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And from this website, a Jewish interpretation of Ps 22:

http://www.kosherjudaism.com/tehillim22humor.html

Much as I disagree w/ the denial that this is a fulfillment of prophecy concerning Christ, their interpretation helps me to even appreciate the Lord Jesus so much more. When he could have “cussed and died” he rather exhorted, encouraged the people of GOD and praised GOD till the very end.

………..

Tehillim 22

What if it was about Jesus…?
I was once asked this question by a Missionary concerning “Psalm” 22. He was so concerned over verse 22:17 being about Jesus that I told him:

Bill,

If you accept that this verse is speaking of a Moshiach, then you obvisouly believe that Jesus did all of the things mentioned in it, and that the entire psalm decribes him and the events to a tee. You must, because you are claiming that he fulfilled this “prophecy”.

Ok, rather than debate about a single sentense or a single word, let's go with the entire Psalm. And I will even ascribe all of the events to Jesus, and I will even use “pierce” in the one verse that you are so adamant about. It isn;t a problem for me because if you read through all of verses 2-27 (or 1-26 in your numbering system) you will see why “pierce” or “lion” doesn't add weight to your case, but in fact diminishes to into nothing.

So let's see if you can accept that this entire Psalm is of the Moshiach, because once you read the entire psalm, you will see that if you want the person in this Psalm to be Jesus, then you need to also accept everything else that it says, which includes removing all deification from him as well.

Ok?

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PSALM 22 (Revised for Christians)

22:2 – “My G-d, my G-d, for what purpose have You forsaken me, and my crying words are far from my Help?”

(Here we have Jesus on the cross, a distraught man feeling abandoned by G-d. He believes that his words are being ignored by G-d, far from the One who can help.)

22:3 – “My G-d, I call out by day, and You do not answer! And at night [and You do not answer me]! And there is no inner-quiet/calm for me.”

(Jesus declares that he has been feeling abandoned by G-d, not just at this instant, but day and night, over a period of time, alone and despondent. Feelings of abandonment and despair are based on fear, and it is normal for a human being who is condemned to die to be afraid and feel abandoned instead of facing his execution while declaring his faith in G-d.)

22:4 “But it is You Who are holy, [it is You] Who inhabits the praises of Israel.”

(Jesus is declaring that only G-d is the expression of “kedushah”, this experiance that is beyond the grasp of humanity, including himself, and that Israel has always declares it's praises to G-d alone and no other.)

22:5 “It was with You that our fathers felt secure, [trusting], and you provided for them [delivering them from their distress].”

(Here Jesus is declaring that just as G-d helped the Patriarchs out of their time of trouble, he too wanted to be saved from this hour of terror. But unlike them, he did not feel very secure, or trusting, for his feelings of abandonment are immense).

22:6 “It was to You that they cried out, and they escaped danger because of You. They trusted in You and were not dissapointed [in their expectation of deliverance].”

(Jesus is declaring that only G-d can help him, just as he helped the Patriarchs. Jesus is declaring that not by his righteousness, but the righteousness of the Patriarchs may he be delivered from this terror through the memory of their righteousness.)

22:7 “But [compared to them] I am a worm, and not [even worthy of being] a man, I am scorned of men and despised by the nation.”

(Jesus declares that he recognizes that he is not at the level of spirituality as the Patriarchs, asks G-d to deliver him from his terror on their righteousness even though he does not deserve it. And the Jewish people, he says, have declared that he is not worthy, they despise him and want nothing to do with him.)

22:8 “All those who see me, scorn me. They reject me with a sneer of the lip and their shaking head.”

(Jesus is acknowledging that everyone, without exception, reject him. Mocking him, belittling him, or shaking the head, wondering how someone could fall so far. He is friendless and alone, with only G-d to talk to, who has ignored him.)

22:9 [“They are saying:] 'Let us toss it to HaShem! He will deliver it, He will save it', [and they mockingly say] 'He takes pleasure in him'.”

(Jesus is saying that his enemies are planning to rip him off of the cross, [since he already said the “My G-d, my G-d, while he was on the cross, and this comes next]. And they now want to do something really nasty, just to prove that G-d has no real interest in this man, treating him as though he is not a man, but a thing.)

As a side note, the Hebrew word “gohl” [cast/wrest] implies difficulty in holding onto something before casting a struggling object, pulling it away before tossing it aside)

22:10 “For it was You Who thrust me from the womb, [it was You Who] gave me hope [while I was nursing] upon my mother's breast.”

(Jesus is declaring that while he may not have wanted to be born, and maybe his birth was not an easy one, still, as far as he could remember, he always trusted in the One G-d, that G-d would always be there to help when he needed it. And he really needs help now. He is begging to be set free.)

22:11 “It was upon You that I was sent from the the uterus, from the womb of my mother. You are my G-d.”

(Oh, this is a tough one. Jesus is declaring that he has always been drawn to G-d, even before he was born, that he had an innate knowing and devout experience of G-d, even while in the womb, declaring that the One and only G-d who created him is his G-d too!)

22:12 “Be not far from me, for misfortune is imminent, since there is no help.”

(This repeats the theme of verse 2-3, where Jesus feels that he has been abandoned, and declares that there is no human help that can get him out of this mess, and that if G-d doesn't come through, the G-d he has always believed in, then he will soon die.)

22:13 “Many bulls have come around me, the brave ones of Bashan have encircled me!”

(Jesus is noting that the powerful ones of the Gentile nations are all around him, for Bulls are typically representative of powerful nations, just as 70 bulls were sacrificed for the 70 powerful nations in the Temple. Bashan was, at the time of this Psalm, one of those nations. Jesus was telling G-d that the place where he was being crucified were full of gentiles of various kinds who wanted him dead. Blast those Romans! Damn those Greeks!)

22:14 “They open up their mouth against me, they are a lion, ravening, roaring.”

(Here, Jesus is saying how all of the enemies of the Jews who are also his enemies and have put him in this predicament, are “roaring”, attacking him in unison, seeking his destruction as the non-Jewish enemies have plotted for his death. The metaphor of a beast, a lion is more powerful than a bull, and it is the first of the times it is used in thie Psalm).

22:15 “I am spilling out, like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My heart has become like wax that is melting within my deepest parts.”

(Jesus is saying that he is like water, which has no form of it's own, for he feels like he has no support from man or G-d. Even his limbs no longer are of any use, for he is feels crippled, weak, and despairs, his heart poured out to the One G-d).

22:16 “My strength is dried up like a clay shard, and my tongue feels glued to my palate. And You have sent me to be covered
with the dust of death.”

(Jesus feels that his limited strength is failing, he is thirsty and requires water to survive, he knows that without G-d saving him, that he will soon die. And if so, then so be it.)

(Ok, I will let the next verse read “pierce” just for the fun of it instead of the previously used “lion”!)

22:17 “For dogs have already surrounded me. A company of evil doers who are piercing my hands and feet”

(Jesus is saying that while he is on the cross, non Jews, or “dogs” (See “Matthew” where Jesus refers to non-Jews in this manner) are sorrounding him and piercing his hands and feet.)

22:18 “I recall to myself all of my “bones” They (the evil doers) behold this and look at me.”

(Jesus is recalling the past of those who came before who are long dead (as he did in verse 5), and the evil gentiles who did this to him, they see this, and they stare in bewilderment that he is not crying for them to let him go, but is instead recounting the deads of the righteous Jews who are the foundation of Israel [something that the “gospels” must have left out).

22:19 “They divide my garments among themselves, casting lots for my clothing.”

(Here Jesus is declaring that the non-Jews, the enemies of the Jewish people, are taking his property [which was slashed into shreds during his lashing], and they are even gambling to see who can get the best of these stringy garments.)

22:20 “But You HaShem, do not be far off. You are my strength. Hasten to help me!”

(Jesus is saying that he is but mortal, weak, and dying, and that only the One G-d who created him can help, for only Hashem is the true source of all strength.)

22:21 “Deliver my soul from the sword, and my one and only from the power of the dog”

(Here, Jesus is praying that he not die by the sword, and that the Jewish people with whom he was “yechid” [united with ] should not be overpowered by their enemies as he has been.)

22:22 Save me from the lions mouth, for you have already heard me from the horns of the Re'emin”)

(Oops. There is that pesky “lion” metaphor again! Here we have Jesus saying that the evil doers (See verse 14) who seek his death and the death of the Jewish people are upon him. Jesus doesn't want to die and cries out for deliverance, just as he has recounted again and again asking to be saved, but it will be a cry unanswered.)

22:23 “I will declare Your Name to my bretheren, I will praise You in the midst of the congregations with songs proclaiming Your mighty acts.”

(Here, Jesus is saying that if he survives this, he will speak of HaShem to the Jewish people, praising HaShem to all of the congregations of Jews everywhere, and speaking not of himself, but only of the greatness of HaShem. Hmmm, that is problematic for one who is supposed to be G-d!)

22:24 “You [Jewish people] who are in awe of HaShem, praise Him with songs proclaiming His mighty acts. All of you children of Jacob, glorify Him (G-d) and stand in awe of Him (G-d), all of you people of Israel!”

(Another deity problem arises. Here, Jesus turns his atttention away from himself and cries out to the Jewish people to do what he has promised to do, to praise HaShem only, and serve Him in all of His ways. In fact, it seems as though he has cut himself away from any intermediary form and is telling people to pray directly to Hashem.)

