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[Silentbeard]

I just read the most recent stuff… wow.

You (Gene) have a slight problem. Yes, Jesus did not know something's while He was a man, but He was still 100% God. He was the Godman. 100% God and 100% man. He knew everything, but for the sake of our souls, He gave up some of that knowledge for a time, such as the date of His return. But to say that we know more than the apostles did is Heresy. Paul went up to Heaven and talked to Jesus AFTER His resurrection! (2 Corinthians 2: 1-3)

You seem to be arguing that we are smarter than Jesus and Paul… Paul got His message from Jesus when Jesus had all His glory and knowledge returned. Yes, Paul didn't know everything (like E=MC2) but He knew God in a way that none of the rest of mankind (except Jesus, as He was God) have known. Obviously, God is infinite and finite man cannot grasp him, but that does not matter, we know less than Paul did about God, please explain all of Pauls letters to me without saying even once “I am not sure”.

[Silentbeard]

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Christ speaks of the “whole body” being “cast into hell.” (Matthew 5:29-30.)  If it be replied that the body would be destroyed by the flames, and therefore only the spirit would be left, we ask for the Bible proof that spirits, or souls, are impervious to fire.  Christ declared we should “fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” Matthew 10:28.  If “destroy” means consume as regards the “body”, we demand very clear proof if we are expected to believe that “destroy” means to leave unconsumed as regards the “soul.”  A failure to produce such proof really takes the whole point out of the objection based on Mark 9 and Isaiah 66. In Mark 9:43-48 Christ quite evidently refers to the same judgment fires as those described in Isaiah 66:24, where we read:  “They [the righteous] shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses [“dead bodies,” A.R.V.] of the men that have transgressed against me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched.”  We are told in so many words that the agencies of “work” and “fire” are working, not upon disembodied spirits, but upon bodies, dead bodies. The word “hell” used in Mark 9:43-48 is from the Greek word Gehenna.  This term, as we have learned, is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word Hinnom, the name of a valley near Jerusalem, “used as a place to cast carcasses of animals and malefactors, which were consumed by fire constantly kept up.” (See Liddell and Scott’s Greek Lexicon.) Christ here uses this valley of Hinnom to teach His hearers the fate that awaits the wicked.  Certainly the Jews who heard His words could not possibly have obtained any idea of wicked, disembodied souls endlessly suffering.  They saw in Hinnom dead bodies being devoured by flames, or if the flames did not reach them, then by worms, those ever-present agents of destruction and disintegration.  The fact that the fires of Gehenna were ever kept burning, were “not quenched,” was the surest proof that whatever was cast into them would be entirely consumed.  To declare that if a fire keeps ever burning, then whatever is cast into it keeps ever living, is to go contrary both to the evidence of our senses and to the testimony of Scripture. The question may now be asked:  If whatever is cast into this fire is completely consumed, why will the fire always be kept burning?  The answer is, it will not.  A city-wide conflagration once enveloped Chicago.  If we should describe that fire by saying that the flames could not be quenched, would you conclude that Chicago was still burning?  No, you would simply understand that the fire raged until it had devoured everything within reach.  Common knowledge makes unnecessary the additional statement that the fire itself then died down.

Your whole argument falls apart in the fact that the unrighteous will have a resurrection, why would they have one unless they get bodies that are able to burn eternally?  (Acts 24:15)  Their bodies will be like our resureccted bodies, indestructable.  The only difference will be the purpose they serve.  One to eternal death (seperation) and the other unto eternal life.

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No. Because the scriptures give us the penalty for sin. But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Gen 2:17 God never mentions eternal torment to Adam or to Moses in the law. For the wages of sin is death; (not eternal torment), but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom 6:23

You are simply using an argument from silence which is not the best idea in a debate.  I could just as easily say “The bible never says to drive a car, thus, driving a car is not biblical!”  To use the argument “it isn't directely mentioned in the bible” is foolishness.  I could use that same argument for masturbation, “it isn't directely mentioned in the Bible, thus i can masterbate all the time”.  Obviously, because of IMPLICATION we know it is wrong.  So it is with Hell being Eternal.

Furthermore, your use of the passage in Genesis is not helping.  What is death but seperation? (James 2:26)  What happend when Adam and Eve ate of the fruit?  They were seperated from God physically and spiritually, thus needing Christ to reconcile them.  God had grace though that He did not fully kill them, as in they were left alive physically, giving them a chance for redemption.

Besides all that, you still have the problem of pure logic. Logic dictates that God, to remain Holy and Just, must give a punishment equal to the crime. God is infinite in worth, thus offending Him would require an equal punishment, infinite. Only in one place is the Bible illogical, God loving an evil sinner like me, that makes no sense, but I thank God for it.

