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[Woutlaw]

wow, I see that there are some new people here. That is great. How is everyone else? It's been a long time.

Listen folks, The Father is the One and Only true God. Christ said so in John 17:3. God exalted Christ to a high position. He MADE him Lord over us. But will he be in this position forever???? read the following, 1 Corinthians 15:24-28, Psalm 110:1. When all is fulfilled, the Son will be SUBJECT (Please look up the Greek word for Subject) to the Father. Who is God subject too??? Please tell me who is greater than He?? Tell me who can exalt God to a position?

Food for thought

Later Guys

[Woutlaw]

Quote (seekingtruth @ May 30 2006,03:59)

I believe it was one of the worst things that has ever happened to Christianity. Not just the false doctrines, but by making becoming a Christian the “politically correct” thing to do, everyone was doing it with no real commitment or even an understanding of what true Chritianity is and this continues to today. I personally believe that God has been restoring truth and true commitment in these last days despite the dominance of the “churches” and their false beliefs.

amen Seekingtruth

[Woutlaw]

Quote (seminarian @ July 21 2006,21:04)

Nick and H, What is this almost fanatical attachment to the KJV Bible?  There is NO perfect translation of the Bible and there are even older, more reliable original Hebrew & Greek texts available today than when the KJV was written.  H, did you check out the Sacred Name Version of the KJ?  I think I gave you the link. Tradition wise, the KJV was the ONLY Bible in my house growing up.  However, it was so difficult to read that I simply gave up.  Now I think if I had another version, I would been much more aware of what the Bible really taught, and not rely on what people SAID it taught. In fact the KJV editors were trinitarians who TOOK OUT part of Matthew 24:36: No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, NOR THE SON but only the Father. They deliberately REMOVED “nor the Son”, because they couldn't explain it and it didn't fit with their trinity theology. I look for a Bible that is more literal such as Young's but that is simply my preference.  A good Greek Interlinear is also indispensible.  HOWEVER, I don't put my trust in anything but the power of God to show me His Word.  I have several translations including the KJV as Bullinger's Companion Bible which is an amazing piece of work even today.  I use and enjoy them all and am always open to reviewing other translations especially if they are based on the older, more reliable manuscripts. To the KJV credit, the book of Isaiah is nearly unchanged from the same book found in the Dead Sea Scrolls.  However, I am determined to test and prove all things. Tootles, Semmy

Good Stuff Semmy

[Woutlaw]

Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ Aug. 05 2006,16:09)

Dear Woutlaw, You say God is not a man. Is Jesus God? Was Jesus a man? As for your 1John 5:7, I believe it should be there and it fits perfectly in God's Word. It does not contradict, but is a piece that fits perfect with the rest of scripture. Many claim it was put there to reinforce the trinity doctrine. I do not believe in the trinity doctrine and can easily explain it away using the Word of God. So don't get hung up on my using of the KJ. What sets it apart is it's infallibility in the doctrine of Christ. All who are against the KJ take the words I post by the unction of the Holy Spirit with a grain of salt. Yet, not can disprove them. For God is truth and men are liars.

heiscomingintheclouds,

#1 I didn't say “God is not a man”, I was simply quoting scripture to prove to a lot of stiff necked people that the KJV isn't infallible. You said you believe that 1John 5:7 belongs in the bible. Brother it doesn' matter what you believe the fact is that the passage doesn't appear in any of the manuscripts before the 1500's. What reason would the translators have to lie about the passage not being in any of the manuscripts before the 1500's.

#2, I'm not hung upon you using the KJV, as I've stated before, I use the KJV almost exclusively. I like it, I think it is a good translation. If you think it is infallible that is your perogative, I don't love you any less. But I've heard many people going as far as saying that the KJV is the only true translation, and that all others are from Satan. I've even heard some say that using anything other than the KJV can jepordize your salvation!!!!! What a load of crap. Whether the KJV is infallible or not is simply a matter of opinion.