22:25 “For He (G-d) has neither despised the nor abhored the lowliness of the poor, nor has He hid His presence from him, and when he cried to Him, He heard!

(Now Jesus is declaring that blessed are the poor (ahni) for they will know G-d and he will respond. In this way, he is recalling his sermon on the mount and declaring himself as an “ahni”, a poor man who has nothing of his own)

22:26 “From You comes my praise, in the great congregation I will pay my vows, in the presence of those who are in awe of him”

(Jesus is declaring that any praises that he recieves is by way of HaShem, and not of anything that he has done. He is also saying that one day, he will come before the great Sanhedrin, consisting of Jews who are in awe of HaShem, and will pay his “neder” (a vow). A Jew who makes a vow is required to bring an atonement for having done so. It's a sin with a method of correction. And Jesus is admitting that he will atone if he will but be set free.)

22:27 “Let the meek eat and be satisfied. Let them praise ]HaShem, those who seek Him, may your hearts be alive forever”

(Here we have Jesus speaking of the humble Jews, that they should come together, celebrate, and bentch together. He speaks of those who seek to serve HaShem and no other G-d. And declares that their passion should be the type of passion that should live forever, to serve the One G-d. Do we see a pattern here of whom Jesus is telling the people to have a relationship with and Who alone to pray to? Do we see that the speaker does not say me but Him? Do we see that the speaker not only doesn't declare his own worthiness to be served but directs people to serve HaShem alone?)

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Do you know something Bill? If you are willing to accept that this entire Psalm speaks of the central figure not being G-d, of telling others to pray alone to HaShem and no other, and that he is not only unworthy, but is simply a man, I am more than willing to switch the word “lion” for “pierce”!

http://www.kosherjudaism.com/tehillim22humor.html

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So hopefully, WJ, we'll explore what the New Testament (2nd Covenant) means by Ps 33:6-7, if that does not mean the Christ or the means by which GOD made the worlds.

I am not willing to construct such a case without the 1st Covenant, though… because we need to be able to see their references.

So far, it's led to my realizing that there are two manuscripts in question when speaking of Ps 102. I was at a Jewish site today to try and get their take on it, and this is what I read, bearing in mind that they oppose Christianity so I do not share their view against Christ:

searching wrote:

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….ry61424
Can someone help me give an explation to Psalms 22.

REUVEN:
Psalm 22 is often called a Messianic psalm and commentators use it as a 'proof' text regarding the crucifixion of J*. Matthew 27:35 alludes to it when it recounts that the soldiers at the foot of the cross cast lots for the garments of J*. Let's take a look at the Psalm.

Quote:
For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers has encompassed me; they pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones. They look, they stare at me; They divide my garments among them, and for my clothing they cast lots. But Thou, 0 L-rd, be not far off,' 0 Thou my help, hasten to my assistance.
Psalm 22:16-29

This is a typical modem English translation of this psalm in Xian bibles. However, the Hebrew scriptures translate the last part of verse 16 like this: “…like the prey of a lion are my hands and my feet;” not 'they pierced my hands and my feet.' Why?

The Hebrew word is 'ka'ari' which literally means 'like a lion'. It can be found in Strong's #738. In the King James Version this word is translated 78 times as 'lion' or 'like a lion'. ONLY in this verse was it changed to 'pierced'. One has to wonder why? Is somebody trying to force a point?

Had David the psalmist wanted to actually write the word 'pierced' he would have to have written either daqar or ratza which are common Hebrew words in the scriptures. There appears to have been a deliberate mistranslation of the word 'ka'ari' in order to support a later Xian position. The fact that this translation of 'ka 'ari' differs from the other 78 times the same word is translated makes it highly suspect.

Please keep in mind that the Scriptures were written in Hebrew not in 17th century King James English. What has made Xians tragically vulnerable to Bible tampering is that only a very, very tiny minority are able to read their Bibles in its original language. The prevailing misconception is that English translations are “pure' and the inerrant word of G-d. Sadly, as we can see, this is not the complete truth.

It is noteworthy to learn that the mistranslation of Psalm 22 has not escaped the notice of Xian scholars. Unfortunately, however, rather than repent over it and correct it, another controversy has arisen in an attempt to justify the mistake.

One commentator suggested that although 'ka 'ari' does in fact mean 'like a lion', that most likely an ancient scribe made a mistake of changing the word to 'pierced' by modifying one small letter in the Hebrew when he painstakingly copied the scriptures. He asserts that 'ka 'ari' was mistakenly copied as 'ka'aru'when a yod (i) was changed to a vav (u). Nice try but ka'aru doesn't mean anything in Hebrew. It's not a word! This explanation is completely unfounded and worthless.

Other commentators resort to the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible) to justify using 'pierced'. However, this argument is also seriously flawed. The 72 Rabbis who produced the Septuagine translated ONLY the Torah – the first five books – some 260 years before the time of J*! This is an undisputed historical fact well documented in secular and church history. The Septuagint currently available which includes the Prophets and the Writings – the complete 'Old Testament' – is a Xian work, entirely Greek in its composition and therefore removed from the original Hebrew. The translation into Greek of the books of the prophets and the writings was completed in the 3rd to 4th century, after doctrines had been developed by Constantinian theologians. With reference to that particular period of church history, a number of church historians attest to the deliberate tampering of texts that was done.

Dr. Herbert Marsh, a 19th century English Bishop wrote: “It is a certain fact that several readings in our common printed text are nothing more than alterations deliberately made by Origen, whose authority was so great in the Xian Church (230 BCE) that emendations which he proposed, though, as he himself acknowledged were supported by the evidence of no manuscripts, were nevertheless generally received.”

St. Gregory, the 4th century Bishop, in a letter to St. Jerome wrote: “A little jargon is all that is necessary to impose on the people. The less they comprehend, the more they admire. Our forefathers and doctors have often said not what they thought, but what circumstances and necessity dictated.”

Dr. Conyers Middleton, 18th century church historian said: “There never was any period of time in all ecclesiastical history in which so many rank heresies were publicly professed nor in which so many spurious books were forged and published by the Xians, under the name of Christ, and the apostles and the apostolic writers, as in those primitive years. Several of these forged books are frequently cited and applied in defense of Xianity by the most eminent fathers of the same ages, as true and genuine pieces.”

Faustus, a 5th century Bishop wrote: “Many things have been inserted by our ancestors into the speeches of our L-rd which, though put forth under His name, do not agree with his faith; especially since, as already has been proven – these things were written not by the Christ, nor by His apostles, but a long while after their deaths, by I know not what sort of people, not agreeing with themselves, who made up their tale of reports and opinions merely, and yet, fathering the whole upon the names of the apostles of the L-rd or on those who were supposed to follow the Apostles, they maliciously pretended that they had written their lies and conceits according to them.”

Historical records such as those quoted above, as well as many others, provoked the following evaluation from Dr. I. Hooykaas, a 19th century Protestant Pastor in Holland to write: “Not one of these five books (four Gospels and Acts) was really written by the person whose name it bears, and they are all of more recent date than the heading would lead us to suppose.”

This problem is illustrated in Luke's Gospel in the following way.

Quote:
And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up; and as was his custom, he entered the synagogue on the Sabbath, and stood up to read. And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. And he opened the book, and found the place where it was written, “The Spirit of the L-rd is upon me, because he anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives, and recovery of sight to the blind, to set free those who are downtrodden, To proclaim the favorable year of the L-rd. “And he closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant, and sat down,' and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed upon him. And he began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”
Luke 4:16-21

Let's follow our policy of checking the prophecy quoted.
Quote:
The Spirit of the L-rd G-d is upon me, because the L-rd has anointed me to bring good news to
the afflicted,' He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to captives, and freedom to prisoners; To proclaim the favorable year of the L-rd, and the day of vengeance of our G-d,' to comfort all who mourn, To grant those who mourn in Zion, giving them a garland instead of ashes, the oil of gladness instead of mourning, the mantle of praise instead of a spirit of fainting. So they will be called oaks of righteousness, the planting of the L-rd, that He may be glorified
Isaiah 61:1-3

Wait a minute….did you notice that something is missing in Isaiah that is included in Luke? '…recovery of sight to the blind…' Isaiah says nothing about that but the phrase about healing the blind is found in the Septuagint version of Isaiah though it is not in the Hebrew. Was it inserted to validate the healing miracles attributed to J* in the gospels?

Even more curiously, since that phrase is not in the Hebrew scriptures, was J* reading from a Greek scroll in Nazareth??? In the synagogue??? I strongly doubt it!!!!

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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 09 2007,15:23)

Cubes, I believe you are sincere. I dont believe you are 100% sure of your belief. I think you may have trouble sleeping at night. I hope not, and I hope you do not lean further left to being Unitarian. For you will need to buy a lot of white out for the many scriptures that will have to be tossed or misinterpreted. Blessings!

Hi WJ,
I hope to respond to the other aspects of this post later, but I thought to address this, to simply say:

Yes I am sincere.
No I have no trouble sleeping at night because the Lord God desires truth in the innermost parts and calls us to love one another, and I try to keep my life simple on those terms as I seek and worship him.  