Please explain to me the error in that logic- God is infinite in worth, an offense to Him requires infinite puniushment.

[Silentbeard]

Mar 9:48  “where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.”

That is all I am going to say about your reference to the original greek WorshippingJesus.  Try and tell me that doesn't mean forever.

As for your argument that Jesus would have had to be punished for eternity –
Hebrews 7:27-28  “He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself.  For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever.”

Hebrews 9:12-14  “He entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.  For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God. ”

Hebrews 10:10-13  “And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.  But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. ”

It appears that Christ offered Himself up through the Eternal Spirit once and for all, paying the infinite price.  Because He offered Himself up through the Eternal Spirit, thus He meets the criteria of the infinite punishment.  In other words
-infinite+ infinite= 0  Christ paid the infinte cost.

Chosenone, I understand the delay… kids are a handful, I should know… I'm a teen

You are speaking the truth, Jesus will abolish death, but let us first look at what death is.  Death would best be described as seperation as seen in James 2:26  “For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.”

So the definition of death is this- seperation of two things.  The death we experince in this life is seperation of body and spirit (which Christ will abolish), but the second death that te unregenerant will face is seperation of man from the presence of God's love.  God will be present in hell, His wrath though, not His love.  Christ in no place says He will abolish that.

As for the passage in Romans, you put an emphasis on the part about Jesus Christ's faith, yet you ignore the very next words.  Look at it again-
22 “yet a righteousness of God through Jesus Christ's faith, for all, and on all who are believing, for there is no distinction,”

It says that this righteousness is put on those who believe, all who believe.  Furthermore, it is also translated- “faith in Jesus Christ” or “the faithfulness of Jesus Christ”.  Depending on your translation will determine what you make of it.  For the record, most translations use “faith in Jesus Christ”.  That doesn't mean it is right, but…  

For the translation of “the faithfulness of Jesus Christ”.  I would completely agree, He was faithfull unto death, even death on a cross.  His faithfulness brought about our redemption.

I will state my argument again-
God is infinite in glory and honor and worth, if He wasn't, He wouldn't be God.  That is the bases for the argument.  Now, if I punch a hobo, what will happen?  I will get punched back.  If I punch the president, what will happen?  I will get attacked by the secret service, some jail time and a nice interegation involving questions about terrorists.  

Why would that happen?  Because the president has more value and worth than the president.  

Now, lets say I go up to God and punch Him (sin agianst Him), what would the punishment be for punching a God with infinite value?  Would the punishment not be infinite?

God bless,
Silent

[Silentbeard]

Quote (Hanoch @ July 25 2008,07:26)

SB Matthew 25:32  “Before him will be gathered all the nations (isn't this the word meaning Gentiles — and doesn't the resurrection consummate the , and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.” 1] I actually have questions concerning whether people will get out of hell (though not out of the lake of fire): is it possible, then, that Christians will be saved “but so as through fire”? in this way… Daniel 12:3 seems to disagree, saying that when the virgins arise (Matt 25:1-13)”… some to everlasting life and other to everlasting shame and contempt.” that the shame and contempt is eternal… 2] Is it possible that people can be cast into hell for a season – “…until they have paid the utterest farthing”? 2b] I have come to understand the first resurrection as being the judgment of believers — “judgment must begin at God's house.” so that at the second resurrection, it includes the bodies of those who'd died during the millenium and those who died without hearing about Christ – and “if any man's name was not found written in the Lamb's Book of Life” they are cast into the lake of fire. This means that some of them are going to be saved.

Ok, there is ALOT to say about all of that.  I will try to keep it as short as I can.

1.)  I don't understand your reasoning.  I agree with the conclusion that hell is eternal and everlasting… but your logic is going over my head. As for the “as through fire” part that just means that they are saved but they get nothing extra in heaven. They were saved by God's grace IN THIS LIFE, but they did nothing for Him IN THIS LIFE, thus they don't get the rewards that are spoken of in the Bible for doing good works.

2.)  Always put the reference of the verse you are using otherwise I can't really trust it.  I think I know what you are talking about.  Either this- Luke 12:59  “I tell you, you will never get out until you have paid the very last penny.” (there is an identical verse in Matthew) or Matthew 18:34  “And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay all his debt.”

Before I begin, remeber that no analogy is perfect, including Jesus' analogies.  I have yet to find a perfect analogy for anything.

For the first verse you must understand that God is infinite in value and when you sin against Him you must pay an infinite penalty or debt.  So the point in that verse is “you will have to be in hell till you pay off the debt.  Stinks for you though since you can't pay for it.”  Obviously Jesus wouldn't say it like that but you get the picture.