[Woutlaw]

Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ June 11 2006,18:43)

The bible tells us that God is the same yesterday, today and forever. The same should be of his church. The apostles set the churches up and though there were several, they all subscribed to the same doctrine. Jesus gave a discription of what a believer would look like by signs that follow them. If you belong to a church that does not bare these signs, chances are, the church is not of God. Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. Now, I have been asked what church I worship in. It is called Maranatha Chapel. It is non denominational and the only doctrine of this church is the Authorized King James bible. Nothing more or nothing less. We believe that it is the infallible word of God and we can prove it. If we were to take the matter to court, the King James could be proven as God's infallible word. There is more evidence to prove this book as his word because, it is his word. Now, if one has a question about scripture, it can be found in the KJ. It is perfect in the doctrine of the faith. All pieces support eachother. Many claim there are contradictions, but it is not so when it comes to matters which pertain to the faith. The men who translated the KJ, had many more transcripts to work with then translators after the KJ. The men who translated the KJ did not have any hidden agendas, nor were they bias as to bringing this work into print. Their only driving intention was to try to get it right or as close to the original as they could. The majority of translations after were tainted with evolutionism and spiritualism. For if the original is corrupt, the rest will be corrupt. So if a translator is bias in the belief of evolution and spiritualism, his translation will be corrupt. There was a great man of God, who's name was Tindale, who gave his life for the gospel. If one does not believe that this was a man of God, then how can one know God. God used this man, and there is no doubt in my mind he did, and the proof is his own translation. When the translators had completed the work of the translation into English, it was almost identical to that of Tindale. I believe the day that Tindale was put to death for the faith, just as Jesus stood at the right side of the Father, he did the same for Tindale. If the devil can make people not believe that this is the infallible word of God, he can create confusion and steal the souls of men, and he did. Men have been believing his lies since the garden and they will continue to believe his lies to their graves.

Hello Heiscomingintheclouds,

Brother, I use the KJV and the Strong's Concordance w/Hebrew and Greek dictionaries almost exclusively. I like the KJV but to say that it is the infallible word of God, and that it is unbiased, I'm not so sure. The KJV is nothing more than a revision of the Bishop's bible. The KJV is NOT a new translation. Don't take my word for it do your research.

To prove that the KJV is biased let's look at Acts 7:59.
59And they stoned Stephen , calling upon God, and saying , Lord Jesus , receive my spirit .

So according to this passage, Stephen addressed God as Lord Jesus. This is one of many passages I've seen people use to prove that Jesus is God. But the word “God” in this passage is in ITALIC, meaning it was added by the translators. Now I don't have a problem with translators adding words to help us better understand the text, as translating from Greek to English is a difficult task, but Acts 7:59 is an example of clear bias.

There are also mistranslations in the KJV.

Example, Exodus 15:3 says that “God is a man of war”. But Numbers 23:19 and Hosea 11:9 say that “God is NOT a man”.

Then we also have the 1John 5:7 passage which many scholors believe was added sometime in the 1500's. Who are we to say the scholars are lying about this passage. Knowing the history of the corruption of the church around that time frame, It wouldn't suprise me in the least to find out that it was added.

Just my 2 cents

[Woutlaw]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 04 2006,20:05)

Hi, I believe that the book of Acts shows the work of the Holy Spirit among men, and I believe that Spirit and the gifts and fruit are still available to men and are meant to be being used to show that the religion of God is one of real power unto health and salvation.

I do too brother,

It is so sad that many don't even bother to read or study the book of Acts which clearly lays out God's plan for salvation. I don't see anyone in the book “praying Jesus into their heart”, or any other crafty plan of salvation!!!!!!!!!1

[Woutlaw]

Quote (typrsn @ Aug. 04 2006,19:44)

Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ Aug. 04 2006,16:39) Consider what you may, but consider this as well. No place does it say that if you do not speak in tongues that you have not recieved the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Your zealousness in wonderful, but to teach things that are contrary to the word of God is not wonderful. I have battled with some who were under the belief that is was with water that saves us. This is rediculous. Now you are making the claim that one must be baptized in the Holy Spirit to be saved. This is rediculous. It is by faith we are saved. It is the free gift from God. It comes by believing in Christ. We are born again by asking him for forgiveness of our sins. He cleanses us with his blood. He resides in our hearts. There is no other name that can save us. Can you recieve the Holy Spirit without asking Christ into your heart and be forgiven, sanctified, made holy, frist. No. The Holy Spirit of God cannot come into an unclean vessel. It must first be made Holy. And it is made Holy through the blood of Christ. Jesus said, no man can come to the Father, but through me. H, I will respond to this post and the one below. After that I am through with this particular discussion with you as I have plenty of other things to do (as I'm sure you do as well) than go back and forth over these issues. I'd rather be a good steward of the time that God has allotted me here on earth. Regardless of what I say, you will not be persuaded anyway. All things will be disclosed when the Judge comes. First of all, when did I ever say anything about tongues? You assumed something, correct? What was your assumption based upon? Is it wrong to assume? If the answer is yes. Then you were wrong to assume that I was referring to tongues when I did not mention the subject one time in any of my posts. (Think about the profoundness of what I just said). I do have a zeal of God, but it is according to the knowledge of God (Rom. 10:2,3). I never said water in and of itself saved anybody. It is faith that saves. Faith unfeigned is the prerequisite. Jesus said “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned (Mark 16:16). So even if a person is baptized, they are not saved unless they believe (Acts 8:36,37). True faith produces obedience as the writer mentions in Hebrews 11. Do you think Noah and his family would have been saved if he would not have prepared the ark (Heb. 11:7; 1Pet. 3:21)? Those of old obtained a good report through their faith that caused them to do something (Heb. 11:2). Everything we receive from God, we receive by faith. Why you think He tells us in Is. 55:1 “Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price”? What do we buy with? We buy with our faith. What money is in the natural economy, faith is in the spiritual. Without faith we need not expect to receive anything from God (Heb. 11:6; James 1:5-7; Mark 5:34; Luke 5:20; Luke 18:42; Mark 10:52; Matt. 9:22; Heb. 4:2).

Amen typrsn,

Faith and Obedience go hand in hand. I've been saying it all along how important obedience is. I challenge anyone to look at the men of the Bible that God used, and you will see a few common things. #1, they believed God, #2 they obeyed God. Noah did, Abraham did, Moses did, Elijah did, what makes us think we're any different.

WATER SAVES NO ONE. It's not about the water folks, it's all about the heart. God is simply looking for hearts who believe and obey.

To give you an example of what i'm trying to say, let's look at Tithing. Why do we tithe or give? Folks God doesn't need your money. We serve a God who can raise up children of Abraham out of stones. Now if God can do that, believe me, he doesn't need our money. So why do we tithe or give? I believe God uses outward actions to teach us inward qualities or characteristics. God calls us to tithe because he's trying to make you a giver like he is.

I believe the same can be applied to water baptism. God is using this vehicle to teach us about obedience which is key in having a relationship with God Almighty. I've said it before and I'll say it again, ANYONE WHO DARE SAYS THAT OBEYING GOD ISN'T IMPORTANT, IS FILLED WITH A DECIEVING SPIRIT.

Shalom

[Woutlaw]

Quote (seminarian @ July 22 2006,22:53)

Ken, I think we're talking about two different things here.  I'm not sure what your point is but I think I was pretty clear in saying that only GOD knows the heart and He is the ultimate judge through Christ. As a Biblical example, I mentioned  salvation came to the thief on the cross alongside Christ and there was no water there either.  People who became Jesus' disciples were being baptised by John so I believe it was a requirement even then.  I also quoted Romans 10:9 as the Biblical confession of faith unto salvation A LONG TIME AGO. Read my post again. I was speaking of you saying Nick didn't have Christ in his heart which is just plain wrong and I stand by that.  Paul says we can not even discern our OWN motives so I think it very risky to try to say we know our brother's. Let's move on because this is getting a little wierd already. Best, Semmy

Amen Semmy,

I think it is wrong and just plain ignorant to try and judge someone else's heart.

Water Baptism was ordained by God through Christ. It was commanded without a doubt. If we truly believe and fear God we will obey end of story.

Obedience is important
Acts 5:32, Hebrews 5:9

I think now's a good time to drop this matter.

[Woutlaw]

wow, Nick

your island is beautiful, when can I move in???

[Woutlaw]

yes indeed brothers,

St. Louis can get really hot. It's also a Catholic dominated town.

