, i.e. a tree, sex, eggs, bunnies…the list goes on and on. We can choose to find the bad in things and see how that can justify our separation from the Church or we can seek to understand beliefs and customs with a spirit for understanding realizing that the church will not be perfect. We can trust the Lord and ask Him to lead us to the church that He wants us to seek unity in and minister in our gifting. Or, we can get all religious spirited and leave the church implying that Jesus has failed as the Head of His church. Even in a church that is imperfect we can grow in strength of character and sharpen one another to the knowledge of the fullness of Christ. There is not going to be a perfect church this side of heaven but some churches are much more inline with the Spirit of God than others. Last night I visited a church in the area for their annual conference, a different church than the regular one that I attend, and I was probably hugged by about 100 sisters in the Lord…none of them did I know. The worship time was lively and spirit filled, the message was about seeking brotherhood with the many different denominations that preached the Word of God-the one where Jesus is a capital 'G' God with the Father and their Spirit. Among the Pastors who spoke, there was a Baptist, a Pentecostal, and a Messianic Rabbi…all loving and building up one another's ministries and encouraging those in attendance with the teaching that the Lord had given them to teach. I choose to NOT look through the lens of the pagan hunters but instead: Phil 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things. When you seek to follow Jesus command to be a part of His body and minister in your gifting, He will lead you to where you need to be. A religious spirit will lead you away from the church, imo, and have all sorts of 'religious' reasons why to do that. Satan seeks to divide and weaken the church and many are leaving the church because of this. If you don't like how you have celebrated Christmas or the Resurrection Day, change how you celebrate it. At Christmas time, many celebrate it right with the Lord as their focus. Maybe many here haven't experienced that but that is what I have experienced and that is how my husband and I have raised our family. Going to church on Christmas Eve to sing Christmas carols and sing 'Silent Night' while everyone holds a lit candle and take communion together…that is just part of Christmas to me. In the morning, we begin the day with my husband reading the Christmas story around the manger scene and singing 'Happy Birthday' to Jesus. We give gifts to people and receive gifts and enjoy doing that. The friends that I have do similar things. I do realize that to many, Christmas is just another excuse for getting drunk and family fights and all sorts of things that have nothing to do with Christ but that is not because there is a holiday around the story of Christ but because of the wicked hearts of men. If anyone wants to continue to look through the lens of the pagan hunters then you are missing the good in things. A religious spirit could paganize all sorts of things. Get rid of this religious spirit and be cleansed. Trust the Lord that He is still the head of the church. Babylon is where you will find the religious spirits but some creep into the church and proceed to tear the church down. Wouldn't it be better to get rid of the religious spirit than get rid of the church?

Hi Lightenup

I don't understand why you accuse others of having a religious spirit because they don't follow the man made traditions of Christmas and Easter but choose instead to follow scripture.

Are you referring to Legalism?  Legalism is actually the following of the law because you think the law will save you.  As Paul explained to the Galatians, the only way you are saved is through faith in Jesus Christ.  The law was given so we would know exactly what sin is, but it in itself doesn't save us.  Under the law we are condemned to death if we break it.  Since we are not perfect and all sinners and fall short of the glory of GOD, with out the salvation of our LORD, Jesus Christ, we are doomed under the law.  But if you follow the law because you want to show the LORD you love Him (not because you think it saves you) doesn't mean you have a religious spirit!

