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[RoyT01]

Hi Nick;

You wrote…you realise that Jesus was teaching about the place of waiting for judgement, HADES and not GEHENNA, the lake of fire or the SECOND DEATH.

KJV is confusing as it calls both HELL

I don’t find the KJV confusing because I grew up understanding that hell, the grave, sheol, the pit, gehenna, all represent the same thing; the place where the dead are awaiting the resurrection. The Lake of fire I understood represents total destruction because Satan and his demons end up there; as we are told in Revelation. I would be interested to see which scriptures you use to separate gehenna, from Hadeas or the grave etc. I have heard this discussion before and comprehend it as a religious doctrine or teaching. Now the second death I realize is different and comes to those that do not pass the test at the end of Armageddon which we can expect at the conclusion of the thousand year reign of Christ.

Rev 20:5-6
5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. NIV

Rev 20:13-15
13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. NIV

because of verse 14 and 15 above I can see the lake of fire being representative of total destruction

[RoyT01]

WJ you asked “What about Lazarus and the rich man?

Hello WJ; I know it is popular to believe in the hell fire doctrine and I assume you are bringing up the subject of Lazarus and the rich man to back this doctrine up. However, I would note some points about this parable; that Christ spoke.
It was not the point of the parable to prove the existence of hell. If it were then we would have to believe that all beggars go to heaven and all rich men go to hell, for that is the only criteria spoken of concerning their positions either up or down. Nonetheless:
The moral of the parable is that even if Christ were to bring one of the brothers out of hell that brother still would not believe the prophets or the word of God. This is pointed out by Christ in the last line of the parable.

I have to agree with NH If Christ did not die as the word tells us than who paid the ransom for the curse of death, levied by God Almighty as part of the penalty to Adam?
Gen 3:17-19
To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'

“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.” NIV

Returning to dust is quite literally death.

But as the scriptures so adequately point out Christ did die therefore paying with his life to relinquish the curse of death put on the entire earth.

Matt 20:27-28
28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
NIV

1 Tim 2:5-6
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men —
NIV

Heb 9:15

15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance — now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
NIV

WJ; Mandy will reject any number of scriptures because she apparently feels her intellect is superior to Gods word but that is not something I have seen you do. You apparently are truly looking to find the truth behind Gods word.

RoyT01

[RoyT01]

Hello Mandy You said to lightenup referring to scripture “Sister, it is not that clear-cut I'm afraid. “Well the following are words directly from that one God you and Adam feel you are defending.
Heb 1:8-12
But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”

10 He also says,
“In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”
NIV

You say I believe scripture as we have it and perhaps how it has been handed down for even the manuscripts that we have available for comparison (remember even those are hand copied – copies!) could be in error.

Now I agree that there can be an error in scripture But are you trying to tell us that only you and Adam can decipher these errors That all the scriptures you and Adam have been given are spurious; including the three above?

Of course the scripture was hand written even the Ten Commandments given to Moses were written by the hand of God.
That one God you worship, in reference to his Son, is telling you above “”Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
Then in the very next verse The Almighty Father again destroys the foolishness of the trinity doctrine by saying “”…therefore God, YOUR GOD, has set you above your companions” Then in his own words the one God you worship is saying

Heb 1:10
“In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands. NIV
What part of these three statements from the scriptures made by the one God you worship do you find unclear?
Where do you find the documentation to back up your claim that these scripture are in error.

Lets look at these scriptures from other versions
Heb 1:8

8 But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
NKJV

Heb 1:10
You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
NKJV

Heb 1:8

8 But of the Son He says,

“YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
NASU

Heb 1:10

“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
NASU

Heb 1:8-10

8 but of the Son (he saith,) Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever; And the sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; Therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee With the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of thy hands:
ASV

Heb 1:7-11
8 but of his Son he says, “Your Kingdom, O God, will last forever and ever; its commands are always just and right. 9 You love right and hate wrong; so God, even your God, has poured out more gladness upon you than on anyone else.”