[Woutlaw]

Quote (kenrch @ July 09 2006,18:34)

Qyestion: What is the “sinners” prayer for? What do scriptures like this mean? Rom 10:9  because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved:  for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; “and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation”. Don't you have to confess Jesus before baptism? And Again if something should happen and you can't get to water then are your doomed?  That is so ridiculous it isn't even funny! I'll stick with scripture:   “if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved”: If you can get baptized and don't then that is a different matter.  But if you cannot, through no fault of your own, and the flesh perishes, then that soul will be with GOD! You don't know the heart of ANYONE only God knows that. This isn't my opinion it's scripture:   believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, THOU SHALT BE SAVED. Don't argue with me (I'm just a servant) argue with the Word of God.   Again If your son (and I'll bet that it happens) accepted Christ, was in an accident and died. If it were left up to you! Would your son go to hell? You may say yes but if it would happen then that would be another story!  I guarantee it! It's always easy to holler while on the other side of the wall!  But just wait until the door opens.

kenrch,

I will address the scriptures from my humble understanding.

#1, Nick hit the nail on the head, Romans was written to a body of believers not unbelievers.

Romans 10:9 is one of the most abused scriptures of all time.

It says, “that if you confess with you mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you WILL be or SHALL be saved.

It doesn't say you ARE saved.

WILL or SHALL BE implies future tense as in a promise of something.

Many who abuse this scripture also fail to quote verse 10, which states, “for with the heart man believes UNTO righteousness.

This means that a believing heart leads TO righteousness.

Let's read the rest, “and with the mouth confession is made UNTO salvation.

This means that the Good confession, That Jesus is Lord, leads TO salvation.

On the other hand, let me address a scripture commonly abused by those who say that water baptism saves.

Mark 16:16 says, “Whoever believes and is baptized WILL BE saved, but he that believes not stands codemned.

just because one believes and is immersed, doesn't mean that he is saved. It says WILL BE, again implying future tense as in a promise.

This passage also seems to tie a link between belief and baptism. It's as if they go hand in hand. WATER BAPTISM doesn't save us but it is commanded by the Lord Jesus and his apostles. If we truly have REAL SAVING FAITH, WE WILL OBEY PERIOD. REAL SAVING FAITH AND OBEDIENCE ARE ONE. THEY GO HAND IN HAND.

“Whoever believes not stands condemned”. To this I say amen
because if true faith and obedience are one, then no faith =nofaith +no obedience. This is why you don't see the word “baptized” in the second half of this passage.

My brothers, it is TRUE FAITH THAT WILL SAVE US.

TRUE FAITH OBEYS
TRUE FAITH ENDURES HARDSHIPS, TRIALS AND TRIBULATIONS.
TRUE FAITH WORKS
TRUE FAITH ISN'T JUST VERBAL OR MENTAL, IT IS VISIBLE.

TRUE FAITH IS NOT “PRAYING JESUS INTO YOUR HEART”
TRUE FAITH IS NOT JUST GETTING IMMERSED OR DIPPED
TRUE FAITH IS NOT GIVING 10% OF YOUR SALARY
TRUE FAITH IS NOT WARMING A CHURCH PEW EVERY SUNDAY
TRUE FAITH IS NOT BELIEVING IN A TRINITY
TRUE FAITH IS NOT JUST BELIEVING IN GOD

The multitudes believed in Jesus, they saw the miracles that God did through him. They followed him all over the place. But when he taught them about the cost of following him, what did they say? “This is a hard teaching, who can follow it.” Then they abandoned him. They didn't have TRUE FAITH

The bible tell us that the all of Judea and all the region around Jordan, came to be baptized by John, and CONFESSED their sins. Yet in Act 1:15, it tells us that the # of believers was 120!!!!! What happened to all of those others???
They didn't have TRUE FAITH

What about those of whom Jesus talked about in Matthew 7:21-22. “Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kindgom of heaven, but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. MANY will say to me in that day (The day of the Lord) Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? And in thy name cast out devils? And in your name done many marvelous works?

Prophesy, casting out demons, and doing marvelous works (including miracles), guys these were the signs that were to follow the believers !!!!!!