I have also from early on submitted to the direction of God's word.  What I mean by this is that I don't want to find myself struggling w/ GOD so have trained my heart to yield when his truth is presented, rather than hold on to my own ideologies.
If I had a dime for everytime the church went after a new and strange doctrine… So I've had to rely on Jesus' example, and say, “it is written…”   that I might be led by his spirit and stay on track… and so far so good.  Think of the trouble even King David got himself into when he tried to move the Ark of God without first consulting the scriptures?!  And if any one had the spirit, King David did.  So I rest my case there.

My belief that God is the Father and that Jesus is his son, has only strengthened since posting on HN.  Not that I had any doubts but still, you know, moving from strength to strength and from glory to glory.

Yet, until I came here, I just took for granted that Jesus is the son of GOD.  It never occurred to me to wonder whether he was 100% human, actually conceived with the egg of a human woman, was placed wholly in the womb, etc until these discussions, and what either position (dual nature vs. 100% man) gives rise to.

I am still in the process of discovering, learning and growing in my faith, following where the trail of scripture leads.  

It is true also that when it comes to new concepts in doctrine, I'd like to compare things to the written words of the prophets.  Paul said he preached nothing different than what was foretold by them for which he was being persecuted; Jesus said the prophets and Psalms have spoken of him… I am trying to get to know him afresh or to be reminded again of some forgotten things from that point of view, and if needed, make needed correction where I've erred….

Hope that helps to clarify my position.

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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 09 2007,11:58)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 09 2007,06:50) Quote (Cubes @ May 09 2007,06:30) Thank you, t8. Hi All, I'd like us to consider something that AP brought up regarding the LXX manuscript (Greek OT) which I was not aware of.  Apparently, there is a Hebrew manuscript that reads Psalm 102 differently, from the LXX.   It would appear that the KJV Hebrew 1:10f text is influenced by the LXX version of Psalm 102, leading to the Trinitarian stance… which I also for a time subscribed to as best as I could make of that scripture.     Trouble is that the KJV which I have, and the one at blb.org which I usually cite from, does not include the details of Ps 102:23f which the LXX claims. So now we see in part where the confusion over the ambiguity of Heb 1:10f lies:  two different citation and views of the same Psalm. My question at this point is why this difference, and how do we determine which manuscript is more reliable? On the one hand, it is reassuring to think that the apostles must have gotten their “all things were created by/through him [Jesus]” from somewhere, and on the other hand, two different manuscripts is a problem! Here is my current stance: I understand the Trinitarian position better and so empathize even more, but the version of the first covenant (KJV) that I have and read, abundantly show that YHWH alone was the creator of the existing universe, and that YHWH is the GOD and Father of Christ Jesus.  Thus, from that position, AP's view that the creation in question must refer to the coming age, cannot be totally ruled out.  We know the heavens and earth shall be renewed anyway and that Jesus would be Lord of everything excepting the Father, so this is not too strange an idea.  The strange idea is about the real creator of the current universe.  I'm going through the Psalms now and can tell you that Messiah is so far, at Ps 40, not yet YHWH.  But here's an interesting thing I found at Psalm 33: Psa 33:6   By the word of YHWH were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.   Psa 33:7   He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses.   No question, YHWH created all things by/through his word, the breath of his mouth!  And his breath no doubt has the power of his holy spirit to perform whatsover he desires!  Now the word became flesh or was made flesh and dwelt among us.  It doesn't say that the Word Spoke or that the word breathed by its own mouth.  Rather, YHWH's word and the breath of his mouth. Cubes I think a close study of the NT passages referring to Yeshua being the one by/through whom all things are created will show that the Apostles were clearly not speaking of the world to come. And if they were, we would still have a problem because the scriptures says “ALL things” were created by him and for him”. Since YHWH takes claim that he is the only creator, then you would have YHWH making himself a liar by using the Son in the future world to create it. I am sorry to see Cubes that you are leaning further to the left with the Unitarians and the Arius doctrines. Cubes BTW I left out part of the verse that is really unambiguous. Jn 1:3 All things were *made by him*; and *without him* was not *any thing made that was made*. Jn 1:10 He was in the world, and *the world was made by him*, and the world knew him not. Its a far stretch to say that John 1:1-3 and Jn 1:10 is the future heavens and earth.

Hi WJ,

I agree. Without the word, nothing was made that was made.

1. Either way, the Word accomplished what was commanded and desired by the speaker, so the speaker, IMO, has ownership both of his word and of his creation.

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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 07 2007,20:56)

Quote Thanks WJ & CB, I first considered Heb 1:10-13 as applying to Jesus sometime in 2005 I think, when Is presented it to me…I read Ps 102 and the leap I could make was that 102:24b MUST be YHWH speaking reassuringly to his Son who in the same verse called on his GOD, saying, “O my God, Do not take me away in the midst of my days…”  Everytime I would go over those same verses, they would slow me down like a yellow cautionary light or a speed bump when driving, I'd consider it and move along regarding it to seem to say Christ laid the foundations of the world.  But again, it conflicted with much and didn't ADD up.  I just accepted it as a portion of scripture being difficult to understand either due to translation, or being “sealed.”  What was even more disturbing is that it did not harmonize or synch with the rest of Hebrews concerning Messiah, whom Hebrews portrays as the son of God, Lamb of God, and Highpriest of God, and NOT as God.  But as I said, I was willing to go along for the bumpy ride having nothing to add given my own limited understanding, which I declared in my first response here I believe. Cubes I am sorry you were swayed in the direction of the Arains. The truth shines brightly that the Lord Jesus the Monogenes (Unique) Son of God was/is God in the flesh, the Lord from heaven. BTW. What is your take on John 1:1 and Jn 20:28. Blessings.

Hi WJ,

John 1:1  I shared w/ you sometime ago.
I've felt that if Jesus is the Word being spoken of in John 1:1 (as I've up until now believed), then the JW's are right, in that he is ANOTHER person apart from GOD, so I would say, “and the word was a God.”  I would cite Hebrews 1:8-9 to show that there is a God and the GOD of that GOD.  Two entities.

If this isn't so, then I would subscribe to the Biblical Unitarian position which says that the word was not a personality until Bethlehem, but that GOD chose then to acknowledge all that has been and shall be in his son.  I've always told Isaiah that I personally have no particular stance on when Jesus came into existence:  One thing I know is that he is not the Immortal Invisible Living God, and the second thing is that I accept him to be who and  whatsover GOD declares him to be.   I was introduced only to Messiah, the son of God.  I don't know anything about any prior existence he might have had.  

2.  Jesus as a humble man said of his own Father, at times, “Lord” and at times, “my God.”  Is he not greater than Thomas and his testimony true?

So if Jesus is Thomas' Lord and God, then applying the same rule, YHWH is Jesus' Lord and GOD as he said so himself.

God bless!

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Thank you, t8.

Hi All,

I'd like us to consider something that AP brought up regarding the LXX manuscript (Greek OT) which I was not aware of. Apparently, there is a Hebrew manuscript that reads Psalm 102 differently, from the LXX.

It would appear that the KJV Hebrew 1:10f text is influenced by the LXX version of Psalm 102, leading to the Trinitarian stance… which I also for a time subscribed to as best as I could make of that scripture.

Trouble is that the KJV which I have, and the one at blb.org which I usually cite from, does not include the details of Ps 102:23f which the LXX claims.

So now we see in part where the confusion over the ambiguity of Heb 1:10f lies: two different citation and views of the same Psalm.

My question at this point is why this difference, and how do we determine which manuscript is more reliable?

On the one hand, it is reassuring to think that the apostles must have gotten their “all things were created by/through him [Jesus]” from somewhere, and on the other hand, two different manuscripts is a problem!

Here is my current stance:
I understand the Trinitarian position better and so empathize even more, but the version of the first covenant (KJV) that I have and read, abundantly show that YHWH alone was the creator of the existing universe, and that YHWH is the GOD and Father of Christ Jesus. Thus, from that position, AP's view that the creation in question must refer to the coming age, cannot be totally ruled out. We know the heavens and earth shall be renewed anyway and that Jesus would be Lord of everything excepting the Father, so this is not too strange an idea. The strange idea is about the real creator of the current universe. I'm going through the Psalms now and can tell you that Messiah is so far, at Ps 40, not yet YHWH. But here's an interesting thing I found at Psalm 33:

Psa 33:6 By the word of YHWH were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
Psa 33:7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses.

No question, YHWH created all things by/through his word, the breath of his mouth! And his breath no doubt has the power of his holy spirit to perform whatsover he desires! Now the word became flesh or was made flesh and dwelt among us. It doesn't say that the Word Spoke or that the word breathed by its own mouth. Rather, YHWH's word and the breath of his mouth.

