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[Tim2]

As I said on Monday, I'm no longer going to be posting on this website.  But I can't stay away from message boards, so I'll be at http://www.christianforums.com/, still as “Tim2.”      

I really hope everyone comes there to talk about these issues.  It's an orthodox website, in that it follows the Nicene Creed, so hopefully you'll be able to give them all your hardest challenges to the Trinity, and hopefully they'll provide answers (or questions) that will help you reconsider your stance on who Jesus is.  

One thing everyone might find helpful is that they have strict rules for politeness in posts, something I think we'd all benefit from.

See you there.

Tim

[Tim2]

Well this is explicit polytheism coming straight from the author of this website.  Unbelievable.  What part of “There is no God besides Me” don't you understand?  I suppose you think that bellies are actually gods too?  

Who in their right mind would listen to someone going around saying “***** is a god.”  It's so awful I can't even write it.  What is wrong with you?  Do you really think you can escape the fires of hell going around writing crap like that?  

I'm done with this website.  Repent or perish.

Tim

[Tim2]

My response is based on the fact that a vision in which a man is seduced by a woman is claimed to show the love of God. I don't think so.

[Tim2]

Hi Martian,

I hope that you are not the one who had this vision. It is clearly a ruse of the devil, preying on someone in a vulnerable emotional state. The story of the man seduced by the harlot in Proverbs 2, 5, and 7 comes to mind. I also recall Paul's warning not to take your stand on visions you have seen (Colossians 2:18). And, of course, even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 2 Corinthians 11:4.

We're most vulnerable when we are led by our emotions. The Bible is clear that wisdom and understanding are the path for God's people. We can't let our emotions trick us like this.

Tim

[Tim2]

Martian,

How is it that Jesus laid the foundation of the earth?

Tim

[Tim2]

May God be with in your endeavor to proclaim the truth of the ecumenical creeds, Lamontre.

“Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
Saying, Go unto this people, and say, 'Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.“

Acts 28:25-27

[Tim2]

It is not constructive to accuse the English translation of Chalcedon of error and then not offer any supporting evidence whatsoever.

[Tim2]

Not3in1,

I guess you're ignoring me, as I am ignoring Nick?  That's all I can figure from the fact that you don't respond to any of my posts reaching out to you.  Fine, then just receive this last warning from someone who loves you and wants to see you come back to church and join the true family of God.  Nick and t8 are not your friends, even if they've made you an associate member here.  They are trying to kill you by deceiving you with damnable heresies.  The people here are not the family of God.  They are stubborn sinners who refuse to accept that Jesus is God and would rather burn for all eternity than worship Him.  Every single one of them will burn in hell for all eternity if they do not repent of their blasphemies.  The ecumenical creeds state the truth of Scripture.  You and everyone else here have your own creeds too (credo means “I believe”), but they are lies.  Repent of them and believe the truth:  The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

Tim

[Tim2]

Quote (lamontre @ June 12 2007,10:06)

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 12 2007,09:39) Quote (lamontre @ June 12 2007,08:27) And if God has a son He is  in nature? Each after his own kind, is I believe God's law. LM, Regarding “each after his own kind” – God/God = God (not possible because there is only One God) Mary/God = Divine Man Fully both/no mix/fake conception/non scriptural = incarnation…..God in human flesh. Mix of both God and Man/true conception/scriptural = Divine Man…..Jesus! God wanted a true Son who had his nature – yes.  He also wanted a Son who had our nature (so he could be our Mediator and High Priest)…….how could he go about accomplishing this?  By coming himself?  No, by having a true son who is both him and mankind. I agree completely. However, he did not carry the Adamic sin curse.

Lamontre,

Do you agree with the Definition of Chalcedon?

Tim

[Tim2]

Hi Lamontre,

Welcome.  I believe in the Trinity as confessed in the ecumenical creeds, and I hope you do too.  It's been painful to watch the dialogue in response to your posts, as nobody is actually responding to the statements of Scripture, but I guess that's just how things tend to flow around here (but now always). I hope you have the stomach for it.

More importantly, I hope you've come here to proclaim the truth of the Trinity and to correct those who have been deceived into denying that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the one true God.  

Tim

[Tim2]

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Tim is definitly relunctant to have me be a part of the same family of God!

