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[Evangelion]

Oh, and just wrapping up my answer to Modem Mouth: what do you believe I Corinthians 13:8-9 is referring to?

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Of course many of us who have experienced these incredible gifts and will look upon your theory with a great deal of skepticism. Kind Regards

Again: do you know anybody who's capable of performing miracles like the apostles did, like raising people from the dead curing incurable diseases?

Because that's the very least I'll need before I can believe that the Holy Spirit gifts are still available today.

[Evangelion]

Cubes, I'll have to get back to you later; it's already 5:39 AM over here in the UK.

[Evangelion]

Quote (Guest @ Mar. 09 2005,03:17)

Quote (Evangelion @ Mar. 09 2005,01:53) I Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. EL, No offense but…thats it? That's your proof that the gifts are not for today? You must admit that's a very weak argument.

No, that's not it – that's just a starting point.

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If you maintain and want to convince others that the gifts ceased in the post-apostolic era, then you must provide more convincing biblical evidence.

Scripture makes it clear that only the apostles were capable of passing on the Holy Spirit (see Acts 8 for an example), and that those who had received it from them did not possess this ability. Thus, the guidance of the Holy Spirit ended with the death of the last man who possessed it (whoever he may have been.)

But if you know somebody who's capable of performing miracles like the apostles did – eg. raising people from the dead, curing incurable diseases, etc. – I'd sure love to meet 'em. 😉

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1 Co 13 8Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. If you read on two further verses, you will see that Paul explains exactly when the gifts will cease.

Yep, “when that which is perfect is come.” By which he referred to a full understanding of the Christianmessage.

Remember, Christ had promised that the Holy Spirit would “lead you into all truth.” Once this was done, there was no more need for the presence of the Holy Spirit.

(Notice also that this requires a change of emphasis from Spirit-guided men, to the letters of the apostles, since their writings would necessarily become the touchstone of orthodoxy. That is why Peter and Paul take great pains to assure their readers that their letters are inspired by God Himself.)

I believe that by the end of the 1st Century AD, the Church had everything it needed to know about God and His purpose, and that there was no need for further doctrinal development.

Indeed, as his own life drew to a close, Paul himself appears to sense that this age of maturity is not far off:

Act 20:26-27.
Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

“All the counsel of God.” That seems pretty comprehensive to me.

Again, when writing to Timothy, Paul seems to breath a sigh of relief not unmingled with fatigue:

II Timothy 4:7.
I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

He considers his own work to be finished. Now it will be left to other men; hence his exhortation in Acts 20:26-27…

Acts 20:28-30.
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

…which, interestingly enough, speaks of the schisms that would later beset the body of Christ.

And of course, these were less easily dealt with in the absence of men who possessed the Holy Spirit, which is why Paul instructs the readers of his epistles to hold fast to the teachings that they have received from Christ, through him.

This is because Paul knows that the gospel of Christ is…

the power of God unto salvation

…as we read in Romans 1:6.

And if the gospel of Christ is “the power of God unto salvation” (as Paul clearly states), we have no need of any further theological development! (After all, how could anyone possibly improve on a message that is already capable of providing salvation…?)

So that's the fulfillment of I Corinthians 13:8-9, right there.

[Evangelion]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 09 2005,01:23)

Hi E, It should be no surprise to anyone familiar with the bible and the maening of given names that “satan” means “adversary” but it does not mean “an adversary”. That is his attitude to the things of God and his role in the affairs of men.

Oops, just realised that I confused “satan” (meaning “adversary”) with “diabolos” (meaning “false accuser.”)  

Anyway… I don't see that you've proved anything significant here.

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Likewise your opinion about the role of the Holy Spirit's gifts ceasing at the end of the first century AD is just that – an opinion.

You reckon?  The early church fathers of the post-apostolic era were unanimous in their agreement that the gifts of the Spirit were no longer available.  They looked high and low, but found nobody who was still capable of performing miracles.

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And it is one with no Biblical support.

I Corinthians 13:8
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

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Anyone who thinks today's generation is any less in need of the power of God to set free from disease and demon influence is spiritually blind.

Disease?  Yes.  Demonic influence?  No.

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But if you do not seek these gifts then that is exactly what you will be-pitifully spiritually blind and unable to recognise the attacks of “the adversary”

I'll take my chances.  

[Evangelion]

Quote (Cubes @ Mar. 01 2005,17:03)

As for Satan, I guess the question is not that we believe in him in the same way we believe in God, but could you say he exists given the fact that he was in the wilderness tempting Jesus and countless other mentions of him?  Is there a being called Satan, according to your belief?

You might also want to click here, where you will find a response to Anthony Buzzard's criticism of the Christadelphian position on this issue.  