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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 06 2007,22:17)

Quote (Cubes @ May 06 2007,04:37) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2007,08:54) Quote (Cubes @ May 03 2007,02:06) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 01 2007,16:46) Quote (Cubes @ May 01 2007,10:44) WJ, (from topic/thread: Inference page 13), You brought this up so I thought to address it here. Let me first say that I am not entirely sure who the speaker is, however, on the assumption that it is the Father speaking to the son, I would say that Hebrews 1:10 can NOT mean to equate Lord w/ YHWH [LORD], as this violates Psalm 102 itself and so one must again consider that the law came by Moses as truth and grace came by Jesus (John 1) cannot mean that they each created their respective covenants, and likewise, that Yeshua is the creator but rather as various scriptures attest, GOD wrought the creation and our salvation THROUGH him. Here's why:   There is a petitioner entreating YHWH GOD in Psalm 102:1-24a (if not throughout to vs 28): Ps 102:1 Hear my prayer, O YHWH, and let my cry come unto thee. The petitioner refers to himself w/ pronouns I/My/Me from vs. 1-24b while at the same time referring to YHWH as YHWH, GOD, Thy, Thee, Thou (KJV) thru vs 24b, and POSSIBLY thru to vs 28. Vs. 24b-28 uses pronouns Thy, Thee, Thou, them, they,  and at this point, we are not sure who is intended by them, that is, who is saying what to whom.  You say that Jesus is being spoken to and this proves he is YHWH. If YHWH is responding to the petitioner (as it appears he is), then the petitioner has now become he who is referred to in vs 24b-28 as “thy, thou, thee” in these verses.  However, once you take this position, you must ABANDON the position that the petitioner is YHWH. Reason being that: 1) One was identified as YHWH and GOD in the text.  It is he who was being petitioned. 2) The suppliant at no time was identified as YHWH or an equal or the same substance as YHWH. 3)  It is written, O Trinitarian:  Hbr 7:7  And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better. The greater of the two is YHWH GOD because it is to him, the petitioner already declared his position of weakness throughout vs 1-24a. If indeed Hebrews 1:10 means to let us understand that Jesus is the subject in those verses, I can receive it in light of Isaiah 9:6 and still, doesn't make Jesus YHWH or equal to YHWH.   Now the other position has been well defended by t8's first post, in that in Ps 102, it could mean that the speaker entreated and praised YHWH throughout.  In this case, the petitioner remains the same and GOD remains the same, and we don't have a response being given, in addition to what t8 already said.  These are the scenarios that I see. Cubes So we disagree. The writer of the book of Hebrews in chapter 1 is all about exalting Yeshua as it plainly shows. Vrs 8 and 9 speaks of the Father calling Yeshua, God, and vrs 9 anointing him above his fellows, and the flow goes right into vrs 10, And the writer continues with… “*And, Thou, Lord*, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:” Then the writer continues with verse 13 Speaking of the Son. The word “And” links verses 8,9 and 10,11,12. Its evident that the writer of the book of Hebrew in Chapter 1, throughout the whole chapter he is quoting Hebrew text and ascribing them to Yeshua. Its plain as the nose on my face that the writer in the context is speaking of Yeshua in vrs 10. Again the key word that links the verses is “AND”, all of the major translations bear this out. So the truth shines bright. While it is hard for many to recieve. Yeshua is YHWH, and the creator. Blessings WJ, a.  Either Heb 1:10's “Lord” is not YHWH (given that the suppliant was never shown to be YHWH in Ps 102), but “Master” referring to Christ in the capacity of one whom the worlds were created through as stated earlier in Heb 1:2 or b.  It means YHWH (because YHWH remained YHWH consistently through Ps 102), referring exclusively to the Father only by and from whom are all things.   Personally, I believe that your position that Jesus IS YHWH is without scriptural witness, whereas choice “a” has witness as relates to YHWH speaking creation into being (the WORD which was made flesh), and choice “b” has abundant witness throughout scripture. So there.  It's not what I am saying: it's what is written. Regarding this second debate you brought up, I cannot visit it now but hope to soon, as God gives insight. Cubes You dont get it do you? This is exactly what the writer is trying to convey is that Yeshau is YHWH. You are blatantly misinterpreting Heb 1:10 when the flow of the context is speaking of Yeshua. “and” the Lord… But if we are to take your position that David may be speaking of Yeshua as master then you also have a contradiction because it says… Pss 102 I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations. 25 *Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. There is no median spoken of here. This is a solo declaration that by his hands he laid the foundations of the earth! And if David is meaning Yeshua is just a master and the creator here, then you have a contradiction. Isa 45: 11 Thus saith the *LORD ,(YHWH)* the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and *concerning the work of my hands* command ye me. 12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: *I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens*, and all their host have I commanded. Either way to harmonize the scriptures Yeshua has to be YHWH in the flesh. And as far as Yeshua being YHWH, maybe you can give us your thoughts on Zech Ch 12 and 14. And also I would like to see your comment on Is 1:18 proof text #2. https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1311   Hello WJ, Where do you even begin to establish that C hrist is YHWH in Ps 102?  What is much more apparent is that Christ's life for the 33 years on earth so much more closely identifies w/ our own lives in terms of his suffering.   Here is Psalm 102. Someone less than YHWH addresses his/her needs to YHWH.  Who is this person/petitioner? Petitioner would also seem to be the role of a highpriest, who ever lives to advocate and make intercession for us.  The prayer scene in the Garden of Gethsame also comes to mind.  This person is praying for himself, for zion, for all godly generations. Whoever he is, he knows he is NOT YHWH because he is not praying TO himself.  Do you pray TO yourself?  You may talk to yourself but surely not pray to yourself. Jesus prayed TO YHWH.  Show us where YHWH prayed to himself or to anyone? Vs 1-11, the petitioner is telling YHWH about his PERSONAL troubles in a manner reminiscent of other messianic psalms like Ps 22, 40.   Psa 102:1   PSALM 102 A Prayer of the afflicted, when he is overwhelmed and pours out his complaint before the LORD. HEAR my prayer, O LORD, And let my cry come to You. Psa 102:2   Do not hide Your face from me in the day of my trouble; Incline Your ear to me; In the day that I call, answer me speedily. Psa 102:3   For my days are consumed like smoke, And my bones are burned like a hearth. Psa 102:4   My heart is stricken and withered like grass, So that I forget to eat my bread. Psa 102:5   Because of the sound of my groaning My bones cling to my skin. Psa 102:6   I am like a pelican of the wilderness; I am like an owl of the desert. Psa 102:7   I lie awake, And am like a sparrow alone on the housetop. Psa 102:8   My enemies reproach me all day long; Those who deride me swear an oath against me. Psa 102:9   For I have eaten ashes like bread, And mingled my drink with weeping, Psa 102:10   Because of Your indignation and Your wrath; For You have lifted me up and cast me away. Psa 102:11   My days are like a shadow that lengthens, And I wither away like grass. vs 12-20f – Here, the petitioner praises YHWH and advocates for Zion and YHWH's people, in hope.  Eternal YHWH will have mercy on Zion, a place in which YHWH's servants delight… (Luke 1:69f); He shall answer the prayer of his people (Miriam, Hannah and Mary's songs); Vs. 20 – Please hear Jesus say how the spirit of YHWH anointed him to preach good news, to set captives free, etc.  Luke 4:17f, Is 61.  Note that if Jesus is the One GOD YHWH, then ANOTHER anointed him… he did not anoint himself, and it doesn't say “my father anointed me,” in fact, Hebrews 1:8f says that HIS GOD and [the begetter] anointed him w/ the oil of gladness….  I cannot think of any scripture where anyone anoints YHWH! On  the contrary.   So the Petitioner praises and hopes in YHWH towards Zion, even for generations to come. Psa 102:12   But You, O LORD, shall endure forever, And the remembrance of Your name to all generations. Psa 102:13   You will arise and have mercy on Zion; For the time to favor her, Yes, the set time, has come. Psa 102:14   For Your servants take pleasure in her stones, And show favor to her dust. Psa 102:15   So the nations shall fear the name of the LORD, And all the kings of the earth Your glory. Psa 102:16   For the LORD shall build up Zion; He shall appear in His glory. Psa 102:17   He shall regard the prayer of the destitute, And shall not despise their prayer. Psa 102:18   This will be written for the generation to come, That a people yet to be created may praise the LORD. Psa 102:19   For He looked down from the height of His sanctuary; From heaven the LORD viewed the earth, Psa 102:20   To hear the groaning of the prisoner, To release those appointed to death,   Psa 102:21   To declare the name of the LORD in Zion, And His praise in Jerusalem, Psa 102:22   When the peoples are gathered together, And the kingdoms, to serve the LORD. vs. 23-24a – The petitioner speaks of his personal plight and anguish once again as in vs 1-11.  Again, it reveberates messianic verses about the suffering servant. In vs 24b, as in vs. 12-20, IT APPEARS the same petitioner begins to once again focus on who YHWH is, praising him and confessing him as maker and Father; and so it could be viewed as such which makes much more sense to me now actually. OR that at this point, YHWH decided to respond to the petioner and uttered the pronouncements of vs. 24b-28 concerning him. If so, this would not only confirm the petitioner as the suffering Messiah (which can be done outside of this Psalm, mind you), but would at least seem to then corrolate the Messiah w/ the laying of the foundations of the earth, and SO we could possibly then say that messiah laid the foundations of the world as GOD permitted.   If not, then you have no case at all so far.  Your best bet for your position DEMANDS that you acknowledge Christ as the petitioner in Ps 102 because the things said ABOUT the Petitioner are closely identified w/ Christ and not w/ YHWH. *Also the things said about YHWH are identified w/ Christ only as conferred upon him BY YHWH, e.g. he was sent to save the world, he was appointed to be a highpriest… he didn't take things upon himself and authority was GIVEN to him.   Once that is done, then you have to interpret the verses in question alongside the verses that say things were created THROUGH the word, Jesus, (Heb 1:2, Col 1:15f) as those are equally scripture.  You can't make a case for changing the persona of the ALMIGHTY to another using “and” as you suggest, not in the face of such overwhelming data proclaimng GOD as the Father of us all.       Psa 102:23   He weakened my strength in the way; He shortened my days. Psa 102:24   I said, “O my God, Do not take me away in the midst of my days; Your years are throughout all generations. Psa 102:25   Of old You laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. Psa 102:26   They will perish, but You will endure; Yes, they will all grow old like a garment; Like a cloak You will change them, And they will be changed. Psa 102:27   But You are the same, And Your years will have no end. Psa 102:28   The children of Your servants will continue, And their descendants will be established before You.” If you say that YHWH in this Psalm is Christ, then explain why Christ was anointed BY YHWH and is called his anointed? (why it doesn't say he anointed himself). Why was it, Christ experienced those messianic sufferings even unto death with his brethren.  And it does not say, YHWH suffered them. How YHWH died (and please don't bring up the modalists here… because if Christ is YHWH, then YHWH died). etc. Why do you suppose Paul cited Romans 8:36 if Jesus IS YHWH? (Ps 44, 40 etc) Rom 8:32   He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? Rom 8:33   Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Rom 8:34   Who is he who condemns? IT IS CHRIST WHO DIED, and furthermore IS ALSO RISEN, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. Rom 8:35   Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Rom 8:36   As it is written: “For Your sake we are killed all day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”[fn2] Pardon me for the long post.  I didn't want to break up Ps 102. Will check in again when I can. One God and Father of all, YHWH, bro. One only begotten son and Messiah, the Lord of all, C hrist Jesus. The two are not the same, GOD is greater indeed.   Cubes Context. Its that simple. Believe what you want, you have no proof. The flow of Hebrews 1:8,9,10,11,12 is is speaking of Yeshua. The writer ascribes Pss 102 to Yeshua, who is the creator. Pss 102, David is speaking of the creator YHWH. Simple. You see it your way, and in my opinion its wrong. Unbelievers, hear the word of the Lord! Jesus is the Lord/YHWH from heaven. John 1:1, Hebrews 1:8, John 20:28, 1 Cor 15:47