And then our Lord Jesus drops the bomb on them. “I never know you, away from me you doers of INIQUITY !!!!!!! WOW
They didn't have TRUE FAITH

I'm starting to understand the passage that says “Many are called but few are chosen.”

May we be among those found faithful, may we be in that #, when the saints go marching in.

Shalom

[Woutlaw]

Quote (Dunno @ July 08 2006,02:46)

Quote (Woutlaw @ July 07 2006,21:02) I am after God's truth and his truth only. If “praying Jesus into your heart” is scriptural, then amen, I will gladly accept this and admit my error. Hi! WL I do not believe that the phrase “accept Jesus into your heart” originated with my particular Post. I do believe the particular phrase may have been inadvertently framed by Nick in his attempt to question what was originally stated by myself as merely, “accepting Jesus”. Evidently, Nick's Doctrinal-Lie-Detector tilted a bit with my choice of words. My apologies.

Dunno,

If “Accepting Christ” = believing Jesus is the Christ+repenting+obeying his commands and teachings, then I have no problem with it at all.

But if “Accepting Christ” = saying a prayer (sinner's prayer), I have a major problem with it.

[Woutlaw]

Quote (seminarian @ July 08 2006,05:41)

Here, here Nick & T8! We do what we can but I know God puts us in places to let the light shine.  If we are going to be cowards and not speak the truth, what good are we to God and His Son Jesus? You can put the truth out there but pride which is Satan's blindfold, will keep people from seeing it.  Remember I asked the Pastor of Education if Jesus has a God?  He wouldn't answer at first then I asked him again.  Do you know he said “No”?  What??  He said all those scriptures about Jesus calling the Father, his God were from his years on earth as a man.  Really?  Well,  I quickly took him to: Revelation 1:6 (English-NIV) and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen. And…. Revelation 3:12 (English-NIV) Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name. Uh huh, and he is still calling God, his GOD and his Father!  Now what's up with that?  I told Pastor o' Education, in matters like this, I'll go with what the Bible actually said.  Lord help me. If the teachers are this messed up, what about the congregation?  I feel so sorry for people who really do not know the ONE true God, not some fictional triune thing that nobody can understand therefore they cannot worship.  This is exactly what Satan wants. I'm about ready to yell, “Check please!”  I want to finish the Minister Cert. course I signed up for and I enjoy helping people at that church.  I'm an alter worker and part of the intecessory prayer team.  I also minister with them when they go to nursing homes.   Once I'm ordained, I will just tell them I need to spend more time in my own ministry and leave.  Are there any Christian Unitarian fellowships in the USA, specifically the New York area?  I am not interested in the Unitarian Universalists but fellowships that believe in the Bible the way you both do.  Any ideas?  Even if I went once a month it would be worth it.  The problem I've found is the worship and prayer is usually pretty lame in some of these groups.  For example I served a very small home fellowship of Biblical Unitarians.  They didn't want to sing or worship and seemed to lack respect for the Word.  Everything was VERY mechanical with them and they worship Wierwille.  No, I want people on fire for God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Thanks guys for letting me vent! Semmy

Exhale my brother,

I love to hear those who bear the truth and are on fire for God. Vent on my brother, I pray for you often.

God Bless

[Woutlaw]

heiscomingintheclouds ,

let me first say that I love all you brothers the same. I don't show partiality to anyone. However I don't think it is right to condemn someone for not attending a fellowship when there isn't one in their area who teaches sound doctrine. Again, the bible tells us to not forsake the gathering of believers. It also says in proverbs 27:17, “As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.” I don't think T8 and Nick are against fellowshipping, it's just they don't have a congregation that teaches sound doctrine in their area.

And I'm sure they, like me, are not willing to compromise their beliefs just for the sake of fellowship. Where I live heiscomingintheclouds , I have only 2 choices, Trinitarian, or Oneness.

Again, i'm not against fellowshipping, God knows I would love nothing more than to have brothers physically present with me. But I don't believe if a person takes a stand against false teaching and resist fellowshipping with such, his salvation is in danger.

Wasn't our brother the Apostle John condemned to seclusion on the island of Patmos? There wasn't anyone there for him to fellowship with was there? Didn't he keep the faith although he had no fellowship?

[Woutlaw]

I am after God's truth and his truth only. If “praying Jesus into your heart” is scriptural, then amen, I will gladly accept this and admit my error.