10 God also called him “Lord” when he said, “Lord, in the beginning you made the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. 1
TLB

Heb 1:8

8 But of the Son He says,

“Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever,
And the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom.
NASB

Heb 1:10

10 And,

“Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the works of Thy hands;
NASB

Heb 1:8

8 But to his Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever.
NLT

Heb 1:10

10 And,

“Lord, in the beginning you laid the foundation of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
NLT

Heb 1:8

8 But of the Son he says,

“Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever,
the righteous scepter is the scepter of thy kingdom.
RSV

Heb 1:10

10 And,

“Thou, Lord, didst found the earth in the beginning,
and the heavens are the work of thy hands;
RSV
Are all of these versions in error on thes three scriptures or is it that you cannot see because you will not look. Now I know you to be inteligent so I cannot believe that you think you know more than the God we all worship.

RoyT01

[RoyT01]

Adam I have no idea what you are rabling on about. In fact I doubt you do either.

[RoyT01]

Sotty Nick meant That post for Adam

[RoyT01]

Hi Nick; Again There is only one God But That one Almighty God decided to give birth to a son, That Almighty God tells us this, in fact he went to great trouble to tell us that as lightenup is pointing out at the transfiguration and to completely understand that event one has to go back a few scripture to see the reason for it happening.

Matt 16:13-17
13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, who do men say that I the Son of man am?

14 And they said, some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15 He saith unto them, But who say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. KJV
(The KJV is using Barjona because it was Peter’s Aramaic name)
Mark 9:2-6
2 After six days Jesus took Peter, James and John with him and led them up a high mountain, where they were all alone. There he was transfigured before them. 3 His clothes became dazzling white, whiter than anyone in the world could bleach them.
4 And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus. NIV

The question here is why. What were they talking about? It does not matter if we were suppose to know we would have been told but Elijah and Moses are there to show us Christ was not Elijah or a prophet or Willy or Billy or Fritz standing there in all his radiance was Gods only begotten Son!
Mark 9:7
Then a cloud appeared and enveloped them, and a voice came from the cloud: “This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him!” NIV

When that One God said “LISTEN TO HIM” That was not a request.
Did that only begotten son of God labor under His Fathers direction to complete creation; Yes He did
Now why you see that statement by the only true God as a trinity I don’t know but it has nothing to do with that man made doctrine. In fact to verify that look at what Christ is saying in:
John 17:3
3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. NIV

Notice that one third of the supposed trinity is telling us that His Father is the ONLY TRUE GOD. Which makes the trinity kind of fall apart doesn’t it.

Now I have answered your question a number of times and have done so in English using scripture from an English Bible, And neither I nor the Bible are in any way evasive.

Roy T01

[RoyT01]

Hello David Thank you for your post I am impressed with the fulness of your comments. Your argument is well thought out.

RoyT01

[RoyT01]

Thank you Nick and Epistemaniac for Luke 24:39 Which I had forgotten about.
Nick you asked
If your best friend had died and you met him on the street would you recognize him?
I believe I would Nick if I walked with him and had believed him when he was alive and expected him to be resurrected by His Father but I agree with you that Christ could walk on water. In fact, until this moment I never understood why Peter also walked on Water but Gene said
notice He did not say flesh and blood, but flesh and bone, interesting…

but that statement Gene triggered in my mind a connection to Chapter 27 in Ezekiel
Ezek 37:1-14
1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the LORD and set me in the middle of a valley; it was full of bones. 2 He led me back and forth among them, and I saw a great many bones on the floor of the valley, bones that were very dry. 3 He asked me, “Son of man, can these bones live?”

I said, “O Sovereign LORD, you alone know.”

4 Then he said to me, “Prophesy to these bones and say to them, 'Dry bones, hear the word of the LORD!
5 This is what the Sovereign LORD says to these bones: I will make breath enter you, and you will come to life.
6 I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put breath in you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am the LORD.'”