For the second verse, it said that before when he still had to pay the debt that he would be sold with his family and all he had.  But the punishment here is being given to the jailers, to different things entirerly.  The jailers probably are speaking of things that happen in this life.  When I continue in sin as God's child He disciplines me to teach me not to do that.  Some will say that “is my interpretation”.  But every verse must be taken in context of all of scripture.  All of scripture does not elude to an idea of purgatory as some will try to make this verse say.  If the rest of scripture does not speak of purgatory, we must assume that this does not speak of purgatory.

2.b) I don't exactly get what you are trying to say…

I am sorry, to be honest I don't exactly get what you are trying to get at at all. Are you trying to defend Universal Salvation? Purgatory? What?

[Silentbeard]

why has it gotten so silent?

[Silentbeard]

Quote (chosenone @ July 24 2008,07:00)

Hi Sb, Thanks for your reply.     When you quote scripture as in John 10:27, you must “correctly cut the word of truth” (2Tim.2:15).  This means we must distinguish “who is speaking, and to whom it was spoken”.  I hope you don't mind this explanation, but it is neccessary to understanding scripture.      Jesus' teachings were to the Jews, see Matt. 14:24 “I was not commissioned except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Jews).  In this era, His (Jesus) teachings were for the Jews only, (see Eph.2:11-12  Wherefore, remember that once you, the nations in flesh — who are termed 'Uncircumcision' by those termed 'Circumcision,' in flesh, made by hands — 12 that you were, in that era, apart from Christ, being alienated from the citizenship of Israel, and guests of the promise covenants, having no expectation, and without God in the world.     In this era, and scripture to the Jews, while they were under the 'law' and the 'old covenant' with God, their entrance to the “kingdom” was dependant on their obediance to the “law”.  Much different than our present situation, we are under “Grace”, not the law, as the Jews were in that era.  The point I am trying to make, is that scripture meant for the Jews, in that era (eon), was not the same as scripture to the “nations” (us) in todays era.  They were under the “law”,  while we are under “Grace”.       To clear this up, the 'old testament and the four gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, are for the “lost sheep of the house of Israel” and taught by Jesus.  Pauls epistles are for us “the nations”.      Now having said this, it doesn't mean that these scriptures should be ignored by us.  All scripture is FOR US, but all scripture is not ABOUT US.  All scripture is neccessary for us to understand what God is doing with His creation.  “All is of God, all is by Him, through Him, and for Him.”  (Ro.11:36)     I gave this explanation to show that much misunderstanding occurs when you apply scripture that was given to the Jews, that does not neccessarily apply to us today, and apply it to us.  They (Jews) were under the “Gospel of the kingdom” while we are under the “Gospel of Grace”.     I hope this will explain my reasons for disagreeing with some who apply all scripture as relevant to us today. God Bless,  Jerry.

Hi Jerry,
I know very much of the thing you are speaking of, I have to deal with people taking things out of context alot. It is refreshing to see someone who cares about that and I thank you for caring.

But you still have this small problem, when you look at all those verses in context (passage and history) their meaning remains the same. Christ said he would gather ALL THE NATIONS (not just the Jews) and seperate the sheep from the goats. Obviously sheep are saved and goats are not. Matthew 25:32.

Yes, Jesus came to minister to the Jews, but did He not heal Gentiles? Ex- Mark 7:26. So either Jesus was contradicting (impossible) or He came to the Jews but He also ministered to Jew, Samaritin (must I bring in the example?) and Gentile.

Also, how about verses that it doesn't matte abou their context because their meaning is plain such as Revelation 14:11 and Mark 9:48. Both those clearly state that Hell is eternal, it never ends. And then Revelation 21:8 shows us who is in this eternal Hell. Quick note, all the verses I am using are in my previous post… so just check them out there.

Also, you have YET to answer my argument about God's infinite worth requiring infinite punishment… I am very very persistant. Answer it.
Also, what is your response to Romans 3:26? Again I will state that it shows that only those who believe are justified.