Thanks WJ & CB,

I first considered Heb 1:10-13 as applying to Jesus sometime in 2005 I think, when Is presented it to me…I read Ps 102 and the leap I could make was that 102:24b MUST be YHWH speaking reassuringly to his Son who in the same verse called on his GOD, saying, “O my God, Do not take me away in the midst of my days…”  Everytime I would go over those same verses, they would slow me down like a yellow cautionary light or a speed bump when driving, I'd consider it and move along regarding it to seem to say Christ laid the foundations of the world.  But again, it conflicted with much and didn't ADD up.  I just accepted it as a portion of scripture being difficult to understand either due to translation, or being “sealed.”  What was even more disturbing is that it did not harmonize or synch with the rest of Hebrews concerning Messiah, whom Hebrews portrays as the son of God, Lamb of God, and Highpriest of God, and NOT as God.  But as I said, I was willing to go along for the bumpy ride having nothing to add given my own limited understanding, which I declared in my first response here I believe.

The problem was that, using Ps 102 and Heb 1:10f was as navigating in a tunnel, trying to find one's bearings without benefit of any landmarks, suspending the landmarks that have been fully established beforehand: that YHWH created the worlds and that he is the GOD and Father of Christ so that Christ is NOT YHWH, his own Father.  
Reinventing the wheel, this so-called, three-personed YHWH group!
BIG MISTAKE.

Scripture interprets scripture.  PERIOD.  

All scripture points to YHWH as creator of the world.
All scripture points to the fact that CHRIST, the son of GOD, is NOT YHWH.  

Quit dealing in the tunnel vision and move into the open space of scripture, consider the ancient landmarks and navigational marks that GOD sovereignly placed in his scripture, and believe.  

It is true therefore, in Heb 1:10 that “You, o Lord…” refers to “You, O YHWH…” and not to, You O Christ since YHWH did NOT speak in that Psalm. 
The Writer of Hebrews was not and could not have said otherwise unless by “PRIVATE interpretation,” which we already know is not permitted to anyone.  We ought to be able to follow their footsteps and line of reasoning and see where they draw their understanding and conclusions…. and thanks be to GOD, the trail lives on! We know that GOD is no respector of persons, just as Peter said in Acts 10 or 11 regarding the Holy Spirit's baptism of the lowly gentiles.  He is faithful to all who seek him w/ the whole heart and deals truthfully with us so we can be confident.

This is scripture's call.  It is consistent with all scripture thus far and the speed bump is gone and harmony is restored on Heb 1, at least for me.

Brothers and sisters, scripture CANNOT be Broken.  If Christ be YHWH in Psalm 102:24, then stick w/ Christ through the rest of the Psalms wherever YHWH is mentioned and see how quickly and thoroughly scripture is violated.

Aaah, but I almost overlook the old Trinity patch:  The one that says they are all YHWH.  And yet, its defenders cannot tell me whether YHWH then died, IF their TRINITY is indeed one, when it is written that YHWH is ONE and Immortal.

OR

Whether YHWH was born by Mary, IF their Trinity is indeed one YHWH, when it is written YHWH GOD is NOT a man!  

You who have ears to hear, quickly get off board and come to the safety of the GOD who is the GOD and Father of Christ Jesus.  The Trinity vessel is sunk but GOD understanding our predicament, has been merciful and gives you time to get off from the false belief that GOD is other than he says he is.  Acts 17.

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According to Psalm 22, a prophetic messianic Psalm concerning Yeshua:
the messiah is clearly NOT YHWH
and YHWH is NOT the messiah. Why then do the rules change w/ Psalm 102?

Psalm 22

#Psa 22:1 PSALM 22
To the Chief Musician. Set to “The Deer of the Dawn.”#[fn1] A Psalm of David.
MY God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?
Why are You so far from helping Me,
And from the words of My groaning?
#Psa 22:2 O My God, I cry in the daytime, but You do not hear;
And in the night season, and am not silent.
#Psa 22:3 But You are holy,
Enthroned in the praises of Israel.
#Psa 22:4 Our fathers trusted in You;
They trusted, and You delivered them.
#Psa 22:5 They cried to You, and were delivered;
They trusted in You, and were not ashamed.
#Psa 22:6 But I am a worm, and no man;
A reproach of men, and despised by the people.
#Psa 22:7 All those who see Me ridicule Me;
They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
#Psa 22:8 “He trusted#[fn2] in YHWH, let Him rescue Him;
Let Him deliver Him, since He delights in Him!”
#Psa 22:9 But You are He who took Me out of the womb;
You made Me trust while on My mother's breasts.
#Psa 22:10 I was cast upon You from birth.
From My mother's womb
You have been My God.
#Psa 22:11 Be not far from Me,
For trouble is near;
For there is none to help.
#Psa 22:12 Many bulls have surrounded Me;
Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled Me.
#Psa 22:13 They gape at Me with their mouths,
Like a raging and roaring lion.
#Psa 22:14 I am poured out like water,
And all My bones are out of joint;
My heart is like wax;
It has melted within Me.
#Psa 22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
And My tongue clings to My jaws;
You have brought Me to the dust of death.
#Psa 22:16 For dogs have surrounded Me;
The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me.
They pierced#[fn3] My hands and My feet;
#Psa 22:17 I can count all My bones.
They look and stare at Me.
#Psa 22:18 They divide My garments among them,
And for My clothing they cast lots.
#Psa 22:19 But You, O YHWH, do not be far from Me;
O My Strength, hasten to help Me!
#Psa 22:20 Deliver Me from the sword,
My precious life from the power of the dog.
#Psa 22:21 Save Me from the lion's mouth
And from the horns of the wild oxen!
You have answered Me.
#Psa 22:22 I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will praise You.
#Psa 22:23 You who fear YHWH, praise Him!
All you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him,
And fear Him, all you offspring of Israel!
#Psa 22:24 For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;
Nor has He hidden His face from Him;
But when He cried to Him, He heard.
#Psa 22:25 My praise shall be of You in the great assembly;
I will pay My vows before those who fear Him.
#Psa 22:26 The poor shall eat and be satisfied;
Those who seek Him will praise YHWH.
Let your heart live forever!
#Psa 22:27 All the ends of the world
Shall remember and turn to YHWH,
And all the families of the nations
Shall worship before You.#[fn4]
#Psa 22:28 For the kingdom is YHWH‘s,
And He rules over the nations.
#Psa 22:29 All the prosperous of the earth
Shall eat and worship;
All those who go down to the dust
Shall bow before Him,
Even he who cannot keep himself alive.
#Psa 22:30 A posterity shall serve Him.
It will be recounted of the Lord to the next generation,
#Psa 22:31 They will come and declare His righteousness to a people who will be born,
That He has done this.

——

Act 17:2 Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and demonstrating that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus whom I preach to you is the Christ.”

Luke 24:6 He is not here, but is risen! Remember how He spoke to you when He was still in Galilee, 7 saying, 'The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.'”

25 Then He said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?” 27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.

44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” 45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.
46 Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, [fn8] and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. …”

Therefore, I agree without reservation that scripture is by no private interpretation; and that the various scriptures show that Hebrews 1:10f refers to the Father and not to Yeshua. Scripture is consistent, Messiah is Messiah and YHWH is YHWH.

YHWH's blessings upon his people in Christ Jesus. Amen.