7 So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone.
8 I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them.

9 Then he said to me, “Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, 'this is what the Sovereign LORD says: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe into these slain, that they may live.'”
10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet — a vast army.

11 Then he said to me: “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They say, 'Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.'
12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: O my people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel.
13 Then you, my people, will know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves and bring you up from them.
14 I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the LORD have spoken, and I have done it, declares the LORD.'” NIV
I don’t know for sure yet but perhaps the word is telling us that like everything else about Christ even his resurrection was different than any other man. Other men could walk on water but only Christ could return to his Father. It never fails to amaze me; I am 78 , 79 in Sept but there are still knew things to be learned from the wondrous word of God

[RoyT01]

Hello Gene I don’t know where you got the information that Christ told Peter spirits don’t have physical bodies’ I don’t recall any scripture like that after Christ was resurrected but then that might be my memory. However, If Christ was resurrected with the same body he had when he died why didn’t Mary recognize him; she thought he was the Gardner? She only recognized him by the tone of his voice when he said her name. Why didn't the disciples recognize him as he walked side by side with them? It was not until he broke bread with them that they realized who he was, because of his mannerism in that action. If it was the same flesh and bone body he had when he died how did he enter a room when the door was locked? (John 20:26) If it was the same body he died with why didn’t the apostles recognize him at the fishing boat the third time Christ appeared to anyone after being resurrected John had to tell Peter it was the Lord (John 21 1:14) When the time comes for God to resurrect God resurrects someone that died during the time Christ walked this earth he will do so by installing that persons consciousness in a new body. A healthy body! A body that is completely new not missing hair teeth eyes or limbs.
People have no problem believing God is within them even though God is very much a spiritual being What Gives you the idea that God could not transfer the consciousness of His only begotten Son into a newly forming earthly body within Mary?
God could breath life into s stone if he chose to for life obeys his every command.
Again I couldn’t tell you how God would go about doing that, but I would bet my life God knows How to do that. In fact, as members of the family of God that is exactly what we are doing, betting or lives on Gods ability to completely control life.
There are hundreds of billions of stars in our universe and God remembers the names of all of then so I won’t lose any sleep worrying about our Creator forgetting anyone when the time comes

Roy T01

[RoyT01]

Adam It is no bother, there is one God Who decided to give birth to a son that son worked side by side with the Father bringing about the creation. To do this he used The Almighties power or Holy Spirit just as he did when he was performing miracles such as stopping the rain and calming the sea while here on earth. These are not things a human man can do without God. If you remember there was town Christ could not perform miracles in because of that towns lack of faith. But again the preexiastence of Christ has absolutely nothing to do with with the trinity.
RoyT01

[RoyT01]

Well said above Kathie
RoyT01

[RoyT01]

Adam you have been given many sciptures concerning Christ's preexistence by myself and others. You just don' want to believe them but none of those scriptures has anything to do with the false doctrine of a three headed God. I have a son who lives in New York. But he is not me And I am not him. He is my son who I am quite proud of… see how it works.
Although, in retrospect, I guess I can see your mistaken relationship because Constantine used that arguement to introduce that idea into the Catholic Church in 324 AD but then that church spent the better part of 500 years arguing over how many angels would fit on the head of a pin? So how serious can one take their debates. Also constantine was baptised on his deathbed because he never was a Christian but believed in a three headed god called something like Pholymare, I don't recall exactly but then again Who Cares? Constantine was a Roman Emporer who put individual Christian churches together under one head …His, and he did this for power not for God.
RoyT01

[RoyT01]

Forgive me Mandy you are right I did mean that post for Adam because he wrote

“You still skip my questions to prove your Trinity ideology.”

