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[Corinthian]

…….. For instance, Jesus knew that Satan was taking God's promise to protect Him out of context. He knew that if He tempted God by jumping off the pinnacle of the temple that it would result in SPLAT and that the cleaning crews would have to come and scrape Him off the court. For Jesus to act on what satan said would infer that He first be deceived.

The same is true about satan's offering Him the kingdoms of the world. The kingdoms of the world were not satan's to give. Jesus knew this. So for Jesus to desire to kingship other than by crucifixion implies that He would first be duped.

thinker[/quote]

I “think” ( as opposed to “know for certain”) Satan did have the kingdoms of the earth to offer, just as he does today. Certainly Jesus did not correct Satan on the his idea that he could offer earthly kingdoms to Jesus. Before the fall, dominion of the earth belonged to Adam per God's gift. This dominion was lost to Satan at the fall.

True, all of this is a delegated authority, allowed by God, who is the real one in charge. But Satan has the authority, at least until Jesus returns ( Oh, boy, here we go! LOL!)

I'm also not sure that Jesus would have gone “splat”, any more than he needed to worry about drowning in the Sea of Galilee during the storms. Thus He could nap when every one else was terrified, and could later approach them in another storm as He walked on the water.

[Corinthian]

OOPs, I wish there was an edit function. I meant to say: Good points, Thinker, I mostly agree. By as folks can surmise by my previous post, I am not certain He even wanted to be delivered. And rather that He only wanted His body strengthened to assure that He made it through to the cross and completed carrying out the Father's will, which was also His will. Considering that He and the Father are one(same will), and that He tells His followers to have joy in persecution for His name's sake, and surely He would not ask us to do what He did not do Himself. ( I realize I probably have a minority view on this, and I am not dogmatic about it, and have not always felt this way.)

But I certainly agree with your statement “But IF He had insisted His Father would have listened and you and I would be damned!”! Tankg goodness He did not call for those angels! I am weask, but He is strong!

[Corinthian]

Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 24 2009,03:58)

thethinker said: Quote Explain why Jesus was assured that His Father would have sent twelve legions of angels if He insisted. Seeking replied: Quote Actually, He knew the Father would not send the angels, therefore He would not have insisted.  It was more critical that the scriptures be fulfilled – But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?” Seeking, The first part of your statement is totally wrong. Jesus Himself knew that His Father would have granted Him the twelve legions of angels if He insisted, Quote Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He WILL PROVIDE ME with more than twelve legions of angels? (Matt. 26:53) For you to say that His Father would not send the army is a blatant contradiction of what Jesus knew of His relationship with His Father. Let us not project our insecurities in prayer upon Jesus. You and I may pray hoping and groping because we have sin. But Jesus being sinless had full assurance when He prayed. However, the second part of your statement is the truth. Jesus would not have insisted because He knew that He was sent to fulfill the Scriptures. But IF He had insisted His Father would have listened and you and I would be damned! So let us both be thankful that He denied His legitimate desire to be delivered! There was no sin at all in Jesus' desire to NOT be tortured and mutilated by His enemies. Yet He denied His legitimate desires so you and I could could be saved! thinker

Good points Thinker.

[Corinthian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 23 2009,16:22)

Hi C, Deity? He is the Son of God. He said so-believe him.

Hi Nick,
I do indeed believe Him when He says He is God's Son. Do you believe John when he said the Word was with God AND that the Word(Christ) was God, and that the Word ( Christ) created all things? I do, even if my weak human mind has difficulty grasping it. ( I am asking the above since being a noob, I'm not sure from which angle you are approaching this– I'll catch up soon, time allowing).

The great “I AM”, the God of Moses' fathers, spoke to Moses from the burning Bush.

13 Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?”

14 God said to Moses, “I am who I am . This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' “

15 God also said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.' This is my name forever, the name by which I am to be remembered from generation to generation.[/ QUOTE]

1400 years later, Jesus told the Pharisees

John 8:57-59

57″You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

58″I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.[/ QUOTE]

They knew exactly what Jesus was claiming with those words, so they naturally wanted to stone him for declaring Himself the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, the God who spoke from the burning bush.

John 20:28
Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” [/ QUOTE]

I agree with Thomas' statement here, and with Jesus claims about Himself. He is the Son of Man, the Son of God and He is God, the creator of all things.

Ephesians 3:9
and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things……………………
Col 1:15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created:[/ u] things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. [/ QUOTE]

[Corinthian]

I seem to be having trouble using the quote and bold/underline etc functions.

So, I think it was Martian who said on Feb 6:
“24Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb,?
“I, the LORD, am the maker of all things,?
Stretching out the heavens by Myself?
And spreading out the earth all alone,

( interesting point by YHWH. He says He created everything alone. Leaves that pre-existent Christ out does it not?)”

But would that not be Christ doing the creating, since several NT scriptures, such as John one, say that Christ is the creator? That nothing was made which was not made by the Word, which is Christ?

[Corinthian]

Hello Brothers and Sisters:
Along with part one, an unbelievably vast discussion! So I can only figure someone has already made this point, but any way here is something to consider from a newbie:

John 1:John 1
The Deity of Jesus Christ
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2He was in the beginning with God.

3All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

[Corinthian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 23 2009,14:43)

Hi and welcome C, What do you think he was dying of?

Hi and thanks Nick,
I have no clue, all I have to go on is that Jesus said He was at the point of death— or as Young's literal puts it:”`Exceedingly sorrowful is my soul — unto death; abide ye here, and watch with me.' “. Now I realize this could have possibly been hyperbole to make a point about how bad and weak He was feeling, but then again maybe not.

[Corinthian]

” 37And He took with Him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be grieved and distressed.

38Then He said to them, “My soul is deeply grieved, to the point of death; remain here and keep watch with Me.”

39And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will.”

40And He came to the disciples and found them sleeping, and said to Peter, “So, you men could not keep watch with Me for one hour?

41″Keep watching and praying that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

42He went away again a second time and prayed, saying, “My Father, if this cannot pass away unless I drink it, Your will be done.” “

Sorry to come in late, possibly missing some points already made. But, exactly what was Jesus asking the Father for…….. deliverance from what, exactly? Considering that Jesus previously told His disciples to count it as a blessing if they are persecuted for His name's sake, indeed to receive it with great Joy, then why is Jesus asking the father to deliver Him from suffering? Even if He is willing to go through with it if there is no other way, still it sounds as though He is asking us to do what He did not do Himself.

Or is it possible that He is not asking to be delivered from the cross? But rather delivered from Satan taking His life, so that He can finish the Father's assignment?  “My soul is deeply grieved, to the point of death;”.  Satan tried to kill Him shortly after His birth, tried to get Him to sin during the temptation, tried to have Him stoned to death by the people. Had Satan been successful at any of these, then Jesus would not have gone to the cross, and God's will would have been thwarted, and there would have been no salvation. So here again is Satan in the garden, trying to kill Jesus, even if Satan does not know the effect this would have on God's plan for salvation.

So from His words, it appears Jesus is close to death. Is that the cup He is asking the Father to take from Him, death BEFORE the cross? If so, then surely there is no sin or lack of perfection in that, in asking for the strength to survive for the cross, in order to be able to carry out the Father's will?

Again, sorry if this alternative view, this possibility, has already been pointed out.

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