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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2007,08:54)

Quote (Cubes @ May 03 2007,02:06) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 01 2007,16:46) Quote (Cubes @ May 01 2007,10:44) WJ, (from topic/thread: Inference page 13), You brought this up so I thought to address it here. Let me first say that I am not entirely sure who the speaker is, however, on the assumption that it is the Father speaking to the son, I would say that Hebrews 1:10 can NOT mean to equate Lord w/ YHWH [LORD], as this violates Psalm 102 itself and so one must again consider that the law came by Moses as truth and grace came by Jesus (John 1) cannot mean that they each created their respective covenants, and likewise, that Yeshua is the creator but rather as various scriptures attest, GOD wrought the creation and our salvation THROUGH him. Here's why:   There is a petitioner entreating YHWH GOD in Psalm 102:1-24a (if not throughout to vs 28): Ps 102:1 Hear my prayer, O YHWH, and let my cry come unto thee. The petitioner refers to himself w/ pronouns I/My/Me from vs. 1-24b while at the same time referring to YHWH as YHWH, GOD, Thy, Thee, Thou (KJV) thru vs 24b, and POSSIBLY thru to vs 28. Vs. 24b-28 uses pronouns Thy, Thee, Thou, them, they,  and at this point, we are not sure who is intended by them, that is, who is saying what to whom.  You say that Jesus is being spoken to and this proves he is YHWH. If YHWH is responding to the petitioner (as it appears he is), then the petitioner has now become he who is referred to in vs 24b-28 as “thy, thou, thee” in these verses.  However, once you take this position, you must ABANDON the position that the petitioner is YHWH. Reason being that: 1) One was identified as YHWH and GOD in the text.  It is he who was being petitioned. 2) The suppliant at no time was identified as YHWH or an equal or the same substance as YHWH. 3)  It is written, O Trinitarian:  Hbr 7:7  And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better. The greater of the two is YHWH GOD because it is to him, the petitioner already declared his position of weakness throughout vs 1-24a. If indeed Hebrews 1:10 means to let us understand that Jesus is the subject in those verses, I can receive it in light of Isaiah 9:6 and still, doesn't make Jesus YHWH or equal to YHWH.   Now the other position has been well defended by t8's first post, in that in Ps 102, it could mean that the speaker entreated and praised YHWH throughout.  In this case, the petitioner remains the same and GOD remains the same, and we don't have a response being given, in addition to what t8 already said.  These are the scenarios that I see. Cubes So we disagree. The writer of the book of Hebrews in chapter 1 is all about exalting Yeshua as it plainly shows. Vrs 8 and 9 speaks of the Father calling Yeshua, God, and vrs 9 anointing him above his fellows, and the flow goes right into vrs 10, And the writer continues with… “*And, Thou, Lord*, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:” Then the writer continues with verse 13 Speaking of the Son. The word “And” links verses 8,9 and 10,11,12. Its evident that the writer of the book of Hebrew in Chapter 1, throughout the whole chapter he is quoting Hebrew text and ascribing them to Yeshua. Its plain as the nose on my face that the writer in the context is speaking of Yeshua in vrs 10. Again the key word that links the verses is “AND”, all of the major translations bear this out. So the truth shines bright. While it is hard for many to recieve. Yeshua is YHWH, and the creator. Blessings WJ, a.  Either Heb 1:10's “Lord” is not YHWH (given that the suppliant was never shown to be YHWH in Ps 102), but “Master” referring to Christ in the capacity of one whom the worlds were created through as stated earlier in Heb 1:2 or b.  It means YHWH (because YHWH remained YHWH consistently through Ps 102), referring exclusively to the Father only by and from whom are all things.   Personally, I believe that your position that Jesus IS YHWH is without scriptural witness, whereas choice “a” has witness as relates to YHWH speaking creation into being (the WORD which was made flesh), and choice “b” has abundant witness throughout scripture. So there.  It's not what I am saying: it's what is written. Regarding this second debate you brought up, I cannot visit it now but hope to soon, as God gives insight. Cubes You dont get it do you? This is exactly what the writer is trying to convey is that Yeshau is YHWH. You are blatantly misinterpreting Heb 1:10 when the flow of the context is speaking of Yeshua. “and” the Lord… But if we are to take your position that David may be speaking of Yeshua as master then you also have a contradiction because it says… Pss 102 I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations. 25 *Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. There is no median spoken of here. This is a solo declaration that by his hands he laid the foundations of the earth! And if David is meaning Yeshua is just a master and the creator here, then you have a contradiction. Isa 45: 11 Thus saith the *LORD ,(YHWH)* the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and *concerning the work of my hands* command ye me. 12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: *I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens*, and all their host have I commanded. Either way to harmonize the scriptures Yeshua has to be YHWH in the flesh. And as far as Yeshua being YHWH, maybe you can give us your thoughts on Zech Ch 12 and 14. And also I would like to see your comment on Is 1:18 proof text #2. https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1311

Hello WJ,

Where do you even begin to establish that Christ is YHWH in Ps 102?  What is much more apparent is that Christ's life for the 33 years on earth so much more closely identifies w/ our own lives in terms of his suffering.  

Here is Psalm 102.

Someone less than YHWH addresses his/her needs to YHWH.  Who is this person/petitioner?
Petitioner would also seem to be the role of a highpriest, who ever lives to advocate and make intercession for us.  The prayer scene in th
e Garden of Gethsame also comes to mind.  This person is praying for himself, for zion, for all godly generations.

Whoever he is, he knows he is NOT YHWH because he is not praying TO himself.  Do you pray TO yourself?  You may talk to yourself but surely not pray to yourself.
Jesus prayed TO YHWH.  Show us where YHWH prayed to himself or to anyone?

Vs 1-11, the petitioner is telling YHWH about his PERSONAL troubles in a manner reminiscent of other messianic psalms like Ps 22, 40.  

Psa 102:1   PSALM 102
A Prayer of the afflicted, when he is overwhelmed and pours out his complaint before the LORD.
HEAR my prayer, O LORD,
And let my cry come to You.
Psa 102:2   Do not hide Your face from me in the day of my trouble;
Incline Your ear to me;
In the day that I call, answer me speedily.

Psa 102:3   For my days are consumed like smoke,
And my bones are burned like a hearth.
Psa 102:4   My heart is stricken and withered like grass,
So that I forget to eat my bread.
Psa 102:5   Because of the sound of my groaning
My bones cling to my skin.
Psa 102:6   I am like a pelican of the wilderness;
I am like an owl of the desert.
Psa 102:7   I lie awake,
And am like a sparrow alone on the housetop.

Psa 102:8   My enemies reproach me all day long;
Those who deride me swear an oath against me.
Psa 102:9   For I have eaten ashes like bread,
And mingled my drink with weeping,
Psa 102:10   Because of Your indignation and Your wrath;
For You have lifted me up and cast me away.
Psa 102:11   My days are like a shadow that lengthens,
And I wither away like grass.

vs 12-20f – Here, the petitioner praises YHWH and advocates for Zion and YHWH's people, in hope.  Eternal YHWH will have mercy on Zion, a place in which YHWH's servants delight…
(Luke 1:69f); He shall answer the prayer of his people (Miriam, Hannah and Mary's songs);

Vs. 20 – Please hear Jesus say how the spirit of YHWH anointed him to preach good news, to set captives free, etc.  Luke 4:17f, Is 61.  Note that if Jesus is the One GOD YHWH, then ANOTHER anointed him… he did not anoint himself, and it doesn't say “my father anointed me,” in fact, Hebrews 1:8f says that HIS GOD and [the begetter] anointed him w/ the oil of gladness….  I cannot think of any scripture where anyone anoints YHWH! On  the contrary.  

So the Petitioner praises and hopes in YHWH towards Zion, even for generations to come.

Psa 102:12   But You, O LORD, shall endure forever,
And the remembrance of Your name to all generations.
Psa 102:13   You will arise and have mercy on Zion;
For the time to favor her,
Yes, the set time, has come.
Psa 102:14   For Your servants take pleasure in her stones,
And show favor to her dust.
Psa 102:15   So the nations shall fear the name of the LORD,
And all the kings of the earth Your glory.
Psa 102:16   For the LORD shall build up Zion;
He shall appear in His glory.
Psa 102:17   He shall regard the prayer of the destitute,
And shall not despise their prayer.

Psa 102:18   This will be written for the generation to come,
That a people yet to be created may praise the LORD.
Psa 102:19   For He looked down from the height of His sanctuary;
From heaven the LORD viewed the earth,
Psa 102:20   To hear the groaning of the prisoner,
To release those appointed to death,  
Psa 102:21   To declare the name of the LORD in Zion,
And His praise in Jerusalem,
Psa 102:22   When the peoples are gathered together,
And the kingdoms, to serve the LORD.

vs. 23-24a – The petitioner speaks of his personal plight and anguish once again as in vs 1-11.  Again, it reveberates messianic verses about the suffering servant.

In vs 24b, as in vs. 12-20, IT APPEARS the same petitioner begins to once again focus on who YHWH is, praising him and confessing him as maker and Father; and so it could be viewed as such which makes much more sense to me now actually.

OR that at this point, YHWH decided to respond to the petioner and uttered the pronouncements of vs. 24b-28 concerning him.