[RoyT01]

The other day, our member Before Time, related the purpose of God in creating the universe which was to give a home for mankind to self perpetuate supplying God Almighty with a constant pool from which he could and would resurrect, and adopt into a spiritual family of brothers and sisters for his only begotten Son whom He had sent to earth in AD 4 as our Christ. The question here is why? What did that accomplish as far as God Almighty was concerned?
Well, it accomplished a great many things. For Christ had also brought a number of things, His Father had sent, with him. To begin with He brought salvation for all mankind; he also brought the renewed gift of eternal life, he also brought the final law of grace which he uses to wipe clean our plates of sin and finally The Almighty caused our king and eternal high priest to actually become part of and actually share the bloodline of humanity. So that he can without any question or doubt repeat the following
Mark 3:35
35 Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother.” NIV

The Almighty is offering eternal life through His only begotten Son. John 3:16
God does not insist that you accept that gift but if you want it God does insist that you must accept His only begotten son as your king and eternal high priest.
It is impossible for man to find fault in this demand since God also demanded from the angels, who were made a little higher than man…

Heb 1:6
6 “… “Let all God's angels worship him.” NIV

[RoyT01]

Mandy I have no idea how you arrived at the conclussion that I believe in the trinity, but I not only don't accept that man made doctrine but I consider it an insult to both the Father and the son

RoyT01

[RoyT01]

Mandy you ask an interesting question of Irene by saying Why would Christ need to be adopted and Irene answered that proverbs 8 30 in the Moffat translation says in proverbs 8:30 “I was with him His foster child.” Which it does Yet the Septuagint at proverbs 8:30 says “I was harmonizing with him” meaning God Almighty. The copy write for the Moffat translation was issued in 1922. The copy write for the Septuagint was rendered in 1954. However, the Septuagint was translated in 1954 from a copy of Charles Thomson who was the Secretary of the continental congress of the United States 1774-1789
Nonetheless, other versions state verse 30 as follows …

Prov 8:30
0 Then I was beside Him, as a master workman;
And I was daily His delight,
NASB

Prov 8:30
30 I was the architect at his side. I was his constant delight, rejoicing always in his presence.
NLT

Prov 8:30
0 then I was beside him, like a master workman;
and I was daily his delight,
RSV

Prov 8:30
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
NIV

Prov 8:30
30 Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman;
And I was daily His delight,
Rejoicing always before Him,
NKJV

Prov 8:30
30 Then I was beside Him, as a master workman;
And I was daily His delight,
Rejoicing always before Him,
NASU

Prov 8:30

30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
KJV

Prov 8:30

30 Then I was by him, (as) a master workman; And I was daily (his) delight, Rejoicing always before him,
ASV

Prov 8:30
0 Then I was beside Him, as a master workman;
And I was daily His delight,
Rejoicing always before Him,
NASB

Prov 8:30
0 I was the architect at his side. I was his constant delight, rejoicing always in his presence
NLT

Prov 8:30
30 then I was beside him, like a master workman;
and I was daily his delight,
rejoicing before him always,
RSV
Notice all the versions above say Christ was Gods delight except the NIV which says Christ was delighted. I find this interesting and will look into it further

RoyT01

[RoyT01]

It was not necessary for men to accept the origins of Jesus in submission to the gospel.

Hello Nick; what you have said above is very true but learning the origin of Christ from the word only serves to enhance the view anyone has of our Christ. You also said …

Acts 2:22
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

again you are quite right miracles go hand in hand with Christ in fact Christ along with life itself is a miraculous gift from God to all of mankind.

I once had an atheist demand that I explain how God accomplishes miracles that outweigh natural laws such as Christ walking on water. Well of course I can’t explain how Christ did that anymore than anyone else. All I could say was when we fly in an airplane we don’t repeal the law of gravity but we do use another law…that of aerodynamics to accomplish flight. Since all the laws of this universe were written by God Why would He not know which law to apply for any given thing such as making Mary pregnant with His Holy Spirit? Knocking down the walls of Jericho with sound or allowing the apostle Peter to also walk on water.

I might add here to Mandy you are quite right, in fact absolutely right about the command of love towards one another Christ demands of us.