I think Paul's use of the word 'under' throws people off.  For instance, all countries have laws.  If you are a citizen of that country, you are 'under' the law of that country.  When you are found guilty of breaking that law, you are now condemned to whatever punishment the law states you are to receive for breaking that law because you are 'under' the law of that country.  Well, the same applies to GOD's law.  The only difference is that now, because of our faith in Jesus Christ as our Messiah, we are no longer 'under' the law, meaning when we break the law we are no longer 'under' the condemnation of that law.  The rules and instructions haven't changed, the only thing that has changed, for those that have given their lives to Jesus Christ through faith, is the punishment for the breaking the law. As we are no longer 'under' the law because we are now 'under' the blood of Jesus, we are now not condemned when we break the law as long as we repent from our sins and surrender our lives to Him.   In other words, if you kill someone intentionally, under the law of most states in the US, and are found guilty, you are condemned to life in prison (in some states its death)  But then say someone comes along and takes your punishment for you and goes to jail instead of you.  You are now free from the condemnation of the law (imprisonment or death), but if you are guilty of breaking the law again, the condemnation stands again.   So you see, the law itself never went away just because you didn't pay the price and someone else did, just the punishment for breaking it went away, the law itself still stands.  That is the most awesome thing about our salvation through Jesus Christ, He paid the price for OUR breaking of the law so we don't have to, and He did it ONCE for all, for all time!  Those who do not acknowledge Jesus' salvation in faith are still 'under' the law and condemned to death still as only faith in Jesus saves you from the condemnation of the law.

I also celebrated Christmas and Easter for years. Most of my friends still do.  But that doesn't change the way I feel about them, as I love them still and when they question me about my beliefs, I tell them in love not condemnation.  To me it isn't a matter of celebrating Christmas and Easter differently but not celebrating them at all!  

During personal study of the Word His Holy Spirit led me to the truth of these man made traditions.  Namely, that they were against all He has taught us.  He first showed me though that loving Him and following Him (keeping His Commandments) go together.  Search your word and you will see that are always connected.  You can't say you love Him without following His Word. (And His Word expressly tells us that by taking pagan things that were used in pagan worship and now do those same things to worship Him is something He HATES, so if you are still doing them, you are not following His Word!) IJohn2:3-6 says, “And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we
keep his commandments.  He who says, “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected.  By this we may be sure that we are in him; he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.”
And Jesus didn't follow man made traditions, but followed GOD's law!

I also don't see where anyone has said they have rejected the Church and implied that Jesus has failed as the Head of His Church.  HIS Church is HIS body, not a building filled with people.  It IS the people!  Satan's main goal is to lead the BODY (the people) away from GOD.  He does this by using false teachers to introduce things that are not of God.  When people follow things that aren't of GOD they are then not following His Commandments.  Without following His Commandments but following false teachings instead, you are then obviously NOT obeying His Commandments, and as John says, then the truth is not in you, but by following His Word the love of God is perfected.  So basically, following His Word is the way to perfect His love.  Since Jesus taught everything He taught from the “Old Testament” (as the new hadn't even been written yet!) which is stated by Him, as the law, and the prophets, we should be making a conscious effort to follow these Commands.

I have a question for you.  You say you went to this church and there were leaders there from different denominations of the Christian Church and these leaders “encouraged those in attendance with the teachings that the Lord had given them to teach”.  My question to you is, after attending this conference did you check their teachings against the Word of GOD to make sure that their teachings truly were given to them from GOD?  After all, you obviously didn't know any of them personally, so how do you know they taught the Word unless you checked?  You said their was a Messianic Rabbi there, and I know that Messianics believe in keeping the law, do you think this Rabbi has a religious spirit because he follows the law?

You say that religious spirits can paganize anything and that religious spirits creep into the church and tear it down.  You hit the nail on the head!  Do you not see how the religious spirit of Christmas and Easter paganize the word of God (as they mix the word of God with unclean pagan things) and lead His people from following truth?  Yes Jesus is still the Head of His Church and still teaches the truth through scripture (God's religion, not mans) to those who seek it.  We need to get GOD's people out of those churches that teach false things according to God's Word, so they can rightly follow the Head of the True Church and not a religious spirit sent by GOD's adversary, the devil.  By leaving a particular church denomination that teaches falsely is not leaving the True Church of Christ but is actually following Him as the Head.

''All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.”  2 Timothy 3:16,17

I know that some of this is for another topic but I felt that it pertained to what you said in your post.

Shalom!

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