If so, this would not only confirm the petitioner as the suffering Messiah (which can be done outside of this Psalm, mind you), but would at least seem to then corrolate the Messiah w/ the laying of the foundations of the earth, and SO we could possibly then say that messiah laid the foundations of the world as GOD permitted.  

If not, then you have no case at all so far.  Your best bet for your position DEMANDS that you acknowledge Christ as the petitioner in Ps 102 because the things said ABOUT the Petitioner are closely identified w/ Christ and not w/ YHWH.
*Also the things said about YHWH are identified w/ Christ only as conferred upon him BY YHWH, e.g. he was sent to save the world, he was appointed to be a highpriest… he didn't take things upon himself and authority was GIVEN to him.

Once that is done, then you have to interpret the verses in question alongside the verses that say things were created THROUGH the word, Jesus, (Heb 1:2, Col 1:15f) as those are equally scripture.  You can't make a case for changing the persona of the ALMIGHTY to another using “and” as you suggest, not in the face of such overwhelming data proclaimng GOD as the Father of us all.    

 
Psa 102:23   He weakened my strength in the way;
He shortened my days.
Psa 102:24   I said, “O my God,
Do not take me away in the midst of my days;
Your years are throughout all generations.
Psa 102:25   Of old You laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Psa 102:26   They will perish, but You will endure;
Yes, they will all grow old like a garment;
Like a cloak You will change them,
And they will be changed.
Psa 102:27   But You are the same,
And Your years will have no end.
Psa 102:28   The children of Your servants will continue,
And their descendants will be established before You.”

If you say that YHWH in this Psalm is Christ, then explain why Christ was anointed BY YHWH and is called his anointed? (why it doesn't say he anointed himself).
Why was it, Christ experienced those messianic sufferings even unto death with his brethren.  And it does not say, YHWH suffered them.
How YHWH died (and please don't bring up the modalists here… because if Christ is YHWH, then YHWH died).
etc.

Why do you suppose Paul cited Romans 8:36 if Jesus IS YHWH? (Ps 44, 40 etc)

Rom 8:32   He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33   Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.
Rom 8:34   Who is he who condemns? IT IS CHRIST WHO DIED, and furthermore IS ALSO RISEN, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Rom 8:35   Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36   As it is written:

“For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”[fn2]

Pardon me for the long post.  I didn't want to break up Ps 102.
Will check in again when I can.

One God and Father of all, YHWH, bro.
One only begotten son and Messiah, the Lord of all, Christ Jesus.
The two are not the same, GOD is greater indeed.
 

[Cubes]

WJ,
Thx for your response. I hope to respond during the weekend.
Be well.

[Cubes]

Quote (david @ May 01 2007,19:05)

Hi cubes.  I'm not completely certain what your plan was for this thread, but I imagine it's already fallen apart.  So I'm just going to post “whatever” as most I believe are probably doing.

Hi Dave,

Not a problem. Whatever works best for all.

[Cubes]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 01 2007,16:46)

Quote (Cubes @ May 01 2007,10:44) WJ, (from topic/thread: Inference page 13), You brought this up so I thought to address it here. Let me first say that I am not entirely sure who the speaker is, however, on the assumption that it is the Father speaking to the son, I would say that Hebrews 1:10 can NOT mean to equate Lord w/ YHWH [LORD], as this violates Psalm 102 itself and so one must again consider that the law came by Moses as truth and grace came by Jesus (John 1) cannot mean that they each created their respective covenants, and likewise, that Yeshua is the creator but rather as various scriptures attest, GOD wrought the creation and our salvation THROUGH him. Here's why:   There is a petitioner entreating YHWH GOD in Psalm 102:1-24a (if not throughout to vs 28): Ps 102:1 Hear my prayer, O YHWH, and let my cry come unto thee. The petitioner refers to himself w/ pronouns I/My/Me from vs. 1-24b while at the same time referring to YHWH as YHWH, GOD, Thy, Thee, Thou (KJV) thru vs 24b, and POSSIBLY thru to vs 28. Vs. 24b-28 uses pronouns Thy, Thee, Thou, them, they,  and at this point, we are not sure who is intended by them, that is, who is saying what to whom.  You say that Jesus is being spoken to and this proves he is YHWH. If YHWH is responding to the petitioner (as it appears he is), then the petitioner has now become he who is referred to in vs 24b-28 as “thy, thou, thee” in these verses.  However, once you take this position, you must ABANDON the position that the petitioner is YHWH. Reason being that: 1) One was identified as YHWH and GOD in the text.  It is he who was being petitioned. 2) The suppliant at no time was identified as YHWH or an equal or the same substance as YHWH. 3)  It is written, O Trinitarian:  Hbr 7:7  And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better. The greater of the two is YHWH GOD because it is to him, the petitioner already declared his position of weakness throughout vs 1-24a. If indeed Hebrews 1:10 means to let us understand that Jesus is the subject in those verses, I can receive it in light of Isaiah 9:6 and still, doesn't make Jesus YHWH or equal to YHWH.   Now the other position has been well defended by t8's first post, in that in Ps 102, it could mean that the speaker entreated and praised YHWH throughout.  In this case, the petitioner remains the same and GOD remains the same, and we don't have a response being given, in addition to what t8 already said.  These are the scenarios that I see. Cubes So we disagree. The writer of the book of Hebrews in chapter 1 is all about exalting Yeshua as it plainly shows. Vrs 8 and 9 speaks of the Father calling Yeshua, God, and vrs 9 anointing him above his fellows, and the flow goes right into vrs 10, And the writer continues with… “*And, Thou, Lord*, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:” Then the writer continues with verse 13 Speaking of the Son. The word “And” links verses 8,9 and 10,11,12. Its evident that the writer of the book of Hebrew in Chapter 1, throughout the whole chapter he is quoting Hebrew text and ascribing them to Yeshua. Its plain as the nose on my face that the writer in the context is speaking of Yeshua in vrs 10. Again the key word that links the verses is “AND”, all of the major translations bear this out. So the truth shines bright. While it is hard for many to recieve. Yeshua is YHWH, and the creator.

Blessings WJ,

a. Either Heb 1:10's “Lord” is not YHWH (given that the suppliant was never shown to be YHWH in Ps 102), but “Master” referring to Christ in the capacity of one whom the worlds were created through as stated earlier in Heb 1:2

or

b. It means YHWH (because YHWH remained YHWH consistently through Ps 102), referring exclusively to the Father only by and from whom are all things.

Personally, I believe that your position that Jesus IS YHWH is without scriptural witness, whereas choice “a” has witness as relates to YHWH speaking creation into being (the WORD which was made flesh), and choice “b” has abundant witness throughout scripture.

So there. It's not what I am saying: it's what is written.

Regarding this second debate you brought up, I cannot visit it now but hope to soon, as God gives insight.

[Cubes]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 01 2007,09:18)

So did Yeshau create all things? You bet ya. Party 1 says I am going to build a house. So party 1 has party 2 the contractor build the house. Party 1 says I built a house. Party 1 did build a house “through” the contractor. But by your logic party 2 didnt build the house. So play with words if you want but Yeshua is before all things and by him all things consist. You should check out Is 1:18 take on this in the debate thread. This will answer your comments about YHWH. https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1278

Hi WJ,

My response to the link you posted is on page 7 of said link.

I honor Christ as the Father's chosen to be my Lord, but when push comes to shove, bottomline, the owner of the property is the owner of the property as he lives, and YHWH lives and is not Christ.

[Cubes]

WJ, (from topic/thread: Inference page 13),
You brought this up so I thought to address it here.
Let me first say that I am not entirely sure who the speaker is, however, on the assumption that it is the Father speaking to the son, I would say that Hebrews 1:10 can NOT mean to equate Lord w/ YHWH [LORD], as this violates Psalm 102 itself and so one must again consider that the law came by Moses as truth and grace came by Jesus (John 1) cannot mean that they each created their respective covenants, and likewise, that Yeshua is the creator but rather as various scriptures attest, GOD wrought the creation and our salvation THROUGH him.

Here's why:  
There is a petitioner entreating YHWH GOD in Psalm 102:1-24a (if not throughout to vs 28):

Ps 102:1 Hear my prayer, O YHWH, and let my cry come unto thee.

The petitioner refers to himself w/ pronouns I/My/Me from vs. 1-24b while at the same time referring to YHWH as YHWH, GOD, Thy, Thee, Thou (KJV) thru vs 24b, and POSSIBLY thru to vs 28.

Vs. 24b-28 uses pronouns Thy, Thee, Thou, them, they,  and at this point, we are not sure who is intended by them, that is, who is saying what to whom.  You say that Jesus is being spoken to and this proves he is YHWH.

If YHWH is responding to the petitioner (as it appears he is), then the petitioner has now become he who is referred to in vs 24b-28 as “thy, thou, thee” in these verses.  However, once you take this position, you must ABANDON the position that the petitioner is YHWH.

Reason being that:
1) One was identified as YHWH and GOD in the text.  It is he who was being petitioned.
2) The suppliant at no time was identified as YHWH or an equal or the same substance as YHWH.
3)  It is written, O Trinitarian:  Hbr 7:7  And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.

The greater of the two is YHWH GOD because it is to him, the petitioner already declared his position of weakness throughout vs 1-24a.

If indeed Hebrews 1:10 means to let us understand that Jesus is the subject in those verses, I can receive it in light of Isaiah 9:6 and still, doesn't make Jesus YHWH or equal to YHWH.  