[Silentbeard]

Quote (chosenone @ July 23 2008,15:49)

Quote (Silentbeard @ July 23 2008,14:42) Ok, I have not the patience to go through all the posts so I will deal with the verses at the beginning and throw in a little logic too… 1 Tim. 2:4  …our saviour, God, Who wills that all mankind be saved and come to the realization of the truth. That verse goes along with John 3:16… God wants all to be saved.  You have the problem though of this- Ephesians 2:3;5 and Colossians 2:13 all say that we are dead in sin, we cannot respond to God's gift of salvation if we are dead.  So He (God) raises some, and not others and they see God's grace and find it irresistable… and the logic flows on from there. 1 Tim. 4:10 …that we rely on the living God Who is the saviour of all mankind, especially of believers.  (Not only believers.) It is speaking of how God saves every man from different things.  God saves un-believers from famine, plauge, death, for a time.  Look at the words used.  If God is the savior of all mankind in the same way then how is the savior ESPECIALLY of those who believe?  How He saves the believers is different than how he saves unbelievers.  As I said, unbelievers are saved from temporary things.  Christs death “bought them time”, in a sense. 1 Cor. 15:28 …Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all. That has nothing to do with salvation, it is like saying “Jesus is the Alpha and Omega!  He saves everyone!”  That makes no logical sense. Now for the part I enjoy the most, critical thinking!  God is infinite in His being and value.  We see this throught scripture.   Three questions first.  When I slap a hobbo, what happens?  I get punched.  When I slap the president, what happens?  Well I get a nice dog pile, a friendly interigation and some jail time.  Why?  Because the president has more value and worth than the hobbo, thus my crime is deserving of a higher punishment. When I sin, basically I am slapping God.  When I slap an infinite God, what happens?  I get infinite puniushment, A.K.A. Hell. Also, God can't just wink at sin and say “it's alright, I will only have you in hell for a while then you can come join the party”.  If He we to do so God would be unjust and thus He would not be God, He has to punish the crimes according to what they deserve.   That is why we had Christ die for us, so He could pay a price for us that we could not pay.  What is the point of having Christ die if we all get into heaven anyways?  God would be stupid for that!  But God is not stupid, he is wise. Hi Sb,       Christs' death and ressurrection has justified ALL mankind. (Ro.3:24-25)     If Christ had not died for our sins, NO ONE would be saved. Your logic that if all are saved,Christ need not of died for us, has no scriptural meaning. Blessings.

Read the next verse after verse 25, verse 26 Romans 3:26  “It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.”  Hmm… sounds like only those who believe will be justified… I don't think everyone has believed.  Ex.- Hitler, Judas…

I am refering to when someone said that our sins will be paid for in Hell and then you get to go to heaven (purgatory) which is what I was refuting.  
I completely agree Christ needed to die for us to be saved but you have the problem of verses that go like this-  John 10:27  “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.”
Matthew 25:32  “Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.” and again  

Revelation 20:6  “Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.”  

Revelation 20:14  “Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.”  

Revelation 21:8  “But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
and for me this kind of tops it off

Revelation 14:11  “And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”  

Mark 9:48  “'where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.'”

And please answer my argument about God being infinite and His punishment being infinite.

God bless,
Silent

[Silentbeard]

Ok, I have not the patience to go through all the posts so I will deal with the verses at the beginning and throw in a little logic too…
1 Tim. 2:4  …our saviour, God, Who wills that all mankind be saved and come to the realization of the truth.

That verse goes along with John 3:16… God wants all to be saved.  You have the problem though of this- Ephesians 2:3;5 and Colossians 2:13 all say that we are dead in sin, we cannot respond to God's gift of salvation if we are dead.  So He (God) raises some, and not others and they see God's grace and find it irresistable… and the logic flows on from there.

1 Tim. 4:10 …that we rely on the living God Who is the saviour of all mankind, especially of believers.  (Not only believers.)

It is speaking of how God saves every man from different things.  God saves un-believers from famine, plauge, death, for a time.  Look at the words used.  If God is the savior of all mankind in the same way then how is the savior ESPECIALLY of those who believe?  How He saves the believers is different than how he saves unbelievers.  As I said, unbelievers are saved from temporary things.  Christs death “bought them time”, in a sense.

1 Cor. 15:28 …Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.

That has nothing to do with salvation, it is like saying “Jesus is the Alpha and Omega!  He saves everyone!”  That makes no logical sense.

Now for the part I enjoy the most, critical thinking!  God is infinite in His being and value.  We see this throught scripture.  
Three questions first.  When I slap a hobbo, what happens?  I get punched.  When I slap the president, what happens?  Well I get a nice dog pile, a friendly interigation and some jail time.  Why?  Because the president has more value and worth than the hobbo, thus my crime is deserving of a higher punishment.
When I sin, basically I am slapping God.  When I slap an infinite God, what happens?  I get infinite puniushment, A.K.A. Hell.

Also, God can't just wink at sin and say “it's alright, I will only have you in hell for a while then you can come join the party”.  If He we to do so God would be unjust and thus He would not be God, He has to punish the crimes according to what they deserve.  

That is why we had Christ die for us, so He could pay a price for us that we could not pay.  What is the point of having Christ die if we all get into heaven anyways?  God would be stupid for that!  But God is not stupid, he is wise.

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