[Evangelion]

Quote (Cubes @ Mar. 01 2005,17:08)

Quote (Evangelion @ Mar. 01 2005,15:20) Quote (Cubes @ Mar. 01 2005,14:43) To not believe in the holy spirit is serious indeed as it nullifies Christ's sacrifice just the same in one's life. We do indeed believe in the Holy Spirit. Quote By what spirit then do they cry out, “Abba, Father” or don't they? We cry “Abba, Father” by the spirit of adoption, as Paul himself has said: Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. Do you make a difference b/n the holy spirit and the spirit of adoption?

Yes, I do.

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If yes, can you explain your reasons?

Paul explains that the “spirit of adoption” is something we have as a result of becoming God's children. It's not a supernatural force, but a privilege that comes with our special relationship.

I like the way Albert Barnes puts it:

The spirit of adoption –
The feeling of affection, love, and confidence which pertains to children; not the servile, trembling spirit of slaves, but the temper and affectionate regard of sons.

Adoption is the taking and treating a stranger as one’s own child. It is applied to Christians because God treats them as his children; he receives them into this relation, though they were by nature strangers and enemies.

It implies,

(1)That we by nature had no claim on him;
(2)That therefore, the act is one of mere kindness – of pure, sovereign love;
(3)That we are now under his protection and care; and,
(4)That we are bound to manifest toward him the spirit of children, and yield to him obedience. See the note at Joh_1:12; compare Gal_4:5; Eph_1:5.

It is for this that Christians are so often called the sons of God.

[Evangelion]

Quote (Cubes @ Mar. 01 2005,17:03)

Quote (Evangelion @ Mar. 01 2005,15:15) By Evangelion:  “Um, we don't deny the reality of the Holy Spirit. And I see no evidence that you have to believe in Satan in order to be a true Christian.” Hi Evangelion,   Good that you stopped by.  And thank God that you don't deny the reality of the Holy Spirit. Could it be it is the gifts you don't believe in or is Nick entirely misinformed?  This would be a good time to clear it up.  Perhaps in the Holy Spirit thread.

We don't deny the reality of the gifts; we simply don't believe that God has given them to modern day believers. The gifts ceased after fulfilling their purpose in the 1st Century AD.

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As for Satan, I guess the question is not that we believe in him in the same way we believe in God, but could you say he exists given the fact that he was in the wilderness tempting Jesus and countless other mentions of him?

No, I would only say that somebody was in the desert tempting Jesus. The word “Satan” isn't a proper name; it's simply a noun which means “false accuser.” We see from Jesus' own application of it to Peter (“Get thee behind me, Satan!”) that it can be applied to anyone who opposes another.

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Is there a being called Satan, according to your belief?

Nope.

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What other ways does your belief differ from mainstream christianity?

Best way to tell you that is show you my confession of faith.

Click here.

[Evangelion]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 01 2005,20:40)

Hi, Yeshua was different to us in one way. When we die our body decays but his did not. Acts 2. 26f ” '..Moreover my flesh also will abide in hope;because thou wilt not abandon my soul to Hades ,nor allow they holy One to undergo decay.Thou hast made known to me the ways of life ;thou wilt make me full of gladness with thy presence' Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriach David that he both died and was buried ,and his tomb is with us to this day. And so because he was a prophet, and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants upon his throne he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ , that he was neither abandoned to Hades , nor did his flesh suffer decay.This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses”

The only reason why his body did not decay is because it was raised in three days, before decay could occur.

[Evangelion]

Quote (Cubes @ Mar. 01 2005,14:43)

To not believe in the holy spirit is serious indeed as it nullifies Christ's sacrifice just the same in one's life.

We do indeed believe in the Holy Spirit.

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By what spirit then do they cry out, “Abba, Father” or don't they?

We cry “Abba, Father” by the spirit of adoption, as Paul himself has said:

Romans 8:15
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

[Evangelion]

Quote (Cubes @ Mar. 01 2005,02:54)

Quote (Evangelion @ Feb. 28 2005,17:41) I cordially invite you all to click here. Thank you for the invitation, Evangelion. I stopped by briefly. Looks like you're busy harvesting your corner of the fields. Good work. I've added you to my favorites and hope to stop by again from time to time.

Thanks, it would be nice to have you along some time – even if we disagree on a few key issues.

[Evangelion]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 01 2005,03:13)

Hi cubes, I will show more interest in the Christadelpians when they stop denying truth, such as the existence of Satan and the reality of the Holy Spirit. Sadly scripture says about them in Rom 8 9 “If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ he does not belong to him” How can they belong to Christ who do not believe in and accept his Spirit?

Um, we don't deny the reality of the Holy Spirit.

And I see no evidence that you have to believe in Satan in order to be a true Christian.

[Evangelion]

I cordially invite you all to click here.

[Evangelion]

I cordially invite you all to click here.

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