Now the other position has been well defended by t8's first post, in that in Ps 102, it could mean that the speaker entreated and praised YHWH throughout.  In this case, the petitioner remains the same and GOD remains the same, and we don't have a response being given, in addition to what t8 already said.  These are the scenarios that I see.

[Cubes]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 01 2007,12:26)

Quote (Cubes @ May 01 2007,06:13) I hope this thread would be in the format of an Instant Messaging dialogue, where a premise is made, and from then on, the dialogue is PRIMARILY done through scripture answering, interpreting, refuting, correcting or affirming the original premise.  The goal hopefully is to construct a right understanding of scripture using less of our own words.                                                  -0- In asserting the Pemise of the TRINITY DOCTRINE, that Christ is the same substance and being as the Father and so equally GOD, WJ, wrote on page 13 of the Inference topic/thread: Quote Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, *Thy throne, O God*, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Refutation:   Psa 45:7  Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. Exd 7:1 ¶ And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. Psa 82:6  I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High. 1Cr 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 1Cr 8:6  But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him. Cubes There is no more agency! God has come in the flesh. Would you make Moses as an agent of God to be equal to the Word. Do you believe the scriptures or not? Jn 1:1 and Heb 1:8 is unambiguous. There is no example of an Angel of God or a man of God found in the NT scriptures that ascribes the word “Theos” to except the Father and the Son. Please show me one. Concerning the New Testament word “Theos”. 1336 times the word “Theos” is found in the New Testament scriptures. All were translated “God” referring to the Father and Yeshua, except 13 times for “False gods” including satan and the man of sin and man, and eight times Godly, and once Yeshua was quoting the Psalmist which was still under Old covenant law. Agency was still in play. We know Paul used the word to describe the opposite of God, satan. We know Yeshua is true, therefore he is “True Theos”. So unless you resort to “Polytheism” which we know the Apostles were pure Monotheist, then you have two options… 1.You accept what the scrptures say. Or 2.You deny them or twist them to say what you want. I checked them all. Not once out of all 1336 times is there a mention of any Angel of God with the word “Theos” being ascribed to them. *Neither is there any example of the word “Theos” ascribed to a living man or king or lord of the most high *in that day* other than Yeshua*. Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John knew exactly what the word “Theos” meant to him, because in every other place the word is used for Yeshua, he used this word “Theos” when he could have used another? Do you think he would create this kind of confusion by using “Theos” in John 1:1 as well as John 20:28? Why didnt he use “chrematizo, Acts 10:22, Heb 11:7” or “theios, 2 Pet 1:3,4, which by the way is used by Peter for divine nature and power, which many try to force this word to mean that we are equal to Yeshua or the Father in being. Yeshua *is* divine, “Theos”,  not “Theios” which is what we share”, This word is found only these 3 times in scripture. Which describes his nature and not his being. or “theotes, Col 2:9” or “theiotes” Rom 1:20″ Why didnt John use one of these words instead of “Theos” in John 1:1? Why didn't Paul or Peter or Timothy or Titus, or the writer of Hebrews 1:8 use one of the other words? You talk about being consistant with the word “Theos”. It seems to me that being consistant with “Theos” is exactly what over 500 Greek and Hebrew scholars did when they translated  John 1:1. So do you believe the Scriptures and the Apostles or not? Concerning your Unitarian interpretation of 1 Cor 8:6, I paste another previous post… Here is what Paul the Hebrew of the Hebrews a strict monotheistic Jew acknowledged… 1 Cor 8: 4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and *that there is no God but one*. 5 For even *if there are so-called gods* whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, (we know there is only “one Lord, the Father and Yeshua/YHWH). 6 yet *for us there is but one God*, the Father, from whom are all things and we {exist} for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. 7 *However not all men have this knowledge*; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat {food} as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. Let’s break it down. Vrs 4. Paul a strict Monotheist, speaks of Idols as being “no such thing” in the world, and that “there is NO GOD but ONE” Vrs 5. Paul says they are “So called gods”, and many of them “gods and lords. We know there is only “ONE LORD” the Father and Yeshua”. Do you object to that? Vrs 6. Paul declares “Yet for us there is but *ONE GOD*”. If you say Jesus is “A” God and he is your “LORD”, then that means also he is your God. Then in the same breath Paul goes on to say the “ONE GOD” is the Father, from whom are all things “and” the Lord Jesus Christ “by whom are all things” and we exist through Him. If we “by Jesus” exist through him and are Gods children and belong to Jesus or God then Jesus is also God. Can you see that? Vrs 7. Then Paul declares that not all men have this knowledge. Then he goes back to the Idols he was speaking of in Vrs 4. What knowledge do men lack? It’s the knowledge that there are “so called gods” and “idols” that men worship but “for us” there is only *ONE God*, and *ONE LORD*, The Father and Yeshua! The context plainly shows the contrast of other so called “gods and lords” with the Father and Yeshua. Tell me , why would Paul speaking to Corinth who was battling with Polytheism and Paganism mention in the same breath The Father and Lord Jesus sharing the same attributes? He couples them together between scriptures condemning Idol worship and Polytheism. So truly this Jesus is as the scriptures proclaims! He is God in the flesh reconciling the world unto himself He is YHWH, the LORD from heaven! But that is another topic! Blessings!

Less of our own words, brother.

Please come again.

[Cubes]

WJ,
I think it's time we focused on the first covenant to interpret the second covenant:
I like that you brought in the Genesis verse regarding “let us create man in our image…” It's a good place to begin and work our way forward. Please see my new thread: precept upon precept, line upon line…which I hope to create to address some of your points.

[Cubes]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 30 2007,23:24)

Quote (Cubes @ April 29 2007,07:24) Jhn 1:3   All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.   Jhn 1:10   He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. Jhn 1:17   For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.   The laws and commandments would seem to have been the creation of Moses, therefore Moses must be included in the ever expanding Trinity. Cubes Since we know *all things were created by Jesus and without him was not anything created that was made*, and Moses was one of the created. I think its safe to say that Moses is not part of the Godhead. Consider this… Have you compared Eph 4:6 with… Eph 1: Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, (at the Fathers side, not above him nor beneath him), Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath *put all things under his feet*, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, *the fulness of him that filleth all in all*. Notce Yeshau has “All power”. And not only is the Father filling “All in All”, in Eph 4:6, but Yeshau also is.

Greetings WJ,

What I'd hoped my post would do, was cause you to consider whether or not we are UNDERSTANDING as we ought, when it says all things were made BY Jesus.

Because I KNOW that the laws and commandments were not created/made/given by Moses, that he was the messenger of that covenant.  God gave them to him to pass on.

Similarly, even in the opening remarks of Revelation 1, God gave Christ that Revelation to pass on.

If “A” must be amended in Moses' case (given the fact that we've been told it was YHWH GOD who gave him the law to begin with on Sinai), then similarly, “B” concerning Christ must be amended given the same framework… unless we could also say that Moses invented the law.  If so which?  We know he amended the Divorce thing by saying people could write a bill of divorce out of frustration, whereas GOD, Jesus said, made them one in the beginning not to be put asunder.

It therefore cannot mean that grace and truth are the creation of Jesus anymore than the law is the creation of Moses, particularly when we know that all things come from GOD [YHWH].

And when we understand that, then we cannot ignore the first covenant (OT) which tells us that it was YHWH who created all things.  John 1 and other OT verses must therefore be seen in the context that YHWH created everything through Jesus as scripture is by no private interpretation (bearing in mind that YHWH none other but the Father).

That's my first point.

The second addresses Eph 4:6 which you cited:  while I agree w/ your hilights, I do not agree w/ your conclusion.  You seem to overlook the preceding message which says, “Which he WROUGHT in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places….

THAT WAS WHEN he came to be exalted far above all principality, and power, and might, etc.  Notice that these things happened DURING the Roman Empire, in terms of time.  

If his exaltation brings him to sit at the Father's right hand NOW and not above the Father, then we can safely conclude that prior, his glory was as that of any prince, not as exalting as what he currently has, whereby he PLEASED the Father and for this cause, the Father lifted him above all others and gave him power over all.  

In the parable of the prodigal son, BOTH sons were heirs and had glory.  One was more pleasing to his father and so on top of his natural birthright as a firstborn (which he might have lost had he not been pleasing, e.g. Reuben), his excellent spirit led to his father not begrudging him anything and all that the father had was his.  The younger brother came to his senses and was embraced but does not have the preeminence.

To which of the angels did he say these four things?,

Hbr 1:5 ¶ For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee?

And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Hbr 1:6  And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Hbr 1:13  But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?  

He said these things about his son.  So either the word is his son, or is not.

[Cubes]

Jhn 1:3   All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.  
Jhn 1:10   He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Jhn 1:17   For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.  

The laws and commandments would seem to have been the creation of Moses, therefore Moses must be included in the ever expanding Trinity.

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Hi Not3,
Here are links to related threads you might find of interest, in case you haven't yet seen them:

For what it's worth, I believe that we are to pursue peace at every opportunity. However, there's a time for everything under the sun: a time to embrace, and a time to keep from embracing, if you know what I mean.

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….ong+all

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….42;st=0

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WJ,

As I said, we disagree.
May GOD open your understanding to behold his magnificent and glorious presence and to know his beloved son as he would be known. I hope you have a Damascus experience. Amen.

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