Not3in1, I am not reluctant to have you be a part of the family of God.  I would like very much for you to join the family of God.  That is why I am telling you that your beliefs are wrong and you need to repent.  

It has distressed me to listen to you talk about me on this forum without responding to me directly.  I posted a message for you on this thread last week, trying to reach out to you so you understand where I'm coming from.  Can you please respond to it?

Thanks,
Tim

[Tim2]

Not3in1,

Please listen to what I have to say.  I hope, by the grace of God, to write to you now in love, which to me means saving you and everyone who reads this from going to hell.  I think you would agree, hypothetically, that warning someone who doesn't believe the gospel that they are going to hell is an act of love.  Do you agree?  I hope you would also agree that this means telling the person that they are not part of God's family and thus that they are not the brother or sister of God's children.  Do you agree?

Now we know that there are false gospels and false Christs.  Galatians 1:9.  2 Corinthians 11:4.  The penalty for teaching these is to be accursed.  The penalty for believing in one of these false gospels, that you must receive circumcision and be justified by the law, is to be “severed from Christ” and “fallen from grace.”  Galatians 5:4.  Another penalty for those are deceived by the beast and who worship him is to drink the wine of the wrath of God.  Revelation 14:10.  

Now warnings such as these in the Bible should cause us to tremble.  As Jesus says, “Fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!” Luke 12:5.  So yes, I am afraid of the wrath of God, but not nearly as much as I should be.  And yes, this fear is my primary motive in posting in this forum.  But I hope you can understand how that is also love.

Now with regard to our specific situation, I am certain that you believe in a false gospel and a false Jesus.  The exact details of the false gospel you believe may not be spelled out in Scripture, but that does not make it acceptable.  There are an infinite number of heresies that can be concocted by denying Scripture, and they are all condemned.  As long as your are deviating from the truth, that Jesus was God in the beginning and remains so for all eternity, then you are not in a state of salvation.  Nor are you the sister of those who are in Christ.  This is harsh but it is the truth.  If I did not tell you this, that would be an act of hatred.

Condemnation of heretics and blasphemers has been mandated from the earliest history of Israel and has been administered by the church to the present day.  The original Nicene Creed condemned all those who denied it.  The Fifth Ecumenical Council condemned a host of heretics.  The Athanasian Creed condemns all who do not accept it.  These creeds have been accepted by millions of Christians for 1700 years, and the early church was equally as vigilant in condemning the gnostics.  This is a sad but necessary history, for the church does not have the ministry of condemnation but of reconciliation.  But the fact remains that those who do not believe in the gospel are already condemned.

It pains me to hear you get so upset at my posts, but I have to keep telling you the truth that has been proclaimed for 2000 years.  So I do urge you, with all my heart, please, repent of your false doctrine and accept the one true Jesus.  He is the true God and eternal life.

Tim

[Tim2]

Student,

You've come to the wrong place.  This is not a Christian website.  It is a wicked pagan website full of heretics and blasphemers who deny that Jesus is one with the Father.  Your best bet is to flee from this website, block it from your computer, and never come back.  Instead, talk to the pastor and elders of your church, and read the Christian classics on the Trinity by Athanasius, Hillary of Poitiers, Gregory of Nyssa, and Augustine.

Tim

[Tim2]

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Christ has proceeded as a lesser Son.

This blasphemy is becoming unbearable.

[Tim2]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 06 2007,06:04)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 06 2007,05:59) You say the Holy Spirit is the Father then why do you keep calling him the Holy Spirit, why not just call him Father? That's a good idea!  Can we try that and see if it works?  Everywhere you see the holy Spirit – replace it with God or Father.  Would it work?

No, it wouldn't work. That's what is so painfully clear in the three verses I cited.

[Tim2]

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Tim2, as you must know, the term “hypostasis” has been considered a dis-service to the Trinity doctrine. Read your history – the history that created the creeds.

Sure, I believe that some people have considered hypostasis to be a disservice to the Trinity doctrine. Plenty of others haven't. What has that got to do with the fact that it's in the Bible? That's all I said.

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I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

No you don't. You insult Him by saying He is just the male offspring of the Father and Mary. You're not my sister, but you can be if you repent and believe that Jesus is the true Son of God, Who was God in the beginning and changes not.