I might also be able to help “lightenup explain “tough” love although I’m sure she doesn’t need my help. If a brother or sister saw you walking blindly towards the edge of a cliff they might hurt your arm yanking you back from the precipice but not pulling you away from that edge would not only be an act of no love, it would actually be an evil action.

RoyT01

[RoyT01]

Adam, Look at your question…
If Jesus, the human born like you and me from his mother, was preexisting then why not we were preexisting before our birth?

My answer… because God never intended anyone other Than His only begotten Son, to be the salvation of all the rest of mankind. What that means is Christ is unique.
Looking at previous posts, Kathie has answered your question.Irene has answered your question I have answered your question which I might add is kind of silly to begin with. I am sure you know that Christ is a one of a kind, which is the very definition of the word “Holy”. He is different than any other man which was true even when he appeared on earth born of the woman Mary; for she was fertilized by the Holy Spirit. This is also the difference between being created and being begotten. Christ was begotten or produced by God not created within her for had Christ been created then he would not have referred to himself as the son of man.
Isn't it amazing that even the very reason for the existence of the whole universe is explained by the Bible as End Time has related. It turns out Christ is that very reason which is why Col 1:16 is saying that before the world was begun All things were created by Him (Christ) and FOR him. It might be added again here for you that Christ could not have created anything in the universe if he hadn’t been begotten by His father to begin with.
The reason you are having trouble understanding this is because you are trying desperately to fit into the Bible your interpretation which is why I told you interpretation leads to trouble meaning you yourself block your understanding of Gods word.
As for everyone interpreting the Bible as Mandy believes I have this to say… what gives anyone the idea that God had His word written so we could all vote on the scriptures we like or dislike? All Scripture Comes from God. All scripture can be understood as absolute truth and He did not have any of those scriptures written with trick or deceptive words in Them. Scriptures are clear and concise the only time confusion appears is when people try to twist them to fit in religious concepts.

RoyT01

[RoyT01]

Adam and Mandy

Yes I most certainly did answer 1 Peter 1:20 it’s just that you folks don’t won’t to hear it. Here it is again.
1 Peter 1:20
He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. NIV
What had Christ prayed for…?
John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

It appears Peter is confirming Christ’s comment to his Father but why? Does Peter think Christ is unsure of the past? Not likely, so let’s see what Peter says next…
1 Peter 1:21
21 Through him (Christ) you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God. NIV

It seems to me Peter is simply confirming that what Christ had asked his Father for had already been given To His son; by The Father. However, Peter is speaking of the time he was living in not of an age long gone by. But Peter goes on to speak of the predestined family of God if you choose to read further. But it is clear that attempting to negate Christ’s prayerful words to his Father, in John by something Peter said is out of context and fruitless particularly since it is in regards to another theme. Nonetheless, it is this predestined family that is causing the confusion here.
It is quite true that predestined family was ordained By the Almighty Therefore it is proper for the saints to speak of that family of God as predestined. But it is the family that was predestined not the individuals that make up that family, the only exception to this is the only begotten Son of God, our promised Christ which is clearly confirmed in the second Chapter of 1Peter
1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

I placed scripture side by side and if you take the time to actually read it you will see that Peter agrees with what Christ is saying in his prayer and is not arguing at all about Christ’s preexistence with His Father at all. Peter knew that Christ was with God before the world was made Just as Paul and John did
Again look at what Christ is sayin
Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
notice “before the world began” Christ is telling us point blank the time or age he is referring to which is before the first verse of the Bible “IN THE BEGINNING GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH that was when the earth was placed in our universe and since Christ shared the Glory of Creation with his Father That is what he is talking about in john 17:4,5 now instead of trying to rewrite these scriptures you might want to attempt to understand What Christ is saying

[RoyT01]

With all due respect, even you bring unique interpretations here to the board (we all do). I certainly wouldn't chastize another brother for sharing his interpretations. To a large degree, we all “rewrite the scriptures” to skew left or right depending on whatever view we may have a the time.

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