[Woutlaw]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 08 2006,01:41)

Hi dunno, So where is “accepting Jesus ” written in the Word?  Does it mean believe? Does it save someone without repentance? Is this a new way? Your words “When a person accepts Jesus, something happens on the part of God. Abraham put his faith on those who were going to be born into the world. The expectation of a born again person is that he has become a child of God. Everything which now follows is represented and symbolised in baptism.”

amen Nick,

And that's the thing I keep hanging up on is the “accepting Christ into your heart” or “praying Jesus into your heart” thing. I just don't see this in scripture. Can any of you guys give me some scriptures to validate this practice? seriously, i'm not being sarcastic in any sense !!!!

[Woutlaw]

Quote (t8 @ July 07 2006,14:48)

Hi seminarian. Here is a simple but effective test. Replace the word 'God' in the bible with 'Trinity' (or Father, Son, Holy Spirit) and then read a random collection of verses that have the word God in them. E.g., John 14:1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. OK, so trust in the (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) and also in me. That makes 4. Who is 'me', if the son is already mentioned? John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. So the Trinity so loved the world that the Trinity gave his son. That makes 4. Given this reasoning there must be 2 sons. Colossians 1:3 We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, So the Trinity is the Father of Jesus. But wait isn't Jesus part of the Trinity? All verses that mention God and his son are rendered meaningless with a Trinitarian understanding. But Trinitarians do actually interpret God in these verses as the Father out of necessity, but not in the verses that do not mention the son. E.g., 1 John 2:17 The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever. A Trinitarian would most likely say that this was the Father, Son, & Spirit. But they would also probably say that the following verse is only the Father. Revelation 1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, Isn't that the weirdest thing. God is the Trinity except when the son is also mentioned. Coincidence or simply picking and choosing the meaning depending on what their itching ears want to hear? I leave you with the following verse for encouragement: 1 John 5 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.

Amen T8,

This is out of sight. I never would have been clever to think of such. Cool beans man

[Woutlaw]

Quote (seminarian @ July 07 2006,04:17)

Lode Runner, You said: My core argument is that the doctrine of the Trinity is integral to any belief that salvation can come by believing on Christ. Oh really?  Please indicate where the word, trinity, triune, three Gods in one, One God in three is found translated in any part of Holy Scripture?  Inferences are not acceptable as they are subjective.  I want the actual word found in Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek, your choice. You said:  “God the Son is one with the Father, of the same likeness and substance, and yet a seperate person.  He was not created, but begotten eternally of the Father.” Whoops, there you go again!  Our Lord and Savior is called the SON OF GOD more than 49 times in the New Testament.  NOT ONCE  is he EVER called God the Son as you say here.  This is merely a manmade trinitarian formula which found nowhere in scripture.  Also how is someone eternally begotten?  Please try again. You may wish to read the Apostles Creed which was the first written by the Roman Catholic Church,(the Apostles actually didn't write this).  They clearly say God is the Father and Jesus Christ is His Son. Next they wrote the Nicean Creed in 325 AD and MADE the Lord Jesus a God Co-equal with the Father.  No mention of any Holy Ghost so I guess they forgot about him. Finally the full blown trinitarian nonsense came about in about 481 AD.  Now, if this was a teaching held by the apostles and Christ, why did it develop and morph from a unitarian to a trinitarian creed centuries after the apostles died?  Also why is this formula nowhere to be found in scripture? The answers are obvious.  The trinity was never believed by early Christians but reflected the pagan influnces of the Greeks, Romans, and every one else who worshipped triads of gods.  The Hebrew people were fiercly monotheistic.  Hear O Israel the LORD our God is ONE,(not three in one, one in three substances or any other combination.)  Our God is ONE and I hope He is yours too. Bless you, Semmy

Amen Semmy,

Our first century bretheren were undeniably unitarian. Paul constantly warned us of a GREAT apostasy or a GREAT falling away from the truth. The Nicene Creed was the beginning of such.

Shalom

[Woutlaw]

where in the world is David anyway?

[Woutlaw]

Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ July 07 2006,23:13)

It is finished.

what's finished???

[Author]

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