Tim

[Tim2]

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I am a sinner as the biblical definition of sin, which is that I have missed the mark, but I am not evil.

Matthew 7:11 -“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children …”

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You elude to other motives that might be included, but give no examples. The possibility that there might be more to God’s motives in no way diminishes those that I have listed.

I didn't say that God has more motives than you listed, I said that His ways are unfathomable.  So to claim that you have fathomed the motives and intentions of God is wrong.  Of course we know that He is just and He is Love, but to think that you can start with this very general understanding and declare that it would be unjust and unloving for God to become a man and refuse to consider any Scriptures that might say otherwise is wrong.

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I am sorry if you do not know God’s love. Perhaps that is part of the problem and why you insist on proving scripture from an intellectual standpoint rather then by the heart of God.

None of us knows the heart of God so well that we can ignore passages of the Bible that say Jesus created heaven and earth.  And even Paul said God's judgments are unsearchable and His ways are unfathomable.  

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That perfection comes through following Christ and becoming like Him.

Well let's be clear that perfection comes from the Holy Spirit.  Romans 8:4.  It is not a matter of us striving to imitate Christ under our own fleshly power.

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The fact that Chris is prophet king and priest does not mean those are not examples for us. We are to be kings and priests and Paul enchorages us to prophecy.

In a sense these ministries are examples for us, but that is not their main point.  The point is for Christ to be those things Himself.

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Do you have scripture that contradicts these motives of God? Do you have scripture that says these motives are not accurate? Post them

Well I think I've already posted several that suggest that becoming an example was not Christ's top priority.  But what you've listed is too general and vague to conclude that it is not possible for God to have become a man.  Again, can't you just admit that you don't know for certain what would happen if the eternal Son of God took on flesh?  You might think it would be impossible for Him to remain God and become human, but if the Bible says He did not change, isn't that enough?  The problem is you think you know too much to allow Scripture to say what it says.  If Jesus laid the foundation of the earth, He's not just a man.  If He took on flesh and blood, that means He wasn't flesh and blood before He partook of them!

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Don’t you think it important to understand the original languages, cultures and mindset of the writers to understand what they were trying to convey?

Of course, that's why I trust the scholars over the millenia who have studied the original languages, and better yet, people who actually spoke that language while they were alive, like Athanasius!  

Tim

[Tim2]

Hi Ken,

The website claims that Christians from their earliest history observed the first day of the week as the Lord's Day, and you seem to confirm this with your quotes from Acts and 1 Corinthians. So do you admit that neither Constantine nor the Pope changed the Lord's Day from the last day to the first day?

Tim

[Tim2]

Pardon my jumping in here but it looks like WJ is being ganged up on.  Are you debating whether the Holy Spirit is a separate existence/subsistence from the Father and the Son?  If so, John 14-16 have always been the clearest to me on this point

John 14:16 -“I will ask the Father, and He will send you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;  the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot see because it does not see Him or know Him …”  (Clearly the Helper is neither the Father nor the Son.)

John 14:26 -“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.”  (Again, the Holy Spirit is clearly not the Father nor the Son.)

John 15:26 -“When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me.”  (This is painfully clear.  The Holy Spirit is not the Father, nor is He the Son.)

Tim

[Tim2]

Hi Martian,

Our good friend Athanasius has shown us some of the purposes of Christ's coming to earth:

John 6:38-40 -“I came down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of Him that sent Me.  And this is the Father's will which hath sent Me, that of all which He hath given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.  And this is the will of Him which sent Me, that everyone which seeth the Son and believeth on Him may have everlasting life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

John 12:46 -“I come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on Me should not abide in darkness.”

John 18:37 -“To this end I was born, and for this cause I came into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth.”

1 John 3:8 -“For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.”

Hebrews 2:14,15 -“Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is the devil; and deliver them who, through fear of death, were all their lifetime subject to bondage.”

Romans 8:3,4 -“For what the Law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit.”  

Athanasius comments, “This, then, was the reason why the Saviour came among men, to bear witness to the truth of God, to die upon the cross for our redemption, to raise up from the dead, and defeate all the machinations of the devil.  Had it not been for these ends, He had never assumed flesh; had not the resurrection of His body been necessary for ours, He had not died; and He could not have died unless He had taken upon Himself a mortal body.”  From “Against the Arians,” page 146-147.

Tim

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